Report: A-Rod banned through 2014?
- Thread starter mabrowndog
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It was a stimulant, not a muscle-enhancing PED. Kind of a cheap shot for a headline.
Expect better from the Post.
Expect better from the Post.
So the news is (was) that A-Rod tested positive for banned stimulant use in 2006. http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/9924143/alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-failed-test-stimulants-2006
But there is no official confirmation: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/a-rod-new-complaint-mlb-leaked-positive-test-06-article-1.1505772
In terms of where we stand:
1) A-Rod's appeal of the 211 day suspension. MLB is done for the moment in front of the arbitrator. A-Rod is currently putting forth his defense/presentation. Proceedings are currently recessed, but begin again on Nov 18th.
2) A-Rod's lawsuit against MLB. First conference on Nov 7th. (This case may never develop into what some consider a "full-blown" lawsuit, with discovery being exchanged.)
So we can expect more sniping in the press throughout Nov, and perhaps into Dec. Yanks will be on the hook of trying to figure out what to do re: replacing A-Rod or not. Best case scenario for the Yanks - an early decision. Worst case, a decision that's made after the free agent options are off the table, or a decision that's made very late.
In some senses the longer this drags on, the worse it becomes for the Yanks and A-Rod.
But there is no official confirmation: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/a-rod-new-complaint-mlb-leaked-positive-test-06-article-1.1505772
In terms of where we stand:
1) A-Rod's appeal of the 211 day suspension. MLB is done for the moment in front of the arbitrator. A-Rod is currently putting forth his defense/presentation. Proceedings are currently recessed, but begin again on Nov 18th.
2) A-Rod's lawsuit against MLB. First conference on Nov 7th. (This case may never develop into what some consider a "full-blown" lawsuit, with discovery being exchanged.)
So we can expect more sniping in the press throughout Nov, and perhaps into Dec. Yanks will be on the hook of trying to figure out what to do re: replacing A-Rod or not. Best case scenario for the Yanks - an early decision. Worst case, a decision that's made after the free agent options are off the table, or a decision that's made very late.
In some senses the longer this drags on, the worse it becomes for the Yanks and A-Rod.
The longer this drags out, the better for the Sox / makes for a harder job for Cashman....
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/04/sports/baseball/in-rodriguez-arbitration-two-sides-play-hardball.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131104&_r=0
I mean, how long do our legal eagles think this could drag out? Into the new year?
TheYaz67 said:
I think the reports are that MLB has finished its case against A-Rod, meaning they've presented the evidence they have (in the form of physical items and testimony) and A-Rod's had his chance to question each witness and challenge each piece of physical evidence.
So after the 18th, A-Rod and Co. will put on their case, if they haven't already begun to do so. MLB will also have a chance to challenge whatever that is.
While I haven't read the rules that govern this arb, there's usually a possibility of a rebuttal phase - where witnesses might be recalled to re-address anything A-Rod raised in his defense.
So, there's really no way to tell. At a rough guess you could say that they're 40-60% there. If you can figure the total amount of time they've been in the arb process - just add that after the 18th (time off for various holidays) and you'll get a possible end date. It started Sept. 30th and ran to Oct 15th or so? That gets us to Thanksgiving or just beyond, depending how much time they want to take off for the holiday.
The Post suggests the same timeframe.
However, there's a deathmatch mentality here, so I'd expect either side to try to draw this out to get any advantage they can. And while the arbitrators are likely paid by the hour and have no real structural incentive from their part to wrap this up quickly, nobody likes to hear information for the fourth or fifth time.
I'm guessing this wraps up in early to mid December, and we get a decision before or after the holidays. Probably no later than mid Jan. I don't see this going as late as Feb under just about any circumstances.
TheYaz67 said:
At the same time, any scenario in which the Yankees don't have to pay his 2014 salary makes things much easier for them than if they had to pay it.
Even if they don't find out until the day before spring training starts, and have to scramble to find someone, it would still be someone who would likely perform better than Rodriguez, and cost a fraction of the price.
terrisus said:
They were in a similar position last year and paid 12 million for Youkillis and got absolutely nothing. What makes you think they do any better this year?. Its hard to project what Arod would do with an offseason of conditioning instead of rehab, and a couple of months of ST under his belt. He put up a 770 OPS last year despite struggling with some physical issues at the end.
The biggest uncertainty is not even Arod though, it's Cano. No way Arod walks away with fewer games than Braun, so the Yankees have to proceed accordingly. Its not like they could not trade any FA signed after June 15. Waiting until Arods decision to shop in the bargain basement of rejects or overpriced free agents represented by Boras makes no sense.
