Red Sox, Sandoval and the Giants

[soxhop411]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/03/25/pablo-sandoval-red-sox-giants-phone-number/70420466/

Good article by USA Today, and you wont believe who is mentoring Pablo on his weight

Spoiler

Ortiz

Sandoval has landed on a team that can also claim three World Series titles in the 2000s, although over a longer stretch. The Red Sox ended their epic championship drought in 2004 and also won in 2007 and 2013. The one constant in those clubs was Ortiz, who can compare not only rings but also World Series MVP trophies with Sandoval.

They also have weight issues in common. The 6-3 Ortiz said he put on extra weight as his metabolism slowed down in his early 30s, so he dropped 30 pounds one offseason six or seven years ago and typically plays at 260. Now he's sharing his wisdom with Sandoval.
"I've been getting after Pablo about that,'' Ortiz said. "Because Pablo is very agile, but he's 28 now. If he doesn't take care of himself, in a couple of years he could lose that agility overnight. So I'm talking to him about eating better, because if you want to stay in this game, you have to take care of yourself.''

Of course, it's one thing to get that message from a highly respected peer like Ortiz, another one to hear it from your bosses.

Sandoval acknowledged he was irritated by what he considered the Giants' harping on his weight, which tended to increase significantly during the season, hampering his defensive range. He pointed out the Red Sox have hired a nutritionist and he's trying to pay heed, but conceded the results don't show so far. He wouldn't reveal where the scales stop, saying simply he's comfortable at his current weight.

Sandoval is pleased the Red Sox have not made an issue of his weight, and they smartly refrained from bringing up the topic while pursuing him in the offseason.

more at the above link

 

[gaelgirl]

If you're a Red Sox fan, this should be terrifying: 
 
"I'm a professional and I know what I have to do,'' said Sandoval, listed as 5-11 and 255. "I know where I've failed and how I've grown up. If I had signed (with the Giants), I knew I would be under a (weight) regimen for five years, and I'm not going to be happy someplace where I'm under that kind of regimen, where I can't be myself.''
 
Let me note that the Giants ultra-restrictive, high-pressure "regimen" that he didn't want to be forced to endure included at least two years where he ballooned up to 280+ pounds. Now that he's free to "be himself," do you really trust him to stay on track? Pablo Sandoval has been talking about his increased maturity and commitment to staying in shape for years. The proof is in what shape he actually maintains. 
 
Good luck, Boston. 

 

[JimBoSox9]

The proof is in his ability to stay on the field and produce, not meet my standards for corner infielder svelteness.  

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

We're not selling jeans here.
 
If he produces, who cares what he weighs?

 

[TigerBlood]

We're not selling jeans here.
 
If he produces, who cares what he weighs?

I mean you're right that we shouldn't care what his weight is as long as he's producing, but does the real issue actually need to be spelled out? Higher weight = higher chance of injury and he can't produce if he's on the DL. They just want him to do everything possible to make sure he's on the field in the second half of this contract.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

He should be accountable for performance like all professional athletes or entertainers.
He is making a ton of money and that comes with responsibilities to your employer, your teammates and to the fans.
Papi shouldn't have to counsel him.
What happens in a couple of years when David is gone? 

 

[Ferm Sheller]

He should be accountable for performance like all professional athletes or entertainers.
He is making a ton of money and that comes with responsibilities to your employer, your teammates and to the fans.
Papi shouldn't have to counsel him.
What happens in a couple of years when David is gone? 

 
More food at the buffet for Sandoval???

 

[EvilEmpire]

What happens in a couple of years when David is gone?

He moves to DH and really lets himself go.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I know we like to be positive around here, but this guy has without doubt fought a weight problem He then states he left a place where he was successful, and offers that a significant reason was to get away from the Giants weight control regimen. There is no way that is good news.Increased weight ins't just an injury concern, weight affects performance, especially in the field. Hopefully he will be a good player this isn't nothing.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Fenway concession idea - a bag of warm cookies - "Panda Sandovals" - Panda shaped Pecan Sandies. 

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

All I get out of the story is that Sandoval didn't appreciate the Giants' approach to his weight, calling it "harping", not that he doesn't care at all about his weight and intends to pack on the pounds now that he's in Boston.  Perhaps the more subtle approach of the team providing a nutritionist (which he says he's trying to pay heed to) and letting Ortiz do the "harping" will prove to be a more effective approach.
 
Bottom line is he's never going to be svelt.  If he's "comfortable" and productive, that's fine.  Clearly the light came on for Ortiz and he adjusted his diet/workout to control his weight as he aged...no reason to think it can't happen for Sandoval too.

