Shane Victorino and cash considerations to LAA for INF Josh Rutledge.

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,893
Yazdog8 said:
 
Trout AND they take back Sandoval and his contract.
 
Seriously though, I see Rutledge has experience at 2b, SS and 3b. Prelude to trading Holt?
 
Uh, no?
 
Pedroia is hurt, Holt is banged up, and he's youngish, with a good minor league track record.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,893
RedOctober3829 said:
Why wouldn't you trade Holt at this point? Bus value will never be higher and the lack of bats on the market further increases it. A NL contender would go after a player like Holt in a heartbeat.
 
Because he's cheap and the team can use him going forward for the next few seasons.
 

staz

Intangible
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 2, 2004
15,120
The cradle of the game.
Pilgrim said:
Rutledge is not a good player, and not relevant to anything.  He's just a guy the Angels are dumping.
 
Whatever. He was was a legit prospect when he was rushed from AA in 2012 as a 23 year old. There's plenty of miles on these tires... post-hype anyone?
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
41,893
Those wanting to trade Holt--can you name a guy we'd possibly be able to get back?
 
I mean, I don't think you're getting an A or B prospect for him. You're getting a guy that you hope could be him. What's the point?
 

The Boomer

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2000
2,226
Charlottesville, Virginia
Time for excitement.  We just got a cost effective Julio Lugo 2 !
 

[SIZE=.875em] Compare Stats to Similars[/SIZE]
  1. Orlando Miller (979)
  2. Jordy Mercer (975)
  3. Leo Norris (972)
  4. Russ Adams (953)
  5. Lou Klein (952)
  6. Ben Petrick (947)
  7. Brad Miller (945)
  8. Josh Barfield (941)
  9. Heinie Schuble (941)
  10. Dutch Meyer (940)

Similar Batters through 25  
[SIZE=.875em] View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
 Compare Stats to Similars[/SIZE]
  1. Julio Lugo (967)
  2. Jerry Adair (966)
  3. Neifi Perez (960)
  4. Michael Young (960)
  5. Heinie Schuble (959)
  6. Carlos Guillen (959)
  7. Orlando Cabrera (958)
  8. Jason Kipnis (957)
  9. Russ Adams (957)
  10. Luke Appling (954) *
[SIZE=.875em]* - Signifies Hall of Famer[/SIZE]

Most Similar by Ages  
[SIZE=.875em] View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
 Hold mouse over #'s to see names[/SIZE]
  1. Russ Adams (969) [SIZE=.875em] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C[/SIZE]
  2. Julio Lugo (967) [SIZE=.875em] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C[/SIZE]
[SIZE=.875em]* - Signifies Hall of Famer[/SIZE]
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/rutlejo01.shtml
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
12,408
I can't believe how much negativity there is about this trade. They got a backup infielder, a position of relative scarcity given the failure of Marerro and Coyle to develop, with years of control left, for a backup outfielder, of which they have a plethora of options still, who is a pending free agent, and cleared a little salary. What's not to like? Even if they were contending this trade would make a ton of sense.

And let's hope Castillo is here to do more than platoon with DeAza.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
29,614
AZ
mauidano said:
This is not a happy day for Mauidano.  My favorite team traded my favorite player/friend.  Happy for Shane that he gets a chance to go to the playoffs.
 
No player plays forever -- and there will always be 2013.
 
In a season of so many close games and tense at bats, the three things that relieved the tension enough for it to be bearable were (1) Koji, (2) balls hit to short, and (3) balls hit to right.  When you had one of those crazy at bats where the other team had like nine foul balls against Workman in a one-run game with runners on base, and you saw a guy be a little late on the ball and lift it off the end of the bat toward right field, the tension just drifted away immediately because you knew Vic already had the jump on the ball.
 

jscola85

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,305
If one of his top comps really is Jordy Mercer, that's not too bad.  Mercer has been a nice little Alex Cora-like piece for the Pirates the last 2.5 years.
 

The Boomer

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2000
2,226
Charlottesville, Virginia
jscola85 said:
If one of his top comps really is Jordy Mercer, that's not too bad.  Mercer has been a nice little Alex Cora-like piece for the Pirates the last 2.5 years.
 
Even Julio Lugo during his cost effective years before he became a Red Sox free agent isn't a bad comp:
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lugoju01.shtml
 
Rutledge will be worth more than Victorino (whether the Sox keep him or don't) during the next couple of team control years.
 
