Rank the Most Important Patriots Players

[BaseballJones]

This isn't an exercise in the *best* players necessarily, though obviously "best" will be part of the equation.  It's most important, which may include, in your estimation, age and contract and position, etc.  I'll go with the top 15 players, in my opinion, in terms of their relative importance to the New England Patriots.
 
1.  Tom Brady.  Obviously.
 
2.  Rob Gronkowski.  The offense is completely different when he's not there.  Best TE in the game, by far.  One of the best weapons in all of football.
 
3.  Devin McCourty.  Dynamic safety, his play allows the corners to be even better.  
 
4.  Jamie Collins.  Most versatile defender on the team, he allows Patricia all sorts of flexibility.
 
5.  Julian Edelman.  Incredible player - receiver, runner, punt returner.  Mr. Clutch.
 
6.  Sebastian Vollmer.  With Solder out, Vollmer becomes a crucially important player for the O-line.
 
7.  Dont'a Hightower.  The punisher on defense, works very well with Collins.
 
8.  Malcolm Butler.  Emerging star at CB, does a good job taking on the other team's #1 WR.
 
9.  Dion Lewis.  Not that they couldn't find a potential replacement, but he's been so dynamic, he gives them a weapon few teams have.
 
10. Chandler Jones.  Excellent edge rusher, can also move inside if they need him to.
 
11. Alan Branch.  He's been a mountain in the middle this year, solidifying the D-line.
 
12. Stephen Gostkowski.  What a kicking weapon.
 
13. Duron Harmon.  He's been outstanding working with McCourty in the defensive backfield.
 
14. David Andrews.  As a rookie, he stepped in and was huge in helping the Patriots overcome the loss of Stork.  But now that Stork is back, if they lost Andrews, it's not that big a blow, hence his spot further down this list.
 
15. Jabaal Sheard.  He has been terrific, but injured.  Has helped Ninkovich and Jones because now there's three quality guys in the rotation.  
 
 
Note:  The Patriots have rotated OL and DL (especially DT) players so much that it's hard to put guys like Easley or Malcolm Brown or Siliga or Kline or Mason or Jackson or Cannon on this list, because the loss of any one of them isn't a killer for the team.  Of course, that didn't stop me from putting Branch and Andrews on there....  YMMV.

 

[Saints Rest]

Fun topic. 
 
My go (my main parameter for defining "important" is in terms of replacability; IOW, what's the falloff to this person's replacement)

1. TB12
2. Gronk
3. Collins 
4. Vollmer
5. Ghost
6. Donta
7. Chandler Jones
8. Butler
9. Nink
10. Lewis
11. Ryan Allen
12. DMC (dinged because I consider Harmon his replacement and that is not too bad a falloff)
13. Chung
14. LGBT
15. Edelman (same reason as DMC, as Amendola seems like a small drop off)

 

[BaseballJones]

 
Fun topic. 
 
My go (my main parameter for defining "important" is in terms of replacability; IOW, what's the falloff to this person's replacement)

1. TB12
2. Gronk
3. Collins 
4. Vollmer
5. Ghost
6. Donta
7. Chandler Jones
8. Butler
9. Nink
10. Lewis
11. Ryan Allen
12. DMC (dinged because I consider Harmon his replacement and that is not too bad a falloff)
13. Chung
14. LGBT
15. Edelman (same reason as DMC, as Amendola seems like a small drop off)

 

 
Good list.  By your criteria, if they lost Nink and Sheard came in for him, how big of a drop off do you think that would be?  Or if they had to replace Ryan Allen (who rarely punts anyway) with a run-of-the-mill punter?
 
And how far has Chung come?  I mean, his first go-round with the Pats he just wasn't that good.  Now, he's outstanding.

 

[Saints Rest]

 
Good list.  By your criteria, if they lost Nink and Sheard came in for him, how big of a drop off do you think that would be?  Or if they had to replace Ryan Allen (who rarely punts anyway) with a run-of-the-mill punter?
 
