Rocking the JMA Wireless Dome - SU Hoops 2022-23

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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The Filthy One

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I think they could be worse. I think this team has the potential to be more interesting than last year's team, which seemed to have a lower ceiling given the lack of athleticism, but the floor is lower, in my opinion. A lot hinges on Benny Williams improving and Mintz being an impact player in year 1. They are replacing a lot of offense and have several new players learning the zone. Edwards being in the middle is the saving grace - they simply can't break in centers quickly with the zone. I'm excited for the season, because it seems to be the start of a new era (the post-Buddy era, I guess?), but I'm keeping my expectations modest.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
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Nov 2, 2007
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Dumb name for the Dome. Oh well, such is life. It's just... The Dome.

Anyway, an article today on ESPN.com kicks off the SU hoops season by looking at potential life after Boeheim.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/34671488/the-challenges-jim-boeheim-inevitable-retirement-syracuse-college-basketball

Teams are starting practices and the new season is kinda sorta underway now. Can't be worse for SU than last year, right?

RIGHT?????
that was the worst team in the last 50+ years record wise

They'll be better this season
 

mauf

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Since I’m sure I’m not the only SoSHer who hadn’t heard about the name change…

https://apnews.com/article/sports-syracuse-university-949906458f3e5af8f8953c75803713c6

JMA is headquartered in Syracuse and is a global leader in 5G wireless technology. It was recently selected to provide 5G equipment for SoFi Stadium in Inglewood, California, which hosted the Super Bowl this year and which the NFL’s Rams and Chargers call home.

The university announced in April that Carrier Global Corp. had agreed to end Carrier’s hold on naming rights to the venue, which is home to the university’s basketball, football and lacrosse teams, effective May 1. The sports business website Sportico was the first to report the name change.

Carrier pulled a coup in 1979, before naming rights became so lucrative, when it inked a $2.75 million deal with the university for naming rights in perpetuity, a financial mistake the school had been trying to rectify.
 
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BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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How Boeheim continues to stay in that zone just baffles me. Guys have such great range these days, SU *has* to extend the zone to absurd lengths, which make the middle absolutely WIDE open, and leaves Edwards (or whoever is in the middle) totally vulnerable. He fouls out of like every game. They can't rebound out of this. They never push the pace. They absolutely suck and it's infuriating.

Sure, they'll put it together and the other team will have a bad shooting night and a few times this year they'll knock off a pretty decent opponent, but on the whole, this program is a disaster at this point.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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And cuse football down 10 early to BC. Ugh (Nice comeback and win, 7-5 feels a lot better than 6-6).
 
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Dan Murfman

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How Boeheim continues to stay in that zone just baffles me. Guys have such great range these days, SU *has* to extend the zone to absurd lengths, which make the middle absolutely WIDE open, and leaves Edwards (or whoever is in the middle) totally vulnerable. He fouls out of like every game. They can't rebound out of this. They never push the pace. They absolutely suck and it's infuriating.

Sure, they'll put it together and the other team will have a bad shooting night and a few times this year they'll knock off a pretty decent opponent, but on the whole, this program is a disaster at this point.
Before the season started I went back and watched the 1990 BET final. I was surprised to see Syracuse played mainly man to man. I just assumed he always played the zone.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Before the season started I went back and watched the 1990 BET final. I was surprised to see Syracuse played mainly man to man. I just assumed he always played the zone.
I was there as a student from 1987-88 til 1990-91. They played zone occasionally but were primarily a M2M team.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Here's a little visual of how the game has changed. Look at where the zone is set up in the 2003 championship game against Kansas. KU was a great team that year but had basically two shooters: Heinrich and Lee (who shot a better percentage from three actually than Heinrich). Look how packed in the zone is.

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The top guys are basically at the foul line or even below. Kansas has two guys on the inside. This is a true 2-3. Look at how deep SU's back line is. All three guys basically at the level of the low block.

Now look at the zone yesterday against Bryant, who is decidedly NOT one of the best teams in the country. They're feisty, but not elite.

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Look at how high the top guys are - at the top of the key if they're playing off the ball, and if they're on the ball they're a yard beyond the extended three point line (i.e., it's further out than it was in 2003). Look at the "back" line of the SU defense. They're at the foul line OR BEYOND in the case of the dude at the top in front of the SU bench. And he's not even guarding anyone really. That's just where he plays it.

In the first photo, their rim protector is McNeil, who was a good shot blocker. But he had Anthony on one side and Warrick on the other. Very difficult to score inside there. In the second photo, Edwards is all alone under the basket. Nobody there to help out at all. He's a pretty good shot blocker too, but when you're isolated like that you are on an island, and it's very easy for him to pick up fouls. Very easy for the offense to find gaps and seams in the zone, to use diagonal passes to get the ball in the middle and then attack down in the paint.

