Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Shelterdog said:
I don't find a single thing that Mike Pouncey has to say interesting.  Once you wear the free hernandez hat you're off of my list of thought leaders.
 
And I think we're way beyond the point where we can say martin just snapped in reaction to good-natured ribbing, so Miko doesn't do much for me either.
 
I was going to write, literally, the exact same thing before I refreshed the page to see the new responses.
 
Pouncey's probably a dickface and Incognito is absolutely a dickface. Incognito has worn out his welcome in two cities despite being one of the better players on the field every Sunday (except when he gets boneheaded penalties...shocker). One good article apparently started a PR spin for the guy, and he capitalized. Fuck him. There's stories of him going after peoples knees to end careers, losing it on teammates, being selfish enough to wrack up penalties regardless how it affects the team, drinking/drug issues...the guy can go get fucked.
 
Mike Pouncey - the guy who supports Aaron Hernandez and has been subpoenaed for his knowledge about Hernandez and gun trafficking - supporting Incognito does nothing to sway me from believing that Incognito can go get fucked by a polar bear.
 

soxhop411

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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc3lvSRFkJ8&feature=youtu.be[/media]
 
Richie Incognito did a PSA for the Dolphins "Fan code of conduct". I really do not know what to say to this
 

pdaj

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rymflaherty said:
"Would u guys feel any different if u heard Martin and Incognito had a joking/racial dissing relationship with each other? That happens." - Miko Grimes
 
But the problem is in many of those types of relationships it may seem that way to the antagonist.  Meanwhile the other party may play around because they feel they are obliged to, they may not see another option.  They may smile, but they are really harboring resentment and it's eating away at them.
 
I think it's totally plausible to think Incognito didn't think he was doing anything "wrong". But his intentions have little bearing on how the actions were perceived by Martin.
 
I think this is probably dead-on. Throughout my life, I've had teammates and fellow employees with similar personalities who I couldn't stand, but I played along because it was easier to do. In their minds, they were well-liked and "friends" with everyone. As an NFL player, you spend so much time with your teammates; this type of negative relationship has to wear on certain players. It wouldn't surprise me if Incognito truly thought he and Martin were "close".
 
Mike Pouncey presents himself very well in interviews, but many of his comments/actions make him come across as a bit of a doucebag. As a fan of a team and Pouncey's play on the field, it isn't easy to admit that. 
 

soxfan121

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pdaj said:
 


 
 


 
(1)Edit: While I still tend to believe Incognito is a POS, I'm inclined to wait until more info comes out to formulate any conclusions. The VM transcript alone is pretty damning, but I'd more interested in hearing the message/context. Was the O-line unit always referring to each other in this fashion? Perhaps the entire unit, aside from Martin? (If this is the case, that's a huge problem.) As the tweets above mention, Incognito's messages to Martin took place 6 months ago. Why did Martin keep on hanging out with him off the field?
 
(2)Richie's father claims that Martin attempted suicide 3 times in his past. Is this true? If Martin's absence is officially designated as personal/mental, he does not get paid during his absence. However, if Martin's leave is due to bullying/abuse, he does get paid. Thus, there is some incentive for deemphasize any role an unhealthy emotional/mental state may have played in this.
 
Of course, it all could be as simple as it looks. Incognito targets Martin and never stops; Martin finally loses it; and now it's all being brought to the surface. But in my years of managing staff, things are rarely that cut and dry.
 
(3)I'm really interested in finding out if Martin ever approached the coaching staff prior to all this.
 
1. If you've got years of managing staff, you know full well that the context you (Dolphins fan) is seeking is completely and utterly irrelevant. Even if the OL as a unit consistently engaged in such "ribald banter", what Incognito did (assuming Schefter/others are correct and that voicemail/text was sent to Martin) constitutes workplace harassment and would get any supervisor and/or employee at the very least suspended, if not terminated. I totally understand Dolphins fans desperately wanting this to be a "boys being boys" situation....it's past that point now. There is no way that the "context" you're looking for is going to matter. What matters is what was said and what can be proven. And if Incognito sent that voicemail and ANYONE in the Dolphins organization knew about it...well, you've got years of "managing staff"...what do you think is going to happen?
 
