Rubby De La Rosa

[SoxScout]

While he has pitched enough to not be on official prospect lists, he's on SP's and we are waiting for him, so he's a prospect.
 
Here is video of his time with the Dodgers: http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/search/media.jsp?player_id=523989

 

Pedro Martinez has taken to Rubby De La Rosa, and not only because the pair just discovered they’re related (cousins on Pedro’s mother side).
 
The new Red Sox special assistant and the 23-year-old pitching prospect have been inseparable throughout camp, with Martinez constantly at the ready whenever De La Rosa might need a round of advice. And, besides bloodlines, there’s a reason for the former ace’s interest — he sees a bit of himself in the youngster.
 
“Anything you want to do in baseball, as far as pitching, that kid has a chance,” Martinez said. “He has an opportunity to be someone special. Not just a regular player, but special. When you see someone like De La Rosa you think someone special, like a [Roger] Clemens, a Juan Marichal. You think about elite players. That’s the type of stuff he has.”
 
“What really impresses me is his progress,” Pedro said. “He’s a young kid. Very young. The way he changed physically, and the way he improved … His velocity went from day night and day. It’s unbelievable how he changed. Also, his will to work. You rarely see a young kid like that so willing to work, and so open to work to do things things nobody expects a young kid wanting to do.”

It isn’t the first time De La Rosa has impressed, as was evidenced by comments made by his former minor league pitching coach, Chuck Crim, to WEEI.com’s Alex Speier early in the offseason. (That was when Pedro’s name first came up.)
 
“Very few guys have that arm speed that Rubby has and still are able to start, carry innings and have a tremendous out-pitch,” said Crim. “I would say a guy like maybe Pedro Martinez. The throw is different, but the stuff is there. You could probably compare his actual stuff but not his [throwing motion] to a guy like that. Granted, it’s going to take Rubby a few years to have all the experience and knowledge of major league pitching, but the stuff you could probably compare to Pedro. I consider the attitude the same — the mound presence is very confident that he can get anybody out. With that guy’s stuff, who wouldn’t be confident?”

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/02/23/pedro-martinez-rubby-de-la-rosa-has-chance-to-be-someone-special/

 

[Al Zarilla]

“Very few guys have that arm speed that Rubby has and still are able to start, carry innings and have a tremendous out-pitch,” said Crim. “I would say a guy like maybe Pedro Martinez. The throw is different, but the stuff is there. You could probably compare his actual stuff but not his [throwing motion] to a guy like that.

My mind won't let my feelings go there (comparing him to Pedro). It's like the Patriots having a new running back and using him in the same sentence with Jim Brown, or someone comparing a new Celtics player with Russell or Bird. Bruins...Orr. Can't do it. Yet. 

 

[ragnarok725]

For sure - the Pedro stuff is a nice anecdote but there really is no basis for going there. The positivity and buzz from camp in general is really good to hear, though. Rubby is the wildcard in the starting pitching puzzle. One of the guys breaking camp will struggle or get hurt at some point. He'll get a chance if he proves he's ready for it. 

 

[koufax32]

In those highlights we really get to see the electric fastball.  There are several instances of 99 mph heaters with serious movement.  Interesting that these highlights didn't really include a lights-out changeup.  There were a couple that were 89 that caused some ugly swings but certainly not Pedro-esque.  If my memory serves correctly, wasn't Pedro between 94-97 with hsi fastball and around 80 with his changeup?  A 15 mph difference makes a changeup devestating.  a 7-9 mph difference is enough to cause some swings and misses but it's certainly not in the Pedro category.  Is there any video evidence of a more helacious mph differential or am I misremebering talk about RDLR's changeup?

 

[Al Zarilla]

In those highlights we really get to see the electric fastball.  There are several instances of 99 mph heaters with serious movement.  Interesting that these highlights didn't really include a lights-out changeup.  There were a couple that were 89 that caused some ugly swings but certainly not Pedro-esque.  If my memory serves correctly, wasn't Pedro between 94-97 with hsi fastball and around 80 with his changeup?  A 15 mph difference makes a changeup devestating.  a 7-9 mph difference is enough to cause some swings and misses but it's certainly not in the Pedro category.  Is there any video evidence of a more helacious mph differential or am I misremebering talk about RDLR's changeup?