This is standard for how SU plays the zone now because every team has shooters. This Bryant team has four regulars this year shooting better than 40% from three. That Kansas team had two - Lee and Heinrich. After that it plummeted. And that was normal. When I was at SU, they only ever had one guy who could really shoot from three - Matt Roe. Teams could pack it in and only have to worry about Roe, really. Plus teams just didn't shoot as much from deep. Now they're hoisting a million shots from out there at a good percentage and you HAVE to extend the zone. That leaves huge gaps and leaves the rim protector in total isolation.

The zone simply doesn't work in today's game. Yes, of course there will be games where the other team doesn't shoot well, and the zone will look great on those days. But many more days than not, teams aren't shooting poorly, which is one reason why SU is winning 16-19 games these days instead of winning 24-28. It's not that you can't win an individual game this way, of course you can. But as a system, it's outdated and not suited for today's game.
 

mauf

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How do these ACC-B1G matchups get fixed?

Wondering how an SU team that’s likely to be middle of the pack at best drew Illinois.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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SU had a good win at Notre Dame over the weekend. They'll have some of those if the other team has a cold shooting night.

Yay.
 

The Filthy One

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It's a shame we'll end up wasting Jesse Edwards' fine season. He is looking like the best offensive center SU has had since at least Rakeem Christmas.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Edwards has legit NBA prospects. Nearly 7 feet tall, long, very athletic. Good shot blocker with a developing post game. Not that the NBA uses post players but still, he can score around the rim. Too much foul trouble but still, he's got ability.
 

The Filthy One

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Mintz is going to be a special player as he matures. I hope he sticks around next year. In the meantime, Boeheim is playing a lot of players and figuring out some lineups. It's always fun to beat Georgetown. I'm looking on the bright side.

In other SU news, the soccer program won the national championship?! Strangely, SU (the D1 college I root for, having grown up outside the Cuse), and the University of Chicago (my actual alma mater) both won the soccer national championship this year. If only I cared about college soccer (or soccer at any level, for that matter), this would be a kickass sports year for me.
 

Dan Murfman

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The Filthy One

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It’s such a shame to see Louis gone so soon. He was before my time as a fan, but he’s clearly a key figure in the history of the program and the Big East. Boeheim’s quote about him was something: “he was the greatest man I ever knew.”
 

Dan Murfman

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I give them them credit. They were down 20 in the 2nd half and battled back and certainly had chance to win it. I think that is a good sign.
 

bsj

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Barely beat 2-win Louisville by one point.

This team is ridiculous.
You know what...given what we have seen of this team this season, I'll actually take a road ACC win, bad opponent or not.

It's not good, but it could have been (and has been) a lot worse.

Crazy as it, and as bad as they have played, 10-5 and 3-1 in the ACC...they still control their own destiny. They need to win a lot of games soon, and need to find some ranked wins, but they actually still control their path. I certainly don't expect them to make the tourney. Virginia is a MUST win. Honestly, Miami in a couple weeks is too. Beating 2 top 15 teams on the road would get them back in the mix.

And no I reiterate I dont at ALL expect it. I think they will be over .500 though, probably by 2-3 games.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Yep, good win yesterday at home vs. Notre Dame. 12-6 right now, better than I thought they'd be.
 

benhogan

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I was there as a student from 1987-88 til 1990-91. They played zone occasionally but were primarily a M2M team.
Jimmy has always been a heavy ZONE coach. John Cheney @ Temple, was the other. Both experienced an immense amount of success. He played a 2-1-2 before the 2-3 with Danny Schayes and Sean Kerins in the middle of the zone. I had a much older sibling attend Syracuse, before I went in the late 80s. So I've been closely following Cuse hoops since 1980.

The modern switchy defense the Celtics made famous last year has plenty of Jim's extended 2-3 ZONE principles. Coach K immediately added Jim to the Olympic team and started employing Zone at Duke, which would have been heresy amongst Bobby Knight's lineage.

Always viewed as a whiney Head Coach that just recruited well. The reality is Jimmy was extremely analytically oriented, way before it was popular. Boeheim has made more players stars than landed McDonald's All-Americans.

almost exclusively zone in 1985

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC_cLHAxtmM
 
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BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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SU blows an 11-point second half lead. Mintz with two complete boneheaded plays at the end that cost them the game. Freshman mistakes, growing pains, the works. But man, they had this game and it was their chance to get a signature win and blew it.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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SU inventing ways to lose this season. Just a terrible last minute of the game. Just awful, terrible, horrendous job by Syracuse to lose a game they could have won.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Mintz missing a shot in the lane he could have made. No box out on the free throw (though Bacot totally shoved his way in there). Girard saving it under their own basket leading to a layup for UNC. Mintz committing a horrible offensive foul for a flagrant one.

