That just raises more questions. What person who purports to do serious statistical analysis is using a calculator in 2014?cannonball 1729 said:Probably because his calculator ran out of digits. Many calculators only carry 14 digits.
That just raises more questions. What person who purports to do serious statistical analysis is using a calculator in 2014?cannonball 1729 said:Probably because his calculator ran out of digits. Many calculators only carry 14 digits.
The larger strike zone of the 60's is a also a huge factor. Gradually in the 80's umpires stopped calling higher strikes. By the time Pedro was pitching in the late 90's, anything above the belt was a ball.SumnerH said:
I've seen some arguments that though pitchers are throwing fewer innings now than in the 1960s, they're actually throwing about the same number of pitches (or more). Batters are working much longer PAs than they used to.
MentalDisabldLst said:
A few years ago, there was a great set of "Greatest Of All Time (GOAT)" threads where SoSH debated the various merits of every legend from every position, and slowly landed on its rotation of 5 GOAT starting pitchers. I believe Pedro was #2 behind Walter Johnson (which I think is frankly a credit to this site, voting a pitcher from nearly 100 years ago as first, despite everyone's biases and huge mancrushes on Mr. Martinez).
YTF said:I'd like to see Pedro Yoda up with Buchholz for a while and see if perhaps some Jedi magic he can work.
Pitching is feel. Your hand and the ball is a marriage that should never end. The pitcher and the ball should be married forever. Hands, fingers, the ball – they should be married forever. It’s like caressing your wife. It’s touching and getting that feel to know her, alone. It’s the same thing with a baseball.
Big Papa Smurph said:More Pedro from an interview with David Laurila of fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/pedro-martinez-on-the-art-and-science-of-pitching/
Big Papa Smurph said:More Pedro from an interview with David Laurila of fangraphs: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/pedro-martinez-on-the-art-and-science-of-pitching/
Yes they were.
I had three pitches I could normally rely on, but they weren't always all there. On the days they were, it would be a shutout. Maybe it would be a one-hitter, something special.
That's not the case. He'll talk quite a bit about the art of pitching in the book. It's inseparable from his life and career. … And to chime in, David's interview was really good.Jim Ed Rice in HOF said:Yes they were.
This article was not long enough. Of course if it had been a 100K word story it would still be too short.
I believe Pedro's book is going to be more about his life and career and not as focused on the art of pitching. If that's the case he really needs another book deal.
That's great to hear. The publisher's initial snippet saying it will contain "lively, raw stories" about his career didn't make it sound that way. Don't get me wrong - I would be more than happy to read a book about that subject alone but his thoughts on pitching are tremendous.msilverman said:That's not the case. He'll talk quite a bit about the art of pitching in the book. It's inseparable from his life and career. … And to chime in, David's interview was really good.
He needs another book deal regardless of the first book. Pedro is to baseball what Sun Tzu was to warfare.Jim Ed Rice in HOF said:
I believe Pedro's book is going to be more about his life and career and not as focused on the art of pitching. If that's the case he really needs another book deal.
Join Pedro Martinez and Good Humor for Ice Cream
Former Red Sox player Pedro Martinez will celebrate the summer with Good Humor Ice Cream. Just steps outside the Prudential Building, Martinez will pose for pictures and serve up frozen treats to fans. NOON-2 p.m. 800 Boylston St.; facebook.com/goodhumor
Wasn’t sure where to put this but amidst a sea of hang-wringing complaints about baseball, I thought these comments from Pedro were great:
I don't think you'll have to work that hard to convince everyone on this board of all thatSo glad to see a Pedro thread (could not reply to another thread as it was closed.) It's been widely reported that Sandy Koufax along with Walter Johnson, Bob Feller,Gibson et. al were the greatest pitchers of all-time. For me it; s Pedro. look at these cumulative all years head-to-head comparisons to the great Koufax. Pedro beat him in all categories, save one ,FIP and even that was razor close.
Winning %: Pedro .687 to .655
ERA+: Pedro 154 to 131
FIP: Koufax had 2,69 to Pedro's 2.91
K's/9: Pedro had 10.0 to 9.3
K's/BB: Pedro had 4.15 to2.93
WAR: Pedro 84 to 49
Source Baseball-reference.
I was fortunate enough to see Pedro pitch a gem at Fenway. A complete game v. Twins in in 2-1 Sox victory. A true joy to watch and admire!
Oppss. I forgot WHIP category. Pedro 1.054 to Koufax 1.106I don't think you'll have to work that hard to convince everyone on this board of all that
I loved watching him pitch either a win or loss a true wizard to behold. Just like there will be another Ted Williams, there will never be another Pedro!I was at Pedro's last regular season Fenway start as a Red Sox vs the MFY in 2004. His night ended similar to the ALCS '03 game, left in til the 8th to similar results. It wasn't vintage Pedro, but I saw God live in person, so that's good enough for me!