Are you sure about that? If the changeup is too slow, hitters start getting time to recognize that it is one, and have a better chance of not being fooled into thinking it's a fastball, assuming the pitcher's arm looks the same on each pitch. For example, when Lincecum's fastball dropped to the 92 range, a lot was made that his changeup, at 86 or so, was too close in speed. It had been like 96 - 86 in his Cy Young years. 

 

[Rough Carrigan]

At his peak, Pedro was throwing a 95 mph fastball and a 78 mph changeup and I remember the commentary all being to the effect that the great difference in speed was what made the changeup so great.

 

[MakMan44]

As Sprowl noted on the main board the added height he gained over the offseason, about 3 inches, should help him stick as a starter. 
 
I still can't believe that we were able to get this kid in the Punto trade. Pedro connection aside, I'm fucking excited to see what he does in a full season. Obviously we have to temper our exceptions because he had TJS, what a year and a half ago? Still, it's hard not to get excited when you've got someone with his kind of talent waiting in AAA

 

[OttoC]

Now, if I only knew whether the pronunciation of his name rhymed with grubby or doobie.

 

[Brianish]

Doobie, according to everything I've seen. 

 

[PrometheusWakefield]

At his peak, Pedro was throwing a 95 mph fastball and a 78 mph changeup and I remember the commentary all being to the effect that the great difference in speed was what made the changeup so great.

Everybody is right.  The ideal changeup BOTH has a great deal of separation from the fastball AND has a delivery that looks exactly the same as the fastball delivery.  These two goals are somewhat in tension with each other, since the more separation there is the more likely the batter is going to be able to spot the difference based on arm movement.  Pedro's change was great because it had great separation and it was deceptive (and it had great screwball movement as well).  

 

[Franklin Fanatic]

I think I heard Farrell talking about an 100 inning limit due to the TJS.  I can't wait to see him in Pawtucket.

 

[MyDaughterLovesTomGordon]

As Sprowl noted on the main board the added height he gained over the offseason, about 3 inches, should help him stick as a starter. 
 
I still can't believe that we were able to get this kid in the Punto trade. Pedro connection aside, I'm fucking excited to see what he does in a full season. Obviously we have to temper our exceptions because he had TJS, what a year and a half ago? Still, it's hard not to get excited when you've got someone with his kind of talent waiting in AAA

You understand he didn't actually grow three inches in the offseason, yes?

 

[MakMan44]

You understand he didn't actually grow three inches in the offseason, yes?

I did not. I am now disappointed 
 
EDIT: Well I did think it was far fetched but when Sprowl posted his comment I thought it was serious. Haven't seen any pictures of him in SP, not that it's much of an excuse

 

[MonstahsInLeft]

You understand he didn't actually grow three inches in the offseason, yes?

 
Hey the kid put some SERIOUS time in at the gym...give credit where credit is due.
 
Alternatively, the next-generation of PED's are REALLY impressive.

 

[MakMan44]

Hey the kid put some SERIOUS time in at the gym...give credit where credit is due.
 
Alternatively, the next-generation of PED's are REALLY impressive.

Or he could've just visited Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory over the offseason 
 

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Hey the kid put some SERIOUS time in at the gym...give credit where credit is due.
 
Alternatively, the next-generation of PED's are REALLY impressive.

 
Maybe he hung from a pull up bar, a la Bobby Brady.

 

[Al Zarilla]

At his peak, Pedro was throwing a 95 mph fastball and a 78 mph changeup and I remember the commentary all being to the effect that the great difference in speed was what made the changeup so great.

Maybe Pedro did that, but I spent some time at BrooksBaseball.net, and, for at least what they're calling changeups, seeing about 6 - 9 mph difference between average fastball and average change. Even Verlander was only about 9 mph difference; roughly 97 avg. on fasballs, 88 on changeups. Small sample size, but I still maintain that if you throw the change too slow, hitters get time to react and hit it hard.  

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Could they, though? I mean, if they see arm action that could be 97mph heat, they have to start reacting to it immediately or they'll never catch up to it. Even if they recognize it as a change up a fraction of a second later, they shouldn't have time to reset and truly drive the ball. Unless you're talking about 60mph change ups, which would be fairly ridiculous.

