By proxy, Wasdin takes Chris Faulk, RT out of LSU who was hurt this year.
PM sent to SPDougie
PM sent to SPDougie
RealFantasy Pigskin 2013: Draft and Discussion
- Thread starter Morgan's Magic Snowplow
- Start date
I feel like our D is going to be able to matchup against any scheme.
Between our FS, 2 CB's, and linebackers we have 5 guys who are good in coverage (or at least should be given their college record). We'll still add a SS and a SAM to the mix. It might even be possible to do adequately against the run in our nickle set given who we have so far. This D is going to be insane and they'll need to be given that we are still taking tryouts for QB.
Between our FS, 2 CB's, and linebackers we have 5 guys who are good in coverage (or at least should be given their college record). We'll still add a SS and a SAM to the mix. It might even be possible to do adequately against the run in our nickle set given who we have so far. This D is going to be insane and they'll need to be given that we are still taking tryouts for QB.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
I am. Your defense is an abortion, even with JJ Watt. You forced a bunch of 1-gap players into a 2-gap scheme.
ragnarok725 said:Brandon Flowers is going to force a lot of throws at the #2 CB. I was really hoping to grab Derek Cox for that side, but just a few picks late here. Instead, the LA Rams will continue the youth movement by dipping back into the draft pool and selecting CB Desmond Trufant.
I'm actually pretty surprised Trufant's around for me here. Most projections I've seen have had Trufant (after running sub-4.4) battling it out with Xavier Rhodes for the 2nd CB taken. He'll probably be the 3rd, but I think solidly in the first round. And Rhodes was taken 5 rounds ago.
Trufant has the right size (at 6 feet even, 185), speed (sub-4.4), and cover skills. He looked like a stud at the Senior Bowl where he earned raves for his play at the line of scrimmage and route anticipation and awareness. He backed that up by throwing up some pretty big numbers at the Combine. Scouting reports have him as a bit of a soft tackler, but I think improvement and growth can happen there moreso than in some of the other more instinctual areas of the games. He's also got the name. I'm hoping the third Trufant is as prolific relative to his brothers as the third Gronkowski.
EDIT - MMS PM'd.
Really good value here.
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Another good value. First round tackle before the ACL.
SMU_Sox said:
It's the best IMO. I think you could have done even better though.
Super Nomario said:
Not going to read that, but I assume you're referring to a 1-gap 3-4. That's the best scheme he could pick, but it's still a little light, and Brockers isn't a nose tackle in any scheme. He's too tall to play inside of the guards.
I don't seem to get an e-mail notification on PM's anymore and am busy, apologize for the holdup though, the pick will be up shortly.
You should read it; Greg Cosell is great. His main point is that there's very little difference between a 3-4 with a dedicated rush OLB and a 4-3 under front.phragle said:
Greg Cosell said:
The Chargers select:
Kaluka Maiva, OLB
After a fairly decent season last year was signed this off-season to start on the strong side for the Raiders. With the talent at OLB being so thin I think he can add to my team, especially with the ability to cover at the LB position to help make up for Spikes' big deficiency.
Kaluka Maiva, OLB
After a fairly decent season last year was signed this off-season to start on the strong side for the Raiders. With the talent at OLB being so thin I think he can add to my team, especially with the ability to cover at the LB position to help make up for Spikes' big deficiency.
Super Nomario said:
I'm not going to read it because it's too long and I probably know everything it says, not because I don't like Cosell. I like Cosell, his opinions are original, he watches actual film, not recorded TV games or Youtube videos, and he's not a pretentious D bag.
With our 15th round pick, the Jnai Dolphins wanted to add a veteran to help lead such a young team. One of the most valuable spots you can have an experienced player is right in the middle of a defense. After grabbing a young MLB in Donald Butler last round, we're going to provide him with a bad-ass partner in the middle to teach him the ropes. While he's a little long in the tooth (31), MLB is one position where you can have some longevity if you've got the smarts and this guy showed last season that he can still play. Despite moving from his conventional 3-4 to a 4-3 for the first time in his career, he still put up monster tackle numbers (134 total). We're planning on putting him back into a 3-4 defense where he's succeeded for most of his career, but we're very happy to add another versatile player to our defensive front 7.
And while the Miami Dolphins decided they could live without this guy, the Jnai Dolphins recognize their stupidity and welcome back: MLB Karlos Dansby
And while the Miami Dolphins decided they could live without this guy, the Jnai Dolphins recognize their stupidity and welcome back: MLB Karlos Dansby
With their 15th round pick, the Varmint Cong select Denarius Moore, WR.