 

soxhop411

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 4, 2009
36,740
I wasn't going to get into this, but then this happened and I got curious...
Sure, maybe Cherington's just being nice, and I don't mean to be not nice. I do have a short memory, though, so I couldn't help wondering, Did Victorino really make a big difference for the Red Sox in 2013, when they won the World Series?
 
 
That was his first season with the Red Sox, and he did play well in his 122 regular-season games. But the Sox finished five games ahead of the second-place Rays, so it's hard to argue that Victorino made a big difference there. The Sox did finish just one game ahead of the A's for purposes of postseason seeding, which meant the Sox matched up against the wild-card Rays instead of the Central-winning Tigers. Which might have helped.
 

 


 

 
But it's largely for the postseason that Victorino is remembered. After all, he delivered (it's said) the series-clinching hit in the Division Series ... and the League Championship Series ... and the World Series. Which was unprecedented, and might not be duplicated for a long, long while.
 
 
In that Division Series, the Red Sox outscored the Rays 22-6 in the first two games, lost a nail-biting Game 3, and won a nail-biting Game 4 to clinch. It's a bit of a stretch to describe Victorino's Game 4 hit as a "clincher" -- which it has been, today -- because while his seventh-inning single did give the Sox a 2-1 lead, they wound up winning 3-1. He did reach base 10 times in the series: 6 singles, 4 (!) HBP.
 
 
In the ALCS against the Tigers, on the other hand, he reached only five times in six games: 3 hits, 2 HBP. But one of those hits was a grand slam in Game 6 that turned a 2-1 deficit into 5-2 lead. Gotta rank among the 10 biggest hits in Red Sox history, yeah? At least since World War II?
 
 
In the interest of precision, I'll mention that the Red Sox had at least a 50/50 chance of winning Game 6 before Victorino stepped to the plate -- they had the bases loaded with just one out -- and of course even if they'd lost that one, they would've had Game 7 at home the next night. Granted, Justin Verlander would have been a tough assignment.
 
 
Finally, while Victorino's bases-clearing double did give the Red Sox a 3-0 lead in Game 6 against the Cardinals in the World Series, the Sox wound up winning the game 6-1. And that double was one of Victorino's two hits in the whole series. Aside from that hit, anyone else would likely have done better.
 
 
So would the Red Sox have won yet another championship 2013 without him?
 
 
Of course it's impossible to know. We could say roughly the same things about at least a dozen members of that team. Everybody gets a ring, and some of the credit.
 
 
A more interesting question for Cherington, I think, is this: Knowing what you know now, would you have signed Shane Victorino for three years and $39 million?
 
 
And if he's being honest, I think answer is probably no.
 
http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/just-a-bit-outside/baseball-joe/blog/oh-and-about-victorino-s-contract-072715
By Rob Neyer
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
10,551
Going back and saying those game winning hits, and Victorino's season long base running and RF defense, somehow didn't make that much of a difference, is one of those statements that doesn't pass the smell test.  Sorry, Rob Neyer, you get an F when it comes to showing your work to any degree of credibility. 
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Staff member
Dope
I'm surprised Neyer doesn't mention Vic's epic defense in 2013. It's easy to dismiss his single-season UZR as an SSS outlier, but having watched most of those games, I'm not at all convinced Vic wasn't worth 5-6 wins over whoever the Sox might have thrown out there in his stead.

(Edit: 6.0 fWAR in 2013, with close to half of that due to D.)
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
12,643
Maine
lexrageorge said:
Going back and saying those game winning hits, and Victorino's season long base running and RF defense, somehow didn't make that much of a difference, is one of those statements that doesn't pass the smell test.  Sorry, Rob Neyer, you get an F when it comes to showing your work to any degree of credibility. 
 
I tweeted this at Neyer, but I'll repeat here. Victorino accumulated 7.5 bWAR/6.2 fWAR with the Red Sox.  If you conservatively figure $6M/win, that's pretty much a wash on the contract.  Add the ring in, I don't think it's a regrettable deal in the least.
 

Hee Sox Choi

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 27, 2006
5,946
P'tucket said:
I'm torn. I loves me some Shane and would love to see him win some more jewelry, except his manager is a doosh canoe.
Angels win it all, Scioscia dies of a heart attack on the celebration pile.
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
SoSH Member
Jul 17, 2005
3,289
Somerville, MA
Pablo Sandoval is has been awful and has only gotten worse as the season has gone one.  Maybe Rutledge frees them up to make Holt the everday 3B and to dump Sandoval for whatever they can get.  Over his last 220 PA, since May 12, Sandoval is hitting .233/.264/.324 not including 0-2 so far tonight.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

Member
SoSH Member
May 11, 2011
9,294
NH
Rudy Pemberton said:
He reminds me of Brett Lillibridge. Return is of little importance, though. It creates playing time for Castillo and JBJ to see if they can be part of the next great, or even good, Red Sox team.