 

[MakMan44]

Maybe Pedro did that, but I spent some time at BrooksBaseball.net, and, for at least what they're calling changeups, seeing about 6 - 9 mph difference between average fastball and average change. Even Verlander was only about 9 mph difference; roughly 97 avg. on fasballs, 88 on changeups. Small sample size, but I still maintain that if you throw the change too slow, hitters get time to react and hit it hard.  

 
 

Could they, though? I mean, if they see arm action that could be 97mph heat, they have to start reacting to it immediately or they'll never catch up to it. Even if they recognize it as a change up a fraction of a second later, they shouldn't have time to reset and truly drive the ball. Unless you're talking about 60mph change ups, which would be fairly ridiculous.

 
I think Snod has the right on this one. If you want to hit a 97+ MPH fastball you're going to have to cheat a little; you won't have the time to reset and react to a change up, no matter the difference in MPH

 

[Al Zarilla]

Could they, though? I mean, if they see arm action that could be 97mph heat, they have to start reacting to it immediately or they'll never catch up to it. Even if they recognize it as a change up a fraction of a second later, they shouldn't have time to reset and truly drive the ball. Unless you're talking about 60mph change ups, which would be fairly ridiculous.

Good point, but the days of the really slow changeup seem to be gone. Maybe a reason is if a pitcher tries to use the same arm motion with the change that he does with his fastball, there is too much strain on his arm from "holding back" if he tries to throw too slow.
 

I think Snod has the right on this one. If you want to hit a 97+ MPH fastball you're going to have to cheat a little; you won't have the time to reset and react to a change up, no matter the difference in MPH

That's a valid way of looking at it. Still, who throws the big delta, fastball to changeup anymore. Maybe Rubby?

 

[radsoxfan]

Could they, though? I mean, if they see arm action that could be 97mph heat, they have to start reacting to it immediately or they'll never catch up to it. Even if they recognize it as a change up a fraction of a second later, they shouldn't have time to reset and truly drive the ball. Unless you're talking about 60mph change ups, which would be fairly ridiculous.

 
Agreed. We're talking about such a short period of time, assuming pitchers maintain their fastball mechanics, hitters can't really reset and react to a change up thats "too slow" unless were talking about a 50-60 mph eephus pitch.
 
But the main problem is that it's near impossible to use the exact same arm motion and release as your fastball, and have a 20 mph difference on the pitch. If the hitter can spot change up before or as the pitch is even released, then the pitcher is screwed.  
 
Basically, deception and arm speed are the first priority otherwise the pitch will get crushed.  Once you have that down, you can tinker to see how you might increase the speed separation.  But if you start by trying to have a large mph gap with a slower motion, hitters will easily figure it out.
 
Beckett took this to the extreme, as there were some games he only had a 3-4 mph difference between fastball and change up (mostly due to declining FB velocities).  Of course at that point, even if you maintain your arm action, you basically are just throwing a shittier fastball. And the "deception" isn't all that helpful.

 

[nvalvo]

Lincecum is an interesting case study on this question. Check it out on fangraphs.  
 
Between 2008-9, at Dave Righetti's advice, the reigning Cy Young took about 2 mph off his average fastball, and gave up a lot of value on that pitch, 26.0 runs down to 9.4. But by throwing with less strain, he matched the arm-action to his change, taking the run value of the change from 7.5 to 33.7, which I believe was the most valuable pitch in baseball that year. The velocity of the change was constant around 83 mph. 
 
In short, by not throwing quite as hard as he could, he got his total combination of pitches into a kind of sync where he was even better. 

 

[Sprowl]

I did not. I am now disappointed 
 
EDIT: Well I did think it was far fetched but when Sprowl posted his comment I thought it was serious. Haven't seen any pictures of him in SP, not that it's much of an excuse

 
I am quite serious. Now that we know that his true height is 6'1, we can be more optimistic about him building the stamina to throw 7 innings. When he added those extra 3 inches isn't important (and it certainly wasn't over the last year) -- what is important is that he's a reasonably big guy with excellent velocity and a changeup that observers rave about.

