Pats select Western Kentucky QB Bailey Zappe at 137

[ShaneTrot]

I think BB should be canned because he violated a cardinal sin of team building. He had a QB on a rookie contract and he did not use the cap space to build around him. He also has had a pretty lame offensive coaching staff since Josh left. Obviously, Mac blows but he didn't in 2021. I am guessing if he had a better offensive line and weapons, Mac would be a slightly better than mediocre not a league-worst 2023 QB who was healthy to start the season. Who were the linemen and WRs BB should have picked? That's on BB, he is the one who is getting paid a top-of-the-league coaching/GM salary. The results haven't been there, the team is bereft of talent. When that happens change is necessary. If you run your business based on past results, you deserve what you get.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I think BB should be canned because he violated a cardinal sin of team building. He had a QB on a rookie contract and he did not use the cap space to build around him. He also has had a pretty lame offensive coaching staff since Josh left. Obviously, Mac blows but he didn't in 2021. I am guessing if he had a better offensive line and weapons, Mac would be a slightly better than mediocre not a league-worst 2023 QB who was healthy to start the season. Who were the linemen and WRs BB should have picked? That's on BB, he is the one who is getting paid a top-of-the-league coaching/GM salary. The results haven't been there, the team is bereft of talent. When that happens change is necessary. If you run your business based on past results, you deserve what you get.

This is a good summary for the argument to fire Bill.

 

[Jinhocho]

I think BB should be canned because he violated a cardinal sin of team building. He had a QB on a rookie contract and he did not use the cap space to build around him. He also has had a pretty lame offensive coaching staff since Josh left. Obviously, Mac blows but he didn't in 2021. I am guessing if he had a better offensive line and weapons, Mac would be a slightly better than mediocre not a league-worst 2023 QB who was healthy to start the season. Who were the linemen and WRs BB should have picked? That's on BB, he is the one who is getting paid a top-of-the-league coaching/GM salary. The results haven't been there, the team is bereft of talent. When that happens change is necessary. If you run your business based on past results, you deserve what you get.

This would work out well if Mac were actually that guy or capable of being the guy you discussed. His collapse began in year one, not year two.

The team is also not bereft of talent.

 

[Silverdude2167]

I think BB should be canned because he violated a cardinal sin of team building. He had a QB on a rookie contract and he did not use the cap space to build around him. He also has had a pretty lame offensive coaching staff since Josh left. Obviously, Mac blows but he didn't in 2021. I am guessing if he had a better offensive line and weapons, Mac would be a slightly better than mediocre not a league-worst 2023 QB who was healthy to start the season. Who were the linemen and WRs BB should have picked? That's on BB, he is the one who is getting paid a top-of-the-league coaching/GM salary. The results haven't been there, the team is bereft of talent. When that happens change is necessary. If you run your business based on past results, you deserve what you get.

So who was available that he should have gotten?

He got the best players available in 21 and all I have heard for 2 years is that he paid the wrong people.

So what moves should have been made that he did not make?

 

[tims4wins]

This would work out well if Mac were actually that guy or capable of being the guy you discussed. His collapse began in year one, not year two.

The team is also not bereft of talent.

Please point me to the exact moment of his collapse. Did he play well down the stretch? No, of course not. Post bye he was 106-175 (61.6%) for 1,164 (6.65 YPA), 8 TD, 7 INT, and a 78.9 rating. Obviously, that's bad. But not worst QB in the NFL bad.

He had the one awful game against Buffalo, 14-32 with 2 INT, take out that game and his numbers were 64.3%, 7.13 YPA, 8 TD / 5 INT, 1,019 yards, 89.5 rating. Not setting the world on fire, but hardly collapsing.

 

[tims4wins]

So who was available that he should have gotten?

He got the best players available in 21 and all I have heard for 2 years is that he paid the wrong people.

So what moves should have been made that he did not make?

This all started way before 2021. The free agent bonanza was necessitated due to years of awful drafting.

