Spurs 23/24: I'm Loving Big Ange Instead

Kliq

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He also has toughness and balls. Really the midfield depth on this team is stunning, especially when you consider that any half-decent central midfielder is worth a fortune at this point.

There was a stretch of play, probably from like, 48 minutes to 65 minutes, that was just incredible play from this team.
 

DJnVa

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I fucking love it.

The only bad news I saw yesterday was PEH playing over GLC. One of them has to go, one probably has to stay, I would really hope it is the Argentine.

Either way, I can't wait to add Betancour to Maddison and Bissouma, even if Sarr is looking really nice.
I assume PEH over GLC was a game status thing--protecting a lead, there's likely more trust in him. Chasing a goal, maybe you go with GLC.

It's gonna suck in January when Sarr and Bissouma miss some time for the Africa Cup of Nations.
 

CodPiece XL

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I assume PEH over GLC was a game status thing--protecting a lead, there's likely more trust in him. Chasing a goal, maybe you go with GLC.

It's gonna suck in January when Sarr and Bissouma miss some time for the Africa Cup of Nations.
I know that’s only two players, but in the SPL if you have 3 players missing for the African Nations or on Asian Cup duties you are allowed to ask for a postponement. Not sure what the EPL rules are, or if in fact they have any. The downside of course is that it creates a back-log of fixtures.
 

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Just gotta hope Madders, Bentancur, Gio & Skipp (assuming PEH and Ndom are gone) are healthy for the AFCON run. We'll be OK.
 

swiftaw

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I know that’s only two players, but in the SPL if you have 3 players missing for the African Nations or on Asian Cup duties you are allowed to ask for a postponement. Not sure what the EPL rules are, or if in fact they have any. The downside of course is that it creates a back-log of fixtures.
As far as I know there are no such rules in the EPL.
 

DJnVa

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It's becoming a little ludicrous how the extra Spurs players would rather sit around and not play for Tottenham than go elsewhere and play--Lloris, N'dombele, Dier.
 

coremiller

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It's becoming a little ludicrous how the extra Spurs players would rather sit around and not play for Tottenham than go elsewhere and play--Lloris, N'dombele, Dier.
This is probably mostly about money, right? Wouldn't these guys have to take substantial wage cuts to leave?
 

Kliq

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This is probably mostly about money, right? Wouldn't these guys have to take substantial wage cuts to leave?
Not if they went to Saudi Pro League.

Lloris I think is probably holding out for a higher level team in Italy or France that might be in need of a keeper, he probably thinks he can still play European football this year.

Ndombele is happy to probably just collect money and never play again.

Dier appears to be behind Sanchez in the CB pecking order, but its not unrealistic for him to see a decent amount of playing time this year.
 

shaggydog2000

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This is what is happening at just about all the top half EPL teams. Players on big wages who aren't starters in demand are hard to sell. They're getting paid more than bottom half EPL teams or the majority of teams in other leagues are willing to pay. So they go on loan or they sit there.
 

DJnVa

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Yeah, it's not ludicrous just because I'd assume they'd want to actually play but also because of the unique circumstances for each. Bloated squad and we can't move anyone.

Ndombele is our one of our 2 highest paid players I think.
 

DJnVa

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Guys...guys...

...am I supposed to enjoy watching my team play? I feel weird.
 

Zososoxfan

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Re players not moving out--I think the allure of living in London is strong. Especially for guys like Dier and Lloris who have already played most of their futbol. I mean, I think if Lloris gets the opportunity to be a starter in a big 5 league he'll take it, but if he doesn't I can see why he prefers London. Similar with Dier--this is his club and he cares about it dearly. He's also on the last year of his deal and players now understand the leverage in that. Tanguy doesn't make as much sense to me. He still has a career ahead of him if he wants, but I just don't think he wants, or cares for, it. He'll get rich from this Spurs deal then go back and live in France when his deal is up, or next year when he has more leverage. But I think most players in his situation would take a small paycut to go play in another major league. There has to be some other big 5 clubs that would jump at the opportunity to buy low on a player of Tanguy's quality.
 

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Really enjoyed the Bournemouth game, but in full transparency I watched it at 1.25-1.5 speed since I was in the airport and didn't want to pay for wifi on the flight.