 

[pantsparty]

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/player_cards/player_card.php?player=453329
 
Buchholz has a ~13 MPH difference between his 4-seamer and change and his change is his pitch with the highest swing and miss percentage. A separation that large is uncommon, but I think it's uncommon not because it's counterproductive but rather just because it's really hard to do while maintaining the same delivery.

 

[MakMan44]

 
I am quite serious. Now that we know that his true height is 6'1, we can be more optimistic about him building the stamina to throw 7 innings. When he added those extra 3 inches isn't important (and it certainly wasn't over the last year) -- what is important is that he's a reasonably big guy with excellent velocity and a changeup that observers rave about.

Ah well that makes a lot of sense
He did really, really well in first game today too. As I said above I can not believe that Ben got him in the Punto trade.

 

[NDBoston]

Sean McAdam ‏@Sean_McAdam
Rubby de la Rosa hit 100 mph on Red Sox' gun. "Electric stuff," said John Farrell.

 

[radsoxfan]

 

Sean McAdam ‏@Sean_McAdam
Rubby de la Rosa hit 100 mph on Red Sox' gun. "Electric stuff," said John Farrell.

 
 
Guess he's not exactly easing himself into spring training.... yikes.

 

[Granite Sox]

The Pedro Effect

 

[Twilight]

Good point, but the days of the really slow changeup seem to be gone. Maybe a reason is if a pitcher tries to use the same arm motion with the change that he does with his fastball, there is too much strain on his arm from "holding back" if he tries to throw too slow.

Maybe someone who has pitched or been coached at a decent level can weigh in here, but I was always taught that the change up was a slower speed solely as a result of using a different grip, and not throwing slower. Holding it deeper in your hand means you can't throw it as fast, even if your arm is going the same speed (palm ball, circle change, etc.).

They said if you changed your arm's motion, you'd end up injuring your arm--or your neck, from whiplash...

 

[PrometheusWakefield]

When was the last time we had a pitcher who could hit triple digits?

 

[NDBoston]

Not that long ago...
 
http://www.efastball.com/baseball/stats/fastest-pitch-speed-in-major-leagues/
 

101.3 (12), Daniel Bard (Red Sox), 7/30/2009, Fenway Park

 

[MakMan44]

When was the last time we had a pitcher who could hit triple digits?

Here's hoping we don't break this one too. 

 

[TheGoldenGreek33]

but I was always taught that the change up was a slower speed solely as a result of using a different grip, and not throwing slower. Holding it deeper in your hand means you can't throw it as fast, even if your arm is going the same speed (palm ball, circle change, etc.).

They said if you changed your arm's motion, you'd end up injuring your arm--or your neck, from whiplash...

 
Correct. And obviously, if you decrease arm speed, you'd be tipping the pitch — pro hitters pick that up pretty quickly. 

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Maybe someone who has pitched or been coached at a decent level can weigh in here, but I was always taught that the change up was a slower speed solely as a result of using a different grip, and not throwing slower. Holding it deeper in your hand means you can't throw it as fast, even if your arm is going the same speed (palm ball, circle change, etc.).

They said if you changed your arm's motion, you'd end up injuring your arm--or your neck, from whiplash...

 
In that book of Bill James and Rob Neyer's about pitch repertoires, they mention in a couple of places that early pitchers did change speeds by interrupting their arm motion, and that this was indeed tough on the arm. They also say that another common way of changing up was to drag the back foot--I guess this would work by reducing the forward momentum of the body at the moment of release? (Sounds like a good recipe for a groin pull, but maybe I'm picturing it wrong.)

 

[czar]

Maybe someone who has pitched or been coached at a decent level can weigh in here, but I was always taught that the change up was a slower speed solely as a result of using a different grip, and not throwing slower. Holding it deeper in your hand means you can't throw it as fast, even if your arm is going the same speed (palm ball, circle change, etc.).

They said if you changed your arm's motion, you'd end up injuring your arm--or your neck, from whiplash...

My changeup was my best pitch in high school/college and the only thing I did different was the grip (threw a circle change, so the ball was pushed back further in my hand and therefore had A) more frictional resistance on the way out and B) I wasn't able to pick up as much through wrist snap at release).