 

[Silverdude2167]

This all started way before 2021. The free agent bonanza was necessitated due to years of awful drafting.

That was not the posters point. He said the team was not built around a rookie QB.

Also let's not do the drafting conversation again.

 

[DJnVa]

This all started way before 2021. The free agent bonanza was necessitated due to years of awful drafting.

Yes, we had to sign FA because the draft picks weren't worthy of second contracts.

 

[ShaneTrot]

This would work out well if Mac were actually that guy or capable of being the guy you discussed. His collapse began in year one, not year two.

The team is also not bereft of talent.

Do this exercise. Pick the best 11 offensive players and 11 defensive players in the AFC East. How many are Patriots?

 

[rodderick]

This would work out well if Mac were actually that guy or capable of being the guy you discussed. His collapse began in year one, not year two.

The team is also not bereft of talent.

If you take every single starter on the Patriots right now, which player does a fan of any of the other 31 teams covet? Because I think the only two are injured right now (Judon and Gonzalez). Barmore is probably at that point as well, to be fair. Everyone else? A big fat "meh" at best. Especially on offense.

 

[tims4wins]

That was not the posters point. He said the team was not built around a rookie QB.

Also let's not do the drafting conversation again.

You wrote

"So who was available that he should have gotten?

He got the best players available in 21 and all I have heard for 2 years is that he paid the wrong people.

So what moves should have been made that he did not make? "

The point is that by 2021, it was TOO LATE. They couldn't build around Mac like other teams did with rookie QBs because they had to spend a crap ton just to make the roster passable.

 

[Silverdude2167]

You wrote

"So who was available that he should have gotten?

He got the best players available in 21 and all I have heard for 2 years is that he paid the wrong people.

So what moves should have been made that he did not make? "

The point is that by 2021, it was TOO LATE. They couldn't build around Mac like other teams did with rookie QBs because they had to spend a crap ton just to make the roster passable.

I mean they won the SB two years earlier and mortgaged the future to do so. Like I said, the drafting conversation has been had. It wasn't great, but complaining about the team built around Mac in 21 is stupid.

The team was in a position to draft a rookie QB and surround him with talent by having the most cap space (I think) that year.

 

[tims4wins]

I mean they won the SB two years earlier and mortgaged the future to do so. Like I said, the drafting conversation has been had. It wasn't great, but complaining about the team built around Mac in 21 is stupid.

The team was in a position to draft a rookie QB and surround him with talent by having the most cap space (I think) that year.

And somehow they had no cap space in 2022. I'm not sure if they structured the contracts poorly or what, but it was terrible roster management.

And again, yes, they signed the best guys available in 2021... because their backs were to the wall. Kraft has literally said it was a bad approach to have to build the team through free agency, that it wasn't sustainable. The team around Mac in 2021 was fine, I agree. But what led to it being fine was what has caused all of these downstream problems.

 

[Silverdude2167]

And somehow they had no cap space in 2022. I'm not sure if they structured the contracts poorly or what, but it was terrible roster management.

And again, yes, they signed the best guys available in 2021... because their backs were to the wall. Kraft has literally said it was a bad approach to have to build the team through free agency, that it wasn't sustainable. The team around Mac in 2021 was fine, I agree. But what led to it being fine was what has caused all of these downstream problems.

I guess I'm confused as what you are taking issue with.

Could the drafts have been better? Yes, but beyond that what are you unhappy with?

In 20 they had no cap space because of Brady's contract along with others. They had to pay the bill for the past 20 years.

Should they not have spent the cap space in 21 and rolled it to 22?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I think BB should be canned because he violated a cardinal sin of team building. He had a QB on a rookie contract and he did not use the cap space to build around him. He also has had a pretty lame offensive coaching staff since Josh left. Obviously, Mac blows but he didn't in 2021. I am guessing if he had a better offensive line and weapons, Mac would be a slightly better than mediocre not a league-worst 2023 QB who was healthy to start the season. Who were the linemen and WRs BB should have picked? That's on BB, he is the one who is getting paid a top-of-the-league coaching/GM salary. The results haven't been there, the team is bereft of talent. When that happens change is necessary. If you run your business based on past results, you deserve what you get.