Contemplating his future in this offense. He's got a decent set of hands, is still young, and ready to break out.
PM Sent to Dgilpin
Contemplating his future in this offense. He's got a decent set of hands, is still young, and ready to break out.
PM Sent to Dgilpin
phragle said:
I think you're missing the point a little here. He's big enough to demand a double team which is going to open up gaps for the pass rush. He's not much taller than some other guys who are in the same scheme. Good luck passing over the middle if he decides to raise his arms.
No, you're missing the point. His length works against him as the anchor in the middle; to draw a double team while pass rushing (i.e. blasting through one gap between two players and forcing both to engage) is a very different manuever than engaging two blockers who are firing forward into you, holding ground and pushing both backwards to "stuff" the run.Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Brockers is a fantastic interior DT if his job is to split two defenders on his way up the field to the QB. Brockers is sub-optimal if he tries to do that on running downs, as smart interior linemen will use that aggressiveness to ride him out of position, creating a running lane OR they'll simply double team him and push him backwards due to the strength advantage.
Your approach will lead to half dozen or more BIG gains on the ground, up the middle, per game. It's why despite guys like Brockers being good at one of the roles on the interior DL, no one expects him to fill a role like Vince Wilfork, Athyba Rubin, Haloti Ngata or BJ Raji.
The Cosell piece linked above does a really good job pointing out how the edge responsibilities have evolved but didn't mention the NTs that do the dirty work of a defense like this.
The problem is you drafted three DEs (Watt, Werner, Jones) and only one DT (Brockers), and with a light set of linebackers too.
Sure Watt can do what ever he damn pleases, but if you play him inside or make him 2-gap, then your handcuffing his abilitity. You need Watt unleashed.
Jones isn't nearly stout enough be be a 3 down tackle. He's more of a LDE that can move inside on passing situations.
Brockers isn't going to be as effective inside of the guards for reasons discussed earlier.
You really just need to draft the best available DT, run only a 4 man front, and use Jones as an interior sub rusher.
Sure Watt can do what ever he damn pleases, but if you play him inside or make him 2-gap, then your handcuffing his abilitity. You need Watt unleashed.
Jones isn't nearly stout enough be be a 3 down tackle. He's more of a LDE that can move inside on passing situations.
Brockers isn't going to be as effective inside of the guards for reasons discussed earlier.
You really just need to draft the best available DT, run only a 4 man front, and use Jones as an interior sub rusher.
RSPWP just finished round 7:
[table RSPWP Round 7]RSPWP SoSH Pos Name Team 193 302 DL Desmond Bryant CLE 194 118 DL Darnell Dockett ARI 195 175 WR Roddy White ATL 196 427 LT Jonathan Martin MIA 197 234 CB Tarell Brown SF 198 QB Carson Palmer OAK 199 196 WR Torrey Smith BAL 200 207 LG Andy Levitre TEN 201 105 C Mike Pouncey MIA 202 181 WR Antonio Brown PIT 203 279 WR Reggie Wayne IND 204 271 DE Lamarr Houston OAK 205 204 C Alex Mack CLE 206 177 CB Kareem Jackson HOU 207 298 LT Riley Reiff DET 208 90 RB LeSean McCoy PHI 209 127 WR Josh Gordon CLE 210 189 LB Akeem Ayers TEN 211 158 C John Sullivan MIN 212 228 C Chris Myers HOU 213 68 S Harrison Smith MIN 214 71 LB Derrick Johnson KC 215 183 RG Jahri Evans NO 216 288 G/C Stefen Wisniewski OAK 217 255 CB Sean Smith KC 218 226 WR Stevie Johnson BUF 219 331 DT Dontari Poe KC 220 210 CB Aqib Talib NE 221 342 CB Prince Amukamara NYG 222 264 CB Tim Jennings CHI 223 174 DE/OLB Cliff Avril SEA 224 323 WR Kendall Wright TEN
Top guys from our draft they haven't taken yet: Arian Foster (28), Jerod Mayo (66), Alfred Morris (89), Alex Smith (95), Jake Locker (106), Thomas DeCoud (121), Tyvon Branch (122), Nick Foles (132), Linval Joseph (138), Sean Weatherspoon (139)
[table RSPWP Round 7]
Top guys from our draft they haven't taken yet: Arian Foster (28), Jerod Mayo (66), Alfred Morris (89), Alex Smith (95), Jake Locker (106), Thomas DeCoud (121), Tyvon Branch (122), Nick Foles (132), Linval Joseph (138), Sean Weatherspoon (139)
See, where you think his length is a liability I see it as an advatage. If he slips one arm free he can arm tackle most guys in the run game. We're not talking about a 6'8" 285 lb DT the guys 6'5" and probably damn close to 330. He's a mmamoth human being with a versatile skill set. Just because he isn't the protypical plobby NT doesn't mean he's going to hinder that aspect of the game. Every one of the guys I drafted for my defense has versatility. My front line guys can all play tackle or end. Ayers can do it all, and his pass rush skills are becoming pretty damn good. Werner (who has already said he plays better under 260lbs) is going to be my pass rush specialist, and I'm going to line him up on either side and if I don't send him he's going to set the edge. Kuechly excels in coverage and he's a tackling machine, and Kendricks is almost a hybrid SS. I don't see any way a runner is going to make it to the second level of this D, nevermind break through the middle for a big gain.soxfan121 said:
phragle said:
I didn't think my LB's were light other than Kendricks obviously, who actually weighs more than your MLB.
