Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

ElUno20 · Apr 17, 2011

Berto has had the same two problems for 5 years. (1) Extremely sloppy. Despite his fast hands and (before this fight) combination punching, he is very sloppy. Tons of misses, tie ups, and not hitting guys flush. (2) he has HORRIBLE conditioning. Look at his legs vs. his upper body. He is carved from stone from the waist up yet you'd need a telescope and a map to find any definition in his legs. He's always tired in fights. Up until now though, he has been able to finish guys off with his power.

Very happy for Ortiz to redeem himself. He's also very well coached by Oscar. Other than trying to look exactly like him, he came across very professional and composed after the fight.

Marciano490 · Apr 17, 2011

As impressive as Ortiz was, I think he's a dream fight for Pacquiao - comes straight ahead with no jab, fairly poor lateral movement, there to be hit and overally aggressive. He's probably a little to wild and open to have much luck against PBF either, but being the third best fighter in that division is no cause for shame.

Statman · Apr 18, 2011

Fantastic fight between Berton and Ortiz. Glad Ortiz finally won because it finally derailed the Berto hype train. I can't believe people were calling for Pacman to fight Berto.

Here are my issues with Berto:

1) Berto can't draw for shit yet his supporters made him sound like the second of Marvin Hagler. He has been on HBO at least 11 times and has faced only two credible opponents in those 11 appearances. He has had more showings than Erik Morales had in his career and guess what? The guy still can't seem to get a following.

2) He is accustomed to fighting club fighters that he can beat solely using his speed, power and athleticism.

Berto has never had to develop any actual boxing skills. The two times he has faced a challenge was against Collazo and Ortiz he struggled immensely against those two.

3) He complains about everything. Berto along with Kermit Cintron are gigantic pussies that shouldn't be boxing if they're going to be complaining about everything they deserve.

4) Berto held a ton during the Ortiz fight and never got one warning from the ref. He also constantly turned away from punches and bent down so awkwardly that he deserved to be hit behind the head. Hell, during the Quintana fight, Quintana knocked him down on the inside early in their fight and Berto complained of a rabbit punch.

Time to go back to fighting club fighters Berto.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Apr 20, 2011

Statman said:
Fantastic fight between Berton and Ortiz. Glad Ortiz finally won because it finally derailed the Berto hype train. I can't believe people were calling for Pacman to fight Berto.

Here are my issues with Berto:

1) Berto can't draw for shit yet his supporters made him sound like the second of Marvin Hagler. He has been on HBO at least 11 times and has faced only two credible opponents in those 11 appearances. He has had more showings than Erik Morales had in his career and guess what? The guy still can't seem to get a following.

2) He is accustomed to fighting club fighters that he can beat solely using his speed, power and athleticism.

Berto has never had to develop any actual boxing skills. The two times he has faced a challenge was against Collazo and Ortiz he struggled immensely against those two.

3) He complains about everything. Berto along with Kermit Cintron are gigantic pussies that shouldn't be boxing if they're going to be complaining about everything they deserve.

4) Berto held a ton during the Ortiz fight and never got one warning from the ref. He also constantly turned away from punches and bent down so awkwardly that he deserved to be hit behind the head. Hell, during the Quintana fight, Quintana knocked him down on the inside early in their fight and Berto complained of a rabbit punch.

Time to go back to fighting club fighters Berto.

I finally got around to watching this fight. What a thriller. Most exciting fight so far this year, I think.

I agree on Berto, though. I was glad to see him exposed. He has one weapon, speed, which is the best weapon to have in boxing. But you gotta have at least something else and he doesn't really seem to. Well, except the heart which he showed in this fight, which was impressive. I wasn't quite as ecstatic as Larry Merchant in feeling that Berto's stock rose in defeat. He answered some questions about his ability to hang in there and even stage a brief comeback against a fighter who's beating him up. But he also showed what I always suspected -- that he's simply not a very good fighter. He's an HBO creation. That's about it. I was never sure why HBO hitched its star to his wagon, and I'm even less sure now, but that's what happened.

