Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended
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Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 22m
http://CampusPride.org #TGIF #Stop the #Hate Say no to bullying.... Unlike every major news / media outlet in the world
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 13m
Bully? Or Friend...... http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 9m
You could not define me in 144 years let alone 144 pages Mr Wells. Thank you for your hard work and dedication
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 7m
INDEPENDENT ? http://www.merriam-webster.com/
S
Step away from twitter Richie Incognito, you are not helping yourself
http://CampusPride.org #TGIF #Stop the #Hate Say no to bullying.... Unlike every major news / media outlet in the world
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 13m
Bully? Or Friend...... http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 9m
You could not define me in 144 years let alone 144 pages Mr Wells. Thank you for your hard work and dedication
Richie Incognito @68INCOGNITO 7m
INDEPENDENT ? http://www.merriam-webster.com/
S
Step away from twitter Richie Incognito, you are not helping yourself
I have a bit of a different take on this.
I played football at the FCS level, finishing up a few years ago. I was always a bit of an outsider, having been on the soccer team my freshman year, and then walking onto the team as a kicker before my sophomore year since I had pretty much maxed out my soccer potential. So I walked into a room filled with guys who I knew nothing about in a sport that I knew very little about in terms of how it actually worked on a day-to-day basis.
The sport of football and its culture are not the problem. Football is simply a magnifying glass for a number of the issues that exist everywhere else in the world and in life right now. When you look at everything that is talked about in this report, whether it is homophobia, racism, bullying, lack of accountability, lack of oversight, attempts to cover things up, or just about any other aspect of this, none of this is unique to football. It's not like going into a football locker room created these problems. Football does tend to bring them to the forefront, since the aggression and attitude required tends to push common sense and decency to the side in a lot of cases.
Richie Incognito, whether he played football or simply decided to become an accountant, would have been an asshole. I had guys on my team who were assholes too. They never went into the NFL, they now hold regular jobs, and they are still assholes. It's just who they are. The vast majority of guys I played with were normal guys who got jacked up for football games, and then went home and didn't have any problems. It's no different from any other business.
The problem with the Dolphins situation, much like we see with just about any problem, is that a lack of strong leadership and control allows this type of behavior to become a part of the culture, and then you start to see serious problems from it. In my opinion, having seen the inside of these locker rooms, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff for not recognizing the problem and dealing with it. Even at the college level, you spend 30-35 hours a week with these guys. If you don't know that someone like Incognito shouldn't be in a position of power on your team, you have some serious issues with what you are trying to put together.
I guess where I'm trying to go with this is that I think Incognito would have done this regardless of where he ended up. He was in a place that gave him further authority and made the situation worse, and I blame the Dolphins leadership for allowing that to happen. Incognito should never play another down in the NFL, but he most likely will, and if I were running the Dolphins, I would clean house completely since that isn't the type of team that I want to run.
I played football at the FCS level, finishing up a few years ago. I was always a bit of an outsider, having been on the soccer team my freshman year, and then walking onto the team as a kicker before my sophomore year since I had pretty much maxed out my soccer potential. So I walked into a room filled with guys who I knew nothing about in a sport that I knew very little about in terms of how it actually worked on a day-to-day basis.
The sport of football and its culture are not the problem. Football is simply a magnifying glass for a number of the issues that exist everywhere else in the world and in life right now. When you look at everything that is talked about in this report, whether it is homophobia, racism, bullying, lack of accountability, lack of oversight, attempts to cover things up, or just about any other aspect of this, none of this is unique to football. It's not like going into a football locker room created these problems. Football does tend to bring them to the forefront, since the aggression and attitude required tends to push common sense and decency to the side in a lot of cases.
Richie Incognito, whether he played football or simply decided to become an accountant, would have been an asshole. I had guys on my team who were assholes too. They never went into the NFL, they now hold regular jobs, and they are still assholes. It's just who they are. The vast majority of guys I played with were normal guys who got jacked up for football games, and then went home and didn't have any problems. It's no different from any other business.
The problem with the Dolphins situation, much like we see with just about any problem, is that a lack of strong leadership and control allows this type of behavior to become a part of the culture, and then you start to see serious problems from it. In my opinion, having seen the inside of these locker rooms, I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff for not recognizing the problem and dealing with it. Even at the college level, you spend 30-35 hours a week with these guys. If you don't know that someone like Incognito shouldn't be in a position of power on your team, you have some serious issues with what you are trying to put together.