He's on my starting 5 of all time greats.Pedro was magical. If I were to draft and all-time all-star game with all players in their prime in a winner take all, single game situation, My starter is Pedro Jaime Martinez. Circa 1999 or 2000, take your pick.
That's it? Just on your starting five?He's on my starting 5 of all time greats.
I should have been more specific. #1 Pedro 2. Walter Johnson 3.koufax 4. Bob feller 5. Bob. Gibson.That's it? Just on your starting five?
Prime Pedro was the best pitcher who has ever delivered a baseball.
Starting five?? He's the ace of the staff, regardless of who else you put on it.
ERA+ Year
Pedro 285 2000
Pedro 245 1999
Pedro 221 1997
Pedro 212 2003
Pedro 196 2002
Koufax 190 1966
Pedro 189 2001
Koufax 187 1964
Koufax 161 1963
Pedro 160 1998
Koufax 160 1965
I was there too. Couldn’t get over the electric atmosphere. Felt like Christmas morning, but with a ton of Dominican flags waving around the living room.I saw Pedro's first game at Fenway from behind a pole in the right field seats.
Best obstructed view I'll ever have.
Funny, I also saw him pitch 5 times, but only once saw him lose. It was a 2-1 loss to Mussina in the old Toilet in May of 2001 where he K'd 12. Daubach hit a ground rule double with 2 outs that bounced into the stands in the 7th that would have tied it but they made the runner go back to 3rd. He would have scored easily standing up.I saw Pedro start 5 different times. He either got a No Decision or a shitty L. Never once got a victory.
Lost to Mussina twice... David Wells, I think Irabu and Toronto Clemens. I think the Sox scored a total of 4 runs in those 5 games. So annoying
Yup, great as Kershaw is, Pedro is just on another level. I liked this piece from Kershaw’s 2014 run:I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.
I was at that 2-1 loss in NY as well. Frustrating game to watch. Mussina always seemed to pitch well against Pedro. I also saw the Sox lose 2-1 to the Indians with Pedro on the mound. He pitched great as usual.Funny, I also saw him pitch 5 times, but only once saw him lose. It was a 2-1 loss to Mussina in the old Toilet in May of 2001 where he K'd 12. Daubach hit a ground rule double with 2 outs that bounced into the stands in the 7th that would have tied it but they made the runner go back to 3rd. He would have scored easily standing up.
The other 4 times I saw him he got the W every time. Twice against TB, once each against Cleveland and Minnesota. The ballpark was a different place when he pitched. Every 2-stirke count was electric.
Hahaha that was awesome.Yup, great as Kershaw is, Pedro is just on another level. I liked this piece from Kershaw’s 2014 run:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/pedro-martinez-letter-to-clayton-kershaw/
This subset of your great pitchers weren’t on a World Series winning team during their great run, although Pedro made it in 2004 of course.Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives
Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:
Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9
I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding. Other than innings, if you ranked these 14 pitchers in each category, Pedro is #1 in winning %, #6 in era, #4 in fip, #1 in era+, #2 in whip, and #2 in k/9. Nobody else has that many top 3 rankings.
I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.
EDIT: And just to put this in perspective.... Chris Sale, as dominant as he's been, has had one season as a starter with an era+ of more than 175 (this year's 196, and that, of course, could change). Pedro's era+ over a full 7-year period was 213. Holy crap.
This is gold.Yup, great as Kershaw is, Pedro is just on another level. I liked this piece from Kershaw’s 2014 run:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/pedro-martinez-letter-to-clayton-kershaw/
That is amazing. Pedro does have by far the fewest IP (only Kershaw is close) during his peak, but the degree of dominance is staggering. Walter Johnsons's 2485.1 ip at 189 era+ stands out as the biggest contender for a superior combination. But his 6.2 k/9 is surprisingly low to me given the lore around his fastball.Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives
Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:
Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9
I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding.
I'll never forget the 1999 ALDS game 5 relief appearance against the Indians. He was clearly not 100% (which is why he didn't start to begin with) and yet he told Jimy Williams he had seen enough carnage after 3 innings and wanted to try throwing in the bullpen and get in the game if he thought he could manage it. 6 innings and 0 Cleveland hits later, his legend grew. That 1999 Cleveland lineup was about as scary as they come too.My dad (grew up in NY as a Yankee fan) told me he wished I could have seen DiMaggio (his hero) and those guys play ball. I wish I could have seen it too. And I feel bad for kids today who have never seen Pedro pitch. So I like to point them to these links to see for themselves....
I'd include the 17k 1-hitter but that requires payment. Long story short, kids can at least watch Pedro pitch thanks to Youtube.