To me, this squad is heavily reliant at the moment on Biss and Madders. That's fine, they're both outstanding players, but I think the dropoff from either of them to their backups (especially in Biss's case) could be a real problem. Biss is just an animal on breaking up attacks but also setting the attack off at speed. He's so so good on the turn in just about every direction and with both feet and he's press resistant. GLC could give you similar press resistance and passing, but doesn't have the defensive chops to play there. Skipp and Hoj don't have the skill. Perhaps Ben10 can be the backup to Biss, but who knows what he'll look like post injury. I think GLC can be a fine backup to Madders but man, I underestimated the gap between them. Madders is a real class player and getting him in early was far more than a coup than I thought.

VDV has also been just so much better than I expected, perhaps even better than Romero. I think that their skillsets complement each other very well. Defensively, Romero prefers to aggressively take the ball off attackers--his slide tackle at the top of the box in the first half was exceptional--whereas VDV prefers to defend like Maldini and win the positioning battle with speed and strength. In attack, Romero is still a top notch passer and good carrier, but VDV's carrying is on another level. Even with them though, I think Dav is a serviceable backup, and Biss is more important.

I do think we have a system/personnel mismatch (obviously) in that we get a lot more out of Udogie's attacking talent (which is prodigious) when Perisic is at LW. I think that's due to positioning, as Ivan likes to drop deep and collect the ball there and combine, whereas Son is looking to stay upfield and get the ball and run at defenders. So Udogie can overlap and play the touchline more aggressively with Ivan ahead of him. With Richy struggling hard, I wonder if we'll see Son play through the middle with Ivan starting on the LW.

While Deki did very well on his goal, I think he's been scuffling for months really. He's young and talented so I'm not suggesting any drastic action be taken, but rather that I wonder whether he would be better at playing at AMF in Ange's system.

Richy is pressing hard and he was very unlucky not to score in the first half, but we're just not getting enough out of him at the moment. I'm curious to see what Ange rolls out tomorrow vs. Fulham in the Carabao. Maybe Veliz gets his first taste?

Porro has improved defensively a great deal in a short amount of time. He was much much better defensively this game than his previous outings.

Sarr has also surprised me with just how good he's been. He's young and still makes some baffling decisions, but man the talent is THERE.

Finally, I owe Vicario an apology as he looked much more settled. I'm still not sold on his decision making on when to come out or not on crosses, but the shotstopping and footskills are there.

I don't rate Bournemouth and I don't want to put too much stock into this game. They're still an EPL side and their press gave us a lot of problems at the start of the first and second half for about 15 mins each. But they didn't have the talent to win many 1v1 matchups other than Solanke and Semenyo a couple of times each. I did like Bournemouth's young LB Kerkez. He showed some nice skills and speed a couple of times and handled himself fine on D. One to keep an eye out for.

Up the Spurs!
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Hopefully that's the classic "Spurs over rotate for a cup match, look like they've never played together and lose" match out of the way and Ange doesn't do it again for the FA Cup.
 

CodPiece XL

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Hopefully that's the classic "Spurs over rotate for a cup match, look like they've never played together and lose" match out of the way and Ange doesn't do it again for the FA Cup.
This cup means sweet FA to most EPL clubs, although I am surprised he played such a shadow squad. To fans, yes.. it would be nice to get a bit of silverware. But ultimately I think it’s a top 4 finish that’s the goal. It was very apparent if you saw the game that this line up didn’t understand/ embrace whatever you want to call it Ange Ball. You had Forster at the back trying to play it out at feet and he made Joe Hart at Celtic look like Beckenbauer.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Yeah, the EFL Cup is silly so I am not especially busted up about it, but still annoying to fall at the first hurdle.
 

CodPiece XL

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Yeah, the EFL Cup is silly so I am not especially busted up about it, but still annoying to fall at the first hurdle.
Totally understood. I said in my previous post I was surprised. In the two years I had the pleasure of watching Celtic under his guidance he never really did that. He wanted to win every single game regardless of importance. But the stakes are much higher in the EPL. Ultimately if you are a Spurs fan, under Ange.. it won’t be boring. Hey, Brendan Rodgers just came back to Celtic and we lost in our first Cup game… I’m not happy either. But a little perspective I suppose. Enjoy the ride!
 

Jimy Hendrix

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I’m still very on board with Ange, the first two matches were the most fun I have had watching Spurs in years, this one not so much.