I guess they did agood job hyping him, because the fight apparently drew 1.5 million viewers, making it HBO's highest rated fight this year and highest since Cotto-Foreman did 1.6 last June. I guess that's a sign of the times because it was just 3 1/2 years ago that the Calzaghe-Kessler fight drew what was then a record-low audience for "World Championship Boxing" -- 1.5 million viewers.

HBO's whole subscription base is declining and at this rate, it probably won't be long before we see most of our live boxing on Netflix, or some online equivalent.

Marciano490 · Apr 23, 2011

BGrif21125 said:
One thing I forgot to mention... The Berto corner was high comedy for 12 rounds straight.
"Andre... Listen to me, listen to me, listen to me, hey listen to me, listen to me"
"Andre... You're a beast"

Worth the price of admission.

So now the buzz is Mayweather-Ortiz. Makes a lot of sense. Ortiz' stock has never been higher, he brings the SoCal Latino fanbase with him, both fighters are with Golden Boy, and most importantly... Ortiz has no chance to beat Mayweather.

I think you're the most knowledgeable boxing poster on here, so I don't want to contradict you - or what I said above about Ortiz having little chance against Manny, and even less of a chance against PBF, but he is young, hungry, aggressive, and left handed, and Floyd will be coming off a long and tumultuous layoff. Stranger things have happened.

Marciano490 · Apr 24, 2011

BGrif21125 said:
Stranger things have definitely happened, and this is shaping up as a year of upsets. I just cant get past the theory I've always had, which is that the only way to beat Floyd is to have a long reach and a stiff jab. Ortiz has neither. (I could see Pacquiao breaking this rule against Floyd, but Manny is a freak of nature. Ortiz isn't.)

Ortiz fought with a ton of heart and it was a great fight, but part of it wasn't about Ortiz, it was about Berto being exposed as a bit of a fraud.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, but I'm starting to think that of all the young 140-147s (Khan, Bradley, Alexander, Berto, Ortiz, Maidana, etc.) there isn't a single A-level fighter in the bunch.

I still think Floyd and Manny can't be seriously challenged (let alone beaten) by anyone below 160, so any proposed fight for either guy (besides them fighting each other) draws a yawn from me.

PS. Clarification to my last point... I'd be OK with Pac-Marquez III.

Great point about Ortiz' non-existent jab; I think Oscar beats Mayweather if he kept his jab going through the later rounds (well, I had DLH winning anyways, but that's a different story). I have a somewhat different take on the young 40s-47s. I think to be a great fighter, you have to have no weaknesses. You have to be able to flurry and bang, fight on the inside and the outside, hit hard, and take a hard punch. If your division is weak, you can hide certain fatal flaws, like Tyson did for awhile, but in a tough division like the 140s and 147s are now, where you'll be up against other talented fighters with different strengths who will force you out of your comfort zone, any weaknesses will be exposed.

I think you can see my point looking at the Ali-Foreman-Frazier years. I'd say all three men were A-level fighters, but Frazier was short, didn't have a tremendous jab, and would always lose to Foreman. Foreman was big and strong, but his wind failed him in Kinsasha. Ali was obviously great, but i think if he had a little more power he wins all three fights against Frazier, instead of more or less splitting the trilogy. However, put any of those men in the 80s in their primes, and they never lose.

Similarly, I think guys like Khan and Ortiz could be long-term champions if they fought at a different time in weaker divisions. You see flawed fighters like RJJ - still an all-time great - have decade-long reigns until they run into someone who is able to expose their weaknesses. The real problem for the fighters you listed is not necessarily that they're all flawed - because every boxer is - but that they're in a division with so many other fighters capable of exposing those flaws. Whether they're A-list fighters nonetheless has yet to be determined.

ElUno20 · May 11, 2011

Anyone who wants a laugh head over to hbo's site and check out the Hopkins pascal face off.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · May 15, 2011

Donovan McNabb tells Bernard Hopkins to fuck off.

Hopkins has been riding McNabb for years, apparently.