I mean you can’t screw up a game worse than that at the end.
 

ObstructedView

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Solid game by Mintz @ BC today - not a ton of points or assists, but some better decision-making and he was a difference-maker. Eagles had no answer for Edwards, which is a good thing because Girard put up a stinker with poor shooting and a couple boneheaded turnovers. BC just doesn't have the perimeter shooting to consistently beat the zone, and "Cuse's defensive intensity went up a notch down the stretch.

This team has shown some flashes, but there doesn't seem to be a real identity and they've been infuriatingly inconsistent. I could see them catching lightning in a bottle and going on a nice conference tourney run, or getting bounced in the first round.
 

The Filthy One

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Syracuse seems accurately rated right now, in terms of their ability. They can hang with top teams in the ACC, but they can't beat them (or haven't, at least). And since their weak opening of the season, they've mostly beaten the teams you'd expect them to beat. If this were 1994, I would be ecstatic with what this team has shown in terms of their prospects for next year. They have a bunch of freshmen who have shown they can play (Mintz, Bell, Brown, Taylor...at times Copeland). But it's 2023, and they are likely to lose Mintz to the G League, Edwards, Girard, and Torrence to graduation/pro ball, and they have no recruits signed for next year. How do you take a step forward in that case? It feels a little like a death spiral to me.
 

wonderland

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Jul 20, 2005
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West Virginia doesn’t have anybody signed/committed either. I guess they will just be playing the transfer portal.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Oct 1, 2015
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SU men's hoops....absolutely suck. It's unbelievable how bad we are. I mean, 16-12, blah blah blah. Whatever. It's so frustrating to watch.

Solution: don't watch anymore.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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SU gets absolutely obliterated at home by a lousy Georgia Tech (13-17) squad. By 20. Giving up 96 points in the Dome.

Jim. Boeheim. Needs. To. Go.

Now.
 

Rossox

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To quote Harvey Dent, “you either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.“

This is not ending well for Boeheim.
 

JimD

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Boeheim should have left when his sons finished up. He can't be having whatever passes for 'fun' to him, even his jousting with the media seems like a chore now.
 

The Filthy One

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It's the zone, I think. Which makes me even more nervous about any succession plan that Boeheim blessed. If Autry were to take over next year, does he know how to coach man-to-man? Can he bring in an assistant to do so? I imagine playing man most of the time would help them with recruiting, as well, both by expanding the pool of players who fit the system and by telling recruits it will better prepare them for pro ball. But this is bleak, and I fear, nowhere near rock bottom. If Boeheim comes back next year, it's possible the team is full of newcomers (figure you lose Edwards, Girard, Torrence, Mintz, probably Benny Williams and possibly Chris Bell) from the transfer portal. That means another year of watching seven strangers learn to play an elaborate team defense. If Boeheim leaves, maybe the replacement can talk a few of the key guys into staying, but there are many, many unknowns (including who the replacement is). Either way, the uncertainty can't be helping recruiting, nor can getting boat-raced by Georgia Tech at home. I think there's probably a minimum of five years in the wilderness coming up. Buckle up.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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You may be right, @The Filthy One. We could be in for some REALLY rough seasons ahead.

It's also possible that everyone but Girard comes back. I think they're all eligible to return. There's definitely talent on this roster, and if they stayed, this team has the potential to be good. But yeah, I think they're going to lose a lot of guys and they have virtually no recruiting class coming in. It would be a total rebuild from the transfer portal. Catastrophe awaits.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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You may be right, @The Filthy One. We could be in for some REALLY rough seasons ahead.

It's also possible that everyone but Girard comes back. I think they're all eligible to return. There's definitely talent on this roster, and if they stayed, this team has the potential to be good. But yeah, I think they're going to lose a lot of guys and they have virtually no recruiting class coming in. It would be a total rebuild from the transfer portal. Catastrophe awaits.
 

mauf

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You may be right, @The Filthy One. We could be in for some REALLY rough seasons ahead.

It's also possible that everyone but Girard comes back. I think they're all eligible to return. There's definitely talent on this roster, and if they stayed, this team has the potential to be good. But yeah, I think they're going to lose a lot of guys and they have virtually no recruiting class coming in. It would be a total rebuild from the transfer portal. Catastrophe awaits.
Does Boeheim really stick around to preside over a 4-16 season? If he does, isn’t that what the SU administration needs to finally pull the plug?

The 2023-24 Orangemen are going to be bad, but this is the reckoning you guys need so the program can finally move on.