PGA, LIV tours to merge

[cshea]

I’m sure there are logistics to deal with but I just can’t imagine making even the top guys go back to qualifying, maybe I’m wrong.

If you pretended they didn’t go to LIV but instead played the PGA tour and missed every cut during that gap, how many would still be eligible?

Membership and eligibility are kind of two different things. There are probably 5-10 or so LIV players that would still have membership based on past achivements or recent wins.

Tournament eligibility is based on the priority rankings and that is tied to current performance.

 

[radsoxfan]

Eligibility is extremely complicated so that would be difficult to figure out. The problem is that the number of cards is limited and there aren't just a bunch of spots left unfilled by those who left. My guess, and it's just a personal guess, is that most will play their way back in via sponsor's exemptions and not all of them will be eligible for those.

Gotcha.

Without getting too far into the weeds then, my hunch is that those with significant recent past achievements will end up back on tour sooner rather than later. However that plays out.

Those on the fringe (even if likely a bit better than the bottom of the current PGA ) will have to go back to qualifying and knock those guys out slowly over time.

Eventually things will equilibrate and the best guys will be playing but it'll probably take a few years.

 

[mauf]

If I were king, I’d give all LIV golfers who were formerly PGA Tour members a Korn Ferry tour card, and I’d waive any sanctions specifically tied to leaving one tour for the other. Otherwise, I’d play it as it lies under existing rules. So the returning LIV guys would be in roughly the same place they would be if they had taken a leave of absence without any medical or other exemption.

I believe the result of this would be that Koepka, Bryson, Cam and DJ would get their tour cards back immediately, but most other LIV guys would have to put in at least a year on the Korn Ferry tour. (And I’d add extra slots to that tour for the next few years so lower-end guys don’t get screwed.) I think this would go a ways toward assuaging concerns about fairness, while still ensuring that the PGA Tour features the best golfers in the world.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

Tom Watson not thrilled with the merger: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/tom-watson-s-open-letter-to-pga-tour-commissioner-jay-monahan

There are many unanswered questions to date, which I hope will be addressed with the players by Tour management at this week's Travelers tour event. What does acceptance of this partnership mean to the Tour? What do we get? What do we give up? Why was this deal done in such secrecy and why wasn't even one of the players who sits on the Tour's Policy Board included? A matter this profound deserves thorough vetting by a representative group of stakeholders which include those, who in the end, define the public image and emotional connection with the PGA Tour.

 

[joe dokes]

I love team golf. These guys can't even high-five very well. Anything actually team-ish is beyond them.

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/37973815/matthew-wolff-says-brooks-koepka-criticism-heartbreaking

 

[cshea]

Some recent developments:

• Monahan announced he is returning to work on 7/17
• Randall Stephenson, former chairman & CEO of AT&T, resigned his position as a director on the PGA Tour policy board citing concerns over the deal and Saudi human rights track record.

Today, the Tour is appearing in front of a Senate subcommittee. Tour COO Ron Price and Jimmy Dunne will be representing the Tour. Al-Rumayyan and Norman declined their invitation to appear.

 

[cshea]

Nothing too juicy yet, but apparently there was a side agreement in this whole thing to fire Norman.

Saudi investment "north of $1 billion" accoriding to Price

 

[cshea]

Here's 270 pages of documents, including communications between the PGA Tour and the PIF.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023-07-10-PSI-Majority-Staff-Memorandum-Regarding-Preliminary-Information-on-Agreement-Between-PGA-Tour-and-Saudi-Arabian-Public-Investment-Fund-with-Consolidated-Appendix.pdf

 

[cshea]

Have not watched but judging by the tweets from those who are, seems like this is a waste of time, which is probably to be expected from the government. Mostly political grandstanding.

Skimmed the document release and there's some jokes and meme's to be made but nothing newsworthy, IMO. There's a document related to Vision 2030 in there, emails/whats app exchanges between the principals, the red-lining back and forth of the framework agreement and then some of the emails relating to the anouncement of the deal. There was part of a "exchange of ideas" presentation that made it in relating to things LIV brought to the table for discussion but ultimately none of it made the framework agreement. They proposed Tiger and Rory owning LIV franchises and playing 10 events a year, PIF/Aramco sponsoring one or two elevated events, playing one in KSA, Yasir Al-Rumayyan proposed getting an ANGC membership out of the deal, etc. Fun "what if's" but nothing that will actually happen.

 

[jercra]

The idea that the TOUR can hand out ANGC memberships is absurd and hilarious.

 

[Van Everyman]

In fairness, Al-Rumayyan’s membership would be entirely in keeping with ANGC values.

 

[ehaz]

Mostly grandstanding bullshit. But my favorite part of the hearing was when Price repeatedly said “it’s not a merger” and “we believe it doesn’t violate the antitrust laws” and then less that like 2 minutes later says about getting rid of Norman: “LIV Golf's assets will move into a new subsidiary, controlled by the PGA Tour. Those events will be managed by the PGA Tour. It would make no sense to bring in that type of executive."

 

[cshea]

The most interesting and newsworth part of the document dump is it appears the PIF and Tour couldn't agree on who controls the future of LIV.

View: https://twitter.com/NoLayingUp/status/1678870355086016513?s=20


It's in the NLU thread but basically the back and forth went like this:

• Tour put in language stating the Tour would make the final determination on what happens with LIV.
• PIF deleted it
• Tour added language back changing it to the NewCo board will made the determination on LIV and that PIF/Al-Rumayyan will not have veto rights around it.
• PIF just deleted the "not," so Al-Rumayyan would have veto rights regarding a LIV decision
• The language got taken out entirely and wasn't included in the signed framework agreement.

The Tour mesaging has been that they're going to nuke LIV if this goes through but that seems very much not agreed upon yet.

 

[jercra]

The most interesting and newsworth part of the document dump is it appears the PIF and Tour couldn't agree on who controls the future of LIV.

View: https://twitter.com/NoLayingUp/status/1678870355086016513?s=20


It's in the NLU thread but basically the back and forth went like this:

• Tour put in language stating the Tour would make the final determination on what happens with LIV.
• PIF deleted it
• Tour added language back changing it to the NewCo board will made the determination on LIV and that PIF/Al-Rumayyan will not have veto rights around it.
• PIF just deleted the "not," so Al-Rumayyan would have veto rights regarding a LIV decision
• The language got taken out entirely and wasn't included in the signed framework agreement.

The Tour mesaging has been that they're going to nuke LIV if this goes through but that seems very much not agreed upon yet.

Where have you seen that as the TOUR messaging?

 

[cshea]

Where have you seen that as the TOUR messaging?

It hasn’t been officially communicated but Monahan and others have said in interviews that they (the Tour) will control LIV. Rory said that was his understanding, and he likely got that from Jay and Jimmy. It hardly seems to be the case.

 

[cshea]

Amid pressure from the DOJ, the Tour and PIF have dropped the non-solicitation clause in their framework agreement.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/13/sports/golf/pga-tour-liv-saudi-merger-deal.html

The PGA Tour and Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund, facing pressure from the Justice Department about their ambitions for a new company to shape global golf, have in recent days abandoned a crucial provision of their tentative deal: a promise not to recruit each other’s players.

Three people familiar with the change, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential negotiations, signaled that the decision was an early casualty of an antitrust review by Justice Department regulators, who are expected to decide in the coming months whether to try to block the transaction.

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

Rory appears to be in gives no fucks mode:

 

[cshea]

He shot a 64 today too. Maybe DGAF Rory mode unlocked? I mean, he was like the 3rd best player in the world when he was on the front lines. Now that he's been taken off the front line, maybe he really goes off?

I also have been trying to game out what happens if this thing falls apart. I mean, with the non-solicitation thing dropped what's to stop Tour players from jumping to get the bag now and just figuring they'll come back if/when the 2 sides figure it out?

 

[koufax32]

He shot a 64 today too. Maybe DGAF Rory mode unlocked? I mean, he was like the 3rd best player in the world when he was on the front lines. Now that he's been taken off the front line, maybe he really goes off?