They should just go after Drew or Peralta for SS and plan on moving Jeter to 3B, and if Arod by some miracle gets off with something les than this, him and Jeter can takes turns at 3B/DH. Not that any team giving a 40 yo SS 12 million after a lost season and uncertain future has the brains to do so.
I have a lot of trouble imagining the Yankees moving Jeter off short before the opener in 2014. If it happens, it will be because he suggested it. Given that he allowed A-Rod, who was better defensively at short than Jeter when A-Rod first joined the Yankees, to move to third, and likely feels that he has something to prove after the lost 2013 season, that's very unlikely to happen. Maybe as the season progresses if it's clear that Jeter can't field the position, but not at the start.
So apparently the talks aren't happening again until later this month. There will be a 5 day window for the appeals process, if more time is needed another five day window will have to be rescheduled for later. Once the appeals process is finished, the arbitrator will have 25 days to make a decision. This process is going to last forever.
Can a case then be made that illegally obtained evidence cannot be used as justification for a suspension? Obviously it would be inadmissible in a court of law but what about here? How hilarious would it be if the whole suspension were to be overturned because of that?
And what about the players who already accepted and served their suspensions?
I'd imagine a lawsuit for lost wages unless the players signed away that option during their agreement.
I'd imagine a lawsuit for lost wages unless the players signed away that option during their agreement.
koufax32 said:
I don't know. I imagine the Florida authorities could demand MLB hand over the evidence or face charges, and perhaps they have already done so . Since MLB has already presented their case, which included the evidence, I am not sure what the arbitrator could do, or is required to do. If this was a court, they probably would rule a mistrial and start all over again, but my expertise comes from watching many episodes of Perry Mason.
koufax32 said:
Why couldn't it be admissible in court as part of a prosecution? It wasn't the government that obtained it illegally.
koufax32 said:
I don't think it will have much of an effect. The two issues raised are the authenticity of the records (i.e., did MLB monkey with them) and whatever collateral "character" inferences might be drawn against MLB - namely is this part of a greater pattern of false-dealing which might undermine the credibility of MLB investigators or other testifying witnesses.
I don't see either of these being a big deal. Chain of custody is not an issue provided that Bosch can testify that those are his records and they mean what they mean. As to the animus of the MLB investigators, it's pretty clear they want A-Rod to get stuck with a year suspension. Which seems kind of tame.
***
The interesting thing about the "stolen records" is that they ultimately belong to Biogenesis. A disgruntled employee named Porter Fischer stole them from Biogenesis and then tried to use them to basically better himself - it's unclear whether he wanted to sell them or use them to extort backpay from his former boss (Bosch) at Biogenesis or what. Basically though Fisher made it known to various people he had the goods on Bosch (and by implication ARod.)
So, if the FL Dept of Health wanted the records, they could have simply gone after Fisher or Bosch. (We don't know if they did or not, based on the article.)
Instead the records were stolen by someone and sold to MLB Baseball by a guy named Jones. Then Jones (or someone) got paid for an affidavit or a videotape of Jones selling the records to MLB.
MLB's theory is that Fisher and Jones split the cash from the various sales.
Oddly enough, MLB is most likely in the clear, since they seem to have some kind of defense/indemnification agreement with Bosch. If they purchased the records with Bosch's knowledge and approval, there's no crime on the part of MLB, provided they didn't interfere with the FL Dept. Health Investigation. However, the FL Dept. Health statements basically reek of CYA. To my knowledge, there's no reason they couldn't have kept their investigation open. They're probably getting some backlash for closing things down to a $5000 fine.
The article also suggests there's an ongoing federal investigation into Bosch and his circle. There's also apparently a parallel investigation being done by the Miami State Attorney's Office. I can't really see either going after MLB if MLB is sharing the records with them. Bosch is also probably rolling/cooperating (or will do so.)
Fisher could probably be charged with stealing documents, or dealing in stolen goods, ditto Jones. But you can't charge someone acting as an agent for an owner if they repurchase that owner's stolen goods.
1. Did Bosch report the records as stolen? If not, Fischer would seem to be in the clear in terms of being charged with stealing records. The records would seem in that case to simply have been abandoned by Bosch. OTOH, Fischer did report the records stolen, and Jones apparently stole them from him. So Jones could be charged.
2. Fischer was delivering the documents to FL officials. Jones knew this. Fischer had also just refused MLB's latest offer. MLB bought documents knowing they were stolen and intended for FL officials, impeding an official investigations. Not sure if MLB could be charged, but given MLB teams influence on the FL economy, I doubt they will be even if they could.