I guess where I'm trying to go with this is that I think Incognito would have done this regardless of where he ended up. He was in a place that gave him further authority and made the situation worse, and I blame the Dolphins leadership for allowing that to happen. Incognito should never play another down in the NFL, but he most likely will, and if I were running the Dolphins, I would clean house completely since that isn't the type of team that I want to run.
Incognito does seem to be a special brand of asshole, and Pouncey seems to be your everyday toady wannabe thug (those Free Hernandez texts sure seem representative of his character at this point). But the extent to which the Dolphins enabled this cannot be overstated. Do assholes exist in all facets of life? Yes, but the vast majority of workplaces, even in professional sports, are able to contain their behavior better than this.
As for Incognito, it'll be very interesting to see where he winds up. He's talented enough at a position of value that many teams will give him a look despite his obvious character issues and the negative pr that would come with signing him. But if the NFL hands down a big suspension (which I dearly hope they will), then signing him becomes much less enticing--why sign a cancer who comes with an attached media circus if he can't even play most of the season?
soxfan121 said:This probably belongs in the Things You Just Learned thread but Jack from LA used go by John...
Fwiw, I absolutely admit I was wrong on this one. From every post I stated I thought Incognito was a scumbag and a bully. I just thought Martin got off easy and wasn't as much of a victim as some portrayed him to be. My belief was the Martin handled the situation wrong and should have let management know just how bad things were for him before walking out of the cafeteria without an excused absence. But after reading the emails to his parents, I have so much empathy for this guy. He clearly had some emotional issues - I don't blame the Dolphins for that. But I find it fucking reprehensible that Martin's dad sat down with Philbin, "Father to Father" and explained the pain his son was in....and the Fins didn't do shit. The turmoil was expressed and it fell on deaf ears by all practical purposes. I truly hope Martin gets another shot in the NFL. I'll be rooting for him.
Greg Bedard
Emphasis added because I'm pretty sure Bedard nails the second half of that statement - "don't Incognito that guy" - is definitely going to be used going forward.
Emphasis added because I'm pretty sure Bedard nails the second half of that statement - "don't Incognito that guy" - is definitely going to be used going forward.
soxfan121 said:
Thank you for the kind words, one man's consistency is another man's redundancy..... and perhaps I am being a bit unfair to Philbin in that he could only work with the hand that Jeff Ireland dealt him. Of course, I think this is in many ways an example of the risk of hiring a Mr. Spock rather than Captain Kirk type coach in the NFL. It made no sense when Ireland hired a OC / Technician type coach and then got rid of all of the veteran leadership on offense and as a result the Dolphins (and Martin) paid the cost for that poor series of decisions.
dcdrew10 said:
It is amazing to me how easy Pouncey has gotten off so far in this case. The NFL has to suspend him. It would be interesting to see what his market would be if the Dolphins cut him. He is young, talented, and, unlike Martin, productive/effective. I think someone would sign him, but there would be a ton of risk.
dcmissle said:
First, as others have pointed out, there is a big difference between guys fucking up on their own time and guys fucking up in the team's locker room. Second, we are talking about the NFL, where winning trumps everything. Philbin is nothing special as a head coach, but BB is the greatest coach in NFL history. If it was revealed that Wilfork, Brady and Troy Brown were secretly part of a cabal that provided nuclear material processed with the hearts of murdered puppies to the Iranian revolutionary guard, I would still suggest the Pats think twice before they fired him.
In serious terms, I dont think we have a good enough understanding of both the full scope of AH's crimes or really what the Pats leadership knew and when they knew it to pass judgement on BB and/or Kraft, as fun as that would be for someone like me. I do think Pats fans should be a little less cavalier about their confidence in the ability of BB to tame the behavior and maximize the performance of any NFL head case / trouble maker. He is clearly good with the latter aspect, but AH proves that hiring "bad guys" always comes with risk that even the best coaches / environments can fail to successfully control.
I've willingly ignored the prior evidence suggesting that Pouncey is a flat-out punk; but those days are over. I wouldn't be surprised to see him dealt for 2 3rd-round picks.
Crazed as he is, Richie is the only one correctly pointing out that the Report is anything but independent. The NFL is an owners group, and Ross, in effect, had this situation investigated by his own attorneys. Paul, Weiss is the NFL law firm, with an annual revenue stream from all the current litigation which must run into the millions. Would the lawyers here call them independent?