Identical arm slot, identical arm speed. It's tough to envision how throwing a changeup by adjusting mechanics doesn't lead to problems (whether they be repeatability or injury-related) down the road.

 

[mabrowndog]

Recap from Projo, with Farrell on Rubby
 
 

De La Rosa, who was slated to throw only one inning on Sunday, instead went two quick ones without hitting his pitch limit of 25. While retiring the Cardinals in order twice in a row, De La Rosa touched 100 on Boston's radar gun.
 
"Three pitches for strikes, confidence on the mound -- a lot of good things out of him," said a clearly impressed John Farrell. "Up 100 miles per hour today and three pitches for strikes, it's quite a combination."
 
The Red Sox are being cautious with De La Rosa, who threw only 13 2/3 innings in 2012 after undergoing Tommy John surgery in August 2011. Unlike a pitcher such as John Lackey that has built up a strong innings base, De La Rosa has never topped 110 innings in a season. Boston doesn't want to go too far beyond that mark in 2013.
 
Consequently, the Sox are limiting De La Rosa to two-inning stints this spring. Keeping the training wheels on, though, may get tougher the more outings the young right-hander has like this one.

 

"He's an interesting case," Farrell said. "Physically, in short stints, he might be ahead of what a realistic plan would be for him."
 
"I feel comfortable," said De La Rosa. "Right now, [my arm] feels better than before the surgery."
 
Given the restraints the Red Sox want to place on De La Rosa, there might be a chance he sees some time in the bullpen -- while still preparing for a future as a starter. Farrell didn't close the door on that possibility on Sunday.
 
"When you profile that out -- three pitches like that -- you'd say, yeah, he's a starter," he said. "It's electric stuff. Without getting too far ahead of ourselves, time will tell what role he settles into."

 

[Rough Carrigan]

Friends and co-workers and I have a somewhat irregularly scheduled poker game.  We play for small stakes but we'd like to invite someone with a ton of money but who has his head completely up his ass 'd to sit in for at least one game.  Does anyone have Ned Colletti's number?
 
My god.
 
He takes on declining Beckett, shoulder damaged Gonzalez, who knows what condition Crawford and gives us Webster and Rubby all just to get Punto!

 

[MakMan44]

Friends and co-workers and I have a somewhat irregularly scheduled poker game.  We play for small stakes but we'd like to invite someone with a ton of money but who has his head completely up his ass 'd to sit in for at least one game.  Does anyone have Ned Colletti's number?
 
My god.
 
He takes on declining Beckett, shoulder damaged Gonzalez, who knows what condition Crawford and gives us Webster and Rubby all just to get Punto!

Guess he's hoping for an odd year Beckett

 

[Hugh G Rection]

Friends and co-workers and I have a somewhat irregularly scheduled poker game.  We play for small stakes but we'd like to invite someone with a ton of money but who has his head completely up his ass 'd to sit in for at least one game.  Does anyone have Ned Colletti's number?
 
My god.
 
He takes on declining Beckett, shoulder damaged Gonzalez, who knows what condition Crawford and gives us Webster and Rubby all just to get Punto!

 

Add to that, that Webster supposedly hit 99MPH with a sinking fastball the other day and things really look bad for the dodgers in that trade.... Even if it's all hype and the guns are juiced getting two electric arms for a virtual salary dump was very impressive for Ben C.
 
Rubby has been my personal favorite for a bit now and I can't wait to see what he does with regular work. It's hard to tell who the sox are more impressed with between Rubby and Webster they are both getting rave reviews.

 

[SouthernBoSox]

So he looks to be on a pretty serious run right now.   After giving up 10 runs on 7 hits and 6 walks in his first 3 appearances (6.2 innings) he has struck out 19 and walked 4 in 14 innings of scoreless work.
 
He's dominating.   

 

[Hugh G Rection]

It looks like it took hime a bit to shake out the Tommy John rust and now we are seeing what made him so highly toured after the trade. Does anyone have any idea of how his velocity has been? Is he still in the upper nineties or did he take a bit off to increase the command?

Hopefully he can keep this up and increase his workload. As much as I want him to be a starter, he could end up being the closer if Bailey continues to get DL'ed every couple weeks. Bailey has such a violent delivery, I wonder if he really can stay healthy over a full season.