And how far has Chung come?  I mean, his first go-round with the Pats he just wasn't that good.  Now, he's outstanding.

I think Sheard is likely a better pass rusher than Nink but Nink does so many things well, especially setting the edge, that his replaceablity by anyone is suspect.  I might almost want to flip-flop Chandler and Nink in my ranking as I think Sheard is a much better replacement for CJ in terms of the things he does well (i.e. rushing the QB).

Allen has turned into a really great situational punter.  It's a rare thing when he has a clunker.  The success of the Patriot offense is such that he is more frequently asked to make sure the opponents have a zero-return option inside the 15 than he is to boom one out, so we tend to forget/overlook his ability to pull a field-reversal punt out of his pocket when needed.  So yes, I think a "run-of-the-mill" punter would be a significant fall-off.
 
I agree with you 100% about Chung.  BB has said that Chung's improvement is a lot about putting him in better places to play to his strengths.  Maybe so, but whatever the reason, he has gone from a liability to a strength.  As someone here mentioned in the Jones/Collins/Hightower thread, Chung's coverage ability on TE's has freed up Donta to rush the passer (which he is really good at) and avoid covering TE's (which he is NOT good at).

 

[mauf]

I'm surprised Amendola isn't on either top-15 list above.He's the closest thing the Pats have to a WR that stretches the field, and I think his resurgent season is a big reason the offense is even better than expected.
 
My list:
 
1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. Vollmer
4.Mayo Butler
5. McCourty
6. Collins
7. Amendola
8. Cannon
9. Lewis
10. Nink
 
Mayo is in the same category as Vollmer -- clearly not one of the team's five best players, but one of the five the Pats could least afford to lose. Who plays MLB if Mayo goes down??
 
Same reasoning for Cannon and Lewis ahead of Nink.
 
Edit: I'm a dumbass. Swapped in Butler for Mayo, but he probably belongs a spot or two lower.

 

[Morgan's Magic Snowplow]

I'm surprised Amendola isn't on either top-15 list above.He's the closest thing the Pats have to a WR that stretches the field, and I think his resurgent season is a big reason the offense is even better than expected.
 
My list:
 
1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. Vollmer
4. Mayo
5. McCourty
6. Collins
7. Amendola
8. Cannon
9. Lewis
10. Nink
 
Mayo is in the same category as Vollmer -- clearly not one of the team's five best players, but one of the five the Pats could least afford to lose. Who plays MLB if Mayo goes down??
 
Same reasoning for Cannon and Lewis ahead of Nink.

 
Hightower?

 

[mauf]

 
Hightower?

 
So Hightower slides to MLB, and Bostic steps in at OLB? I guess I could see that. (And in nickel/dime packages, I guess it wouldn't matter)
 
I'd still put Mayo in my top 10, but you've certainly persuaded me that he doesn't belong ahead of McCourty or Collins.

 

[Super Nomario]

Holy shit, did Maufman fall asleep after Week 1 of 2013 and just wake up?

 

[amarshal2]

 
So Hightower slides to MLB, and Bostic steps in at OLB? I guess I could see that. (And in nickel/dime packages, I guess it wouldn't matter)
 
I'd still put Mayo in my top 10, but you've certainly persuaded me that he doesn't belong ahead of McCourty or Collins.

 
He's about as valuable to the Patriots as Polamalu is to the Steelers

 

[AbbyNoho]

Mayo is barely on the team anymore...

 

[mauf]

Oops, I stand corrected I guess.
 
I realized he wasn't on the field in nickel/dime sets, but I thought he was still an important part of the 4-3 set.
 
And I don't know how Butler didn't make my top 10 list -- that was an oversight, as there would be a huge drop off from Butler to ... yeah, exactly?