I'm going to push back on this.

Mac was one of only 13 rookie QBs to start at least 10 games and make the playoffs. The team was in fact built for Jones to succeed. It's incredibly difficult for rookie QBs to make the playoffs over the long history of the NFL and Mac was able to do it in large part due to the surrounding cast.

The issue was, and always has been, that Mac collapsed beginning after the bye week in his rookie year.

It's on Mac. It's always been on Mac. It always will be on Mac. He got found out by the league and never recovered.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

I'm going to push back on this.

Mac was one of only 13 rookie QBs to start at least 10 games and make the playoffs. The team was in fact built for Jones to succeed. It's incredibly difficult for rookie QBs to make the playoffs over the long history of the NFL and Mac was able to do it in large part due to the surrounding cast.

The issue was, and always has been, that Mac collapsed beginning after the bye week in his rookie year.

It's on Mac. It's always been on Mac. It always will be on Mac. He got found out by the league and never recovered.

I agree with you but it's not mutually exclusive that put the death blow into Mac's career with the disaster Bill put around him.

 

[tims4wins]

I guess I'm confused as what you are taking issue with.

Could the drafts have been better? Yes, but beyond that what are you unhappy with?

In 20 they had no cap space because of Brady's contract along with others. They had to pay the bill for the past 20 years.

Should they not have spent the cap space in 21 and rolled it to 22?

Everything could have been better! The drafts, the free agent signings, the coach hirings - all of it! Which is exactly the point! It hasn't been good for a long time! Which is why I'm ready to move on!

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I agree with you but it's not mutually exclusive that put the death blow into Mac's career with the disaster Bill put around him.

What put the death blow on Mac's career is his inability to handle adversity. His mechanics in that Indy game were beyond bad and he wasn't even being pressured, and had receivers open.

It's on Mac. He can't play. Get a new QB in there and the team will look much, much better. Zappe is terrible himself and yet the team looks better because Zappe at least doesn't immediately fall apart.

 

[tims4wins]

What put the death blow on Mac's career is his inability to handle adversity. His mechanics in that Indy game were beyond bad and he wasn't even being pressured, and had receivers open.

It's on Mac. He can't play. Get a new QB in there and the team will look much, much better. Zappe is terrible himself and yet the team looks better because Zappe at least doesn't immediately fall apart.

While I'm basically 100% with you on Mac, the Meyers drop on the opening drive still haunts me. He catches that, maybe there is a completely alternate universe of success.

Edit: it was the 2nd drive. But I just rewatched the first two drives. Mac looked good! But after the Colts went up 14-0 after the punt block... I have no idea.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

While I'm basically 100% with you on Mac, the Meyers drop on the opening drive still haunts me. He catches that, maybe there is a completely alternate universe of success.

It's the INT at the goal line against Indy that did it. Mac can't play. He had a receiver open for a TD, in a close game where the defense was balling out (and why doesn't anyone talk about the defense as giving the QB some help?) and he flicked it right to the CB while falling backward with no one in his face.

WRs will drop balls. It happens. But what Mac did against Indy CAN'T happen.

 

[jsinger121]

What put the death blow on Mac's career is his inability to handle adversity. His mechanics in that Indy game were beyond bad and he wasn't even being pressured, and had receivers open.

It's on Mac. He can't play. Get a new QB in there and the team will look much, much better. Zappe is terrible himself and yet the team looks better because Zappe at least doesn't immediately fall apart.

The roster is a bottom 5 in the league. Its not going to look that much better with another rookie QB. The roster needs a major overhaul.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

The roster is a bottom 5 in the league. Its not going to look that much better with another rookie QB. The roster needs a major overhaul.

Disagree on all points but we shall see.