2. You are dangerously close to the "she was askin for it with that short skirt" defense here. I am positive that's not your intent but it does not matter AT ALL if Martin attempted suicide or not. That you are using the allegations of Incognito's father (who is clearly unhinged and mentally ill himself, if he wrote that disgusting and awful shit posted earlier in the thread) as evidence suggests that you're not thinking about this rationally. As is that douchebag Kouffman you quoted at length, with the BS about Martin's family. 
 
Let's put it simply - regardless of Martin's mental status, what Incognito (allegedly) did broke several workplace laws. Yes, the NFL is not a usual workplace, which is why Incognito is still employed today. In just about every other employment situation, a co-worker who threatens the life of another co-worker is terminated, with possible criminal charges to ensue. It doesn't matter if Martin was the most suicidal person in the history of the world - it is not Martin's actions that matter in this situation. The Dolphins would be really smart to pay him while he's on the NFI list and make this part of it a non-issue, regardless of whether Martin has "Harvard educated litigators" in his family or not. If Incognito threatened Martin (using "I'll kill you") and threatened Martin's family, it isn't going to matter if Martin is related to Alan fucking Dershowitz. This ceased to be about Martin the moment he notified team personnel (ANY team personnel) of the contents of the voicemail. 
 
As for why Martin "hung out" with Incognito - that's on Joe Philbin and the coaching staff for making Incognito a "team leader". As you suggest, it's rarely cut & dried when analyzing behavior but it's easy to draw the inference that Martin - rookie/2nd year player - was told to "follow" Incognito - veteran and "team leader". If Martin said to his position coach, "hey, this guy makes me feel uncomfortable" it isn't outrageous to surmise that a coach told him to "toughen up" and follow Incognito's example. 
 
3. It is hard for me to believe a guy as smart and sensitive as Martin reportedly is did not mention this to someone - a coach, a trainer, someone. And that's where it gets dicey for the Dolphins. If Martin told a position coach and that person failed to report it to Philbin, that position coach has put the organization in real hot water, legally. If Martin told Philbin and Philbin did nothing, Philbin is DONE as a coach. And if Martin's allegation got to Ireland - even secondhand - and Ireland did nothing, I expect the NFL to drop the motherfucking hammer on the whole team, including Ireland. 
 

sodenj5

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soxhop411 said:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc3lvSRFkJ8&feature=youtu.be[/media]
 
Richie Incognito did a PSA for the Dolphins "Fan code of conduct". I really do not know what to say to this
...it's clearly meant to be funny.
 

Tony C

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soxhop411 said:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc3lvSRFkJ8&feature=youtu.be[/media]
 
Richie Incognito did a PSA for the Dolphins "Fan code of conduct". I really do not know what to say to this
 
Good lord, if this whole story wasn't so brutal there'd also be just too much unintentional comedy.
 
As for the Cooper analogy, it's not to type of behavior, the analogy is to predictions that Cooper wouldn't have a career moving forward. I'll grant you that with Incognito in self-destruct mode, I could well be wrong and he'll be out of football permanently. That said -- a year from now and a team in the hunt for the playoffs loses a guard and Richie does a contrition routine after going through a 12-step program, I have a hard time believing space won't be made for an all-pro at the position. But maybe not.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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shoosh77 said:
I'm wondering if Richie's uber alpha male behavior is masking some skeletons in his personal life.  
 
Are you really wondering that? I have a hard time believing that anybody gives a shit about his personal life.
 

Shelterdog

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CaptainLaddie said:
I literally couldn't give a flying fuck what Miko Grimes has to say.  Why even pollute this thread with her mind-numbing shit?
 
Because--like Pouncey's special brand of stupid-- it justifies RI's behavior.
 

shoosh77

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Kenny F'ing Powers said:
 
Are you really wondering that? I have a hard time believing that anybody gives a shit about his personal life.
 
Not that I give a shit, but that his way of dealing with his own issues is to take it out on someone else. It seems like his father is a rationale person too.
 

singaporesoxfan

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shoosh77 said:
I'm wondering if Richie's uber alpha male behavior is masking some skeletons in his personal life.  
Not that this is that surprising, but in an interview in 2003 Incognito discussed being bullied as a kid and learning to hit back.