 

[glennhoffmania]

He's in mediocre shape and swings at more pitches than AJ Pierzynski. Doesn't seem like he's the kind of guy that will age well, but time will tell. Of course they aren't complaining about his weight a few months after they signed him; but if he plays poorly and / or gets hurt, I'm sure the media won't be kind.

 
Who cares what the media says? 
 
The guy is 28 years old and is signed for 5 years.  I'm not overly concerned about his aging process in his late 20s and early 30s.  It's not like they signed a fat 35 year old for 5 years.

 

[Reggie's Racquet]

Fenway concession idea - a bag of warm cookies - "Panda Sandovals" - Panda shaped Pecan Sandies. 

$22.95 for 25lb bag.

 

[glennhoffmania]

I don't care what the media says, but Pablo seems like a guy who might.

No matter his age- the track record on guys who swing at such a high % of pitches, esp. those that aren't strikes, is poor. Hopefully he's an outlier- but I'd be concerned about his future even if he was in great phsyical condition.

 
Ok but that's a different issue than his weight is going to be a problem as he ages. 

 

[Spacemans Bong]

It's not about him getting hurt necessarily, it's that he is a much worse player when he's pushing three bills. His range is less and he grounds into a lot of double plays and hits more ground balls. 
 
I guarantee every Giants fan on this board had alarm bells go off when he confirmed what we've long suspected, that he's mad at the Giants for making an issue about his weight. He could prove us wrong with Papi's help, but it's not a good indication he's taking it seriously. 

 

[EvilEmpire]

Who cares what the media says?

It'll be OK. Everyone loves hitters who are comfortable around a plate.

 

[SoxJox]

He moves to DH and really lets himself go.

Actually, there is an element of truth here.  I can see him falling right into Papi's vacancy, which can't be far off - certainly within the 5 years represented by Panda's contract.  Arguing against this, of course, is the career production numbers:
 
Ortiz:                  .285 / .379 / . 547 / .926
Sandoval:          .294 / . 346 / .465 / .811
 
Sandoval doesn't quite measure up to Ortiz, and likely would not fit the typical DH profile (which I think most would consider to include a higher number of HRs than what Panda produces).  On the plus side, he is a switch hitter, so likely no shift to take some hits away.

 

[theapportioner]

All I get out of the story is that Sandoval didn't appreciate the Giants' approach to his weight, calling it "harping", not that he doesn't care at all about his weight and intends to pack on the pounds now that he's in Boston.  Perhaps the more subtle approach of the team providing a nutritionist (which he says he's trying to pay heed to) and letting Ortiz do the "harping" will prove to be a more effective approach.
 
Bottom line is he's never going to be svelt.  If he's "comfortable" and productive, that's fine.  Clearly the light came on for Ortiz and he adjusted his diet/workout to control his weight as he aged...no reason to think it can't happen for Sandoval too.

 
Yeah, there are ways to "nudge" Sandoval into making healthier food choices without being overtly coercive, the latter of which was maybe what was going on in SF. I wonder if his episodes of ballooning in SF are associated with any downturn in offensive stats or DL stints.

 

[grimshaw]

Let's just get the damn season going, hope he gets off to a good start so we don't have to hear the usual garbage, and not worry about 2018 until 2017. He's going to be "fat" when he isn't hitting, and Shank needs an article.  And we'll probably have some sort of shitty dance named after him either replacing or being incorporated with the Wally Wave.

 

[theapportioner]

Actually, there is an element of truth here.  I can see him falling right into Papi's vacancy, which can't be far off - certainly within the 5 years represented by Panda's contract.  Arguing against this, of course, is the career production numbers:
 
Ortiz:                  .285 / .379 / . 547 / .926
Sandoval:          .294 / . 346 / .465 / .811
 
Sandoval doesn't quite measure up to Ortiz, and likely would not fit the typical DH profile (which I think most would consider to include a higher number of HRs than what Panda produces).  On the plus side, he is a switch hitter, so likely no shift to take some hits away.

 
Off topic, but I'd like to see a rotating DH slot once the Ortiz era is over. Would help with any positional roster crunches and give people periodic rest.

 

[SoxJox]

It'll be OK. Everyone loves hitters who are comfortable around a plate.

Especially pitchers who throw with purpose to hitters who become "too" comfortable around the plate.  Although neither Panda nor Big Papi seem to have become the object of that purpose.  Papi = 36 HBP over his 18-year career.  Panda = 7 over his 7-year career.

 

[Rasputin]

Especially pitchers who throw with purpose to hitters who become "too" comfortable around the plate.  Although neither Panda nor Big Papi seem to have become the object of that purpose.  Papi = 36 HBP over his 18-year career.  Panda = 7 over his 7-year career.

 
He was making a fat joke, son.
 
I think that even those of us who were in favor of the signing are well aware that it could get ugly later.

 

[SoxJox]

 
He was making a fat joke, son.
 
I think that even those of us who were in favor of the signing are well aware that it could get ugly later.

Yes...I know he was making a joke.  But it did make me curious to look at the numbers anyway.  So I looked.  No need to poke.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Actually, there is an element of truth here.  I can see him falling right into Papi's vacancy, which can't be far off - certainly within the 5 years represented by Panda's contract.  Arguing against this, of course, is the career production numbers:
 
Ortiz:                  .285 / .379 / . 547 / .926
Sandoval:          .294 / . 346 / .465 / .811
 
Sandoval doesn't quite measure up to Ortiz, and likely would not fit the typical DH profile (which I think most would consider to include a higher number of HRs than what Panda produces).  On the plus side, he is a switch hitter, so likely no shift to take some hits away.

 
 
Not sure how relevant career numbers are, especially at the end of a career. How about what Ortiz did in Boston?
 

290

.387

.567

.954
Also you realize those totals include the shift right? Sandoval is nowhere near the hitter Ortiz has been. His value is in being able to play 3b, and hit well above average. The end of his contract will likely be ugly, but it is the price needed to get him for the next two or three years.

 

[SoxJox]

 
 
Not sure how relevant career numbers are, especially at the end of a career. How about what Ortiz did in Boston?
 
290 .387 .567 .954
Also you realize those totals include the shift right? Sandoval is nowhere near the hitter Ortiz has been. His value is in being able to play 3b, and hit well above average. The end of his contract will likely be ugly, but it is the price needed to get him for the next two or three years.

To be sure, it wasn't a deep data dive.  You point about Ortiz' performance in Boston is well taken.  I did at least acknowledge potential effects of the shift with the comment regarding Panda being a switch hitter, but again your point is spot on -> Ortiz's numbers would have been (or at least would have been expected to have been) better without the shift.
 
I too wonder how ugly the last year+ of Sandoval's contract is going to look as he ages, but the first 2-3 hopefully will be fun to watch.

 

[Manramsclan]

The career numbers are interesting, but the comparison is to a probable Hall of Fame DH.  
 
I wonder more how Pablo's career numbers compare to what other teams get out of the DH spot each year.
 
I also agree that using the DH as a spot to rest regulars and play match-ups is wise. The only reason why the Red Sox do what they do is that Ortiz is great. Not a lot of other teams have one guy holding down the DH spot.
 
Rotating Sandoval, Hanley and possibly Craig through that spot is another way to exploit deep depth when Papi is gone.

 

[gryoung]

Off topic, but I'd like to see a rotating DH slot once the Ortiz era is over. Would help with any positional roster crunches and give people periodic rest.

Same with me. This seems to be the trend anyway. There aren't too many Ortiz- types left where they DH full time and only play the field in a handful of games. Rotating that slot provides some flexibility with the roster.

 

[nvalvo]

I guarantee every Giants fan on this board had alarm bells go off when he confirmed what we've long suspected, that he's mad at the Giants for making an issue about his weight. He could prove us wrong with Papi's help, but it's not a good indication he's taking it seriously. 

 
TOTALLY. I entirely expected Sandoval to leave SF in free agency, and thought it was really bizarre that the press all assumed he was happy there. He's an upbeat, affable guy, but he was obviously really wounded by all the attention to his weight. If the Sox can handle these matters more sensitively and discreetly, I think that would suit him. 
 
Also, these comparisons of unadjusted slashlines are pretty much nonsense, given that Ortiz has played only in hitter's parks (well, the old Metrodome had really weird park factors) and in a division full of hitter's parks with one standout pitcher's park in TB. Sandoval has played in a pitcher's park in SF in a division full of them, with the exception of the ultimate hitter's park in Denver — where he's even hit for the cycle!
 

 
(Yup, he concluded that cycle in only six innings. Rockies, huh?)
 
And that's not even mentioning that Ortiz' numbers are propped up by playing on some of the most bruising offenses in the history of baseball in one of the most pronounced hitters' eras. I don't think Sandoval is quite an Ortiz-level hitter — few are — but let's imagine Panda on the 2007 Red Sox for second before we conclude that. Actually, let's let Baseball-Reference do that for us...
 

 
Let's wait and see what a Sandoval season in Fenway looks like before we decide if he's future DH material. 

 

[mauf]

 
Who cares what the media says? 
 
