Sox trade Will Middlebrooks for Ryan Hanigan
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
The minute Will Middlebrooks refused to play Winter Ball you knew his Red Sox career was over. At this point he is what he is an oft injured player who regressed the last two seasons.
This trade is interesting because Hanigan is a Right Handed Hitter. You'd think the Sox would want a Lefty compliment to Vazquez. Wonder if Vazquez is in trade talks.
This trade is interesting because Hanigan is a Right Handed Hitter. You'd think the Sox would want a Lefty compliment to Vazquez. Wonder if Vazquez is in trade talks.
EACH of the past 6 seasons.foulkehampshire said:
Sheesh
Edit: If it means Jenny Dell gets to spend more time in SD, then that's good for everyone
Hanigan's a nice piece to add. Can't help but think that another team would have squeezed a low-level prospect out of SD to help offset the years-of-control discrepancy. But it's not as though WMB had much of a future with the Sox at this point.
foulkehampshire said:
He means he's never had less than 240 PA each of the last 6 seasons (263 last year).
Hanigan walks a lot but hasn't done much with the bat over the last two seasons.
2012: .274/.365/.338
2013: .198/.306/.261
2014: .218/.318/.324
Steamer projects .230/.319/.318
Anyone know a reason why he went from a pretty decent hitter between 2009 and 2012 to a pretty shitty hitter the last two years? Regardless, they could do worse for a backup catcher.
2012: .274/.365/.338
2013: .198/.306/.261
2014: .218/.318/.324
Steamer projects .230/.319/.318
Anyone know a reason why he went from a pretty decent hitter between 2009 and 2012 to a pretty shitty hitter the last two years? Regardless, they could do worse for a backup catcher.
He meant per year, even though it wasn't clear.foulkehampshire said:
This officially closes the Jenny Dell Red Sox era.
I was never convinced the Middlebrooks could hit, I'm glad they got something functional for him.
He has to average less than a win a year. He's averaged about 1.4 the past 4. All he has to do is be replacement level at the plate and be good defensively which he has pretty much done. They aren't signing him for his offense.findguapo said:
Ross made about 3.1 mill per with the Sox as a comparison.
HangingW/ScottCooper said:
He had a nice short swing that was able to generate great pull-power, could absolutely mash fastballs low-inside. Unfortunately, he didn't have the coverage or discipline to lay off of anything on the outside of the plate. Couldn't make the adjustment.
mloyko54 said:
Why is it mandatory that the backup has to be a LHH? I would think that's a nice to have, not the primary determining factor of why you sign someone. And it's ridiculous to think Vazquez is going anywhere.
Love this deal. WMB wasn't going to be on the 25-man anyway, so might as well deal him for something the team could use.
Hannigan is perfect. Aging, good K:BB rates, high OBP relative to his average. Above average on defense, but not as good as Christian. Get him with a pitcher he likes and he can be the Ross binkie for one guy. Couple that with double headers, day games following late games, etc., and he'll get enough work to keep Christian fresh.
"Anyone know a reason why he went from a pretty decent hitter between 2009 and 2012 to a pretty shitty hitter the last two years?"
Maybe simply age-related decline in skills?
Maybe simply age-related decline in skills?
This seems like the classic "good for both teams" deal. Hanigan couldn't be more exactly what the Sox need unless he were lefthanded--but his career platoon splits are modest (and last year, nonexistent) and we know Farrell doesn't really platoon his catchers anyway.
WMB's bat could easily reawaken in the lower-pressure environment of San Diego, and he'll get to hit often in Chase and Coors, both of which should suit him well. At least he'll give them decent defense. The Sandoval deal turned him into a spare part here, so this is making lemons into lemonade for the Sox.
Ben continues to run the table.
EDIT:
I think Hanigan will play more than every fifth game. Probably more like a 60/40 ratio, with Christian starting about 100-110 games and Hanigan 50-60. Hanigan's a good defensive catcher and, although his offense has declined as noted above, he's still a better hitter than Christian was last year. At 34 he's probably ready to ramp down his workload a bit from the 80-ish games he's been catching in recent years, but going all the way down to 30-40 seems like wasting an asset.