I don't think there's anyway to handcuff Watts ability. The guys a freak. If I'm rushing Watt and Werner from the same side... good luck.
I think Jones is going to end up bulking up a little, he has the frame for it so I'm not concerned with how he is now rather than what he projects to be. He's only a rookie. I agree with your assesment for the time being though and that was my plan to deploy him as such.
Again, I disagree with Brockers ability, but I feel there's an impasse there and we don't need to debate in circles. We'll just agree to disagree.
I feel like I've built a sort of hybrid 1 gap 3-4 that acts like a 4-3 most of the time. I picked athletic and versatile players so that I can build confusion with lining up in different sets, or lining up in the same set and bring pressure from anywhere. Speed, agility and explosiveness were key components in who I picked because I'm trying to create something to counter the new forms of offense with mobile QB's and faster guys in skill positions. I feel like I've done that so far. I know it's a little unorthodox, but I think it's going to work beautifully.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Damn, you are really stubborn. Myself, ElCab, Phragle, and SF121 have all made this argument now. At some point, maybe you should consider that we (and everybody else) might be right and you might be wrong?
This is what a 3-4 NT or 1 technique run stuffer looks like. Its not just about listed height/weight, its also about body type. Do you see the size of Casey Hampton's ass? Its fucking huge. He's not just 330 pounds but he's got a super low center of gravity and all that weight is in his ass, his legs, and his gut. And that's where the weight needs to be if you're going to plant yourself and not go anywhere when two other huge guys on the other team are trying to push you backward.
Now look at Michael Brockers, who is a freakish physical specimen but who has a completely different body type with a high center of gravity. He's got a massive, Shaq-like frame and upper body. But he's not going to get low, plant his legs, and occupy real estate.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
You've given yourself away here. Whenever someone starts inventing random play scenarios like this, the game's up.
If all else fails resort to fat jokes. Thanks for the bulletin board material. I'm taking my bubble butt amd going home.
Kidding aside look at Glenn Dorsey too. Basically look at the top run stuff interior linemen and you'll see 75% of them look like that. Pear shaped, bubble butted, etc.
Kidding aside look at Glenn Dorsey too. Basically look at the top run stuff interior linemen and you'll see 75% of them look like that. Pear shaped, bubble butted, etc.
Mystic Merlin said:
Whenever someone starts talking about shit that only happens in video games, it's time to stop. One armed tackles of RBs hitting the hole happen pretty frequently when playing Madden on Easy or when LSU is playing Podunk Technical College. Otherwise, they just don't. Not when the guy with the super arm tackling ability is being doubled teamed by a guard and a center and being pushed away from the gap.
Brockers could be versatile and very sucessful in a 3-4 or 4-3. This guy is almost exactly the same build as Richard Seymour, and Seymour has thrived in both the 3-4 and 4-3.
He could certainly still be strong enough/physical enough to take on double teams. The problem is, and I agree with what everyone else here is saying...he's not a 3-4 NT. He could make a very good 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. The problem with the tall guys isn't just the leverage issue (which is a concern, especially against double teams). It's how much easier they are to go low and dive at to knock out of a play. It's their first punch step, which is generally slower because of the length of their arms and legs.
I think you have a few players on your team who are very versatile, but whiffed on finding the one cog who can jam up plays in the A gap. There are still some guys out there, but I think I have to agree with the crowd. Brockers doesn't appear to be a great fit for a 3-4 NT.
He could certainly still be strong enough/physical enough to take on double teams. The problem is, and I agree with what everyone else here is saying...he's not a 3-4 NT. He could make a very good 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. The problem with the tall guys isn't just the leverage issue (which is a concern, especially against double teams). It's how much easier they are to go low and dive at to knock out of a play. It's their first punch step, which is generally slower because of the length of their arms and legs.