 

[tims4wins]

It's the INT at the goal line against Indy that did it. Mac can't play. He had a receiver open for a TD, in a close game where the defense was balling out (and why doesn't anyone talk about the defense as giving the QB some help?) and he flicked it right to the CB while falling backward with no one in his face.

WRs will drop balls. It happens. But what Mac did against Indy CAN'T happen.

That pick was bad, but then he led the Pats to 17 straight points in the 4th, with some really good throws mixed in. The entire game is up on Youtube if you care to watch. It's really quite perplexing. He played his ass off in that 4th quarter. Stepping up in the pocket, zinging it downfield, etc.

Edit: are you talking about the pick this year? No one is debating that was horrendous. The pick by Leonard in the 2021 Colts game was less bad. He just didn't see him and he jumped in front of Henry.

 

[BaseballJones]

The roster is a bottom 5 in the league. Its not going to look that much better with another rookie QB. The roster needs a major overhaul.

Having great draft position this year should definitely help in this regard. Not only does it help in round 1, but in all subsequent rounds, picking in the first few slots is a massive advantage over 7 full rounds given where they usually end up picking.

 

[tims4wins]

To the point about the roster lacking talent:

NBC Boston put out their annual 20 under 25 list. Remember, the Pats have about as many players as the Sox, Bruins, and Celts combined.

The guys on the list are Gonzalez, Barmore, Douglas, Barringer (LOL), and Zappe (LOLOL).

https://www.nbcsportsboston.com/nfl/new-england-patriots/20-under-25-results-christian-gonzalez-demario-douglas-crack-top-five/574493/

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah, the 2021 team is EXACTLY what people asked for basically, they went out and spent top of the market at a number of skill positions, they drafted a RB in the early/middle rounds, they changed the system to try and put training wheels on Mac, and people in the local media and national media were holding it up as an example of how to bring along your rookie QB in comparison to the other guys drafted that year. After 2021 people were talking about whether Mac could make a leap... instead he faceplanted, and people blamed it on coaching (maybe) and dismissed that Zappe looked arguably better in the same offense.... then 2023 happened and people realized... oh, yeah, the QB is just not good enough.

In 2021 the Patriots added 2 of the top 5 WRs in the FA class (Agholor and Bourne) and the guys they didn't get have not been better (Corey Davis, Curtis Samuel and Kenny Golladay), they added the top 2 TEs in the class as well (who ended up not working well together).

Then in 2022 they spent their 1st and 2nd round picks on OL and WR, added another RB they didn't invest heavily in skill players becasue they were paying off the splurge from the previous year.

They missed on some of those guys, they lost talent on O-line, but most importantly.. they missed at QB, which made all the skill players look worse, but the process people ask for now (go get the top skill players in FA) is exactly what they did in 2021.... it just happened that 2021 (and 2022, and 2023) were incredibly weak classes, with no impact players making it to UFA.

 

[johnmd20]

Do this exercise. Pick the best 11 offensive players and 11 defensive players in the AFC East. How many are Patriots?

Man, pick the best 24 offensive players in the East and none are Patriots. If there was an expansion draft, the Pats would not lose a single guy from the offense.

The offense is awful. I don't know what people are looking at. Their best player is Bourne.and he didn't see the field last year because of reasons.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Man, pick the best 24 offensive players in the East and none are Patriots. If there was an expansion draft, the Pats would not lose a single guy from the offense.

The offense is awful. I don't know what people are looking at. Their best player is Bourne.and he didn't see the field last year because of reasons.

Trent Brown would definitely be in the top 24, so likely would Onwenu, they both might be on a 1st team All-AFC East if you fielded 11 on each side (as would a few defensive players).

The skill positions are weak, with a bunch of 2/3 WRs and a good but not elite TE, nobody disputes that

 

[Jinhocho]

Trent Brown would definitely be in the top 24, so likely would Onwenu, they both might be on a 1st team All-AFC East if you fielded 11 on each side (as would a few defensive players).

The skill positions are weak, with a bunch of 2/3 WRs and a good but not elite TE, nobody disputes that

But none of that means they have no talent on offense.