 

[jasail]

Brady - Obvious reasons
Gronk - Opens everything on offense up
McCourty - Lynch pin of the secondary
Collins - Allows for versatile scheming upfront
Vollmer - Holds the OLine together
Butler - The reliable outside CB at a position with limited depth
Edelman - Moves the chains
Hightower - Signal caller and the thump
Ghost - Reliable as they come
Nink - Best all around DL

 

[ragnarok725]

1. Brady
2. Gronkowski
3. Collins
4. Butler 
5. Vollmer
6. Lewis
7. Hightower
8. McCourty
9. Chandler Jones
10. Edelman

 
Honorable mentions to Ghost, Nink, and Cannon, but in Ghost's case you can always find another kicker and maybe that means several more misses but I don't think it makes the difference the same way any of these guys going down would, and Nink and Cannon's fall-off to the next guy behind them just isn't big enough.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Any list like this should just start at spot 3 because I can't see anyone disagreeing on the first two.
My list treats most important as least replaceable, that costs Edelman and McCourty quite a bit and bumps up Butler and Vollmer.
 
3)Vollmer
4)Collins
5)Butler
6)Hightower
7)Gostkowski
8)Jones
9)McCourty
10)Lewis
 
Edit:I took out Edelman from number 10 because I think Amendola if needed could give you 90% of what Edelman could.

 

[TheRooster]

Ghost should probably be top 5. Unlike other spots they don't have anyone on the roster who has been preparing to step in. Miss a FG or two and leave a KO short and you'd probably lose 2 extra games. Can't say that for many positions. Solder would have been in the top 5 and on they roll.

 

[snowmanny]

1. Brady
2. Gronkowski
3. Edelman
4. Collins
5. Hightower
6. Vollmer
7. Gostkowski
8. Ninkovich
9. Lewis
10.McCourty

So I have Edelman third. First of all, I don't believe that Amendola gives them 90% of what Edelman does. Edelman is way more reliable, has a much longer reecord of success, and is generally a YAC machine. Second of all, the defense is good, but the offense is historically good, and it is the historically good offense that is driving this team to a possibly great season. So to me the main contributers to that are the most important players on the team, and I am putting them one, two, three without much reservation.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

1. TB12
2. Gronk
3. Revis
4. Collins
5. Edelman
6. Mayo
7. Lewis
8. Butler
9. Mankins
10. Vollmer

God this team is stacked.

 

[tims4wins]

Mankins & Mayo?

 

[AbbyNoho]

Did you somehow miss the Revis at 3, tims?

 

[tims4wins]

Indeed. Is it 5pm yet?

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

I know Mankins is older, but he's the heart of the line.

 

[dirtynine]

Slater cracks the top 15, no?

 

[RedOctober3829]

1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. McCourty
4. Hightower
5. Collins
6. Butler
7. Ghost
8. Jones
9. Edelman
10. Chung


First 2 are easy. I rank DMC that high because he is that important to keeping the secondary intact. Hightower is the QB of the front 7 and has really stepped up to be a superstar at the position. Collins is a freak who can do so many things. Butler is the only top CB the secondary has. Ghost is the best kicker in football. Chung is versatile enough to cover TEs and also be an impact in the run defense.

 

[GeorgeCostanza]

It's tough enough adjusting to the new forum layout with my sarcasm meter running low on batteries this thread is a nightmare. My 10:

1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. Hightower
4. Edelman
5. Ghost
6. DMC
7. Collins
8. Lewis
9. Jones
10. Butler

 

[Toe Nash]

Kind of went with a combination of importance to the team and replaceability (how easy it would be to find another player who does what he does at a decent level). Specific thoughts:

-Butler has been on the field for every snap except a couple garbage time snaps -- tied with McCourty, leading the team in defensive snaps. I think that says a lot about his role and importance. But, while he's been OK, he could be improved upon when someone becomes available.

-Chung is 6th in defensive snaps and also 5th in special teams snaps. Seems to be in the right place more often than not. I like him.

-We know Gronk is great with the ball but I've found myself watching him when he stays in to block as well and it's amazing. He's so important and great.