They do not address the adequacy of the organizational response to Richie's four drunk escapades in May-June 2012--No rehab?Really? They throw Turner overboard--but resposibility
neatly ends there, for the Dolphins. What about Mike Sherman, who is never mentioned? The O- line coach is a known profane bully, Sherman's right hand he brought from Texas A&M ,
and Sherman, the OC... nothing? No mention of his interview.Turner lied --what about Sherman?
Not surprisingly, the conflict of interest in the psychiatric care the Dolphins arranged has been noted here--but lost on the investigators from Paul, Weiss (What's a conflict?), even though
they point out he didn't trust the guy, couldn't talk to him, and it was not a professional or therapeutic relationship, but a travesty. It's perfectly reasonable to refer him to a team doctor
for a return-to-work evaluation, but highly unethical for a doctor reporting to the team to undertake treatment, and pretend to be your doctor--Martin knew better, couldn't get the help he needed,
and there would have been hell to pay if he killed himself.Should be anyway.
With regard to BB, it is reasonable to seek market inefficiencies in troublemakers, but I can't believe a thorough enough investigation of AH, his associates, and his past incidents was carried out --of course, easy to say with hindsight.
They do not address the adequacy of the organizational response to Richie's four drunk escapades in May-June 2012--No rehab?Really? They throw Turner overboard--but resposibility
neatly ends there, for the Dolphins. What about Mike Sherman, who is never mentioned? The O- line coach is a known profane bully, Sherman's right hand he brought from Texas A&M ,
and Sherman, the OC... nothing? No mention of his interview.Turner lied --what about Sherman?
Not surprisingly, the conflict of interest in the psychiatric care the Dolphins arranged has been noted here--but lost on the investigators from Paul, Weiss (What's a conflict?), even though
they point out he didn't trust the guy, couldn't talk to him, and it was not a professional or therapeutic relationship, but a travesty. It's perfectly reasonable to refer him to a team doctor
for a return-to-work evaluation, but highly unethical for a doctor reporting to the team to undertake treatment, and pretend to be your doctor--Martin knew better, couldn't get the help he needed,
and there would have been hell to pay if he killed himself.Should be anyway.
With regard to BB, it is reasonable to seek market inefficiencies in troublemakers, but I can't believe a thorough enough investigation of AH, his associates, and his past incidents was carried out --of course, easy to say with hindsight.
I agree that Pouncey looks bad, but I would be really surprised if they traded him for pennies on the dollar. I can see a few games of suspension, but he's a Pro-Bowl center signed to a cheap contract and not yet in his prime.pdaj said:
If they're really trying to send a message, they drop Pouncey or trade him(Jerry and Incognito are free agents) I just don't see it happening seeing he wasn't the main instigator.
Truth be told, this is a hallmark of Goodell's disciplinary style so far – unearth bad behavior, make an example of someone and sweep any broader problem that leads to ownership or could more deeply harm the league's reputation under the rug.lambeau said:
That said,I think this report seems to have done a fair job of detailing the extent of that bad behavior in the locker room. You've got the additional revelations about Jerry and Pouncey, Turner's role, the other assistant coach being the target of racist remarks, the other OL who was humiliated, etc. It's not like Incognito was made a scapegoat here.
To the extent that Ross and Philbin aren't personally held responsible is perhaps unfortunate (assuming there was even much in the way of evidence to be found). But between these findings, the texts between all parties and (especially) the communications between Martin and his parents (which opened a lot of people's eyes), I think the report seems to have done a pretty good and balanced job explaining how something like this happens and the kind of real damage it can cause.
Would also add that Twitter comments like Woody's are a good thing in the end because they demonstrate that this kind of thing won't go away overnight.
2 third round picks is hardly pennies on the dollar. They'd be lucky to get that given his baggage.sodenj5 said:
MarcSullivaFan said:
The "2 3rd-rounders" prediction was semi tongue-in-cheek; as that was the haul Miami got when they traded Brandon Marshall. Ireland haters love to use this deal to slam his tenure with the Dolphins, but I think a huge part of BM's success has been due to ridding himself of the Miami lifestyle. Before the deal, he looked to be on a collision course for death or jail. Some people can handle that city; others cannot. Maybe Pittsburgh will want to reunite the Pouncey twins?