It's not hard to imagine MLB encouraging Jones to steal the records to sell to them, without which their case against Arod et all was going nowhere. Of course, the Fischer-Jones being partners theory is plausible as well. No evidence for either one though.
3. Not sure I would call MLB an agent for Bosch, They filed a frivolous law suit and coerced his testimony. Pretty sure Bosch would have preferred the records to have stayed lost/stolen.
2. Fischer was delivering the documents to FL officials. Jones knew this. Fischer had also just refused MLB's latest offer. MLB bought documents knowing they were stolen and intended for FL officials, impeding an official investigations. Not sure if MLB could be charged, but given MLB teams influence on the FL economy, I doubt they will be even if they could.
It's not hard to imagine MLB encouraging Jones to steal the records to sell to them, without which their case against Arod et all was going nowhere. Of course, the Fischer-Jones being partners theory is plausible as well. No evidence for either one though.
3. Not sure I would call MLB an agent for Bosch, They filed a frivolous law suit and coerced his testimony. Pretty sure Bosch would have preferred the records to have stayed lost/stolen.
Sampo Gida said:
I've bolded everything wrong with your post.
You have a couple of good points hidden in there, but mostly it's just wishful thinking or speculation.
It's weird how people do this with the law, yet they don't seem to do it with plumbing. "Well I guess if I just run a pipe from my sink, I can just route it into the rain gutter." But it's about the same level of thoughtfulness.
***
1) The issue is whether or not the records were stolen, not whether Bosch reported them as such. "Reporting" does not make them stolen or not stolen, but it does make it easier to prove that they were stolen at trial (if the defense is, say, I was freely given the records.)
The ultimate issue is ownership. The records were owned by Biogenesis.
A) There is no theory that allows for an employee to steal records from their employer, no matter how unfairly they thought they were treated.
B) If Fisher did not have legitimate ownership, Jones cannot be charged with stealing from Fisher. Jones could be charged with burglary if he damaged Fisher's car in taking the documents, or if he did not have the true owner's permission to get the documents. Jones could also be charged with dealing in stolen goods if he did not have the true owner's permission to obtain the documents, or if he sold them to the true owner knowing they were stolen (which seams to be the case). He can also be charged with theft but the victim is Biogenesis, not Fisher.
Market value would normally present a problem with this kind of theft, but there's already been a market valuation.
2) MLB could be charged with obstruction if they knew that there was an open investigation that wanted those records, and if they bought the records for the purpose of hindering that investigation. Such a charge is unlikely though. It really depends on the timing of the purchase and the exact notice that was given to MLB. Currently there's nothing that's been reported that leads me to believe such a charge would stick. (I mean, it could or it couldn't, but it's not like there's a smoking gun in public knowledge.) Beyond that there's the assessment of the value of prosecution. There's something to be said for charging large corps who may employ illegal activity, but the ultimate target here is Bosch. It looks like both the feds and the state are still investigating and my charge him. So there's not a lot of "ultimate" harm done to the state of FL, vis a vis the records debacle.
3) If the lawsuit was frivolous in FL, Bosch could have pocketed attorney's fees and had substantial protection against discovery costs. However, it was a valid lawsuit and Bosch settled with MLB. Pursuant to that settlement, Bosch was indemnified by MLB; MLB also agreed to defend him in civil actions. Bosch also agreed to testify. It would be odd if Bosch asserted that MLB didn't have permission to buy his records back from a former employee who stole them. I suppose he could do so, but I doubt it would hold water. Much would depend on the actual language of the agreement he signed with MLB.
Also, it does not really matter what Bosch "preferred" to have happen to the records, given that he cannot destroy documents which are the subject of at least one lawsuit and two investigations. Ownership does not equal absolute license to do as you please with an object.
NEW YORK -- Alex Rodriguez has walked out of his grievance hearing after arbitrator Fredric Horowitz refused to order baseball Commissioner Bud Selig to testify.
Horowitz was in the midst of the 12th day of hearings Wednesday on the grievance filed by the players' association to overturn the 211-game suspension given to Rodriguez by Major League Baseball last summer for alleged violations of the sport's drug agreement and labor contract.
Rodriguez says in a statement: "I am disgusted with this abusive process." He adds that "the absurdity and injustice just became too much. I walked out and will not participate any further in this farce." http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/10005806/alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-walks-own-grievance-hearing-says-disgusted
I shall get my popcorn ready.
Horowitz was in the midst of the 12th day of hearings Wednesday on the grievance filed by the players' association to overturn the 211-game suspension given to Rodriguez by Major League Baseball last summer for alleged violations of the sport's drug agreement and labor contract.