 

[BaseballJones]

So I can't really do this from an offensive line standpoint, but I'll take a crack at an all-AFCE team.

QB - Allen, Buf
RB - Mostert, Mia
WR - Hill, Mia
WR - Waddle, Mia
WR - Diggs, Buf (could go with Wilson of NYJ too)
TE - Henry, NE (yep)
OL - I can't really do this

Edge - Judon, NE
DT - Barmore, NE
DT - Wilkins, Mia (or Williams, NYJ)
Edge - Chubb, Mia
LB - Phillips, Mia
LB - Milano, Buf
CB - Gonzalez, NE (or Ramsey, Mia)
CB - Howard, Mia
CB - Gardner, NYJ
S - Hyde, Buf
S - Whitehead, NYJ

Obviously YMMV on these, and I have no problem with any disagreements on this stuff. But I personally think the Pats could have as many as 4 guys in the starting 22 for the all-AFCE team. At a minimum, you wouldn't be embarrassed in putting Henry, Judon, Barmore, and Gonzalez on that squad.

 

[Cellar-Door]

So I can't really do this from an offensive line standpoint, but I'll take a crack at an all-AFCE team.

QB - Allen, Buf
RB - Mostert, Mia
WR - Hill, Mia
WR - Waddle, Mia
WR - Diggs, Buf (could go with Wilson of NYJ too)
TE - Henry, NE (yep)
OL - I can't really do this

Edge - Judon, NE
DT - Barmore, NE
DT - Wilkins, Mia (or Williams, NYJ)
Edge - Chubb, Mia
LB - Phillips, Mia
LB - Milano, Buf
CB - Gonzalez, NE (or Ramsey, Mia)
CB - Howard, Mia
CB - Gardner, NYJ
S - Hyde, Buf
S - Whitehead, NYJ

Obviously YMMV on these, and I have no problem with any disagreements on this stuff. But I personally think the Pats could have as many as 4 guys in the starting 22 for the all-AFCE team. At a minimum, you wouldn't be embarrassed in putting Henry, Judon, Barmore, and Gonzalez on that squad.

Yeah something like that on offense. Could make the case for Cook at RB I guess, and I personally would put Kincaid at TE.
The interesting comp is the Jets....WR #1 is theirs, QB 1 when Rodgers is healthy...maybe RB1... after that you could make a real case the Patriots have more talent at every position, WR 2, WR3, TE, every line position....

The Patriots don't have no talent on offense, what they don't have is an elite WR/TE/RB. They have a bunch of 2/3 guys, important to have for sure, but too much on each guy's plate with the step up. They have average or slightly above talent at RB and TE, the line has some good players, some average, some below... but line play is heavily impacted by continuity and health.

 

[Jinhocho]

Yeah something like that on offense. Could make the case for Cook at RB I guess, and I personally would put Kincaid at TE.
The interesting comp is the Jets....WR #1 is theirs, QB 1 when Rodgers is healthy...maybe RB1... after that you could make a real case the Patriots have more talent at every position, WR 2, WR3, TE, every line position....

The Patriots don't have no talent on offense, what they don't have is an elite WR/TE/RB. They have a bunch of 2/3 guys, important to have for sure, but too much on each guy's plate with the step up. They have average or slightly above talent at RB and TE, the line has some good players, some average, some below... but line play is heavily impacted by continuity and health.

Agree with all of this. I will add one thing. The pats were built to play bully ball - at least in theory - so i am not sure a true amazing WR1 ever factored in for them. They had the guy to go up and get the ball (Parker), the guy to make the tough catches and some yac (Bourne), the slant guy (JJSS), the speedster (Thornton - I am so tired of this role on the pats), and the promising rookie (Douglas). Until they improve the QB position to make teams pay for trying to stuff the run and short passes, that strategy cannot work.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

That pick was bad, but then he led the Pats to 17 straight points in the 4th, with some really good throws mixed in. The entire game is up on Youtube if you care to watch. It's really quite perplexing. He played his ass off in that 4th quarter. Stepping up in the pocket, zinging it downfield, etc.

