More on his struggles here: https://www.nba.com/celtics/news/sidebar/post-050221-fourniers-finding-groove-while-battling-lingering-covid-19-symptoms
HE WAS PLAYING BECAUSE WE NEED HIM READY FOR THE PLAYOFFS!!WHY WAS HE PLAYING
100% agree.BS. there is plenty of time to "GET HIM READY FOR THE PLAYOFFS".
Thats weak sauce from a smart group.
If he can still go 10/11 or whatever with all those symptoms they should play him as much as he can go, no? Relatedly, this is maybe a very dumb question with an obvious answer but is it clear that 30 minutes is worse for his symptoms than 20 minutes? Like, what is the best way to ramp someone back up after COVID?OK, we're back to not counting defense. The poor guy has been a turnstile (he's a much better defender than he has shown these 6 games)
No one is questioning if he's checking with the training staff. It's the decision to run him out there for 30+ mpg when he has blurry vision, bright light sensitivity, focus/depth perception issues, and concussion symptoms. Not a fan of how they are handling him.
20mpg would get him familiar enough until he is symptom-free. The extra 10+ minutes between him and Nesmith isn't worth it
sure 10, 15, 20 whatever you like to get him familiar/ramp-upIf he can still go 10/11 or whatever with all those symptoms they should play him as much as he can go, no? Relatedly, this is maybe a very dumb question with an obvious answer but is it clear that 30 minutes is worse for his symptoms than 20 minutes? Like, what is the best way to ramp someone back up after COVID?
Nobody is sure of anything when it comes to COVID, totally agree. Plus team and training staff have done an exceptional job when it comes to the prevention/handling of COVID compared to other NBA clubs. Does anyone have the inhaler handy for our franchise player?There are 2 weeks and 7 games left in the regular season. Fournier has only played 10 games with the team. How is it weak sauce to suggest that maybe they're doing this to maximize his reps with the team before the playoffs? From both a chemistry standpoint, and a pure conditioning one.
This isn't an actual concussion, while the symptoms sound terrible, as others have said, he wouldn't be out there if the medical staff thought it'd be doing more harm. If these are symptoms are somehow related to conditioning, then how do we know trying to play through it isn't the right treatment?
My standard reply to the yield to authority thought process:I think to me it is simple...
In a complicated recovery situation I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the professionals who have shown no reason to doubt their ability/interest in doing what is best for the player and team's long term outlook.
I haven't seen a good argument from anyone in this thread for why Fournier shouldn't have been playing beyond "it might have given them slightly better play for his minutes in 2-3 games". I don't care about 10-20 slightly better (but not necessarily) minutes in a few games, and I don't think the Celtics do either, they care about following the process they lay out with the player, coach, medical and training staff that they think will help get Fournier back from COVID in the best way possible going into the more important games.
I don't think it's "rationalizing" anything to say.... "I don't assume I know better than a whole bunch of people who have been getting paid for a long time because they are elite at this" on this issue. There are areas I have no issue judging on, things like strategy choice, etc. I just think the knee jerk "oh they're screwing up by having Fournier play so many minutes in building back up from COVID" is something that:
1. I don't think I have the information or skills to determine
2. I don't think any of the people in this thread have any idea on either. I trust this no more than I trust when someone is a thread tells me what injury they think a player had (unless of course it's one of the doctors on the board).
I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think it's a particularly compelling argument. I don't think there is any question that they cared more about getting him time on the court and I think it's the right move.My standard reply to the yield to authority thought process:
I've known people/organizations, 100X smarter than basketball coaches, who have made incredibly stupid decisions.
I have zero issues with @bakahump or anybody questioning Brad or the Celtics especially after EF's ongoing health issues came out.
Thanks for posting. Always thought if I were a reporter, I'd ask something more than, "How do you feel" or "What are you feeling" but I guess I'd never get a story printed.
He's an even better fit than I expected, and I'm not sure we've seen him at 100 percent yet.Really, really want Fournier to re-sign. His skillset fixes so many of the issues that the offense has had since Hayward left (first due to injury in the playoffs and then in FA).
I like what I’ve seen from him offensively and agree it’s unlikely we’ve seen his best ( at least on any sustained level) but I’m worried about the D. He seems slow footed on his man and in rotations in a way that doesn’t look effort related...but the eyes can be fooled for a player getting his wind back and likely learning the DHe's an even better fit than I expected, and I'm not sure we've seen him at 100 percent yet.