 

[terrynever]

It looks like it took hime a bit to shake out the Tommy John rust and now we are seeing what made him so highly toured after the trade. Does anyone have any idea of how his velocity has been? Is he still in the upper nineties or did he take a bit off to increase the command? Hopefully he can keep this up and increase his workload. As much as I want him to be a starter, he could end up being the closer if Bailey continues to get DL'ed every couple weeks. Bailey has such a violent delivery, I wonder if he really can stay healthy over a full season.

He was throwing his FB between 94-96 last night. Struck out Gwinnett's cleanup hitter Mejia twice on breaking balls. Walked four in four innings. He's a work in progress with a lot of upside.

 

[mabrowndog]

Last post: May 2013. So how about a 9-month update? 
 
Words of comfort and joy with blessings from Pope Farrell.
 

 
Rubby De La Rosa, one of the pitchers the Red Sox got back in the August, 2012 blockbuster with the Dodgers, appeared at ease in firing two shutout innings against BC. The righty has been working on his mechanics and is much more familiar with the organization than when he arrived in Fort Myers a year ago.
 
“I just see a more relaxed guy on the mound,” said John Farrell. “Yeah, I think the second year past, or second year of pitching further away from Tommy John is going to lend to that. He’s come into camp I thought in pretty good shape physically. And all those things combined, I think it was a product of what we saw today.”

 

 

[Orel Miraculous]

Love hearing this kind of stuff. I'm surprised that so many seem to already be slotting RDR into a reliever role for the rest of his career. I still think he can be a top of the rotation starter.

 

[pokey_reese]

I think that it is easy to forget with young kids how long it takes to get command back after TJ surgery.  When a veteran like Lackey has it and comes back relatively quickly with success, some of that has to be attributed to the thousands of hours he has already spent with his mechanics, with his set throwing motion, etc..  A young player has barely established those things and is still evolving as a pitcher, so it's no surprise if it takes a lot longer to get back into a groove after missing that much time with an injury. 
 
If any one of RDLR, Webster, or Owens can really develop command & control in the next year or two, we will be all set.

 

[TheYaz67]

Going to bump Rubby's thread to give him some love - still early, but nice start so far in PAW, rocking a 1.19 ERA through 4 starts, and more importantly only 4 walks to 21 Ks in 22 innings....
 
Keep it up and he is going to move up the depth chart/earn himself some spot starts for the MLB team.

 

[TheYaz67]

Just bumping poor old Rubby, since you know he has been bumped up the show for a start tomorrow - I think that qualifies as "news"....

 

[WenZink]

Just bumping poor old Rubby, since you know he has been bumped up the show for a start tomorrow - I think that qualifies as "news"....

 
I keep on looking at RDLR's game log, as a starter, from 2011.  In 55.2 IP (strictly as a starter in 10 outings), he had 55 K's and 30 BB's.  He pitched at least 5 innings in 8 of his starts, and one of the starts he failed to go 5 was his last one, where presumably he heard something go "pop," since his.  His pitch counts were all high, of course, because of his K's and BB's.
 
I wonder what we'll see, 3 years, one TJ surgery, and almost over 150 innings of milb later.  Is he a better starter?

 

[chrisfont9]

 
I keep on looking at RDLR's game log, as a starter, from 2011.  In 55.2 IP (strictly as a starter in 10 outings), he had 55 K's and 30 BB's.  He pitched at least 5 innings in 8 of his starts, and one of the starts he failed to go 5 was his last one, where presumably he heard something go "pop," since his.  His pitch counts were all high, of course, because of his K's and BB's.
 
I wonder what we'll see, 3 years, one TJ surgery, and almost over 150 innings of milb later.  Is he a better starter?

He's improved his control over the last year, statistically at least. Not just k/bb but HRs (9 in 80IP last year, zero! in 53IP in 2014).
 
 If he trusts his stuff as much in the show as at AAA, then presumably that improved efficiency will show up. That's the hope, at least.

 

[TheYaz67]

Well, he's gotten his 2014 MLB bb/9 rate off to a good start!  Threw that dominant change last night for lots of strikes - swinging and looking....