Any cumulative value item will serve Pedro worse, but sorting Starting Pitchers by the best 7 WAR years (not consecutive 7 years, excluding those who didn't pitch past 1910, Bold career ended after WW2)Great read here: https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/9/13/3322880/the-greatest-pitching-peaks-of-our-lives
Pedro had the greatest 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year peak in baseball history. In fact, here's Pedro's 7-year peak (1997-2003), compared with the other great pitchers' 7-year peaks:
Pedro (1997-2003): 1408 ip, 118-36 (.766), 2.20 era, 2.26 fip, 213 era+, 0.94 whip, 11.3 k/9
Maddux (1992-1998): 1675.1 ip, 127-53 (.706), 2.15 era, 2.59 fip, 190 era+, 0.97 whip, 6.9 k/9
Koufax (1960-1966): 1807.2 ip, 137-60 (.695), 2.36 era, 2.28 fip, 147 era+, 1.01 whip, 9.5 k/9
Johnson (1996-2002): 1548.2 ip, 125-42 (.749), 2.63 era, 2.66 fip, 175 era+, 1.07 whip, 12.3 k/9
Seaver (1968-1974): 1916.1 ip, 130-74 (.637), 2.43 era, 2.54 fip, 145 era+, 1.04 whip, 7.9 k/9
Kershaw (2011-2017): 1452 ip, 118-41 (.742), 2.10 era, 2.36 fip, 179 era+, 0.91 whip, 10.1 k/9
Clemens (1986-1992): 1799.1 ip, 136-63 (.683), 2.66 era, 2.63 fip, 160 era+, 1.09 whip, 8.4 k/9
Marichal (1963-1969): 2020.2 ip, 154-65 (.703), 2.34 era, 2.59 fip, 146 era+, 1.00 whip, 6.7 k/9
Gibson (1966-1972): 1892 ip, 134-72 (.650), 2.42 era, 2.37 fip, 145 era+, 1.08 whip, 7.5 k/9
Johnson (1910-1916): 2485.1 ip, 199-100 (.666), 1.56 era, 1.93 fip, 189 era+, 0.95 whip, 6.2 k/9
Young (1902-1908): 2357 ip, 159-102 (.609), 2.06 era, 1.99 fip, 138 era+, 0.97 whip, 4.5 k/9
Mathewson (1905-1911): 2211.2 ip, 192-72 (.727), 1.78 era, 1.91 fip, 155 era+, 1.00 whip, 5.1 k/9
Grove (1926-1932): 1928.2 ip, 161-59 (.732), 2.64 era, 3.02 fip, 164 era+, 1.19 whip, 6.0 k/9
Palmer (1969-1975): 1840.1 ip, 129-65 (.665), 2.47 era, 3.17 fip, 141 era+, 1.14 whip, 5.5 k/9
I'll leave it there. Pedro's 213 era+ is 23 points better than the #2 guy (Maddux). Astounding. Other than innings, if you ranked these 14 pitchers in each category, Pedro is #1 in winning %, #6 in era, #4 in fip, #1 in era+, #2 in whip, and #2 in k/9. Nobody else has that many top 3 rankings.
I will say that Clayton Kershaw is putting together an all-time great resumé so far. His numbers are absolutely astounding, and so far absolutely rank him among the greatest pitchers ever. He's not Pedro though.
EDIT: And just to put this in perspective.... Chris Sale, as dominant as he's been, has had one season as a starter with an era+ of more than 175 (this year's 196, and that, of course, could change). Pedro's era+ over a full 7-year period was 213. Holy crap.
I would think that Walter Johnson's 6.2 K/9 might be the best of his era so that number should be looked at as a strength and not a weakness.That is amazing. Pedro does have by far the fewest IP (only Kershaw is close) during his peak, but the degree of dominance is staggering. Walter Johnsons's 2485.1 ip at 189 era+ stands out as the biggest contender for a superior combination. But his 6.2 k/9 is surprisingly low to me given the lore around his fastball.
Johan Santana for comparison:
Santana (2002-2008): 1413.1, 106-48 (.688), 2.86 era, 3.17 fip, 156 era+, 1.05 whip, 9.4 k/9
That’s right. Some other top pitchers of the era’s K/9, regular season, wereI would think that Walter Johnson's 6.2 K/9 might be the best of his era so that number should be looked at as a strength and not a weakness.
Certainly there were many batters who rarely struck out and I imagine the K rate was way lower than the circa 15% that it was 15 to 20 years ago. As we know it is now well north of 20%.
Koufax was at 9.3 K/9 and set all kinds of single season records for Ks before Ryan ever debuted.Could say that Nolan Ryan ushered in the strikeout era with his 9.5 K/9.
That's literally all I remember is the Dominican flags and it being a sunny day in April. Although I do recall a ton of strikeouts too, something like 15.I was there too. Couldn’t get over the electric atmosphere. Felt like Christmas morning, but with a ton of Dominican flags waving around the living room.