I think you have a few players on your team who are very versatile, but whiffed on finding the one cog who can jam up plays in the A gap. There are still some guys out there, but I think I have to agree with the crowd. Brockers doesn't appear to be a great fit for a 3-4 NT.
Glenn Dorsey:
Vince Wilfork
Jurrell Casey:
Brandon Mebane:
Justin Bannan (Token White guy)
Ahtyba Rubin:
These guys are 6'01'' to 6'03'' and weight 300+ pounds and almost all have a low center of gravity and thick builds.
Vince Wilfork
Jurrell Casey:
Brandon Mebane:
Justin Bannan (Token White guy)
Ahtyba Rubin:
These guys are 6'01'' to 6'03'' and weight 300+ pounds and almost all have a low center of gravity and thick builds.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Lee has bulked up since entering the league. He's around 245-250 now.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Handcuff may have been the wrong word, but I did preface it with "Watt can do what ever he damn pleases". My point is that he won't be quite the same player if he's forced to 2-gap or play inside. He'll still be damn good, but he won't be the same unstoppable force he is now. Especially if you make him 2-gap. If you draft a player like Watt 4th overall, you have build the rest of the defense around him and his strengths, which is one-gap end.
Otherwise it's just a waste and you would have been better off with Romo.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
I feel like you tried to do that, but ended up with a defense that is easy to run on. A bit like the Colts. My game plan vs your defense would be simple - find Watt and run it where he isn't.
Super Nomario said:
Of course.
Oh, christ. Madden on easy? Wilfork does it all the time and he looks like a T-Rex.soxfan121 said:
Morgan's Magic Snowplow said:
Yeah, I'm sorry about that, I am honestly ridiculously stubborn. It's really not about right and wrong though, you guys are saying it's not prototypical, and I agree with you.
A snippet from a story I read before drafting him:
Now the Rams play a 4-3 with the other tackle next to him about the same size as either Watt or Jones, and if I move Werner to either Watts side or Jones side he effectively becomes my other defensive end and both Watt and Jones can handle bringing pressure from the inside. I feel like I'm repeating myself but it's not really a "3-4", that lineup is a smokescreen.
phragle said:
I'm using Watts versatility and playing him both ways. Why does it have to be just one way or the other?
If you run away from Watt, you still have to deal with Brockers, Jones, Ayers, Kuechly, Kendricks, Smith and possibly Werner if he's lined up opposite of Watt. You're not going to get very far.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
And what we're saying is that your smokescreen is useless. Your personnel and alignment is 4-3. You have made Watt into a DT, and paired him with a similar, disrputive interior pass rusher the way Detroit has used Suh & Fairley (and the departed Hill). And you've even got a rotational guy to replicate Hill with Jones. Your pass rushing DEs are good pass rushing DEs. Your LBs will work in a 4-3 set.
So stop selling us on the smokescreen we've all seen through.
phragle's critique of how you've hemmed in Watt to a role, rather than being a freelance nightmare is an excellent one.
If you want more versatility just draft a big ol' run plugging DT too. That will give you a lot more flexibility with what you can do and be a good fall-back plan if your 3-4 smokescreen or 4-3 doesn't work as well as you'd like against the run. Then none of us really have any arguments because you have depth and positional flexibility.
Yeah but Eck the criticism wasn't that Watt couldn't be an effective DT it was that you didn't have an effective DT who could stop the run. What Watt does in a dime (obvious passing) defense at DT has nothing to do with how Watt and Brockers would do as exclusive DT's or how Brockers would be as an NT in a 3-4 against the run.
Not necessarily defending Eck here - but genuinely curious: Watt currently plays in a 1 Gap-3-4 under Wade Phillips anyways, right? While also shifting around to interior positions in sub packages. Brockers may not fit the traditional notion of a NT, but Watt lines up next to Earl Mitchell or Shaun Cody and across from Antonio Smith, with Werner essentially filling the same roll as Connor Barwin, correct?
So really the difference between how Eck is playing Watt vs. Houston is playing him (if we assume Werner is approx. the same as Barwin) is Brockers & Jones vs. Mitchell/Cody & Smith. I don't particularly think of any of those three players as stout run defenders, and while Cody & Mitchell look more like prototypical NTs, they also are both under 300lbs.
Considering Eck had the chance to build a defense from scratch that highlighted Watt's strengths, whereas Houston is limited by real world roster construction - Eck might have been able to build a better fit & scheme than the one he did, but I don't think it's that far off from the defense Watt currently plays in, and that didn't seem to hamstring him much this last year..