I think the report that Philbin wanted to cut Incognio after RI's golf course/sexual harassment incident went a long way toward securing his position with Ross. I honestly think that if JP could roster an entire team of do-gooders, he would. But that's just not realistic.
Don't be surprised if the Fins try to trade Pouncey and bring back Martin. How interesting of a story would that be?
The inference I drew from this post was that you still seemed to believe that there was some sort of witch-hunt intent persecuting Incognito afoot. Care to comment now?sodenj5 said:
Andrew McDonald has been identified as "Player A."
m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10462154
m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10462154
In my opinion, which is likely wrong, McDonald saw the events that went on and was a part of as normal NFL locker room stuff and didn't feel it crossed the line into harassment. It just goes to show how much gray area there is when dealing with this stuff.
Its also possible as a practice squad level player he was less likely to rock the boat, knowing full well that anything deemed as a negative by the organization could be fatal in his chances to make the team. He came in as an undrafted free agent and spent his time with the Dolphins on the practice squad. I'd say the level of shit you'll take as a PS player exceeds the amount a guy like Logan Mankins would take.
But he was off the team when he was interviewed. What incentive does he have to cover up what happened now when he's been with the Panthers for a while now?PaulinMyrBch said:
I think you're right, that as a fringe guy, he'd be willing to endure a bit more than an established starter or veteran, but if he truly felt like he was harassed or his rights were violated, why we he go out of his way to release a statement now that he's out of the organization?
That a lot of people in the league, including other players and coaches, view Martin as a wuss and a snitch? That as a borderline roster guy, he wouldn't want to be painted with that same "boat rocker" label?sodenj5 said:
sodenj5 said:
From the beginning of this episode, you have been consistent in suggesting that when the facts came out, we were likely to find out that Martin suffered an emotional breakdown that was essentially unrelated to Incognito's behavior, and that Incognito was not guilty of doing anything that significantly departs from the norm of NFL behavior. At every turn, you (and others) have posted gossip, innuendo, unverified third hand opinions and speculation from people who have no way of knowing - all with the intent of conveying a sense that while Incognito may be a bad guy, the real problem here was/is Jonathan Martin. You even posted some of the tweets that we now know (from the report) were the result of Incognito manipulating Martin for the express purpose of leaking the tweets to make Martin look bad.
Astoundingly even after the report was issued and we have discovered that the situation within the Dolphins' locker room was even worse than initially reported, you are still trying to imply that because the other player identified in the report is not stating that he felt abused, Martin must somehow be the problem. (Given your track record in this thread, that's really the only conclusion I can draw from the bolded.)
It is interesting to note that regardless of what he says in public, this does not seem to be an opinion shared by Incognito himself, who wrote that he "broke Jmart" in the fine book after Martin left the team later asked Pouncey to get rid of the evidence. (Lawyers would call this behavior "consciousness of guilt.")
With all of the above as context, I'd be interested in knowing if there any circumstances that would cause you to conclude that you were wrong about what went on and that Jonathan Martin was, in fact, treated poorly by the team and Incognito? Or are you arguing that within the context of an NFL locker room, there really can't be anything that rises to the level of harassment/abuse/bullying that needs to be addressed by the team.
I would say more than a lot. How about, most?PBDWake said:
It has been interesting to hear commentary locally on this from generations of retired NFL players. From Sonny Jurgenson, through Doc Walker, to Brian Mitchell, to Chris Cooley, who retired after the 2012 season.
Two predominant themes from them.
1. You don't sit there and abide this kind of abuse. You confront Richie verbally and draw a clear line. If that does not work, you punch Richie in the mouth, even if you are going to get your ass beat. That will escalate the issue, at which point it will be dealt with cause the team will have no choice but to deal with it.
Soxfan's excellent points to the contrary notwithstanding, they have very little sympathy for how this 20-something, 300 lb, Stanford grad took care of business.
2. He is, in fact, viewed as a snitch. Cooley made this point a couple weeks ago, and reaffirmed it Friday. Other players on other teams are not going to trust Martin. He'll get a shot, but he'll have to explain himself to new teammates. And he's probably very fortunate he has friends in places like SF and Indy, for as Shelter observed way upthread, Martin is far from a standout player.
There is no reason to believe these retired Redskins are atypically sociopathic. Indeed, the reaction of people like Damien Woody suggests they are not.