Ultimately, it's pretty great that Victorino had the great season for the Sox when he did. Hopefully he rejubilates his career in LA.
 
Sorry Rudy... but, really?
 

RoDaddy

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jun 19, 2002
2,467
Albany area, NY
There were so many great things to remember about Vic in 2013 - the hitting, the gold glove, the intensity (remember him pounding his chest when he hit the grand slam vs. detroit and then again when he cleared the bases against the cards in game 6?) and even the talk shows after the series where he came across as so personable. My favorite memory though is how he adapted to hitting against right handed pitchers IMMEDIATELY after abandoning switch hitting, with a tremendous power surge during August plus the two big hits in the playoffs against tough right handers. To me, that was yet another amazing and improbable part of that miracle season.
 

jmcc5400

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2000
2,614
Neyer is wrong. I grew up watching Dwight Evans patrol right field. He was great. In 2013, Shane Victorino was better.
 

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
32,486
Haiku
WIKTOR!


 
mauidano said:
This is not a happy day for Mauidano.  My favorite team traded my favorite player/friend.  Happy for Shane that he gets a chance to go to the playoffs.
Three little birds
Gone from my doorstep
Gone are sweet songs
Of melodies pure and true,
Singin', "deadline deals leave us all blu-u-ue" 
 
maufman said:
I'm surprised Neyer doesn't mention Vic's epic defense in 2013. It's easy to dismiss his single-season UZR as an SSS outlier, but having watched most of those games, I'm not at all convinced Vic wasn't worth 5-6 wins over whoever the Sox might have thrown out there in his stead.

(Edit: 6.0 fWAR in 2013, with close to half of that due to D.)
jmcc5400 said:
Neyer is wrong. I grew up watching Dwight Evans patrol right field. He was great. In 2013, Shane Victorino was better.
Truly. Victorino's 2013 spring in Fenway's RF was a half-season for the ages. Game after game he turned in memorable catches and spectacular throws. Then he hurt his back, his hamstring and his noggin, and barely made it back for the playoffs, where he turned back into gold.
 

MuzzyField

Member
SoSH Member
Shane was fantastic, but did miss 40 games and was replacing the stellar defense of Cody Ross.

I just can't make the Dewey leap, even for a season.

Every play is now on TV in HD, how much awesome Dewey in RF is lost?

You either attended every game, watched 5 camera shitty antenna SD TV or heard it described on the radio, albeit mostly exceptionally by Ned and Ken!
 

nattysez

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2010
4,696
Victorino apparently just had a very emotional press conference with the Boston media, repeatedly breaking down in tears when talking about his time with the Sox.
 

Hank Scorpio

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,558
nattysez said:
Victorino apparently just had a very emotional press conference with the Boston media, repeatedly breaking down in tears when talking about his time with the Sox.
 
It's on NESN right now. Hard to watch, he's sobbing.
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
5,721
Northern Colorado
I was a big fan of Rutledge when he played for the Rockies. He has a good bat, but his defense leaves something to be desired.

I wanted him to win the 2nd base job over dj lemahieu, but dj narrowly won and was an all star this year. This is a good get for victorino at this point.

Thanks for 2013 victorino
 

garlan5

Member
SoSH Member
May 13, 2009
2,673
Virginia
Andrew said:
 
I mean, he was the most "pitchable" hitter in the Red Sox line up.
I'll say it, what a shitty article. Its even shittier to post it now. He was a great right fielder and had one of the most memorable post season at bats. The guy was money during the season in the field and at bat. Then struggled to hit during the post season but somehow delivered two epic at bats... Yeah shit on him that makes sense. Sorry I'm drunk and sad to see him go. Even though I understand he had to go.

Edit, I meant to quote the article
 

Andrew

broke his neck in costa rica
SoSH Member
Jan 20, 2006
12,013
Western Massachusetts
garlan5 said:
I'll say it, what a shitty article. Its even shittier to post it now. He was a great right fielder and had one of the most memorable post season at bats. The guy was money during the season in the field and at bat. Then struggled to hit during the post season but somehow delivered two epic at bats... Yeah shit on him that makes sense. Sorry I'm drunk and sad to see him go. Even though I understand he had to go.
 