Edit: are you talking about the pick this year? No one is debating that was horrendous. The pick by Leonard in the 2021 Colts game was less bad. He just didn't see him and he jumped in front of Henry.

Yes I was talking about the pick this year.

 

[tims4wins]

Yes I was talking about the pick this year.

Agreed, that was the pick that broke him.

But going back to 2021, we keep saying that everything changed after the bye. He didn’t play awesome in that Colts game, but he was still a much better QB than he is today.

 

[Garshaparra]

Agree with all of this. I will add one thing. The pats were built to play bully ball - at least in theory.

If that was the plan, they did a terrible job of it:

- No FB! This is the clearest giveaway that they didn't plan to go this route.

- Too few RBs. Rham and Zeke are fine in their roles, but neither is fast or elusive enough to be 3rd down/change-of-pace. Montgomery was waived initially, averaged just 3 offensive snaps over the first 11 games, and is gone now.

- Good blocking TEs are essential in a bullyball offense. Henry is not a good blocker, but passable, and his receiving skills are good in a bullyball scheme. However, Geisicki is an unbelievably bad blocker, and terrible getting into his route if chipping or getting pushed at the line. Brown is a very good blocker and a sneaky-good receiver, but he was not on the roster until cutdown day, thus couldn't have been in the plans.

- The OL. Bullyball requires either very big pushers, or fast lateral mobility at all line positions. This group does not have either skillset, and never did, from mini camp to last week.

 

[Cellar-Door]

If that was the plan, they did a terrible job of it:

- No FB! This is the clearest giveaway that they didn't plan to go this route.

- Too few RBs. Rham and Zeke are fine in their roles, but neither is fast or elusive enough to be 3rd down/change-of-pace. Montgomery was waived initially, averaged just 3 offensive snaps over the first 11 games, and is gone now.

- Good blocking TEs are essential in a bullyball offense. Henry is not a good blocker, but passable, and his receiving skills are good in a bullyball scheme. However, Geisicki is an unbelievably bad blocker, and terrible getting into his route if chipping or getting pushed at the line. Brown is a very good blocker and a sneaky-good receiver, but he was not on the roster until cutdown day, thus couldn't have been in the plans.

- The OL. Bullyball requires either very big pushers, or fast lateral mobility at all line positions. This group does not have either skillset, and never did, from mini camp to last week.

The line is generally built how Bill built his top rushing lines actually... huge mauler at LT, huge mauler at RG and a big-time athlete at LG who can get out in front.

But I do think they didn't particularly mean to play bully-ball as much as they meant to have a ball control type offense with some deep shots.

The plan was to run a version of the Brady offense, lots of quick game, and YAC (one reason for moving to Juju) some big targets on the outside, a surehanded TE with a big frame, etc. The problem was...the line got hurt, and nobody respects the go routes, posts and deep outs because they think Mac can't throw them, so it's too crowded for the screens and short slants to be effective.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Please point me to the exact moment of his collapse. Did he play well down the stretch? No, of course not. Post bye he was 106-175 (61.6%) for 1,164 (6.65 YPA), 8 TD, 7 INT, and a 78.9 rating. Obviously, that's bad. But not worst QB in the NFL bad.

He had the one awful game against Buffalo, 14-32 with 2 INT, take out that game and his numbers were 64.3%, 7.13 YPA, 8 TD / 5 INT, 1,019 yards, 89.5 rating. Not setting the world on fire, but hardly collapsing.

It's a small sample. On the other hand if you take out the game against a Jags team that had quit he was:
57.9%, 6.46 YPA, 5TDs 7 INT68.6 Rate, 4.40 ANY/A

so after the bye (he also had a game pre-bye where they just had him hand off every play) he had a really good game against JAX, a decent game against MIA, and 3 varying degrees of bad games (IND, BUF, BUF).