The NFL can and will legislate behavior. It cannot legislate hearts and minds, certainly over the short haul. Culture change is organic.
Michael Sam is likely to have it much easier than Martin.
There is nothing wrong with saying Martin should have put his foot down and told his tormentors to knock that shit off. I don't know if it would have done any good, and Incognito and Pouncey are certainly animals, but adults in a situation like this should defend themselves as a first course of action, then take other steps like bringing the issue to management or even to the media / outside public.
Correct me if I have the timeline / actions wrong, but the fault I have with Martin is that, from the perspective of everyone outside of his close family, his response to this abuse went straight from "playing along" to quitting and taking this to the media / legal realm. It appears that the only action Martin took during this abuse was to talk to his parents and a therapist (which was team provided, but it appears that he didn't tell the team why he needed to speak to the therapist.) Martin should have listened to his father and told Richie Incognito to knock that shit off. That doesn't excuse Incognito / Pouncey's behavior or the Dolphins obligation to control the locker room, but adults should stick up for themselves as a first course of action. Martin is a victim, Incognito & Pouncey are horrible people and the coaches were incompetent, but there were additional steps that Martin could have taken to try and limit the awful behavior of his tormentors.
As for his future in the NFL, it is not fair, but I question his ability to succeed in that physically / mentally competitive endeavor. He is going to get called a pussy and a snitch to his face in every game he plays for the rest of his career and I don't think he will respond by knocking his tormentors on their ass, which is what a team needs offensive linemen to do. He also has to prove that his workout attendance issues are exclusively a matter of avoiding his tormentors and not avoiding hard work.
Correct me if I have the timeline / actions wrong, but the fault I have with Martin is that, from the perspective of everyone outside of his close family, his response to this abuse went straight from "playing along" to quitting and taking this to the media / legal realm. It appears that the only action Martin took during this abuse was to talk to his parents and a therapist (which was team provided, but it appears that he didn't tell the team why he needed to speak to the therapist.) Martin should have listened to his father and told Richie Incognito to knock that shit off. That doesn't excuse Incognito / Pouncey's behavior or the Dolphins obligation to control the locker room, but adults should stick up for themselves as a first course of action. Martin is a victim, Incognito & Pouncey are horrible people and the coaches were incompetent, but there were additional steps that Martin could have taken to try and limit the awful behavior of his tormentors.
As for his future in the NFL, it is not fair, but I question his ability to succeed in that physically / mentally competitive endeavor. He is going to get called a pussy and a snitch to his face in every game he plays for the rest of his career and I don't think he will respond by knocking his tormentors on their ass, which is what a team needs offensive linemen to do. He also has to prove that his workout attendance issues are exclusively a matter of avoiding his tormentors and not avoiding hard work.
These Redskins are not sociopathic,but they do totally miss the point Nobody is more critical of Martin for being unassertive and ineffectual than Martin himself.He admits freely to being
very flawed. He and Incognito were a disastrous mismatch. But the position coach, Turner, threw gas on the flames--and Philbin and Sherman knew very well what kind of sadistic prick Turner was because they worked with him for years--so who was Martin to turn to? He had no reason to think Philbin and Sherman would side with him against his position coach--when does that happen?
very flawed. He and Incognito were a disastrous mismatch. But the position coach, Turner, threw gas on the flames--and Philbin and Sherman knew very well what kind of sadistic prick Turner was because they worked with him for years--so who was Martin to turn to? He had no reason to think Philbin and Sherman would side with him against his position coach--when does that happen?
Their point is punch him in the mouth, a shit storm ensues, and it gets sorted out. I am not saying it's right. Soxfan eloquently described why it's wrong. But that's the way it is.
There is a pretty good commercial for a restaurant featuring a guy who looks like a young Junior Soprano and dressed like an old Vince Lombardi hectoring a dweeb diner to be a "grown up man." That is the mindset. And I suspect it's not confined to the NFL but rather cuts across all major sports, NBA, NHL, MLB included.
There is a pretty good commercial for a restaurant featuring a guy who looks like a young Junior Soprano and dressed like an old Vince Lombardi hectoring a dweeb diner to be a "grown up man." That is the mindset. And I suspect it's not confined to the NFL but rather cuts across all major sports, NBA, NHL, MLB included.
Fine, in the NFL punching him is functional and being incapable of it is dysfunctional. Yet Harbaugh, with arguably the toughest team in the NFL, says his locker room is like Stanford's.