-Gostkowski is a very good kicker, but he is a kicker. You could get a guy off the street and it might make a difference in one or two games a year. Yeah, sucks if that's a playoff game but I can't rank a kicker that high.

-Found it hard to rank Edelman, since he kind of replaced Welker himself and I think Amendola could do a decent imitation of him. But I think he might be the most versatile and best of the three.

-I also think the offense is more important than the defense overall.

-Have no idea about the OL so I left them all off, but I'd love to know what Scarnecchia thinks.

1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. Edelman
4. McCourty
5. Collins
6. Hightower
7. Ninkovich
8. D Lewis
9. Butler
10. Chung / C Jones

 

[kelpapa]

Slater cracks the top 15, no?

I posted something similar earlier today, but I think the board ate it. I started thinking about it and checked his snap count. He's only played 148 snaps. 34 players have played more. While he's clearly the best at what he does, the drop off from him to someone else isn't near the impact of other positions.

 

[Ale Xander]

1. Brady
2. Gronk
3. Collins
4. DMC
5. Butler
5.5 Solder
6. Sea bass
7. Edelman
8. Ghost
9. Slater
10. Lewis
11. Hightower
12. Ryan
13. Chandler jones
14. Nink
15. Mason

 

[JohnnyK]

9. Slater
10. Lewis
11. Hightower
12. Ryan
13. Chandler jones
14. Nink
15. Mason

I'd love to hear your reasoning why you put Slater 9th and above those other guys. Hightower is the quarterback of the defense, Ryan is basically CB2, Jones is the best pass rusher etc.
Yeah, field position is important, but as kelpapa posted he hasn't even played 150 snaps yet.

 

[soxfan121]

-Have no idea about the OL so I left them all off, but I'd love to know what Scarnecchia thinks.

Terrific point. I'm guessing he says Bruce Armstrong.

 

[Devizier]

I posted something similar earlier today, but I think the board ate it. I started thinking about it and checked his snap count. He's only played 148 snaps. 34 players have played more. While he's clearly the best at what he does, the drop off from him to someone else isn't near the impact of other positions.

I think it depends on how you are rating value here: is it raw value or "replacement" value? The term "important" to me indicates raw value, but it could be interpreted either way.

By "raw value" the worst WR2 in the NFL might be "worth" more than Danny Amendola. But that doesn't mean that he's a better player.

 

[Ale Xander]

I'd love to hear your reasoning why you put Slater 9th and above those other guys. Hightower is the quarterback of the defense, Ryan is basically CB2, Jones is the best pass rusher etc.
Yeah, field position is important, but as kelpapa posted he hasn't even played 150 snaps yet.

because he is the QB of the ST and is arguably the best ST'er in the entire league since Tasker. I don't think he's replaceable in my sense of the word. He's also arguably the 2nd biggest locker room leader on the team.

 

[nothumb]

To me the hard part of this is merging the offensive and defensive rankings.

Offense: Brady, Gronk, Edelman, Vollmer, Lewis, Cannon, Amen$

Defense: Butler, Collins, DMC, Jones, Nink, Hightower, Chung.

Defense is a little tricky as I think Collins and DMC are the two best players but both have pretty decent backups. I also think Ryan is playing pretty close to Butler's level the last few games, but the ripple effect of losing Butler would be too big.

 

[BaseballJones]

I think the upcoming weeks may show us how important Lewis has been to this team.

 

[nothumb]

I think the upcoming weeks may show us how important Lewis has been to this team.

I think the DEN game is when we will really find out. That's the first defense that really has the personnel to force us to find the mismatch in the 3rd, 4th or even 5th option. Bills game could be a little tough but it's at home and BB has already seen them once this year and I expect them to implode.

 

[Slow Rheal]

Frank Gore just put over 100 all purpose yards on Denver's D. With LGBT being the 3rd, 4th, or 5th option, I'm feeling fine with the Pats ability to keep moving the ball and mixing in their whole playbook.