Now could it just be backloading of a couple tough teams... definitely, small sample, hard to say. But he did have 3 of his 4 or 5 worst games of the year among his 5 last games.

 

[tims4wins]

It's a small sample. On the other hand if you take out the game against a Jags team that had quit he was:
57.9%, 6.46 YPA, 5TDs 7 INT68.6 Rate, 4.40 ANY/A

so after the bye (he also had a game pre-bye where they just had him hand off every play) he had a really good game against JAX, a decent game against MIA, and 3 varying degrees of bad games (IND, BUF, BUF).

Now could it just be backloading of a couple tough teams... definitely, small sample, hard to say. But he did have 3 of his 4 or 5 worst games of the year among his 5 last games.

Agreed.

As I mentioned above though, numbers aside, go back and watch that Colts game. Even in an up and down effort he looked like a completely different guy vs the 2023 version.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Agreed.

As I mentioned above though, numbers aside, go back and watch that Colts game. Even in an up and down effort he looked like a completely different guy vs the 2023 version.

Because in the time since he has completely collapsed. He panics now and no longer processes things at NFL speed. He couldn't handle the pushback from the opposition. He lacks the ability to fight through the smallest bit of adversity.

It's a talent issue mostly, but I am also convinced it's a character one. Zappe is not very talented, and he'll never be a good NFL QB, but he has a gunslinger mindset and will fight through things. Mac can't do that.

 

[tims4wins]

Because in the time since he has completely collapsed. He panics now and no longer processes things at NFL speed. He couldn't handle the pushback from the opposition. He lacks the ability to fight through the smallest bit of adversity.

It's a talent issue mostly, but I am also convinced it's a character one. Zappe is not very talented, and he'll never be a good NFL QB, but he has a gunslinger mindset and will fight through things. Mac can't do that.

I don't disagree, at all.

I'm just evaluating my opinion on whether the "league figured him out" after the bye, or if the events of the 2022 offseason were really the catalyst.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

I don't disagree, at all.

I'm just evaluating my opinion on whether the "league figured him out" after the bye, or if the events of the 2022 offseason were really the catalyst.

Fair point. His play to my eyes was noticeably worse after the bye his rookie year. Frankly I wonder if the infamous 3 passes game was the beginning of the end for his mental state.

 

[tims4wins]

Fair point. His play to my eyes was noticeably worse after the bye his rookie year. Frankly I wonder if the infamous 3 passes game was the beginning of the end for his mental state.

Watch these highlights. If you skip the Colts possessions you can get through this in like 6-7 minutes. Mac is making good throws 15+ yards down field. I realize it is just the highlights, but this looks like a pretty good NFL QB to me. And arm strength is not an issue at all. I don't think the Bills game screwed him up. He played pretty well in that Colts game. The blocked punt / TD and the Meyers drop were huge early momentum swings. Despite all that, Mac rallies them from 20-0 down to 20-17, needing one more stop to get the ball back with a chance. Check out some of the throws down the field to Meyers, Bourne, Parker. He is going to multiple reads. He is scrambling when guys are covered. He is stepping up in the pocket. The first pick, by Leonard, he probably should have seen him. The 2nd pick really wasn't a poor decision, or a bad throw. Would have hit the RB right in his hands, but the LB made an outstanding diving fingertip catch.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KECMm5HWUYI

 

[TricorneMafia]

How many years would it take, then? Or does he just get to do it for as long as he wants because he's Bill Belichick? I just want to have a parameter of what would need to happen for an HC with his accomplishments to warrant being fired. Tom Landry went 10-6, 7-9, 7-9, 3-13 before getting canned (at age 64). Four years later the Cowboys won the Super Bowl.

The #2 pick in the draft and the subsequent high picks in the following rounds offer a massive opportunity. It's a loaded QB class. I do not trust BB to make these picks. Whiffing on the #2 pick can set a franchise back years especially if it's a QB. Then we'll be looking at the better part of a decade before we see a competitive team.