WMB's bat could easily reawaken in the lower-pressure environment of San Diego, and he'll get to hit often in Chase and Coors, both of which should suit him well. At least he'll give them decent defense. The Sandoval deal turned him into a spare part here, so this is making lemons into lemonade for the Sox.
Ben continues to run the table.
EDIT:
PaulinMyrBch said:
I think Hanigan will play more than every fifth game. Probably more like a 60/40 ratio, with Christian starting about 100-110 games and Hanigan 50-60. Hanigan's a good defensive catcher and, although his offense has declined as noted above, he's still a better hitter than Christian was last year. At 34 he's probably ready to ramp down his workload a bit from the 80-ish games he's been catching in recent years, but going all the way down to 30-40 seems like wasting an asset.
Nothing to get too excited about, but it's nice that the Red Sox have solved their backup catcher concerns. Hanigan will never hit like he did during his prime seasons with the Reds, something that Cincinnati recognized when they traded him in the first place. If he fulfills his (relatively modest) projections, he will be one of the better backup catchers in the league. That's not nothing, considering the uncertainty the Red Sox face at that position.
Given that all catchers are RH throwers, the percentage of LH hitting catchers is tiny (this old Hardball TImes article from 2009 says just over 10% of catcher PAs were taken by LHHs). Wouldn't read anything about into Hanigan's handedness about Vazquez's status.
I just came here to post this very thing. I think the Sox are okay with punting C offense as long as the defense they're getting is very, very good. Hanigan seems to fit that bill, and at least he's shown he can take a walk.grimshaw said:
Savin Hillbilly said:
I didn't add them up, but as a binkie for one pitcher, plus double headers and weird schedule issues. I expect that to be 50-60. Similar to Ross' usage when he wasn't injured.
While it's likely the Sox wanted Hanigan anyway, I wonder if this trade was the by-product of Cherington going to the Winter Meetings and doing the GM-ish equivalent of announcing to a crowded room "first bona-fide offer I get for Middlebrooks and he's yours!"
(I still don't like trading warm bodies for backup catchers, but Midddlebrooks clearly had no role here, and Hanigan represents an upgrade at the position over Ross, who i thought showed some serious decline last year.)
(I still don't like trading warm bodies for backup catchers, but Midddlebrooks clearly had no role here, and Hanigan represents an upgrade at the position over Ross, who i thought showed some serious decline last year.)
What are the odds Hanigan hits better than WMB in 2015? He was better in 2014. WMB showed no power last year, none, 2012 WMB was someone to dream on. He was one of the only good things about 2012. Too bad.
Good luck over there WMB!
I always loved your swing. Hopefully you can figure it out and have a nice and fruitful career!
I always loved your swing. Hopefully you can figure it out and have a nice and fruitful career!
It's basically a wash at the plate, as sad as it is to say. Sox got an asset at a position of need.
I'd be happy for WMB if he ran into 15-20 dingers in SD... wasn't happening here.
I'd be happy for WMB if he ran into 15-20 dingers in SD... wasn't happening here.
Perhaps a bit concerning is his sudden drop in CS%.
He had the best rate in the league in both 2012 and 2013 (48% and 45%), but then fell to 21% last season. Every other season he's been between 32 and 43%.
Wonder if they're buddies. While the Rays are blowing it up, I really hope we at least explore a trade for Cobb.
He had the best rate in the league in both 2012 and 2013 (48% and 45%), but then fell to 21% last season. Every other season he's been between 32 and 43%.
PaulinMyrBch said:
Wonder if they're buddies. While the Rays are blowing it up, I really hope we at least explore a trade for Cobb.
While not a big deal, acquiring the needed backup catcher by trade means nobody needs to be dropped from the 40-man roster. A very sensible trade for all.
Minneapolis Millers said:
I think this speaks to the value of right handed power in the current market. Middlebrooks rarely gets the bat on the ball and never walks, but when he does make contact, he can hit it a long way. That he brings back a guy like Hanigan shows us just how much teams are valuing that right now.
glennhoffmania said:
His wRC+ last year was 92 and it was 88 in 2012 (with an awful 2013 in between). There's almost no chance he returns to being the guy he was in 2010 (126 wRC+), but I think there's a pretty good chance he's not much worse than league average with the bat while providing plus defense. This is a solid return for a guy who had absolutely no place on the team and had shown no reason over the last two years for us to be optimistic about his future.