I don’t think he didn’t want to win, the subs were certainly made with victory in mind. I do think he was surprised either by how mediocre the depth is or by how little they understand the assignment.
 

CodPiece XL

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I’m still very on board with Ange, the first two matches were the most fun I have had watching Spurs in years, this one not so much.

I don’t think he didn’t want to win, the subs were certainly made with victory in mind. I do think he was surprised either by how mediocre the depth is or by how little they understand the assignment.
Yep. When you play a shadow side they are not well versed in putting the theory into practice. To add to this, in the 80’s I was on SB forms with Dundee Utd under Jim MacLean . You don’t get the best coaches and you’re not as well drilled as first team players. And you certainly don’t have the same skill sets as the first team, so it’s hard to pull off and mirror first team tactics.
 

DJnVa

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I’m still very on board with Ange, the first two matches were the most fun I have had watching Spurs in years, this one not so much.
Third match was pretty good too.

This was a little "we need to rotate guys a bit" and "see, my depth is shit, get these guys out, and get the guys that can play this system in". And the second part won't be done in one window.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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Ha, I did mean the first three matches.

Completely rotated midfield was the biggest miss for me. One of the things that seems to make Ange's system work is that the midfield is constantly in motion and finding spaces and creating lanes, and that wasn't really happening. Hojberg was sitting as the 6 and even just kinda splitting the CBs like Eric Dier in a Poch team, GLC was mostly staying very high, and Skipp at least seemed to have gotten the memo about being mobile but was doing it in more the "headless" chicken style. As a result, Spurs couldn't really progress through midfield and were just hitting Conte punts out to the wings.

It was odd because Hoj and GLC both seem entirely capable to me of playing those positions with more mobility, they just kinda didn't. Maybe just not enough reps in the system.
 

Zososoxfan

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This cup means sweet FA to most EPL clubs, although I am surprised he played such a shadow squad. To fans, yes.. it would be nice to get a bit of silverware. But ultimately I think it’s a top 4 finish that’s the goal. It was very apparent if you saw the game that this line up didn’t understand/ embrace whatever you want to call it Ange Ball. You had Forster at the back trying to play it out at feet and he made Joe Hart at Celtic look like Beckenbauer.
The thing about the full B side is that they play Burnley on Saturday and then it's the international break. I don't think the full B team switch was with an eye towards Burnley. See below for more details.

I’m still very on board with Ange, the first two matches were the most fun I have had watching Spurs in years, this one not so much.

I don’t think he didn’t want to win, the subs were certainly made with victory in mind. I do think he was surprised either by how mediocre the depth is or by how little they understand the assignment.
Bingo. The B team played well in preseason, but this was a real match. I also think we need to give a lot of credit to FFC. Especially in the first half, they bossed the midfield and their goal came after a spell of possession in the final third lasting over a minute. I remember this vividly because Mrs. Zoso was milling around and I asked for her thoughts on the Spurs kit, and the broadcast never had the chance for a replay during buildup. PS--I think the third kit design is fine, but I don't like the color. Probably because I'm not quite sure how to describe it.

Third match was pretty good too.

This was a little "we need to rotate guys a bit" and "see, my depth is shit, get these guys out, and get the guys that can play this system in". And the second part won't be done in one window.
I do think Ange was a bit surprised by the relative performance of both squads. First and foremost, I think Fulham deserves a lot of credit. I have no idea how much they rotated, if at all, but they were very cohesive.

On our side, I thought both FBs were very poor. I thought Skipp and GLC were very poor. VDV was very good. PEH, Richy, and Perisic were fine. Solomon didn't get a lot of touches but was generally poor. Forster made some really good saves, but his footwork is well below Slick Vic's level.

Going into the match, I thought they needed to rest Biss and Madders, Richy had to play, and that was about the extent of parameters. I don't have a problem with Forster in goal. You want to keep your backup keeper sharp.

Dav looks slightly worse than he did in preseason, which just goes to show that he really does need to be moved on, and if Spurs really did reject a bona fide bid from Rennes (?) for €9M, then they're going to regret it when he has to fill in for Romero (suspended for YC accumulation obviously) against Palace or some club and he shits the bed and the fans lose their shit in return. They know he's on the last year of his deal, right? Take that money and go get a backup the club can get excited about already. Perhaps that was a temporary rejection and they're still trying to line up the incoming--I can dream right?