The guy is 28 years old and is signed for 5 years.  I'm not overly concerned about his aging process in his late 20s and early 30s.  It's not like they signed a fat 35 year old for 5 years.

 
If I showed you Sandoval's numbers without identifying who he was, and I asked you to guess how old he was, you'd guess he was 31. If the Sox gave Sandoval's deal to a player with similar credentials (but a better body) who was three years older, most of us wouldn't hesitate to pan it as a bad signing.
 
 

I know we like to be positive around here, but this guy has without doubt fought a weight problem He then states he left a place where he was successful, and offers that a significant reason was to get away from the Giants weight control regimen. There is no way that is good news.Increased weight ins't just an injury concern, weight affects performance, especially in the field. Hopefully he will be a good player this isn't nothing.

 
I'm not sure what to make of this. I can't exactly convince myself it's good news that he came here because he thought we'd be OK with him gaining weight, but iirc, his best years came before the Giants put him on that weight management program. If he puts on 30 pounds and is relegated to DH duty in two years, but manages to slug in the high 400s, how do we feel about that?

 

[MakMan44]

 
I'm not sure what to make of this. I can't exactly convince myself it's good news that he came here because he thought we'd be OK with him gaining weight, but iirc, his best years came before the Giants put him on that weight management program. If he puts on 30 pounds and is relegated to DH duty in two years, but manages to slug in the high 400s, how do we feel about that?

Exactly. As long as he's producing, no one is going to care how much he weighs. 

 

[theapportioner]

Exactly. As long as he's producing, no one is going to care how much he weighs. 

 
Hopefully someone will care that obesity is bad for his health...

 

[geoduck no quahog]

Could we just start a "Sandoval Sucks" thread and get it over with, since so many seem to have a better idea of what the Sox are getting into than the front office brain trust did? Then the rest of us could ignore it (like I should have done with this).
 
There may be a few NFL players who might argue with the overweight = poor athleticism meme.

 

[Sprowl]

Could we just start a "Sandoval Sucks" thread and get it over with, since so many seem to have a better idea of what the Sox are getting into than the front office brain trust did? Then the rest of us could ignore it (like I should have done with this).
 
There may be a few NFL players who might argue with the overweight = poor athleticism meme.

 
Not to mention David Wells, Mo Vaughn and other semi-spherical baseball savants.
 
I, for one, welcome our new Panda mascots.

 

[TFisNEXT]

The career numbers are interesting, but the comparison is to a probable Hall of Fame DH.  
 
I wonder more how Pablo's career numbers compare to what other teams get out of the DH spot each year.
 
I also agree that using the DH as a spot to rest regulars and play match-ups is wise. The only reason why the Red Sox do what they do is that Ortiz is great. Not a lot of other teams have one guy holding down the DH spot.
 
Rotating Sandoval, Hanley and possibly Craig through that spot is another way to exploit deep depth when Papi is gone.

 
 
Agreed. We have been spoiled with the production from Papi for over a decade now. He's a monster advantage over other team's DHs. It's amazing to see how much the hitting at that position has declined since 10-15 years ago.
 
 
I suspect some combo of Pablo and other guys who need a rest would be above average at the DH position when Papi finally hangs them up.

 

[reggiecleveland]

Could we just start a "Sandoval Sucks" thread and get it over with, since so many seem to have a better idea of what the Sox are getting into than the front office brain trust did? Then the rest of us could ignore it (like I should have done with this).
 
There may be a few NFL players who might argue with the overweight = poor athleticism meme.

 
Lighten up Francis. Nobody said he was not an athlete.

 

[bakahump]

I'm a chubby (ok fat) guy....so I have no qualms with Pandas Body type, assuming he produces.
 
But THATS the rub.  What SHOULD he produce?  What will keep the critics quiet?  If he is 10% below his career norms the immediate cause de jure will be his weight.  If he hits .340 with 32 HRs, 120 RBIs and   1000 OPS there will be those that say "imagine if he was thinner...".
 
Because production in baseball is by its nature variable....we will always question him and use his weight to do it.
 
It really is no win.   Maybe most of Sosh will be happy with his "Career Norms".   Most of the press wont...and by their influence most fans.....wont.  Pretty bad when we are the voice of reason.
 
I would love to start a thread and ask:
 
What level of production will preclude you from blaming Sandovals weight?

 

[rembrat]

Could we just start a "Sandoval Sucks" thread and get it over with, since so many seem to have a better idea of what the Sox are getting into than the front office brain trust did? Then the rest of us could ignore it (like I should have done with this).

 
Along similar lines, can we start a thread where Giants fans tell us how we should be perceiving Panda's quotes so we can ignore it?