If you read The Blind Side, or Collision Low Crossing, and realize the horrific backgrounds of deprivation, depression,abuse, and rage these guys come from, is it too much to think the NFL could help them a little more with some structure to help them keep the aggression on the field?
If you read The Blind Side, or Collision Low Crossing, and realize the horrific backgrounds of deprivation, depression,abuse, and rage these guys come from, is it too much to think the NFL could help them a little more with some structure to help them keep the aggression on the field?
No, but we are talking past each other. You are talking about what should be; I am discussing what, apparently, is. In this age of twitter with more voluble players than you would care to have, the silence is deafening in terms of support for Martin. I believe Sam has garnered more in one week than Martin has in about 3 months.
Edit--Regarding Twitter, Richie has apparently pulled the plug on his account, probably too late. The last week indelibly and forever stamped him stupid.
Edit--Regarding Twitter, Richie has apparently pulled the plug on his account, probably too late. The last week indelibly and forever stamped him stupid.
Yeah, I don't see why not. Some of the SF player leadership came out when this story broke and said this kind of behavior simply doesn't happen in their locker room (I think it was Whitner). Then Harbaugh came out and said the SF locker room was not much different than Stanford, where I think Martin said he felt comfortable outside of a few minor incidents. I'm sure Indy and NE are comparable because they don't let the inmates run the prison. For these teams, I get the impression that the players really don't give a shit about whatever history you have as long as you perform.
There is no "talent aside" -- if Martin was an All-Pro left tackle, there would be 31 teams seeking his services. His problem isn't that he's regarded as a snitch; it's that people think his inability to handle Richie Incognito and his subpar performance on the field are both signs that he's soft. If Martin gets another chance, it will be because people who have personal relationships with him think that's a bad rap (as it may well be).lambeau said:
Why even bother asking talent aside? I mean this in general. Jonathan Martin is not a good tackle. I never thought much of him pre draft and nothing he has shown me post draft has changed my mind. I realize this is his 2nd year. He's just not worth it. Move on.maufman said:
Is it possible that Martin was set up to fail by having the wrong people use the wrong methods to motivate him? Maybe he was playing out of fear that the next screw up could have Incognito up his ass (figuratively).
It's possible, but look at his history. He was originally projected as a first round pick but dropped due to an awful combine showing. That sort of set the tone of under achieving. Then he came in as the starting right tackle and was not very good his rookie year.JayMags71 said:
Despite that, Miami basically handed him the keys to be the starting left tackle, and he was even worse. Obviously his mental state had something to do with that, but he would consistently get whipped by rusher out muscling him and just be faster and more athletic than him.
Would a tamer locker room with one of his Stanford connections like San Fran or Indy be better for him mentally? Absolutely. It won't make him more athletic or stronger and have better footwork.
Well there were something like 6 preceding posts talking about Martin's usefulness to other teams. Seems relevant to that tangent.
Perhaps it's worth breaking out, but I suspect it'll fizzle quickly. I know sodenj5 has taken a fairly unpopular POV in this topic, but lets not single him out on this one.
Perhaps it's worth breaking out, but I suspect it'll fizzle quickly. I know sodenj5 has taken a fairly unpopular POV in this topic, but lets not single him out on this one.
You've got to just stop talking about Martin anymore in the context of the Incognito/Miami locker room situation at this point. What Martin should or should have not done, who Martin is or isn't, what problems Martin does or doesn't have, doesn't matter anymore. There is certainly a larger discussion to be had there, but the Wells Report's inclusion of Player B and the Assistant Trainer made everything about Martin except his existence immaterial to evaluating this particular situation.
Criticism of Martin is fine. Criticism of Martin as a means of (however softly) justifying, defending, or really even understanding what happened in that locker room has reached the realm of mud-slinging horseshit.
Criticism of Martin is fine. Criticism of Martin as a means of (however softly) justifying, defending, or really even understanding what happened in that locker room has reached the realm of mud-slinging horseshit.
Jer said:
He's not being singled out because he took an unpopular stance, and frankly, that's offensively misleading.
He's being singled out because he took a stance that was very provocative and - because it relied heavily on innuendo and third-hand hearsay - not terribly compelling. It was also a stance that has been proven to be wrong.