My impression so far (and from when he was with Orlando) is that he'll be a negative, but not a huge one.I like what I’ve seen from him offensively and agree it’s unlikely we’ve seen his best ( at least on any sustained level) but I’m worried about the D. He seems slow footed on his man and in rotations in a way that doesn’t look effort related...but the eyes can be fooled for a player getting his wind back and likely learning the D
Except this involves more than the coach, or the Celtics organization. Unless you think that Fournier has no agents, friends, doctors or family. What do we actually know? We actually know he was playing. And we know what his symptoms were. So I think we can assume that none of those people (or anyone else) said, "playing will be physically bad for him." (make him sicker; delay his full recovery, etc.) They might have said, "Brad, he's gonna suck at basketball, but it MIGHT help his medical condition improve, and we dont think it will make his medical condition worse." If you dont think that trade-off is worth it, that's fair. But your underlying assumption goes far beyond pushing back at "yield to authority."My standard reply to the yield to authority thought process:
I've known people/organizations, 100X smarter than basketball coaches, who have made incredibly stupid decisions.
I have zero issues with @bakahump or anybody questioning Brad or the Celtics especially after EF's ongoing health issues came out.
The T-shirt under the jersey adds to the middle-aged-man-at-the-Y effect.My impression so far (and from when he was with Orlando) is that he'll be a negative, but not a huge one.
I think his perceived slow-footedness has more to do with the way he moves; it's a bit old-man-ish. He's not uber-quick, but doesn't seem like a turnstile
35mpg (OKC) to a more deliberate 20mpg (Spurs) the first 2 weeks back is what I wanted. Usage scaled up as his rubber legs returned. So I'm questioning Brad's use of him when he couldn't play defense/shoot and had health issues that were not yet made public. I'm probably guilty of hand-wringing over a player I like and can play a big part in the playoffs. Fournier's post-COVID effects sound like something neurological, and I'm always going to side on nurture over nature in that situation.Except this involves more than the coach, or the Celtics organization. Unless you think that Fournier has no agents, friends, doctors or family. What do we actually know? We actually know he was playing. And we know what his symptoms were. So I think we can assume that none of those people (or anyone else) said, "playing will be physically bad for him." (make him sicker; delay his full recovery, etc.) They might have said, "Brad, he's gonna suck at basketball, but it MIGHT help his medical condition improve, and we dont think it will make his medical condition worse." If you dont think that trade-off is worth it, that's fair. But your underlying assumption goes far beyond pushing back at "yield to authority."
Yea, you have been advocating for an off-ball shooter for a while and we all can see the benefit to the team/Jays. Plus EF's defense will be much improved with health. It's a shame Danny couldn't unload Kemba last summer and retain Hayward, I'm sure he tried.Really, really want Fournier to re-sign. His skillset fixes so many of the issues that the offense has had since Hayward left (first due to injury in the playoffs and then in FA).
I don't think EF being a better fit than Kemba and Smart is a super-hot take. The thing is though, if you're going to get rid of the latter two, you need to find a way to put some real production there. Maybe Smart's value is high enough still that this is doable.35mpg (OKC) to a more deliberate 20mpg (Spurs) the first 2 weeks back is what I wanted. Usage scaled up as his rubber legs returned. So I'm questioning Brad's use of him when he couldn't play defense/shoot and had health issues that were not yet made public. I'm probably guilty of hand-wringing over a player I like and can play a big part in the playoffs. Fournier's post-COVID effects sound like something neurological, and I'm always going to side on nurture over nature in that situation.
My Brad/team pushback isn't that strong...I've had much stronger takes
Yea, you have been advocating for an off-ball shooter for a while and we all can see the benefit to the team/Jays. Plus EF's defense will be much improved with health. It's a shame Danny couldn't unload Kemba last summer and retain Hayward, I'm sure he tried.
This may freak some out but I could see EF's fit being better w/JayRob than Kemba and Smart in the years to come.
As a 1 or 2 scoring option Kemba will put up POINTZ!, so he may get them something small in return (esp with no FAs available).I don't think EF being a better fit than Kemba and Smart is a super-hot take. The thing is though, if you're going to get rid of the latter two, you need to find a way to put some real production there. Maybe Smart's value is high enough still that this is doable.
Also, you're not gonna like it, but I think there's a good chance Kemba is back next year. If there's no impact guy on the trade market, they're probably a better regular season team if they keep his offense, and it's wayyyy easier to dump his contract when it has one year left.