Apparently Genoa are trying to convince Tanguy to agree to a transfer, but unless Spurs are paying most of his wages, I don't see how this goes through. I wonder how much amortization is left on the transfer fee, because he's still owed £21M (!) in wages over 2 seasons.

Tanganga has been linked with Torino. Good.

Dier to Munich sounds like bunk to me. Dortmund makes some more sense as they have the ability to squeeze juice out of any lemon.

I suspect Reggie and Lloris will have their contracts terminated after Friday.
 

Zososoxfan

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Ha, I did mean the first three matches.

Completely rotated midfield was the biggest miss for me. One of the things that seems to make Ange's system work is that the midfield is constantly in motion and finding spaces and creating lanes, and that wasn't really happening. Hojberg was sitting as the 6 and even just kinda splitting the CBs like Eric Dier in a Poch team, GLC was mostly staying very high, and Skipp at least seemed to have gotten the memo about being mobile but was doing it in more the "headless" chicken style. As a result, Spurs couldn't really progress through midfield and were just hitting Conte punts out to the wings.

It was odd because Hoj and GLC both seem entirely capable to me of playing those positions with more mobility, they just kinda didn't. Maybe just not enough reps in the system.
I agree that the MF was the biggest problem. Perhaps that has something to do with the FBs and wingers too. I did notice Solomon not tracking back a lot and Emerson getting isolated quite a bit. Then again, Ange usually does have the striker and one winger (or Madders) stay high. That said, resting Biss was a good decision, as he's literally the most important player in the squad ATM and having him fresh for Burnley was 1st priority IMO. I've said it before but Biss doesn't have a backup on the squad ATM. Maybe Ben10 can do it, but I also think Ben10 is the starter ahead of Sarr in the Best XI. GLC might be able to play the Ange 6 against low opposition but that's not FFC. PEH also just looks miserable, so maybe if he's stuck on Spurs until January he can get over it and play better. I don't think Sarr over Skipp makes a huge difference yesterday. In sum, resting Biss and Madders was the right call, but the result was UGLY. Maybe with 2 of Udogie/Porro/Son/Deki things look better, and ultimately that's all I would've expected. Then again, Emerson isn't as bad as he looked yesterday and he deserved a shot. Not sure whether Emerson or Porro can play LB. Udogie had a knock, so good idea to rest him. Deki over Solomon might've helped a bit, same with Son over Ivan. Who knows.
 

Jimy Hendrix

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PEH was weird to me in that he looked like he was doing a decent job at doing the completely wrong things (sitting in, making a lot of sideways/negative passes to maIndian possession along the back line, hitting big switches out to the wings)
 

DJnVa

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Lo Celso coming off at halftime a day or so after Ange saying he was in the plans for this season seems...ominous? And I like PEH, but this just isn't the system for him.

As for as N'Dombele--pay a portion or a majority of his wages, whatever it takes. He's clearly NOT going to play here, so we can pay 100% of them for him to enjoy London or 75% of them for him to enjoy some random city in France or Italy. I don't understand why that's a tough decision.
 

Zososoxfan

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PEH was weird to me in that he looked like he was doing a decent job at doing the completely wrong things (sitting in, making a lot of sideways/negative passes to maIndian possession along the back line, hitting big switches out to the wings)
Part of it the Conte-ing of him last season, and part of it the player himself. IOW, I think this is who PEH is--he's a generally safe passer who can play a pass to break the line, and doing it all with good stamina. But he's not quick on the turn, and he's not super creative, and I'd say that's two of the key traits to play in Ange's MF.

Lo Celso coming off at halftime a day or so after Ange saying he was in the plans for this season seems...ominous? And I like PEH, but this just isn't the system for him.

As for as N'Dombele--pay a portion or a majority of his wages, whatever it takes. He's clearly NOT going to play here, so we can pay 100% of them for him to enjoy London or 75% of them for him to enjoy some random city in France or Italy. I don't understand why that's a tough decision.
I wouldn't read too much into GLC coming off. It was clear something had to change in the MF, and I do believe he's considered part of the rotation for important (read: EPL) matches. But you're right, perhaps he's still being considered in transfer talks and it was a hedge. I wouldn't be surprised or too mad to see him go.