SumnerH · May 18, 2011

Marquez, Pacquiao may have third fight

It looks like Juan Manuel Marquez will get his long-awaited third fight with pound-for-pound king Manny Pacquiao.

Top Rank promoter Bob Arum told ESPN.com that he made a deal with Marquez on Tuesday in Los Angeles for the lightweight champion to move up in weight to challenge Pacquiao for his welterweight title on Nov. 12.

Infield Infidel · May 19, 2011

SumnerH said:
Marquez, Pacquiao may have third fight

One proviso though

With the Pacquiao fight on the line, Arum said Marquez plans to take a tune-up against faded former lightweight titlist David Diaz (36-3-1, 17 KOs) on July 2 in Mexico City. Diaz lost his title to Pacquiao via a lopsided ninth-round knockout in 2008.

Marquez's own promotional company will put the card on, although Arum said Top Rank would help if needed. Arum said Marquez's deal for the Pacquiao bout permitted him an interim fight as long as it takes place by July 17.

"He's going to do that fight, and if he loses, he's out," Arum said.

PayrodsFirstClutchHit · May 22, 2011

And Bernard Hopkins wins the title at 46.

Oldest fighter to win a belt.

ElUno20 · May 22, 2011

Bhop put on an entertaining fight last night. And he took some serious shots from Pascal. Amazing he's 46 and can get in the ring with a 26 year old fighter and hold his own. I know Dawson will be favored but he's too passive and soft. I see Bhop dominating him the way he did pavlik.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · May 26, 2011

HBO is doing another "Face Off" feature for the Klitschko-Haye fight. Here's a little preview:

ElUno20 · Jun 7, 2011

Huge fight for boxing. Ortiz is a young lion who won't back down and isn't in it just for the money. Props to Floyd. I can't effin wait for this fight.

Statman · Jun 7, 2011

ElUno20 said:
Huge fight for boxing. Ortiz is a young lion who won't back down and isn't in it just for the money. Props to Floyd. I can't effin wait for this fight.

This should be a really good fight.

Between this fight and the upcoming Froch/Ward, Wlad/Haye and Khan/Judah fights, boxing is looking good this year!

ElUno20 · Jun 7, 2011

Definitely.

Anyone catch khan's quote this weekend? " I'm the best fighter he's ever been in with "

ElUno20 · Jun 7, 2011

Early reports are Floyd is getting 30-40 million before ppv buys. Crazy. He's on hiatus after that. That's insane cashe.

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket · Jun 8, 2011

BGrif21125 said:
I have a hard time getting too excited about any Floyd or Manny fight that prolongs them avoiding each other, but I guess we could do worse than Ortiz. At the very least, there's the potential he could rise to the occasion and surprise everyone. He's not an old over the hill fighter where we already know exactly what we're getting. I don't see it happening though, I think Floyd handles him fairly easily.

It's impressive that Floyd can get a mega payday against an opponent with 1 notable win, which occurred against an opponent with 0 notable wins.

Yeah, I like Ortiz and despite his odd performance against Maidana, he's proven himself an exciting young fighter. But he's just not in Floyd's league yet and probably never will be. At least not until Floyd starts to regress. Who knows? Floyd's been out so long maybe he has lost a step. But I'll believe that when I see it.

This would be an interesting "World Championship Boxing" fight. But a PPV? No thanks.

ElUno20 · Jun 9, 2011

Manny has been fighting zombies for almost 4 straight years. I'll take this in a heartbeat.

SeoulSoxFan · Jun 9, 2011

Ortiz highlights:

Infield Infidel · Jun 9, 2011

Grif, don't take the bait. Instead of re-hashing the old arguments, can we please look forward?