I also have been trying to game out what happens if this thing falls apart. I mean, with the non-solicitation thing dropped what's to stop Tour players from jumping to get the bag now and just figuring they'll come back if/when the 2 sides figure it out?

Am I remembering correctly that DJ, Mickelson, et al have lost some sponsors from their LIV move?

DJ and Adidas “mutually agreed to part ways.” I wonder if/when/how long until these sponsors and golfers reunite and at what price point. IOW, it remains to be seen how much sponsorship revenue will be lost because of their decisions. That could impact future decisions to bail on the PGA in a scenario like the one you posited.

 

[Comfortably Lomb]

I also have been trying to game out what happens if this thing falls apart. I mean, with the non-solicitation thing dropped what's to stop Tour players from jumping to get the bag now and just figuring they'll come back if/when the 2 sides figure it out?

They could do that all along. The parties included the non-solicitation provision in the proposed agreement. Easiest thing in the world to remove since neither the PGA Tour or the Saudis care at all about LIV if the deal goes through. I guess they have to pretend for a while to keep up appearances.

 

[jercra]

It hasn’t been officially communicated but Monahan and others have said in interviews that they (the Tour) will control LIV. Rory said that was his understanding, and he likely got that from Jay and Jimmy. It hardly seems to be the case.

That's not the same thing at all as saying it will be "nuked". Controlled, yes. Nuked? Who knows?

 

[jercra]

They could do that all along. The parties included the non-solicitation provision in the proposed agreement. Easiest thing in the world to remove since neither the PGA Tour or the Saudis care at all about LIV if the deal goes through. I guess they have to pretend for a while to keep up appearances.

This seems to be the popular opinion but saying the PIF doesn't care about LIV going forward is demonstrably wrong just based on the communications in the Senate investigation document. The fact that control of it was argued back and forth shows that they very much care about it.

 

[jk333]

This seems to be the popular opinion but saying the PIF doesn't care about LIV going forward is demonstrably wrong just based on the communications in the Senate investigation document. The fact that control of it was argued back and forth shows that they very much care about it.

I think it’s just a bargaining chip. They both care, because when it’s gone so is the leverage.

edit- my point is PIF doesn’t care about liv, but rather using LIV until they get the deal they want. But you’re correct that unless/until that happens, they absolutely care about LIV

 

[cshea]

s

That's not the same thing at all as saying it will be "nuked". Controlled, yes. Nuked? Who knows?

Nuke was the wrong word. A talking point from the Tour was that they were going to control LIV through this agreement. In public, They implied it would be gone. “We’ll take a look at the numbers, don’t see how it could run concurrently to put Tour…” from Jay. “My understanding is Jay controls LIV and it’ll be gone” type stuff from Rory.

However, based on the document dump, control of LIV seems very much undecided. There’s the back and forth in the NLU tweet and there was a memo from Ron Price to Jay bullet pointing Al-Rumayyan’s concerns, 2 of which surrounded control of LIV

 

[cshea]

Tiger to the rescue:

View: https://twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1686387626281189382?s=20


He becomes the 6th player director, which essentially evens it out in the board room. 12 board seats, 6 players 6 non players. There's also some transparency clauses and what not to check Jay.

 

[TFP]

essentially evens it out in the board room. 12 board seats, 6 players 6 non players

One of the non-player board seats is non-voting though, so essentially players have the majority now.

 

[cshea]

So...this whole PGA Tour/PIF deal appears to be dead. There's been no news about the PIF investment or the MOU since July. It's now being reported that FSG is leading a consortium of sports owners in a bid to invest in the PGA Tour.

View: https://twitter.com/JoshACarpenter/status/1725650135676305498?s=20

 

[voidfunkt]

So...this whole PGA Tour/PIF deal appears to be dead. There's been no news about the PIF investment or the MOU since July. It's now being reported that FSG is leading a consortium of sports owners in a bid to invest in the PGA Tour.

Hard to tell what's going on. Rory just resigned from the board the other day too. I think all parties have decided the stfu approach is for the best at the moment.