It didn't help Richie's disposition any that he was tormented by the other kids. Every day it was "fatass," "lardass" or "whale." When teachers told his folks that Richie never stuck up for himself, Richie Sr., a mason and old-school tough guy, told his son, "you can't let them keep doing it." So one day, on the playground in third grade, Richard Dominick Incognito decided that Joey, the local loudmouth, had called him "lardass" for the last time. Richie answered with a one-two combo that sent Joey home with two black eyes. The whuppin' didn't give Richie any satisfaction. "We were both scared," he says. "He ran one way, and I ran the other." But from that day on, Richie never backed down. "I think fighting was distasteful for Richie," Bendian says. "But he realized that if you want a kid off your back, you have to beat the crap out of him."
http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=8150378&src=desktop
 

TSC

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A source within the Dolphins is saying that Incognito is done as a Dolphin.
 
Now, he's a FA at the end of the year, so it's only at most 8 games. But it's still worth noting.
 

twothousandone

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soxfan121 said:
Regardless, the connection of what Richie Incognito is alleged to have done is not in the same UNIVERSE as what Riley Cooper did. Not even close and not worth comparing. One is garden variety stupidity/racism - the other is possibly criminal and absolutely on a whole other level due to the threats of violence and/or the involvement of specific individuals. 
Isn't Christian Peter a better comparison? Not possibly criminal, but criminal. (Unlike Roethlisberger where it was all in civil court). Myra Kraft didn't want a rapist on her team. She seemingly had Bob Kraft's full support. Peter would later play for the Giants, Colts, and Bears.  I think Incognito can play again in the NFL, in the aftermath of this. Given that he seems to wear out his welcome quickly, it's possible no one can be bothered to take the chance.
 

soxfan121

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A must-read piece by Drew Magary (who I am NOT a fan of usually) about how football breeds dysfunctional "friendships".
 
 The latter is especially true of offensive linemen, where both Martin and his alleged tormentor—Richie Incognito—play. Coaches love an offensive line that is cohesive on and off the field. You are encouraged to become a clique. You are encouraged to see your line as a team within the team. A band apart. A faction of the team that is even teamier than the team itself. You're even given your own collective nickname. YOU GUYS ARE THE DIRT DOGS, or whatever the fuck. You are encouraged to be brothers in arms.
 
 

pdaj

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Shelterdog said:
 
Because--like Pouncey's special brand of stupid-- it justifies RI's behavior.
 
It's more about presenting the various views that exist regarding these circumstances, especially within NFL circles, as opposed to only piling on Incognito, which is really easy to do right now. It's also about admitting that the NFL culture is complicated. Regardless of what the typical citizen thinks, players in Miami's locker room will be split on this. Players in the NFL will be split on this. This truth doesn't justify Incognito's behavior -- but it does show that the NFL has its work cut out for itself if it plans on preventing something like this from happening again. 
 

Merkle's Boner

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The NFL is fucking remarkable how it keeps on going through all this shit. Over the weekend you had not one, but two head coaches sent to the hospital with life-threatening issues most likely related to stress coming from insane working conditions and hours. Now you have this situation which, in my opinion, is only going to get worse as every investigative reporter starts looking under the hood of each team. Add that the always present concussion issue, along with I believe a record number of IR placements this year.

And yet, come next Sunday a large swath of this country will eagerly plop themselves in front of their 50-inch TVs for 7 hours of game watching.

In short, I miss baseball.
 

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Merkle's Boner said:
The NFL is fucking remarkable how it keeps on going through all this shit. Over the weekend you had not one, but two head coaches sent to the hospital with life-threatening issues most likely related to stress coming from insane working conditions and hours. Now you have this situation which, in my opinion, is only going to get worse as every investigative reporter starts looking under the hood of each team. Add that the always present concussion issue, along with I believe a record number of IR placements this year.

And yet, come next Sunday a large swath of this country will eagerly plop themselves in front of their 50-inch TVs for 7 hours of game watching.
 
 
The NFL has a great product.  Vanilla ice cream is made with beaver anus glands and meth gives you skin lesions and makes your teeth fall out.
 
Merkle's Boner said:
In short, I miss baseball.
 
I do too.  Good thing it doesn't have a dark underbelly of abuse and coverups.
 
edit: but seriously, the things you mention do indeed bother me, especially since I love the NFL.  Anything beyond mild, playful hazing is complete bullish*t, sophomoric, and unacceptable.  At least, however, it is something that can be changed.  It's the health issues in general, and theconcussion-issue in particular, that really worry me.  I'm not sure that you can have football as we know it without those issues, and I do feel bad at being so entertained by watching people risk their long-term health (even if they make a lot of money doing it, which most of them don't.)  
 