In actual news, Freddie Roach thinks Mayweather is using Ortiz to prep for Pacquiao

"Of course, that's the first thing that came to my mind," Roach said.
Ortiz and Pacquiao are both fast, high-volume punchers who tend to press the action. They are also southpaws, and Mayweather — who will be ending a 16-month layoff when he steps into the ring on Sept. 17 — has rarely fought left-handed opponents during his undefeated career.
The few he has fought, Zab Judah to name one, have cause him some problems.
"I'm just figuring he'll give us a good blueprint to fight him, how Floyd handles fighting a southpaw," Roach said of Ortiz, who won the WBC 147-pound (67-kilogram) title with a narrow unanimous decision over Andre Berto in April, a certain candidate for Fight of the Year.
"Some left-handers have given him trouble," Roach said. "Judah gave him trouble but couldn't maintain the pace. Guys like Victor Ortiz, Manny Pacquiao, they can maintain that pace. And I do think the southpaw stance gives him trouble."

guarded optimism here

ElUno20 · Jun 11, 2011

BGrif21125 said:
OK, but let's not use Manny's recent choice of opponents as the bar for judging Floyd. Manny's last 2 hand-picked opponents in particular have been so appalling to boxing fans that just about anyone chosen by Floyd could seem decent by comparison.

The fact is Floyd went into a cave for 12 months after beating Mosley, when he could have been trying to make the 1 fight everyone wants to see. And now he's reappeared to fight a guy who 6 weeks ago was an underdog against Andre Berto, and who once got his will broken by Marcos Maidana (who barely beat a wayyyyyyyyy past his prime Erik Morales).

I mean, I'd rather see Floyd in the ring fighting guys like Ortiz than just sitting home all day making a fool of himself on twitter, but I don't think we should be applauding him for this fight either.

There's no bait being thrown. Floyd has been a pussy for sitting out this whole time but the double standard shown is a an insult. Even with everything you listed about ortiz, he is a billion times better than any opponent Manny has been in with during this 'all time great, historic' run. We have a huge difference in opinions. It sounds like you think Manny fighting complete hand picked zombies is better than Floyd sitting out and fighting no one. I'm saying the opposite. I'd rather not watch anything than Manny fight guys with less than a 0% chance of beating him. And to add to that I've had to deal with the ridiculous media hype anointing Manny as the greatest ever for fighting these bums. Yeah he's a once in a lifetime type of fighter but receiving the praise and all the accolades for fighting bums at made up division and crowning him a 1000 weight class champ is vomit inducing.

Also, produce someone else other than Ortiz that Floyd could have fought? Sergio Martinez is a middleweight, Timothy Bradley is a really good fighter but can't punch and that's the first thing everything would cry murder over. Look at the top welterweights right now, who's out there? You know they wouldn't dare put Khan in there with him at this stage of his career (even though he'd probably have a good shot with his size). That's the only other guy.

I'll ignore the fact that Ortiz fights like he's poor and is a dangerous opponent with serious power, just name me the last time Manny fought a live opponent or someone under 30? The only guys I can think of are probably Cotto who was coming off a crime scene investigation type of beating and maybe Solis back in 2007.

Both Manny and Floyd are annoying frauds, i just don't see how people will admit that Manny has been fighting hand picked zombies yet still sing his praises to the heavens as if he's beating top of the line guys and bash Floyd. At least Floyd hasn't been raping the public every 3 months with another ppv at a new weight class to go down in history as the only guy to win....puke.

shawnrbu · Jun 18, 2011

Harold Lederman doing color tonight for BAD. Has Harold done this for HBO before? I expect this to be really good.

Marciano490 · Jun 20, 2011

Did I miss a separate thread about Canelo? I was impressed. He stands right in front of his opponent, and seems like he's right there to be hit, but he holds his gloves high and has good head movement, and his defensive is actually fairly impressive. He doesn't have plus speed, but he puts his combos together beautifully - probably because he's so relaxed.

I would've liked to have seen some more aggression. He could've gotten his man out of there by the 6th round. I suppose it's good he's so composed at so young an age, but you can't teach killer instinct, and he doesn't seem to have it.

I love how in Tijuana, they use two ring girls at a time.

Also, Alvarez is a ginger with freckles.