Remember, against OKC, they didn't have JT, TL, or KW. I'm sure Brad wasn't planning on playing NG 35 minutes against OKC, but he looks down the bench and tries to find a scorer, he probably thought he had no other choice (remember, this was pre-metamorphisized Nesmith) if he wanted to win. Particularly when Marcus misses his first nine 3Ps.35mpg (OKC) to a more deliberate 20mpg (Spurs) the first 2 weeks back is what I wanted. Usage scaled up as his rubber legs returned. So I'm questioning Brad's use of him when he couldn't play defense/shoot and had health issues that were not yet made public. I'm probably guilty of hand-wringing over a player I like and can play a big part in the playoffs. Fournier's post-COVID effects sound like something neurological, and I'm always going to side on nurture over nature in that situation.
Yeah, I don't love having our own version of Norman Powell on our team. But I'm willing to overlook it if he gels.The T-shirt under the jersey adds to the middle-aged-man-at-the-Y effect.
Agreed it was a clusterfuck and the EF 35mins was one of them.Remember, against OKC, they didn't have JT, TL, or KW. I'm sure Brad wasn't planning on playing NG 35 minutes against OKC, but he looks down the bench and tries to find a scorer, he probably thought he had no other choice (remember, this was pre-metamorphisized Nesmith) if he wanted to win. Particularly when Marcus misses his first nine 3Ps.
OKC was a clusterbomb in any number of ways.
I don't remember the OKC game all that well and I'm not going back to watch it. I do remember the breakaway dunk EF missed. At the time, we all attributed it to lack of legs - i.e., lack of game time.The C's gave up 41 4th quarter points because the poor guy (EF) could barely stand.
In this shitshow of a season, there have been some positives: Tatum and Brown, Pritchard, Nesmith's emergence, Time Lord (on those rare occasions that he's healthy), and Fournier's offense.EF starting to look like a significant asset. Perhaps Danny and CBS had this under control all along
In the 5 games he’s been back in the starting lineup we’ve given up 70+ first half points in 3 of them. This passes my eye test. He defends as if it’s a 11am shoot around. I do agree he’s the shooter we’ve been lacking but paired with Kemba in the backcourt it’s no wonder why teams can get clean 3-point looks whenever they want.EF starting to look like a significant asset. Perhaps Danny and CBS had this under control all along
What's the excuse the rest of the year when Kemba and or EF weren't playing? 3 point d has been horrid all season.In the 5 games he’s been back in the starting lineup we’ve given up 70+ first half points in 3 of them. This passes my eye test. He defends as if it’s a 11am shoot around. I do agree he’s the shooter we’ve been lacking but paired with Kemba in the backcourt it’s no wonder why teams can get clean 3-point looks whenever they want.
It’s actually been pretty much league average for the year. Opp shooting 37.4% vs league of 36.7%.What's the excuse the rest of the year when Kemba and or EF weren't playing? 3 point d has been horrid all season.
I'd say EF still has rubbery legs (post-COVID), a hair slow on defending dribble drives. Kemba is a bigger problem defensively. Whenever Miami needed a quality possession in the halfcourt they (Butler/Ariza) posted Kemba, when the C's doubled it was kicked and an open step-in 3 was easily had. As we know that's a very efficient shot.In the 5 games he’s been back in the starting lineup we’ve given up 70+ first half points in 3 of them. This passes my eye test. He defends as if it’s a 11am shoot around. I do agree he’s the shooter we’ve been lacking but paired with Kemba in the backcourt it’s no wonder why teams can get clean 3-point looks whenever they want.
I won’t argue about Kemba being a problem especially in the playoffs but those slow legs EF has shown here are the same slow legs he’s shown for years in Orlando. Now, put them together and you aren’t even competitive on that end of the floor. If we manage to escape the play-in game this will be a problem in a longer series.I'd say EF still has rubbery legs (post-COVID), a hair slow on defending dribble drives. Kemba is a bigger problem defensively.
I'm pretty sure the Celtics problems will be short-lived in the playoffsI won’t argue about Kemba being a problem especially in the playoffs but those slow legs EF has shown here are the same slow legs he’s shown for years in Orlando. Now, put them together and you aren’t even competitive on that end of the floor. If we manage to escape the play-in game this will be a problem in a longer series.
Next weeks interview:I'm pretty sure the Celtics problems will be short-lived in the playoffs
For our opponents as well.Once Fournier got healthy enough to not suck, the offensive chemistry between he and Walker became obvious.
I lol'd. Fournier really seems to struggle keeping his man in front of him. Doesn't look like a lack of effort, just looks like he's pretty slow laterally.For our opponents as well.