 

[Jinhocho]

The #2 pick in the draft and the subsequent high picks in the following rounds offer a massive opportunity. It's a loaded QB class. I do not trust BB to make these picks. Whiffing on the #2 pick can set a franchise back years especially if it's a QB. Then we'll be looking at the better part of a decade before we see a competitive team.

If picking a QB in the second slot won't it be whoever is left of maye or Williams? I bet we win a game or two and end up with alt.

 

[TricorneMafia]

If picking a QB in the second slot won't it be whoever is left of maye or Williams? I bet we win a game or two and end up with alt.

We always beat the Jets but I like Jayden Daniels better than Maye or Williams anyway.

 

[Jimbodandy]

If picking a QB in the second slot won't it be whoever is left of maye or Williams? I bet we win a game or two and end up with alt.

If we end up with the fourth pick, worst case scenario is that we get whoever is left of Williams, Maye, Daniels, and Harrison. I get that the last guy doesn't solve the QB problem, but he's a guy with HOF ceiling, and probably doesn't make it to 4 anyway. Almost certainly have Daniels or Maye available at 4.

 

[DJnVa]

If we end up with the fourth pick, worst case scenario is that we get whoever is left of Williams, Maye, Daniels, and Harrison. I get that the last guy doesn't solve the QB problem, but he's a guy with HOF ceiling, and probably doesn't make it to 4 anyway. Almost certainly have Daniels or Maye available at 4.

Folks can go do a mock draft--use PFN. Do it 3 times, once drafting a QB #2, once drafting MHJ, and once drafting Alt. Then you can see how that leaves you in the 2nd round and 3rd round.

Basically, based on the projections the site currently uses, if you go MHJ or Alt early (yeah, he likely won't go #2 but just pretend that pick is at #4 for the thought exercise) then you get a shot at Penix, Nix, Sanders early in round 2.

If you go QB first, you likely would want to maybe go WR in second, maybe Egbuka, Legette, Worthy, etc.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Folks can go do a mock draft--use PFN. Do it 3 times, once drafting a QB #2, once drafting MHJ, and once drafting Alt. Then you can see how that leaves you in the 2nd round and 3rd round.

Basically, based on the projections the site currently uses, if you go MHJ or Alt early (yeah, he likely won't go #2 but just pretend that pick is at #4 for the thought exercise) then you get a shot at Penix, Nix, Sanders early in round 2.

If you go QB first, you likely would want to maybe go WR in second, maybe Egbuka, Legette, Worthy, etc.

Yep. Good arguments to be had about MJH + Penix/Nix vs. Maye/Williams/Daniels + Legette/Franklin/Worthy/Wilson. I'm converted to the latter viewpoint that we need to lock in the QB first, but if it goes Maye/Williams/Daniels 1-3, it's not like we're totally hosed here. We get the next Randy Moss and hopefully find gold in the next tier of QBs. That's not SOL, and also it's unlikely anyway.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yep. Good arguments to be had about MJH + Penix/Nix vs. Maye/Williams/Daniels + Legette/Franklin/Worthy/Wilson. I'm converted to the latter viewpoint that we need to lock in the QB first, but if it goes Maye/Williams/Daniels 1-3, it's not like we're totally hosed here. We get the next Randy Moss and hopefully find gold in the next tier of QBs. That's not SOL, and also it's unlikely anyway.

Penix is not in the class of the top QBs, Nix even lower, both are considerably worse prospects than Mac where the top 3 are all better. If you don't go QB top 3 you better have a FA plan because you aren't getting a franchise QB in all likelihood

 

[Jimbodandy]

Penix is not in the class of the top QBs, Nix even lower, both are considerably worse prospects than Mac where the top 3 are all better. If you don't go QB top 3 you better have a FA plan because you aren't getting a franchise QB in all likelihood

Agreed, which is why I'm on team top QB. If someone really loves someone in that next tier, they'd still be crazy not to sign one of the FAs. Just seems like folks are already worried that it's a 3-player draft, and if we get the #4 pick, we're doomed.