PrestonBroadus Lives · Jun 24, 2011

Marciano490 said:
Did I miss a separate thread about Canelo? I was impressed. He stands right in front of his opponent, and seems like he's right there to be hit, but he holds his gloves high and has good head movement, and his defensive is actually fairly impressive. He doesn't have plus speed, but he puts his combos together beautifully - probably because he's so relaxed.

I would've liked to have seen some more aggression. He could've gotten his man out of there by the 6th round. I suppose it's good he's so composed at so young an age, but you can't teach killer instinct, and he doesn't seem to have it.

I love how in Tijuana, they use two ring girls at a time.

Also, Alvarez is a ginger with freckles.

Alvarez is less than a year removed from knocking out Baldomir in 6. I know, Carlos was not exactly in the prime of his career for that fight, but he's always been a tough dude with an iron chin (hadn't been knocked out or stopped in the 14 years prior to that fight). However, since that fight, Alvarez has been wearing "Winning" gloves, which are like giant pillows. Perphaps Canelo's hands are giving him some issues due to his high activity (fighting every 2-3 months since he turned pro), but I wouldn't put it past his management team and coaches to force him to wear those gloves knowing that they'll lead to less damaging blows and, in turn, more rounds under his belt against improving competition. All this is to say that I don't think killer instinct (or lack thereof) is a problem for Alvarez.

Pretty good lineup on HBO tomorrow night with Devon Alexander looking to get back in the mix at 140 against Lucas Matthysse (who is also coming off a loss from Zab Judah, a fight that I really thought could have gone either way). They'll be televising 2 of the undercard fights, including Tavaris Cloud against Yusaf Mack.

Stu Nahan · Jun 26, 2011

I thought Matthysse got ripped off tonight.

PrestonBroadus Lives · Jun 27, 2011

Stu Nahan said:
I thought Matthysse got ripped off tonight.

You want a ripoff, watch the Sturm-Macklin fight that also happened on Saturday, that was an awful decision. Alexander-Matthysse was just a close fight that really could have been scored either way. I've seen a lot of cries of robbery on this fight, but I'd really like to know which rounds from 1-6 (excluding the 4th for obvious reasons) you could definitively say that Matthysse won.

BGrif21125 said:
For me, the bottom line is that HBO has put a ton of money and effort into the 140 pound division, but the more fights I see, the more I'm convinced there isn't a single A-level fighter in the bunch. They were hoping a star would emerge, but I just don't see one. Maybe Guerrero entering the division will spice things up a bit.

Grif, this is the second time I've seen you mention this and I think you're being too hard on some of these guys (specifically Kahn, Alexander and Ortiz). I think HBO is partially at fault here for maybe expecting too much too soon from the 140s, but we need to realize that those three guys are all just 24 years old. They all have pretty awesome natural talent, and I tend to think there's plenty of time for them to turn the corner and become star level fighters.

BGrif21125 said:
I like Tavoris Cloud. He's not the most talented guy, but he makes good fights and is always agressive.

I totally agree with this, he's kind of the anti-Chad Dawson. I would prefer to see Cloud in there against BHop, at least he'd give maximum effort.

Statman · Jun 27, 2011

PrestonBroadus Lives said:
You want a ripoff, watch the Sturm-Macklin fight that also happened on Saturday, that was an awful decision. Alexander-Matthysse was just a close fight that really could have been scored either way. I've seen a lot of cries of robbery on this fight, but I'd really like to know which rounds from 1-6 (excluding the 4th for obvious reasons) you could definitively say that Matthysse won.

I believe that a close fight can constitute a robbery.

In a ten round fight, if there is one guy who clearly lost five rounds (and can't even make an argument in them) and got knocked down - he should lose. Alexander clearly lost five rounds, and he got knocked down.

Alexander won a round clearly (the 9th) and on my card got the benefit of the doubt in the four close rounds. They were the only rounds that were close. So anywhere from 99-90 Matthysse to 95-94 Matthysse can be argued depending on who you gave those close rounds.

The five I gave Matthysse can not swing in Alexander's favor. Devon lost them quite clearly. Plus the knockdown, that comes to a loss. Any other result constitutes robbery.