 

[BaseballJones]

This isn't an exercise in the *best* players necessarily, though obviously "best" will be part of the equation. It's most important, which may include, in your estimation, age and contract and position, etc. I'll go with the top 15 players, in my opinion, in terms of their relative importance to the New England Patriots.

1. Tom Brady. Obviously.

2. Rob Gronkowski. The offense is completely different when he's not there. Best TE in the game, by far. One of the best weapons in all of football.

3. Devin McCourty. Dynamic safety, his play allows the corners to be even better.

4. Jamie Collins. Most versatile defender on the team, he allows Patricia all sorts of flexibility.

5. Julian Edelman. Incredible player - receiver, runner, punt returner. Mr. Clutch.

6. Sebastian Vollmer. With Solder out, Vollmer becomes a crucially important player for the O-line.

7. Dont'a Hightower. The punisher on defense, works very well with Collins.

8. Malcolm Butler. Emerging star at CB, does a good job taking on the other team's #1 WR.

9. Dion Lewis. Not that they couldn't find a potential replacement, but he's been so dynamic, he gives them a weapon few teams have.

10. Chandler Jones. Excellent edge rusher, can also move inside if they need him to.

11. Alan Branch. He's been a mountain in the middle this year, solidifying the D-line.

12. Stephen Gostkowski. What a kicking weapon.

13. Duron Harmon. He's been outstanding working with McCourty in the defensive backfield.

14. David Andrews. As a rookie, he stepped in and was huge in helping the Patriots overcome the loss of Stork. But now that Stork is back, if they lost Andrews, it's not that big a blow, hence his spot further down this list.

15. Jabaal Sheard. He has been terrific, but injured. Has helped Ninkovich and Jones because now there's three quality guys in the rotation.


Note: The Patriots have rotated OL and DL (especially DT) players so much that it's hard to put guys like Easley or Malcolm Brown or Siliga or Kline or Mason or Jackson or Cannon on this list, because the loss of any one of them isn't a killer for the team. Of course, that didn't stop me from putting Branch and Andrews on there.... YMMV.

So four of my top nine are out (not to mention Solder too). This team is very much being put to the test.

If I was making a new list right now, based on their injury situation, Amendola would be right near the top.

 

[soxfan121]

So four of my top nine are out (not to mention Solder too). This team is very much being put to the test.

If I was making a new list right now, based on their injury situation, Amendola would be right near the top.

Or, I don't know, you could admit this is a stupid discussion to have because as long as Tom Brady and Bill Belichick are around, they could drag a high school JV team to a couple playoff wins.

 

[BaseballJones]

I don't think its a stupid discussion to have, but YMMV.

I do think it shows the greatness of BB and TB that they can just keep winning with all the injuries this team is suffering. We are a very lucky fan base.

 

[Reverend]

I tend to think that the observed outcome undermines the implied thesis of such an exercise.

Not that there are not a couple of exceptional individuals but, If anything, what we've leaned is that there is a reason that Belichick is so meticulous about the entire roster. If asked about an exercise like this, I expect he'd make a(nother) joke about fantasy football.

 

[BaseballJones]

It's just a topic of conversation, and if you as a mod want to close the thread because it's not worth discussing, go ahead.

I think the fact that the Pats keep winning doesn't undermine the thesis that there are more important players on the Pats than others. I think it really underscores that the #1 most important player is so ridiculously important that it renders the difference between #6 and #7 kind of moot.

But the consequence of believing that there really aren't more important players than others, is that, well, all the players are pretty much of the same importance. And if you put some truth serum in Belichick's veins, I'd wager he wouldn't buy that at all. I bet he'd say that every player really is important, but that Edelman, for example, is a lot more important to this team than Martin, and that McCourty is a lot more important than Tavon Wilson.

 

[soxfan121]

I am shocked you don't get the point.

List away.