Rodriguez says in a statement: "I am disgusted with this abusive process." He adds that "the absurdity and injustice just became too much. I walked out and will not participate any further in this farce." http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/10005806/alex-rodriguez-new-york-yankees-walks-own-grievance-hearing-says-disgusted
I shall get my popcorn ready.
He really doesn't know when to quit. Walking out on the hearing because they won't force Bud to testify about basically nothing?
I continue to thank Jesus for the fact that Boston didn't end up stuck with this clown.
I continue to thank Jesus for the fact that Boston didn't end up stuck with this clown.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, but in the meantime, does anyone have any insight into why Selig wouldn't be compelled to testify regarding his role in the suspension? Is it as simple as arguing that Manfred is the mouthpiece and is therefore the only relevant decisionmaker?
Selig should extend his suspension to a full two years for walking out, just to show him what a real abuse of power looks like.
The real fun is going to happen if MLB wins and Slappy's lawyers get an immediate TRO in federal court to bar MLB from enforcing the suspension. I suspect Slappy will not get the TRO (since any damages he'd suffer could be compensated monetarily), but a man can dream.
The real fun is going to happen if MLB wins and Slappy's lawyers get an immediate TRO in federal court to bar MLB from enforcing the suspension. I suspect Slappy will not get the TRO (since any damages he'd suffer could be compensated monetarily), but a man can dream.
Moron. MLB has no precedence for a 211 game ban. There is no way that number will stand, if he just goes through the arbitration process. He get's a 50 game ban, saves about $20M and we can move on.
If his lawyers are telling him he's going to walk scott free if this goes to court, then he needs to get new lawyers. Again.
If his lawyers are telling him he's going to walk scott free if this goes to court, then he needs to get new lawyers. Again.
PhilPlantier said:
I imagine that one of the lawyers here could explain it better than I'm going to, but arbitration is a pretty tightly defined process. They are only going to be dealing with issues that are addressed in the CBA, so unless there is a defined role spelled out for Bud, I'm fairly certain his testimony cannot be compelled unless team A-Rod identified him as a witness early on in the proceedings.
If they are asking because they are on a fishing expedition to support their lawsuit - which seems to be the strategy - they're not going get Bud on the stand.
I will say that by walking out, A-Rod is basically giving up on arbitration. Never a good strategy to piss off the only person with a vote.
Would love to hear what RR thinks will be the impact of this stunt from a process and timeline perspective. At a minimum I hope it has the potential to draw out a resolution beyond the pre-Xmas target date for wrapping up the arbitration process, since anything that makes Brian Cashman's job more difficult I support....
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yankees/post/_/id/67018/so-what-exactly-set-a-rod-off
I'm sure Selig wouldn't testify without being compelled anyway, since he doesn't want to set a precedent that the commissioner can be forced to testify whenever an arbitration hearing occurrs... but I'm sure ARod's people want to sell it as 'Selig must have done something illegal or underhanded to get these documents, otherwise why won't he just answer questions about it'.
Hopefully someday the full story of MLB getting those documents comes out, because I'm sure at the bare minimum they skirted the law, and I'm legitimately curious about the whole story (would make a good 30 for 30)
I'm sure Selig wouldn't testify without being compelled anyway, since he doesn't want to set a precedent that the commissioner can be forced to testify whenever an arbitration hearing occurrs... but I'm sure ARod's people want to sell it as 'Selig must have done something illegal or underhanded to get these documents, otherwise why won't he just answer questions about it'.
Hopefully someday the full story of MLB getting those documents comes out, because I'm sure at the bare minimum they skirted the law, and I'm legitimately curious about the whole story (would make a good 30 for 30)
ARod - "I love New York. Zelig hates New York". "Selig's not man enough to confront me face to face. After he destroyed my career"
ARod also strongly says that he "did nothing wrong"
ARod also strongly says that he "did nothing wrong"
Anyone have a link to that old "yankees show sox how it's done on and off the field" article from after they got ARod? I want a good laugh
A-Rod says it's 100% personal and that Selig is trying to destroy his legacy. Also that MLB hates big salaries and want this spectacle.
Allegations made by ARod of MLB sliding a bag under the table filled with $150,000 in cash to a witness. Also accused one of the investigators of having sex with one of the witnesses.
Un-freaking-believable.
Un-freaking-believable.
Interview over. I've been a sports junkie for 45 years and I can honestly say that this was the most riveting, bizarre interview I have ever seen. I can't believe ARod's lawyer let him do this, especially given his emotional state. He was really teetering on the edge the whole time.