The Astros record/ run differential with their sign stealing system in place points to the system being ineffective, but it doesn’t make it not cheating.How about more recent studies that say corking bats does not help hitters?
The Astros record/ run differential with their sign stealing system in place points to the system being ineffective, but it doesn’t make it not cheating.How about more recent studies that say corking bats does not help hitters?
This is just wrong.The only reason to take steroids is to heal more quickly. You take them so you can workout harder, more often, and still recover and rebuild your muscles between workouts. So where is the line that you draw between healing and enhancing?
I think this just points to there not being a distinct line between "gamesmanship" and cheating. Technically the former is just euphemism for cheating, and it's used to mitigate the connotations of the harsher term.Slightly off-topic, but I once read what a sports official said about "cheating" and he had a very unpopular, but interesting, opinion. He basically said that anything that is covered in the official rule book and has a prescribed penalty is - by his definition -not cheating. So according to this, from the above list, the pinetar / foreign substance stuff wouldn't be cheating, but everything else would be.
His argument was something like this: Rule books say things like if you balk, the runners get to advance a base. Or if you hold a defensive lineman you get moved back 10 yards. Or if you trip a skater you spend 2 minute in the penalty box. Or if you bump a shooter he gets to take some free throws. Nobody thinks that balking or being offside is "cheating". They're something you "shouldn't" do, and there are defined consequences for doing it.
Now, the baseball rulebook also says you're not supposed to use pinetar or corked bats and defines the penalty for doing so (automatic out or ejection or whatever). Why do people feel that these type of infractions are cheating but the other ones aren't? One could make an argument that a batter who uses a corked bat is trying to gain an unfair advantage without getting caught. One could also argue the exact same thing for a pitcher who uses a balk-like move and hopes to get away with it without getting caught (I'm looking at you Andy Pettitte!). What about a batter who pretends to be hit by a pitch and starts walking to 1st base? (Jeter). Or who drops a foul ball in the stands but pretends to catch it?
Just some food for thought.....
Vegas and the pro sports leagues track the data so carefully that any pattern like that would be caught within a couple of games.I doubt it would be difficult for a player to find people to place a bets.
We're saying the same thing. I was just saying where is the line between "unnatural gains" and natural ones? For a relief pitching being able to recover in between appearances and still do your workouts and stay strong all season is a big deal. It's also not natural.This is just wrong.
Recovering more quickly allows the athlete to make unnatural gains. Barry Bond's was not seething about being ignored because Sosa and BigMac were healing so fast. He wanted to get bigger and correctly predicted if he juiced he would break the Hr record. Steroids are taken to make you bigger and stronger. The recovery reason is often used by juicers as an excuse. The recovery angle is massive though,allowing guys to pitch more often, bounce back from a road trip, etc.
Vegas and the pro sports leagues track the data so carefully that any pattern like that would be caught within a couple of games.
Okay.We're saying the same thing. I was just saying where is the line between "unnatural gains" and natural ones? For a relief pitching being able to recover in between appearances and still do your workouts and stay strong all season is a big deal. It's also not natural.
Full agreement here. My only quibble is that the poll said “Steroids” when the evil of doping reaches far beyond one category of substance. Abuse of stimulants has an equally ugly track record - as do other types of doping.Steroids.
And it’s not even close in my opinion.
Steroids are a health hazard. Players who made steroids the price of admission in the 1990s were forcing other players to put their long-term health at risk.
None of the other cheating incidents gives people brain cancer.
Well, yeah. You’re talking about trying to find the marginal contribution to the incidence of an extremely rare disease using a small, highly selected and truncated (biasing your answer toward no connection) sample with a mismeasured risk driver (also biasing your answer toward no connection).People who learn enough math to do basic stats, but not enough to know about uncertainty and sample size are pretty dangerous.
Doesn't mean it still isn't happening.That was 15 years ago.
So you believe any wild ass claim, as long as it's about something serious? Is that what you're saying? Because that's what you just wrote, and is how quackery gets sold.Well, yeah. You’re talking about trying to find the marginal contribution to the incidence of an extremely rare disease using a small, highly selected and truncated (biasing your answer toward no connection) sample with a mismeasured risk driver (also biasing your answer toward no connection).
If you’re waiting for statistical proof, you’ll be waiting a long time. Of course, when the utility of death by brain cancer is minus infinity, I’m not sure why you’d wait for statistical proof.
I believe in God, everything else I run through a probabilistic expected utility calculation.So you believe any wild ass claim, as long as it's about something serious? Is that what you're saying? Because that's what you just wrote, and is how quackery gets sold.
I don’t think that’s gonna fit on a license plate...I believe in God, everything else I run through a probabilistic expected utility calculation.
Article in yesterday's online Globe (Jan 27), "Did alleged sign stealing affect your DraftKings results? This Mass. lawyer is suing MLB over it." It's in today's print edition under "Suit targets MLB scandal."You're talking about cheating the gamblers out of money, not cheating an opponent out of a win. The home-run championship hypothetical you're bringing up is an example of a completely unintended consequence of gambling-motivated decisions, not of an intended victory achieved by cheating.
Whit Merrifield was not an All-Star because José Altuve was (in 2017). Aaron Judge did not win the MVP because José Altuve did and things like this. So now Whit Merrifield, when he goes to sign his long-term extension, doesn’t have “All-Star” next to his name. “All-Star” probably makes him a lot more valuable in arbitration, which perhaps makes him not sign that deal or maybe sign the deal for that many more million dollars. Aaron Judge doesn’t have “MVP” next to his name. What is he worth in his first year of arbitration? That’s millions of dollars. The trajectory of the career, too. It’s not the first time where it’s a million or two, but then the next year it’s two or three and the next year after that, it’s four or five
Someone *did* get DFA'd and is no longer in MLB. There's a lawsuit filed by Mike Bolsinger, former TOR relief pitcher whose last appearance in baseball was in Minute Maid Park against the Astros, and who gave up 4 hits, 4 ER and a HR in one-third of an inning. He was a journeyman trying to hang on as a reliever, was DFA'd after the game, and is no longer playing baseball.What about the people that lose out on millions of dollars and their whole career trajectory has changed? What about the people who don’t get signed at a certain position because someone who knew what pitches were coming took that position? What if someone gets DFA’d because there is just no more room for them?
It was happening before that.Many people here saying they don't consider steroids such an issue because "everyone was on them". You know who else was on them? High school athletes emulating their heroes. As someone who went to HS in the mid 90's, I can confirm first hand that this damaged some kids I knew well.
Well I'm sure it was, I can only speak from my experience. I'm not sure when it started or when it peaked.It was happening before that.
If this leads to all drums being removed from Baseball stadia (i.e. in Oakland and Cleveland), this will have all been worthwhile.A month later and the (dismissively-worded) poll option "banging on a drum" and the subsequent fallout has become a far more serious issue with many non-Astros players.