 

[Reverend]

It's just a topic of conversation, and if you as a mod want to close the thread because it's not worth discussing, go ahead.

I know I can close the thread, but I'm not, because yeah, we let people discuss things--usually whatever they want unless it's actually harmful or counterproductive.

By the same token, a discussion of whether or not this is a worthwhile discussion or if looking at football this way actually distorts our understanding of the game and how roster construction works is most definitely a worthwhile discussion. Indeed, that may be the most interesting insight to come from the thread--science isn't always about proving a hypothesis; disproofs are important too.

I think the fact that the Pats keep winning doesn't undermine the thesis that there are more important players on the Pats than others. I think it really underscores that the #1 most important player is so ridiculously important that it renders the difference between #6 and #7 kind of moot.

I sorta agree, but I think the latter point undermines the first. So what this suggests is impostance is probably not a linear grade as implicit in the exercise as stated here, but rather one of preconditions, minimum standards, and minimax value optimization and stuff like that.

See? That's interesting.

But the consequence of believing that there really aren't more important players than others, is that, well, all the players are pretty much of the same importance. And if you put some truth serum in Belichick's veins, I'd wager he wouldn't buy that at all. I bet he'd say that every player really is important, but that Edelman, for example, is a lot more important to this team than Martin, and that McCourty is a lot more important than Tavon Wilson.

I think he would tell you that he makes roster decisions based on who is available and at what price and then he works to maximize the output of each player in aggregate.

I think that output also comes in symbiotic relationships that undermine the notion of linear value. Like, this seemed to be why Browner was let go: He was awesome in a scheme with Revis and McCourty over the top, but with Revis gone, he didn't have the same value. Now, certainly, some positions are beyond that (e.g. QB), and also, some players may work as multipliers like that--I think Gronk, especially because he's so good at both blocking and receiving, open up more possibilities for other players.

But that simply underscores how the value comes in symbiotic fashion from having the right sets of players. Do Edelman and Amendola kick as much ass against defenses not sent into fits by Gronk motioning? I'm not so sure.

I do know that Butler wasn't one of the most valuable players on the team, right up until I had to explain to some friends of mine with a quarter and a half to go during the Super Bowl that he wasn't even supposed to be on the field.

 

[BaseballJones]

I am shocked you don't get the point.

List away.

I really don't get the criticism here.

 

[soxfan121]

I know I can close the thread, but I'm not, because yeah, we let people discuss things--usually whatever they want unless it's actually harmful or counterproductive.

By the same token, a discussion of whether or not this is a worthwhile discussion or if looking at football this way actually distorts our understanding of the game and how roster construction works is most definitely a worthwhile discussion. Indeed, that may be the most interesting insight to come from the thread--science isn't always about proving a hypothesis; disproofs are important too.

Well, thanks for explaining why I hate this topic of discussion.

And the only person in the thread to actually list Matthew Slater was Ale Xander, who had him 9th. (Cheers to AX, btw)

Slater is the third-longest tenured Patriot player. He has been a team captain for what, the last five seasons? He is often the player who makes locker room speeches, is the player who is sent out to do "tough" media assignments (like the first day of DFG camp), and is (IMO) a future Hall of Famer for his on field play.

Someone up thread used snap counts to dispute Slater's inclusion. That's so ass-backwards it makes my head hurt.

Any list that doesn't include Slater in the top 3 is flat-out-wrong. Roster construction is about way more than which guys have great fantasy stats, sell the most jerseys or play the most snaps.

Slater is the ultimate glue guy - off the field, he keeps the team together. He's the older brother or father-figure to young players, and the guy incoming veterans look to for guidance on how to be a Patriot. His value to the team, on the field, is immense, as he's one of the best ever at his position. There is a strong correlation between field position and points - Slater is a certified area-denial weapon on special teams.

So yeah, a list thread that mentions Slater on ONE list is pretty worthless. It's like a thread on the most important figures in Red Sox history omitting Pedro.