I'm not as well informed on this stuff as others are though. So I'm looking forward to an explanation of why Brockers + Jones is substantively worse than Mitchell/Cody + Smith.
So really the difference between how Eck is playing Watt vs. Houston is playing him (if we assume Werner is approx. the same as Barwin) is Brockers & Jones vs. Mitchell/Cody & Smith. I don't particularly think of any of those three players as stout run defenders, and while Cody & Mitchell look more like prototypical NTs, they also are both under 300lbs.
Considering Eck had the chance to build a defense from scratch that highlighted Watt's strengths, whereas Houston is limited by real world roster construction - Eck might have been able to build a better fit & scheme than the one he did, but I don't think it's that far off from the defense Watt currently plays in, and that didn't seem to hamstring him much this last year..
I'm not as well informed on this stuff as others are though. So I'm looking forward to an explanation of why Brockers + Jones is substantively worse than Mitchell/Cody + Smith.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
The Cosell piece neglects to mention the NT that is in use in every single defense discussed in the piece.
Earl Mitchell is the base defense NT for the Texans, Terrell McClain is his backup and Antonio Smith and Jared Crick share the DE snaps, both of whom lineup inside to help free Watt from interior double teams. That's 4 guys who are as big or bigger. Your DEs aren't that big, can't slide inside and expect to do much.
SMU is right. You're missing one piece - an unspectacular one at that - and then you can call it whatever you want. Otherwise, it's run away from Watt and at Brockers with a double team for 6-9 yards every time.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Maybe a graphic or front 7 depth chart would help. Preferably with line techniques and gap assignments.
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
They have good noses for the ball and are good tacklers, but they're too light and consequently easy to block. That's why defenses have nose tackles. You can't move them.
sleepyjose03 said:
It's not just the line though. Eck's LBs are lighter than Houston's (2012) by 30 pounds.
It's a standard, 1-gap, 4-3 defense.
Edit: And it needs a nose tackle (1 tech)
Well, since I'm likely not to have a backup DE why don't we just use Smith for comparison since he's bigger than Crick. He's the same size as Jones and Jones is expected to excel at moving inside something he did all through college. As far as Earl Mitchell goes, he's two inches shorter and about 30 lbs lighter than Brockers and I wouldn't exactly call him "thick in the middle." You've basically made my case for me. Check out the scouting reports on Mitchell and ask yourself how big of a pants tent would Wade Phillips have if he had Brockers there.soxfan121 said:
I'm not sure where you're getting my LBs are light? Ayers is the same size as their weak side linebacker, my MLB's are the same size as theirs with the exception of Kendricks being shorter, and Werner is close to the same size as Barwin.phragle said:
Ayers - 254
Kuechly - 232
Kendricks - 239
Werner - 266
Total - 991
Reed - 257
Cushing - 255
James - 240
Barwin - 268
Total - 1020
Kuechly - 232
Kendricks - 239
Werner - 266
Total - 991
Reed - 257
Cushing - 255
James - 240
Barwin - 268
Total - 1020
Eck'sSneakyCheese said:
Brockers > Mitchell at some things. Except for the one thing you stubbornly will not get, no matter how many times or ways or people say it.
Brockers & Watt are very similar body types. Brockers and Mitchell or Brockers and Rubin or Brockers and Hampton or Brockers and Ted Motherfucking Washington are not even close to the same thing. Wade Phillips understands this, which is why despite the glaring differences between Mitchell and Brockers on paper in their scouting reports, Earl Mitchell is the NT in his defense on 1st & 2nd downs.
The word is leverage. Your smokescreen isn't employed in the NFL without a plug in the middle.
DE - JJ Watt - B
DT - Michael Brockers - A
DE - Datone Jones - B
SLB - Bjoern Werner - C
ILB - Luke Kuechly - Wherever
ILB - Mychal Kendricks - Opposite A of DT
WLB - Akeem Ayers - C
DT - Michael Brockers - A
DE - Datone Jones - B
SLB - Bjoern Werner - C
ILB - Luke Kuechly - Wherever
ILB - Mychal Kendricks - Opposite A of DT
WLB - Akeem Ayers - C
Where did you get Kuechly at 232? He's more like 245.phragle said:
Edit: And Cushing was out after week 5... I was using his replacement
soxfan121 said:
You really need to take my advice and go look at a pic or read a scouting report or 2 on Earl Mitchell. You're kidding yourself if you think he's anything close to Rubin, Hampton or Washington. He came out of college as an undersized DT who couldn't handle the run. Not a guy I would be basing your argument on.