There's a difference between a fight being "close" in the sense that the two boxers win a similar number of rounds (as happened here), and a fight being "close" in the sense that every round itself is close.

You can have a "close fight" that's 120-108 in one guy's favor, where the winner just edges every round by the skin of his teeth. You can also have a fight where someone wins 115-113 but dominates more than half the fight (absolutely owning 7 of the rounds, and giving 5 away).

PrestonBroadus Lives · Jun 27, 2011

BGrif21125 said:
I could be wrong on Khan. I just wonder if he has the chin and stamina to hold off a real top opponent.

Ortiz certainly fought well in his last fight, but he's not at 140 anymore, so I can't count him as part of the group moving forward. He'll be at 147 from now on. And while I thought Alexander had the most potential of the bunch, he's had big problems in 3 fights in a row now, and might very well be 0-3 if not for 2 of them being in Missouri.

I just think if HBO wants to really commit financially to one division, 126 might be a far better option than 140. I think there's a better chance a top PFP guy emerges out of Gamboa, JuanMa, Garcia, etc.

Well, looks like Devon's out of that group too:

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=6709838

I agree with Alexander having had the most potential, but perhaps the weight issue is what's been keeping him from sitting down on his punches. It wasn't really that long ago that he would unleash his counters with authority. I was at the Urango fight and he threw some absolutely brutal punches that night.

I think the problem with heavily promoting the 126 group is the stigma that comes along with the term "Featherweight." I asked some of my buddies (not big fight fans) if they wanted to come by and watch the JuanMa-Salido fight, knowing that JuanMa always puts on a good show. Their responses were all pretty much the same, "I don't want to watch a couple of little guys fight." Those are just my friends, but I do think it's pretty indicative of the general public's perception on the 126 guys. There is a reason that of all the great fights to happen recently below 140 (the Morales-Barrera fights, the Morales-Pacquiao fights, the Pacquiao-JMM fights, the Vazquez-Marquez fights, etc.) did so in relative obscurity.
In terms of a money making investment, I think HBO blew it by letting all the Super Middleweight guys go to Showtime. I think they've only retained Pavlik while guys like Bute, Ward and Froch are all on the verge of stardom.

Statman, I read your post and have no problem disagreeing with someone on scorecards, that's part of the nature of boxing. But you may want to watch the fight again if you honestly think 99-90 Matthysse is a better, more accurate scorecard than 95-94 Alexander.

jose melendez · Jul 6, 2011

I thankfully didn't get to see the Wladimir/Haye fight, but it's gotten me thinking. Let's imagine that Vitali and Wlad weren't brothers and would fight? Would we regard that as a big time fight? Maybe it wouldn't be Manny vs. Mayweatherm but I kind of think we would. The two have both dominated the heavyweight division since Lennox left and basically stand alone in the division. If they weren't brothers, they'd fight, we'd get a more or less unified champion and then, at the very least, there would be the excitement of invincibility. The problem here, is that since they will never fight, we can't even pretend to know who the best in the world is.

shawnrbu · Jul 10, 2011

Back to back black eyes for boxing. How many can this sport endure?

It's too bad boxing doesn't have a Dana White (for a thousand reasons) to hand Lara the winner's share of the purse.

Statman · Jul 10, 2011

Lara was ROBBED tonight. Those judges should never judge another fight ever.

ElUno20 · Jul 10, 2011

Someone needs to step in and force Pwill not to fight Martinez. A family member, wife, etc. He's shot and Martinez might do irreparable damage.

CrouchingTonyHiddenPena · Jul 10, 2011

Statman said:
Lara was ROBBED tonight. Those judges should never judge another fight ever.

That was the most egregiously horrendous, illogical, awful decision I have seen in many, many years. Lara destroyed PW systematically, clocking him cleanly and repeatedly, beating him to a pulp with that left all night. There was no way on God's green earth I would have thought PW was even close on anyone's card, let alone all 3 people who are supposed to be better than us at measuring such.

The decision should be overturned immediately. PW got his ass whipped, and it was nowhere NEAR close.

Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

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