 

[bakahump]

1. Tom Brady. Obviously.

2. Rob Gronkowski. The offense is completely different when he's not there. Best TE in the game, by far. One of the best weapons in all of football.

3. Devin McCourty. Dynamic safety, his play allows the corners to be even better.

4. Jamie Collins. Most versatile defender on the team, he allows Patricia all sorts of flexibility.

5. Julian Edelman. Incredible player - receiver, runner, punt returner. Mr. Clutch.

6. Sebastian Vollmer. With Solder out, Vollmer becomes a crucially important player for the O-line.

7. Dont'a Hightower. The punisher on defense, works very well with Collins.

8. Malcolm Butler. Emerging star at CB, does a good job taking on the other team's #1 WR.

9. Dion Lewis. Not that they couldn't find a potential replacement, but he's been so dynamic, he gives them a weapon few teams have.

10. Chandler Jones. Excellent edge rusher, can also move inside if they need him to.

11. Alan Branch. He's been a mountain in the middle this year, solidifying the D-line.

12. Stephen Gostkowski. What a kicking weapon.

13. Duron Harmon. He's been outstanding working with McCourty in the defensive backfield.

14. David Andrews. As a rookie, he stepped in and was huge in helping the Patriots overcome the loss of Stork. But now that Stork is back, if they lost Andrews, it's not that big a blow, hence his spot further down this list.

15. Jabaal Sheard. He has been terrific, but injured. Has helped Ninkovich and Jones because now there's three quality guys in the rotation.

.

I realize Baseball Jones didnt mean to....but we need to lock this thread ASAP. How many more must suffer?

 

[snowmanny]

I will attest a thousand times over to the limits of my football knowledge and the fact that my list reflects the perspective of a very limited-knowledge fan sitting on his couch watching games. I will also attest that my knowledge of what makes a football team run is even far far less than my limited knowledge of what makes a baseball team or a basketball team work.I thought it was interesting to see what similar (but occasionally more knowledgable) fans thought on this topic, knowing that we were all, to various degrees, FOS. The fact that it turns out that Slater is in some way equatable to Pedro further demonstrates the vast depths of ye ignorance.

 

[Reverend]

I will attest a thousand times over to the limits of my football knowledge and the fact that my list reflects the perspective of a very limited-knowledge fan sitting on his couch watching games. I will also attest that my knowledge of what makes a football team run is even far far less than my limited knowledge of what makes a baseball team or a basketball team work.I thought it was interesting to see what similar (but occasionally more knowledgable) fans thought on this topic, knowing that we were all, to various degrees, FOS. The fact that it turns out that Slater is in some way equatable to Pedro further demonstrates the vast depths of ye ignorance.

I think most of us like little pointers and tips about what to watch for when watching a game--I know I do.

Tip: On all Patriots kicks, watch for what number is the first person to get to the returner, either to force him make a fair catch or to force his first move. It's eerie.

Then realize that Slater is double teamed on the snap Every. Single. Play.

 

[soxfan121]

I will attest a thousand times over to the limits of my football knowledge and the fact that my list reflects the perspective of a very limited-knowledge fan sitting on his couch watching games. I will also attest that my knowledge of what makes a football team run is even far far less than my limited knowledge of what makes a baseball team or a basketball team work.I thought it was interesting to see what similar (but occasionally more knowledgable) fans thought on this topic, knowing that we were all, to various degrees, FOS. The fact that it turns out that Slater is in some way equatable to Pedro further demonstrates the vast depths of ye ignorance.

You need to read more Zodda, bro. ;-)

Unlike Pedro, whose singular brilliance on a baseball diamond was easy to see for all - because, that's how God operates, right? - Slater's skills are often hidden, off-screen, by commercial, and because most fans don't give special teams the weight it deserves as a "phase of the game".

I didn't understand it either - until I started listening to Zodda and others who really know the game. It isn't as easy to observe, and it really isn't easy to quantify.