 

[glennhoffmania]

 
If I showed you Sandoval's numbers without identifying who he was, and I asked you to guess how old he was, you'd guess he was 31. If the Sox gave Sandoval's deal to a player with similar credentials (but a better body) who was three years older, most of us wouldn't hesitate to pan it as a bad signing.
 
 
 
 

 
But he's not, and they didn't.  Whether it turns out to be a good signing or not will be determined over the next few years, but people already jumping to a conclusion based on his body type and comments over the way SF felt about his weight management are being a tad ridiculous.

 

[drbretto]

Some people produce when they are happy. It's that simple. For an organization to harp on the guy about his weight is a distraction that outweighs the theoretical value of him being lighter. With some people, you just gotta take the good with the bad as a whole and stop trying to fix everything.
 
Papi expressed similar frustrations with the Twins trying to teach him how to bunt. And you can sit there and explain to me in plain and simple language how Papi would be a better all around player if he knew how to bunt in the right situations. But from his persepective, he's not going to be playing small ball, so if wasting too much time on what he would probably consider bullshit is just going to annoy him. 
 
Papi, Panda and I have one thing in common (besides being fat). This train runs on Mojo. Let us do what we do and don't worry about the little crap. The more weighed down buy the bullshit part of my day I am, the less I can produce what you're actually paying me to do.
 
Now, Ortiz going to Sandoval as a fellow person giving him advice on how the weight issues may end up leading to an issue down the line is completely different. And might actually stand a chance of sinking in. Because it's a guy he trusts who isn't sitting on his own fat ass behind a desk somewhere trying to tell him how to live his life. 

 

[C4CRVT]

This whole discussion irritates me.
 
I understand that "that's message boarding" but it seems like people are lining up a bit early for their "I-told-ya-so internet points."
 
Whether warranted or not, he was pretty off put by the way that the Giants treated the weight issue. Seems like that's turned into a pretty evident two-way street for their fan base. Maybe he'll grow as a person (not like that) and decide that there were some hard truths behind what the Giants were saying through a more positive message that Ortiz is delivering. People are capable of evolving, I'd like to think.
 
I have little hope that the Boston media is going to be any more friendly in their treatment of the issue than anyone in SF was which is a bit aggravating to me. I get the sense that his weight will be blamed for issues regardless of the accuracy of the accusations. Similarly to other players, any of their perceived short-comings are quickly blamed for any physical issues. Overweight, lazy, chicken and beer, stupid, head case etc. Bodies break down. . Some criticisms of players lack of preparation are certainly warranted but sometimes, stuff just happens.
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is: Can we wait until something of meaning happens before we write the postmortem FFS?
 

 

[Lars The Wanderer]

 
Along similar lines, can we start a thread where Giants fans tell us how we should be perceiving Panda's quotes so we can ignore it?

 
My exact reason for not posting to this thread until now. I've watched every single game Pablo has been in for the last 7 years. My opinion still won't make a difference.

 

[MalzoneExpress]

 
My exact reason for not posting to this thread until now. I've watched every single game Pablo has been in for the last 7 years. My opinion still won't make a difference.

 
It may not make a difference, but some of us would like to hear your opinion.
 
Also, I would prefer Pablo looking like Pablo and producing like Pablo rather than looking like Gabe Kapler and producing like Gabe Kapler.

 

[reggiecleveland]

This whole discussion irritates me.
 
 

Me too.
 
I am not sure why people have to fly off to an extreme over basic statements.
 
A few of said we would prefer he had a different attitude towards his weight, and people have gone nuts acting like this is a referendum on the signing.
 

since so many seem to have a better idea of what the Sox are getting into than the front office brain trust did?
 

Can we just retire this call to authority crap? Do we have to turn the fact some of thought the fat guy, who has been a really good player, says he hated the team (where he had been a good player) wanted him to not get fatter, into the idea we are either with Ben or against him. Jesus.

 

[JohntheBaptist]

I think you're probably not as aware of his attitude toward his weight as you think you are. We're aware of his attitude toward the Giants' attitude toward his weight.
 
And of course it amounts to a referendum on the signing. If you're arguing that you can tell he just wants to get fat now, and are assuming that will spell doom for his production--what else would it be?
 
It's an irritating discussion because nothing about those quotes say anything definitive about his future weight, and nothing about his future weight says anything definitive about his production.

 

[reggiecleveland]

 
And of course it amounts to a referendum on the signing. If you're arguing that you can tell he just wants to get fat now, and are assuming that will spell doom for his production--what else would it be?

 
Of course I never said anything like that.