 
I agree, I was just referencing what the Detroit announcer said after he hit the grand slam.
 

gtg807y

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 31, 2006
2,901
Atlanta, GA
lexrageorge said:
Going back and saying those game winning hits, and Victorino's season long base running and RF defense, somehow didn't make that much of a difference, is one of those statements that doesn't pass the smell test.  Sorry, Rob Neyer, you get an F when it comes to showing your work to any degree of credibility. 
 
Articles like that are why I don't really bother to read Neyer all that often any more.  It's negativity but with no apparent intelligent point behind it.  "Well sure he had some big hits that postseason but really... if someone else had been at bat they could have hit them too... or the Sox may have won anyway."  Your punchbowl of Victorino memories appears to be turd-free, Rob's here to fix that.
 

yecul

appreciates irony very much
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 8, 2001
16,738
Freeing up the roster spot was a win from this move regardless of return, which itself has some hope for being a value-add. I think this was a smart move.
 

ShaneTrot

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2002
5,254
Overland Park, KS
That Neyer article wreaks of trying way too hard to be the smartest guy in the room. Shane's WAR in 2013 was 6.1 only Pedroia was better. He was a vital cog in a championship winning team. Who knows what happens with him? He should next write articles about how the Royals will be better without Alex Gordon, or Napoleon's invasion of Russia was based on sound strategic thinking.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
yecul said:
Freeing up the roster spot was a win from this move regardless of return, which itself has some hope for being a value-add. I think this was a smart move.
But for another $1.1M they could have simply released Victorino if the roster spot was at such a premium.

The real question is whether Rutledge made more sense than a different kind of prospect (one who pitches, for example). Obviously we don't know who was available, or who might have been had the Sox picked up the entire salary.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
dynomite said:
But for another $1.1M they could have simply released Victorino if the roster spot was at such a premium.

The real question is whether Rutledge made more sense than a different kind of prospect (one who pitches, for example). Obviously we don't know who was available, or who might have been had the Sox picked up the entire salary.
 
Rutledge makes Marrero 100% expendable as part of a trade package.
 
The FO seems clearly committing to XB as the team's starting SS here, which IMO is a good decision. His defense has come around in leaps and bounds this season, likely a reflection of what must have been a metric shit-ton of fielding work put in with Butterfield over the past offseason and throughout 2015.
 
Hopefully, if that is the case, it also means the FO has decided Marrero has more value to the team as a trade chip than as a utility infielder, because IMO that would also be a good decision.
 

jscola85

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
1,305
Buzzkill Pauley said:
 
Rutledge makes Marrero 100% expendable as part of a trade package.
 
The FO seems clearly committing to XB as the team's starting SS here, which IMO is a good decision. His defense has come around in leaps and bounds this season, likely a reflection of what must have been a metric shit-ton of fielding work put in with Butterfield over the past offseason and throughout 2015.
 
Hopefully, if that is the case, it also means the FO has decided Marrero has more value to the team as a trade chip than as a utility infielder, because IMO that would also be a good decision.
 
How much trade value does Marrero realistically have?  He turns 25 in August and his OPS in AAA the last ~400 plate appearances is about .600.  I know he has a great glove but I doubt teams will be offering much for him, if anything of substance other than as a throw-in to a bigger deal.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 30, 2006
10,569
jscola85 said:
 
How much trade value does Marrero realistically have?  He turns 25 in August and his OPS in AAA the last ~400 plate appearances is about .600.  I know he has a great glove but I doubt teams will be offering much for him, if anything of substance other than as a throw-in to a bigger deal.
 
Not much value, true. But that's the point.
 
As a throw-in to a bigger deal, perhaps Marrero keeps the FO from having to add a chip that could actually be useful to the next good/great Red Sox team.  It'd be especially nice if him being around should keep the FO from throwing in a decent-ceiling live arm in A-ball (like Hunter Strickland or Frank Montas) to pad out a more significant deal.
 

Paradigm

juju all over his tits
SoSH Member
Dec 5, 2003
5,954
Touche?
This is also about the ascendance and importance of Brock Holt.
 
Holt gets starter-quantity AB's. He's the first fill-in at nearly every position on the diamond, and when you stick him in the lineup, he performs. He had 492 PA's last year and is on pace for something around that this year. He's more of a starter than a utility guy who plays once or twice a week.
 
Welcome Josh Rutledge, our new long-term utility infielder.