Right before Ted Wells' report was issued, he jumped back into this thread to talk again about what he perceived to be the anti-Incognito bias here. I can only assume that his reason for doing so was that he took Incognito's arrogant Twitter comments as an indication that the report was going to vindicate Incognito and/or validate his belief that the real problem in the Dolphins clubhouse was Jonathan Martin. Since the report was issued, he has yet to comment on this, which is why I keep going back to those posts.
In my experience, SoSH does not have a problem with people taking unpopular stances on any topic. But SoSH is generally unforgiving of those who take contrarian positions which they refuse to address after the facts are subsequently revealed.
I'll drop this now, because we're apparently not going to hear from any of the Incognito dead-enders. But let's stop pretending that we're getting on sodenj5 because his perspective is unpopular.
JimBoSox9 said:
This is what I was trying to get at, and you stated it much more directly and eloquently.
Please drop it. Soden was responding to a question, plain and simple. And your real argument is not with soden or anyone else here; nobody has argued Richie is a great guy. Your argument is with rank and file NFL players, active and retired, as frustrating as that may be.
This must be exhibit P, or Q, or R by this point, via PFT.com (emphasis added):
EDIT: There are several victims in this, but the purest one is the trainer, who was utterly powerless, in whom the team had nothing invested, and who endured ethnic taunts, probably out of fear that any complaint who have resulted in a job loss. We're not hearing a lot about him.
This must be exhibit P, or Q, or R by this point, via PFT.com (emphasis added):
EDIT: There are several victims in this, but the purest one is the trainer, who was utterly powerless, in whom the team had nothing invested, and who endured ethnic taunts, probably out of fear that any complaint who have resulted in a job loss. We're not hearing a lot about him.
Given his stance in this thread on the subject, his jumping back into the thread following the Incognito tweets, subequent silence with respect to the substance of the report, and then commentary above on Martin's failings as a player in Miami, I think it is completely fair to single out sodenj. Perhaps he would like to clarify his stance on the whole issue following the report (or maybe he did and I missed it). But right now he looks an awful lot like a guy still trying to point the finger at Martin.
Gunfighter 09 said:
It's probably not worth much, but according to the Wells report, Martin did respond negatively certain abuses, albeit not nearly as much as he should have. The report is blocked at work, but I believe it was IDed on Pages 9-10 that sexual comments were made about his mother and sister, he indicated discomfort and requested the stop, and that the comments intensified. It's also known that Incognito, by his own admission, was aware of Martin's history of mental health issues and thoughts of suicide.
I don't disagree with much of what you've said (oddly enough, being a snitch in the first place would have probably made this a substantially lesser deal than it is and might have saved several jobs), but it's worth noting there were additional hints.
For what it's worth, Mark Schlereth has a much more sympathetic take towards Martin, so it's not like all former Skins have the same views.
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10458607&src=desktop
http://m.espn.go.com/nfl/story?storyId=10458607&src=desktop
This is the part that gets me. Even if for the sake of argument we accept all the bullshit about NFL locker rooms and football culture and "Martin shoulda punched him in the mouth", none of that applies to the trainer. He was just a guy who has a job and got racially abused at work, and that should not be acceptable in this day and age period.dcmissle said:
I also don't accept any of the bullshit that playing football gives your teammates a pass to bully and harass you. That's ludicrous, akin to arguing that Jackie Robinson could be faulted for choosing to play baseball, where he would be bullied and harassed.
sodenj5 said:
The most troubling thing about the Wells report from a pure "can Martin make it as a football player" perspective is how hard watching the "sack reel" of season lowlights was for him. Maybe the fear of failure leads him to greatness but no matter how supportive a Patriots, 49ers, Seahawks or Ravens locker room is a player is going to have to take some blunt coaching when he fucks up and it's not clear--based on the report--how will Martin can handle tough but fair treatment.
Let me put it another way:
Just because immoral behavior is endemic to a particular culture doesn't excuse or permit it in any way. It means that the culture needs to change.
That's assuming such behavior is actually as widespread as people claim.
Just because immoral behavior is endemic to a particular culture doesn't excuse or permit it in any way. It means that the culture needs to change.
That's assuming such behavior is actually as widespread as people claim.
Shelterdog said:
Here's the section of the report you're referring to (p. 109):
Hard to say if Martin's reaction to watching the tape (uncomfortable, but motivating) was really "troubling." Should it not be uncomfortable to watch yourself play like shit?