Re Tanguy, I completely agree. This isn't like Sanchez, where Sanchez might see the field so holding up a sale until a replacement is lined up makes sense. Tanguy is persona non grata at WHL and they should take whatever they can for him. It shouldn't matter too much whether it's a loan or sale, but I'm sure Spurs would prefer a loan to see if he can pickup his value one last time before selling him for real next summer.
 

DJnVa

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They must have some outgoings ready to roll as well.




But not so fast says Fab:

 

Gunfighter 09

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On one hand..... the most profitable football team in the world is losing out on players to Brighton and Brentford two weeks after they sold the best player in club history. No wonder ownership is so damn popular lately.

On the other hand, a straight loan with no buy option for a high wages young guy like Fati doesn't make a ton of sense for Spurs right now.
 

veritas

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On the other hand, a straight loan with no buy option for a high wages young guy like Fati doesn't make a ton of sense for Spurs right now.
I think it makes sense as a stopgap if they've identified players to acquire next summer. The transfer market is silly this year with all the blood money the Saudis are throwing around, waiting it out is likely a good long-term move.

Especially if the alternative is spending half of the Kane money on Brennan Johnson, who is just plain awful.
 

DJnVa

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In Ange we trust. If he wants the guy, that's enough for me at this point.

 

DJnVa

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Additionally, Reguilon is off to ManU on a season-long loan (with a January break clause).

 

Jimy Hendrix

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His fbref numbers for last year are terrible and that has some people feeling hyperbolically awful about the transfer.

They're in the context of a weak counterattacking team fighting for its life, so I am less bothered by that and am more "wait and see".
 

veritas

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His fbref numbers for last year are terrible and that has some people feeling hyperbolically awful about the transfer.

They're in the context of a weak counterattacking team fighting for its life, so I am less bothered by that and am more "wait and see".
Given his skill profile, you would think he's much better suited to playing on a counter attacking team than in a possession dominant system like Ange's. It's an enormous reach of a signing. He's fast and that's it. Terrible passer, not a great dribbler, doesn't get shots. Players don't usually go from bad to good at those things at 22 years old.
 

Zososoxfan

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Don't know much about the player, but I think Ange just wanted to have a burner for some variety. Son, Richy, Deki, Perisic, Solomon is not a fast group. It's always nice to have a burner like this to tire out defenses for the first hour+ or bring one on against tired legs. It will also help if teams try to play a high line.
 

Zososoxfan

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Also, Japh to Augsburg on a loan with option to buy.

Hoj still being linked to Atleti (although it looks like it's fizzling out) but also linked to FFC, with the player turning it down.

The club also seem to be rejecting lowball offers for Dav. He'll likely be the third CB on the squad until January.

No news so far for Hugo, Tanguy, or Dier.
 

DJnVa

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Why Tottenham want to sign Brennan Johnson (90min.com)

This is why Ange wants him:

As a result, Postecoglou needs wide players who excel when faced up against their opposing full-back. Johnson isn't exactly a one-v-one specialist in the mould of a Jeremy Doku, but he's a fine dribbler and an excellent ball carrier. Compared to forwards in Europe's top five leagues over the past year, Johnson ranks in the 92nd percentile for progressive carries per 90 minutes (2.75) and 62nd percentile for successful take-ons per 90 (0.96).
 

Kliq

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Would Hojbjerg be an every-day starter for Atletico? As it stands he seems to be the first name off the bench at Spurs, and with squad rotation, injuries and both of our current starters at CDM likely to miss time during AFCON, he is probably going to see plenty of playing time. Sarr has also been quite good so far this season, but it wouldn't be shocking either if he had a dip in form, leading to Hoj taking the starting spot.
 

DJnVa

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Would Hojbjerg be an every-day starter for Atletico? As it stands he seems to be the first name off the bench at Spurs, and with squad rotation, injuries and both of our current starters at CDM likely to miss time during AFCON, he is probably going to see plenty of playing time. Sarr has also been quite good so far this season, but it wouldn't be shocking either if he had a dip in form, leading to Hoj taking the starting spot.
I don't know, but Spurs want to offload him and Atletico has been linked for a while.

I just don't think his style fits, but he's.....fine. Betancur will hopefully be in the mid rotation as well. That said, their target (like it or not) was Johnson and they got him without selling or loaning PEH so if he stays I'm okay with it.
 

DJnVa

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Fair enough.

But man, getting his salary off the books for a year is nice, then revisit a sale next window.
 

DJnVa

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He may or may not work out, but you have to back your manager.