Credit to Rev for turning this into a learning experience for all of us and broadening the discussion.

 

[Super Nomario]

I think that output also comes in symbiotic relationships that undermine the notion of linear value. Like, this seemed to be why Browner was let go: He was awesome in a scheme with Revis and McCourty over the top, but with Revis gone, he didn't have the same value. Now, certainly, some positions are beyond that (e.g. QB), and also, some players may work as multipliers like that--I think Gronk, especially because he's so good at both blocking and receiving, open up more possibilities for other players.

But that simply underscores how the value comes in symbiotic fashion from having the right sets of players. Do Edelman and Amendola kick as much ass against defenses not sent into fits by Gronk motioning? I'm not so sure.

I think the point about symbiosis is a good one. A lot of folks had Vollmer among the top three or four (and presumably would have had Solder ranked similarly pre-injury), but they've weathered having backup tackles OK because Brady gets rid of the ball so quickly. Against the Giants, we saw that Edelman's injury coupled with the OL injuries became a problem, because Brady can't get rid of the ball as quickly without receivers that can get open quickly (especially Edelman). There's a certain amount of ability to compensate for injury by altering strategy at both ends of the ball, but you need enough to work with so you can win somewhere. Opponent quality matters, too - a better pass rush or a Giants secondary with a healthy Amukamara might have made Vollmer's absence more of a problem yesterday.

Other than QB, you can potentially compensate for any kind of injury, and maybe we ought to think about "value" in terms of how much you have to compensate.

Any list that doesn't include Slater in the top 3 is flat-out-wrong. Roster construction is about way more than which guys have great fantasy stats, sell the most jerseys or play the most snaps.

Slater is the ultimate glue guy - off the field, he keeps the team together. He's the older brother or father-figure to young players, and the guy incoming veterans look to for guidance on how to be a Patriot. His value to the team, on the field, is immense, as he's one of the best ever at his position. There is a strong correlation between field position and points - Slater is a certified area-denial weapon on special teams.

So yeah, a list thread that mentions Slater on ONE list is pretty worthless. It's like a thread on the most important figures in Red Sox history omitting Pedro.

I love Slater, too, and think the casual fan underrates ST generally, but to some extent we can measure "value" in how much much Belichick is willing to pay, and Slater has the 18th-highest cap hit on the team, behind dudes like Branch, Scott Chander, and Cannon. I'm sure (behind closed doors) Belichick and Joe Judge would say Slater's a bargain at twice the price, but I'd guess he's closer to the bottom half of the top 10 than the top (which still makes him underrated by most here).

 

[soxfan121]

I love Slater, too, and think the casual fan underrates ST generally, but to some extent we can measure "value" in how much much Belichick is willing to pay, and Slater has the 18th-highest cap hit on the team, behind dudes like Branch, Scott Chander, and Cannon. I'm sure (behind closed doors) Belichick and Joe Judge would say Slater's a bargain at twice the price, but I'd guess he's closer to the bottom half of the top 10 than the top (which still makes him underrated by most here).

I like contracts as a measuring stick even less than snap count - though they are obviously related.

Without tight criteria, "list threads" ultimately become shiny-bauble comparisons and, hence, useless. Maybe Slater's not #3, maybe he is closer to #9 (as Ale Xander had him) but either way, he's higher than 18th because the position wage scale in the NFL is also a pretty craptacular "list" way of evaluating contributions and "value".

As for the part of your post I didn't quote - spot on. The inter-connected nature of how a team works means the more pieces you lose, the less flexibility the coach has to plug schematic holes.

Still - with the very definition of a make-shift offensive line, and missing "4 of the 9 most important Patriots" they still won, on the road.

Belichick could win the Big Ten title with Rutgers's bottom 45 roster players, if you gave him Tom Brady as the quarterback. They made the AFC Championship one year with Crazy Eyez Killah at WR and the immortal Eric Alexander playing lots of snaps at linebacker.