NatetheGreat

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I'm old enough to remember when the NBA was the league full of "thugs." Now its just dudes with backpacks and urkel clothes and Chris Bosh blogging about his coding skills or whatever. Meanwhile, I feel like the NFL is trending in the other direction, and if they don't get a handle on it they're going to develop a real image problem.
 

E5 Yaz

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NatetheGreat said:
...  if they don't get a handle on it they're going to develop a real image problem.
 
This might be wishful thinking. No image problem will be enough to damage the NFL ... not with the amount of money involved in media contracts, gambling, fantasy football and product marketing. 
 
The NBA in those years developed an image problem at that point combined with poor revenue streams. The NFL will absorb this blow
 

dbn

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E5 Yaz said:
 
This might be wishful thinking. No image problem will be enough to damage the NFL ... not with the amount of money involved in media contracts, gambling, fantasy football and product marketing. 
 
The NBA in those years developed an image problem at that point combined with poor revenue streams. The NFL will absorb this blow
 
While I somewhat agree with this sentiment, the league's success is a double-edged sword in this respect.  The more popular it is the more people pay attention to its problems and well as its successes.  Also, workers murdering people, or regularly get hazed or concussed, draws more attention and ire when the employer is making tons of green from their efforts.  
 

rymflaherty

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The justification for "hazing" and other such rituals is that it is paying dues and helps create bonds among teammates.
But that's only the case if after some form of hazing you then take the rookies out, make them feel welcome and bond. If you follow it up by picking on them some more or calling them the N-word, it's probably going to have the opposite effect.
 
ESPN Monday Night Crew just held no punches going after both Incognito and the Dolphins organization. 
 

smastroyin

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As much as I think Richie is a scumbag, I also wouldn't be all that surprised to hear that he was tacitly given the order to preform a code red equivalent on martin. I'm going to guess that Martin did not enamour himself with the other guys on the line, or the line coach, given his personality and performance. It doesn't excuse his behavior or methods, of course, but I also have a hard time believing that none of this was known to the coaching staff.
 

SteveF

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Reverend said:
I am in no way endorsing hazing, but one thing that is getting missed here is that hazing, done correctly, is purposeful behavior: specifically, hazing is done to bring about solidarity through shared experience of an adversarial nature.
I'm sure this is a part of it, but the bigger part of it has to do with valuing membership to the group.
 
People have a psychological need for consistency in thought and behavior.  In the case of hazing, the logic proceeds like this:  The only way I would put up with this horrible treatment is if being accepted into this group were worth the trouble.  Therefore, if I put up with this horrible treatment, membership in this group must be really valuable.  The worse the hazing, the more valuable membership in this group would have to be for me to put up with it.
 
The point of hazing is to increase the value of membership in the minds of its members, thereby improving loyalty and compliance to the group.
 

ChefDJW

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I'm sure this is a part of it, but the bigger part of it has to do with valuing membership to the group.

People have a psychological need for consistency in thought and behavior. In the case of hazing, the logic proceeds like this: The only way I would put up with this horrible treatment is if being accepted into this group were worth the trouble. Therefore, if I put up with this horrible treatment, membership in this group must be really valuable. The worse the hazing, the more valuable membership in this group would have to be for me to put up with it.

The point of hazing is to increase the value of membership in the minds of its members, thereby improving loyalty and compliance to the group.

I dunno, sounds like brainwashing.
 

canderson

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If anyone has spent a considerable chunk of time in college or pro football locker rooms, this episode shouldn't be all that jaw-dropping to you. It's an epidemic that happens many places, thankfully (I guess) less extreme than this case and with individuals who aren't as emotional as Martin (or as smart / understanding / aware ... ).

During the Sandusky scandal a lot of talk about centered around "football culture" - there us a culture among many players that leads to this behavior. I'm sure it happens in all sports, but football players tend to be larger, more meatheadish, less intelligent and self-involved.

I hope Martin can get through this but more importantly I hope this leads to some type of wreaking of the bullying culture.
 

NortheasternPJ

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canderson said:
If anyone has spent a considerable chunk of time in college or pro football locker rooms, this episode shouldn't be all that jaw-dropping to you. It's an epidemic that happens many places, thankfully (I guess) less extreme than this case and with individuals who aren't as emotional as Martin (or as smart / understanding / aware ... ).

During the Sandusky scandal a lot of talk about centered around "football culture" - there us a culture among many players that leads to this behavior. I'm sure it happens in all sports, but football players tend to be larger, more meatheadish, less intelligent and self-involved.

I hope Martin can get through this but more importantly I hope this leads to some type of wreaking of the bullying culture.
 
 
Honest question have you spent a considerable chunk of time in a competitive college (top 25, top 50) or NFL locker room? If so, I'd like your honest take on it as I'm sure most people around here haven't.
 

pdaj

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soxfan121 said:
 
1. If you've got years of managing staff, you know full well that the context you (Dolphins fan) is seeking is completely and utterly irrelevant. Even if the OL as a unit consistently engaged in such "ribald banter", what Incognito did (assuming Schefter/others are correct and that voicemail/text was sent to Martin) constitutes workplace harassment and would get any supervisor and/or employee at the very least suspended, if not terminated. I totally understand Dolphins fans desperately wanting this to be a "boys being boys" situation....it's past that point now. There is no way that the "context" you're looking for is going to matter. What matters is what was said and what can be proven. And if Incognito sent that voicemail and ANYONE in the Dolphins organization knew about it...well, you've got years of "managing staff"...what do you think is going to happen?
 
2. You are dangerously close to the "she was askin for it with that short skirt" defense here. I am positive that's not your intent but it does not matter AT ALL if Martin attempted suicide or not. That you are using the allegations of Incognito's father (who is clearly unhinged and mentally ill himself, if he wrote that disgusting and awful shit posted earlier in the thread) as evidence suggests that you're not thinking about this rationally. As is that douchebag Kouffman you quoted at length, with the BS about Martin's family. 
 
Let's put it simply - regardless of Martin's mental status, what Incognito (allegedly) did broke several workplace laws. Yes, the NFL is not a usual workplace, which is why Incognito is still employed today. In just about every other employment situation, a co-worker who threatens the life of another co-worker is terminated, with possible criminal charges to ensue. It doesn't matter if Martin was the most suicidal person in the history of the world - it is not Martin's actions that matter in this situation. The Dolphins would be really smart to pay him while he's on the NFI list and make this part of it a non-issue, regardless of whether Martin has "Harvard educated litigators" in his family or not. If Incognito threatened Martin (using "I'll kill you") and threatened Martin's family, it isn't going to matter if Martin is related to Alan fucking Dershowitz. This ceased to be about Martin the moment he notified team personnel (ANY team personnel) of the contents of the voicemail. 
 
As for why Martin "hung out" with Incognito - that's on Joe Philbin and the coaching staff for making Incognito a "team leader". As you suggest, it's rarely cut & dried when analyzing behavior but it's easy to draw the inference that Martin - rookie/2nd year player - was told to "follow" Incognito - veteran and "team leader". If Martin said to his position coach, "hey, this guy makes me feel uncomfortable" it isn't outrageous to surmise that a coach told him to "toughen up" and follow Incognito's example. 
 
3. It is hard for me to believe a guy as smart and sensitive as Martin reportedly is did not mention this to someone - a coach, a trainer, someone. And that's where it gets dicey for the Dolphins. If Martin told a position coach and that person failed to report it to Philbin, that position coach has put the organization in real hot water, legally. If Martin told Philbin and Philbin did nothing, Philbin is DONE as a coach. And if Martin's allegation got to Ireland - even secondhand - and Ireland did nothing, I expect the NFL to drop the motherfucking hammer on the whole team, including Ireland. 
 
None of what I posted was to excuse Incognito of his behavior, but rather to (possibly) explain why 1. Incognito may have felt comfortable leaving that voicemail (Was this how they spoke to each other all of the time?) and 2. the Dolphins made the initial press release they did. http://www.miamidolphins.com/news/press-releases/article-1/Miami-Dolphins-Statement-On-Jonathan-Martin/4d417b72-ad82-4ec9-8ce2-1ce6d2a560b2?campaign=mia:fanshare:twitter (Were they only aware of Martin's past mental issues and not privy to Incognito's harassment?)
 
Phiblin, during his press conference a short while ago, stated the following:
 
- On the Monday of the week Miami was prepping for the Bengals, Martin left the team following an incident in the team's dining hall. 
- Philbin made contact with Martin, and they agreed to meet and talk the following day. After the meeting, Philbin maintained contact with Martin and his family throughout the week.
- According to Philbin, at no time did Martin make an accusation of player misconduct to him.
- The Dolphins made their initial press release, which at the time, Philbin claims was "100% factual."
- Soon after, Martin's parents presented the voicemail/text evidence. Again, according to Philbin, this was the first time he was made aware of any player misconduct. As a result of the new information, Incognito was suspended.
- The Dolphins' leadership council was put together by/voted on by the players.
 
SoxFan121,
 
I agree that in your typical professional working environment, Incognito would be long gone for the voicemail alone, regardless of the context. In fact, it doesn't take much at all for you to put your job in jeopardy nowadays. A simple off-color joke, or being overheard telling a fellow employee, "I'm really not attracted to fat girls" could put you in serious hot water. As a result, over the years, I've developed a really boring work personality. I don't discuss my personal life or political views, and I rarely share a joke.
 
But that's not what most people do. From what I've seen, most employees "feel each other out", gradually become acquainted with each other's threshold, and then act accordingly. This strategy often works, but it's not without flaws. I've seen co-worker get his or her friend fired after a falling out far too many times. The "rules of engagement" between two people can often change quickly.
 
A few years ago, I supervised two male staff-members, one of whom was African ("Todd"), while the other was Dominican ("Brian"). They were always busting each other's balls and having a good time. I knew they genuinely liked each other, because they'd often hit the bar together after weekend shifts. That said, their jokes with each other were often racially based -- so much so, that I met with them together to address issue of maintaining a professional work environment for others. 
 
A couple months after this, I was conducting a staff meeting and discussing a new client that would be soon residing at one of our group homes. As we discussed this individual's maladaptive behaviors (which included serious aggression), Todd asked, "How tall is he?" The Dominican staff-member quickly responded with, "Why do you care? You're the biggest guy here. You have nothing to worry about." The rest of the dialogue went something like this:
 
Todd: "What do you mean I'm big? Are you saying I'm fat?"
Brian: "What?"
Todd: "I'm not fucking fat."
Brian: "Relax, man. I'm just saying you can handle yourself with anyone. Chill."
Todd: "Fuck you."
 
Todd then stormed out and went to HR the very next day, accusing Brian of continual harassment. Jokes that were exchanged over 6 months prior were cited as examples. Interestingly enough, Todd later retracted his statements, admitted to being bipolar and off his meds, and then took a 6-month medical leave of absence before returning. 
 
Edit (I hit submit prematurely): One's mental state can factor into situations like this. Both Todd and Brian were guilty of being unprofessional with each other for a long time, but Todd reached a point where he needed a break from it. This is why organizations commit to annual trainings on maintaining appropriate work relationships -- but it's nearly impossible to keep people who work so closely together from discussing their personal lives, opinions, jokes, etc.
 
Most companies have a protocol in place for handling harassment claims, and for my organization, it works something like this:
 
- Confront/communicate with the person who you feel harassed by. Tell him/her what he said/did made you uncomfortable.
- If the problem persists, inform your immediate supervisor.
- The supervisor gives feedback, makes changes as needed.
- Further incidents are brought to HR; person is most likely suspended/terminated
 
1) What is the Dolphins' protocol? 2) Did Martin follow it?
 
Following the protocol prevents the mega-blowup we're seeing today. If Martin did, but his concerns were not dealt with appropriately, I can't imagine Philbin surviving this. However, if he didn't, he's partly responsible for this reaching the point that it has. 
 
One more edit: Added Philbin's comments on the leadership council.
 

Montana Fan

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Last year there was an issue with JPP et al hazing Prince Amukamura by dumping him in a cold tub of ice.  A link to the article and video is below.  That sure seemed like bullying as does this Incognito/Martin incident.  The thing that's missing from Incognito/Martin is the physicality.  I have to believe there was something done phyiscally to Martin for him to be this affected mentally.
 
 
Apart from the fact that Amukamara could have gotten injured, there’s something about the video that seems like something more than innocent hazing — especially since Prince isn’t a rookie.
And even though it appears that a good time is being had by all, Prince doesn’t look very happy when he gets out of the cold tub.  Pierre-Paul doesn’t seem happy either, barking obscenities as he walks past the camera.
 
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/08/18/jpp-dumps-prince-amukamura-in-cold-tub/
 

Reverend

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NatetheGreat said:
I'm old enough to remember when the NBA was the league full of "thugs." Now its just dudes with backpacks and urkel clothes and Chris Bosh blogging about his coding skills or whatever. Meanwhile, I feel like the NFL is trending in the other direction, and if they don't get a handle on it they're going to develop a real image problem.
It's not an "image problem." It's a fucking problem.

The way image of a problem has gotten elevated over having actual problems in our discourse might literally be one of the worst things to happen in our civilization.
 

JBill

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Dolphins beat guy for the Palm Beach Post on twitter has a lot of quotes from Dolphin players supporting Incognito.
 
To sum up:
 
Dolphins players backed Richie Incognito. Many of them seemed upset that he is gone and they don't seem to think it was warranted.
 
 
 
https://twitter.com/abramsonpbp
 

riboflav

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Reverend said:
It's not an "image problem." It's a fucking problem.

The way image of a problem has gotten elevated over having actual problems in our discourse might literally be one of the worst things to happen in our civilization.
 
You sound like a modernist.
 

canderson

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NortheasternPJ said:
Honest question have you spent a considerable chunk of time in a competitive college (top 25, top 50) or NFL locker room? If so, I'd like your honest take on it as I'm sure most people around here haven't.
I have college, but had a few friends play in the NFL (well sorta play, 3rd string guys). Also spent time covering the Astros in 2001 and 2002 summers.

I'll preface by saying I love football and this is IMO a problem mostly due to sheer numbers. Football players are harsh on freshman or rookies. I always thought the Longhorns locker room was similar to a frat, and always heard the NFL locker rooms weren't much different.

Football is a power sport, guys are judged on their toughness and strength and being men. In a competitive culture this leads to picking on a weak link. I'd think usually it is practice squad or guys who hold clipboards that get the abuse so they suck it up because it's a paycheck and they are hanging on to a dream by fingernails.

In baseball I never experienced the same atmosphere - so many different cultures lead to that I'm sure. In football guys you have 53 guys + practice squad guys so the mass numbers are much higher than any other sport.

This story is all sorts of sordid.
 

Ed Hillel

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JBill said:
Dolphins beat guy for the Palm Beach Post on twitter has a lot of quotes from Dolphin players supporting Incognito.
 
To sum up:
 
 
 
https://twitter.com/abramsonpbp
 
What the hell is wrong with this organization? Why are any of them even saying a damn thing in the first place? Some of those quotes are just completely tone deaf, from Wallace and Wake in particular, though I can't really say that is surprising.
 

moly99

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Keep in mind that this is hardly Incognito's first infraction. He has been one of the most heavily penalized players for personal fouls over the past decade and is considered by his peers to be the dirtiest player in the NFL. There is a reason so many teams have eventually decided he isn't worth keeping around.
 

dcmissle

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JBill said:
Dolphins beat guy for the Palm Beach Post on twitter has a lot of quotes from Dolphin players supporting Incognito.
 
To sum up:
 
 
 
https://twitter.com/abramsonpbp
Not surprised. Saw a couple of player interviews on NFLN that seemed to trend that way.

Have little doubt that the bully is the biggest dick around. But he is their dick, and they probably resent the "invasion" of their locker room by, in their view, the PC police.

Going to be awkward for the NFLPA

Will not be surprised if we learn the victim is a latter day Barrett Robbins. That would excuse none of this, of course, but might explain part of it
 

E5 Yaz

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dcmissle said:
Will not be surprised if we learn the victim is a latter day Barrett Robbins. That would excuse none of this, of course, but might explain part of it
 
I think you've made a bad choice of words. This extreme verbal abuse could be "explained" if Martin has a history of mental illness?
 

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seageral

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Ed Hillel said:
 
What the hell is wrong with this organization? Why are any of them even saying a damn thing in the first place? Some of those quotes are just completely tone deaf, from Wallace and Wake in particular, though I can't really say that is surprising.
seriously fuck the dolphins
 

Ed Hillel

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To be fair, I think you would find these same type of quotes in other places as well, at least as far as the players go. There are a lot of idiots in the NFL. I'm just not so sure how many organizations would even allow their players to be commenting on this right now, especially with the ongoing investigation. All the players are doing is digging the organization and the NFL itself a bigger hole here.
 

dcmissle

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E5 Yaz said:
 
I think you've made a bad choice of words. This extreme verbal abuse could be "explained" if Martin has a history of mental illness?
His illness could explain why he endured it so long, and then apparently snapped. According to Philbin, he spoke with the guy several times very recently, and none of this came up. I'm not going to assume at this point that Philbim is lying.