Maybe David Ross needs his own thread, but if not, Godspeed. A few big hits, sold vet presence, and one of the most likeable guys I can remember in the last few years on this team.
When JF lost faith in Salty in the 2013 playoffs, Ross was there to pick up the slack -- starting and helping win the last three games of the season which is a pretty nice luxury with a backup catcher.
When JF lost faith in Salty in the 2013 playoffs, Ross was there to pick up the slack -- starting and helping win the last three games of the season which is a pretty nice luxury with a backup catcher.
The Sox needed a backup C who can step in and be the starter if Vazquez's bat fails to meet even our very modest expectations. They were bound to overpay -- either on the trade market, or by overpaying a free agent who would otherwise sign with a team that could promise more playing time. Getting this inevitable "overpay" deal done with just a spare part like WMB was a shrewd move. No one should hold it against BC if WMB plays well enough to make this a good deal for the Padres too.
Love this deal. Middlebrooks was probably behind Sandoval, Ramirez, Bogaerts, Holt, and Cecchini on the depth chart. They basically turned a guy who was never going to contribute anything to the major league team into an asset with real value to the team this year and the future. If Swihart mashes and is ready by mid-summer, great, flip him for something else. If not (and I believe Swihart won’t be) then you have a competent backup good at framing, passable with the stick, and history of very good defense. Not to mention he’s cheaply under team control for up to 3 years. I’m not trying to overrate the move of bringing in a decent backup catcher, but little moves like this are still important. While I’m sure they would have preferred a lefty, I don’t think there was a better deal out there for the Sox than this one. I was actually really hoping they’d go after him last year instead of AJ, but the Rays got to him first.
Edit: I don't think this was an overpay at all. I actually think Hannigan is the better player in the deal. I am not high on Middlebrooks at all.
Edit: I don't think this was an overpay at all. I actually think Hannigan is the better player in the deal. I am not high on Middlebrooks at all.
His OBP looks good, but is there data that shows how much that is inflated as a result of batting 8th in a NL lineup? His offense could be worse than the numbers indicate.
Like this deal a lot.
One of the interesting things with Hanigan is his ridiculously low BABIPs vis-a-vis batted ball stats the last couple years. He has had .216 and .240 BABIPs while maintaining LD% in the 21.5 range (his GB% and FB% shifted a lot from 2013 to 2014, but that may be less relevant). Conventional wisdom would certainly see him as a great candidate to regress upward. Maybe there is something particularly funky about his approach conducive to especially weak contact, but probably not.
Edit: Looking further at this, one of the culprits is clearly that he hit a ridiculous number of IFFBs in both 2013 and 2014 (around 15%). So his hit percentage on fly balls was probably really, really low. I wonder whether that's semi-random and/or correctable.
Snodgrass'Muff said:
One of the interesting things with Hanigan is his ridiculously low BABIPs vis-a-vis batted ball stats the last couple years. He has had .216 and .240 BABIPs while maintaining LD% in the 21.5 range (his GB% and FB% shifted a lot from 2013 to 2014, but that may be less relevant). Conventional wisdom would certainly see him as a great candidate to regress upward. Maybe there is something particularly funky about his approach conducive to especially weak contact, but probably not.
Edit: Looking further at this, one of the culprits is clearly that he hit a ridiculous number of IFFBs in both 2013 and 2014 (around 15%). So his hit percentage on fly balls was probably really, really low. I wonder whether that's semi-random and/or correctable.
bellowthecat said:
I'm not high on WMB either, but you're taking back a guy who is hardly underpaid for a backup C and is certainly not likely to be more than that by 2016. If you were more confident in Vazquez, you'd find a backup C that only cost money and flip WMB for someone else's troubled former 3-4 star prospect, because the 20% chance that such a player will develop into something valuable is worth more than an above-average backup C.
I do not know where to look up pitcher times to home plate but that could have a lot to do with a drop in CS%. If the Reds focused on holding runners and the Rays didn't that could have a huge impact that has nothing to do with the catcher. Most stolen bases are on he pitcher.Hank Scorpio said: