TB Suspension: Cheater free to play again
- Thread starter IdiotKicker
- Start date
Yeah sorry I was pulling from the PDF. Here are some good excerpts:Eh, it's a little long.
So frustrating - there's just so much there that's just factually incorrect - like this:
I doubt whether or not Jackson thought the ball was deflated had any effect on the ruling - but it just indicates to me that they didn't actually go through the record.
Is there text of Katzman's dissent anywhere?
So how could the other 2 judges feel pretty much the exact opposite? Did they have their minds made up before seeing the evidence?
Agreed. Hate when people can't just read the past record to get the truth/answers.
Like I said...
This whole thing has done nothing but depress the shit out of me. Not for football reasons. I'm sure they'll be fine for 4 games. But because in this whole farce, the truth hasn't even mattered. I seriously have a lower opinion of the justice system in general after this. I get that this one wasn't about whether or not the balls were deflated. I do. It's just... I mean, at some point in this whole thing, shouldn't that *have* been a factor? Like ever?
Whole fucking world barking at the wind for months, and what does it come down to? Finally get an appeal and Brady/NLFPA win! Why doesn't the story end there? Because the big dog isn't done barking at nothing?
Fuck it all. I better not ever looked like I fucked up legally. In a world where the team with the best lawyers wins, we might as well go back to some kind of Gladiator battle to the death to rule on disputes. At least it'll be entertaining, instead of this shit.
I'll be in my bunker where shit makes goddamn sense.
Whole fucking world barking at the wind for months, and what does it come down to? Finally get an appeal and Brady/NLFPA win! Why doesn't the story end there? Because the big dog isn't done barking at nothing?
Fuck it all. I better not ever looked like I fucked up legally. In a world where the team with the best lawyers wins, we might as well go back to some kind of Gladiator battle to the death to rule on disputes. At least it'll be entertaining, instead of this shit.
I'll be in my bunker where shit makes goddamn sense.
I was gonna go with TL;DR, but I wasn't sure anyone would have gotten the joke. Sometimes I forget SoSH is better than the rest of the internet.
The majority's biggest point is one of law; that the CBA allows Goodell to have the authority to suspend Brady for however long he wants, for essentially whatever Goodell feels is a threat to "the integrity of the game." They felt that the facts of the case are almost immaterial, and (not formally, but basically), as long as they were sufficient to establish a plausible case that Brady did *something*, then Goodell didn't do anything wrong. He has the authority to fuck players over on possibly bogus charges.
Berman and the dissenting judge care more about the facts, because by examining the facts you can't help but deduce that this whole thing rests on a sham that has been framed, post-hoc, by the NFL to permit the suspension.
Like I said above, the majority judges probably went into this with their minds made up not about this case in particular, but how labor agreements and arbitration agreements should be interpreted. THey are of the opinion that labor and management are on a level playing field and make their own bed, and if you sign an arbitration agreement, you better be damned sure you're ok with all of the terms and not come crying to court when the shit hits the fan. Perhaps, if you got them to open up privately, they would tell you that they are sick of labor bitching and moaning about contracts that their own representatives signed.
But isn't the middle not really true? The dissenting judge is basically saying that Goodell is not drawing from the essence of the CBA because he completely ignored the argument regarding stickum. The dissenting judge never mentioned facts unless I missed it. He is saying Goodell overstepped his bounds by A) changing why Brady was punished and B) ignoring stickum and jumping to steroids
Unfortunately, from the oral argument and the decision it seems quite clear Chin made up his mind on the facts of this case beforehand. The degree to which that influenced his legal assessment of the arbitration clause is, of course, completely imponderable...though, getting material facts wrong perhaps in pursuit of a high-profile quote does not inspire confidence in him legally or otherwise.
So I'm guessing the NFL will never reveal the PSI numbers. Or will they get to that after the whole Peyton Manning HGH "investigation"
Sure they can get away with it--look what they've done on neurological damage. And we haven't begun to scratch the surface on orthopaedic damage. They get away with a lot, and as long as we as a public have an insatiable appetite for their product they will continue to get away with it.
The Patriots in general and Brady in specific are unsympathetic figures. At best you have a public rooting for injuries in a Pats v. NFL fight. So your lone recourse is the courts, and while that door hasn't slammed shut just yet, it is just slightly ajar. The Pats, Brady, and NFLPA will make the best business decision within their respective powers. We may just not like it.
Right. I think Chin read the file, and immediately said: "Oh come on, the agreement lets him do this. This is just another example of labor complaining and trying to get a term re-written in their favor." He probably listened to other opinions, but never heard anything that dissuaded him.
They never had any intention of revealing the numbers if things looked OK. They reverted to the tired "We just wanted to make sure procedures were followed" argument, which of course didn't prevent some official from leaving the fucking game balls back at the hotel before a game in Foxboro this year.
These people have zero shame, zero competence, and could fuck up a two car parade. Burn it down.
I just thought of something. Since they pretty much ruled that Goodell has complete power wouldn't that mean he would be in his technical right to suspend Brady for the entire season if he so chose? I mean this has been embarrassing for all parties so I seriously wouldn't be shocked at this point if the suspension actually increased or if the whole Emperor Goodell thing led to a year long stoppage in 2019.
We always hear that Kraft won't go rogue on the NFL because it is his golden goose, etc. Which I buy.
But at what point - if any - would Kraft decide that he's not gonna live forever, that he and his sons and their children are all set for life anyway, so he should go after the NFL? Maybe there is no point, but it would seem like there would be a tipping point.
But at what point - if any - would Kraft decide that he's not gonna live forever, that he and his sons and their children are all set for life anyway, so he should go after the NFL? Maybe there is no point, but it would seem like there would be a tipping point.
He goes nuclear and the Patriots will be treated like the Raiders lonnnnng after Kraft dies. Doubt he wants that to happen to his kids
If you don't think courts are usually slanted towards maintaining the power of the powerful guess again. Thankfully Katzman actually decided to really get into how Goodell' ruling actually came about and whether it was in agreement with the characteristics of how an arbitrator should act. The other two apparently didn't.
This is some bullshit. Katzman's dissent is a great read, and reads like he has a pretty good grasp of what's going on and how the commish erred. But it's really disappointing that the majority didn't bother to look past the powers of the arbitrator to see what a railroad job this was from day 1. I'm sick of this but I hope Brady keeps fighting.
And I see NO WAY the commish reduces the suspension. This decision is only going to make him bolder.
And I see NO WAY the commish reduces the suspension. This decision is only going to make him bolder.
That's not happening either. The increased penalty, or work stoppage over something like this.
Now if you're selling that Kevin Hogan of Stanford looks a bit even better to them today over yesterday, I am all ears.
Andrew Brandt @AndrewBrandt 32s32 seconds ago
I have no knowledge of this, but wonder if NFL would be open to compromise with Brady, having won their cherished CBA precedent argument.
I have no knowledge of this, but wonder if NFL would be open to compromise with Brady, having won their cherished CBA precedent argument.
Kraft cares what the other owners think about him. Listening to him talk they may be his "closest" friends. It's kind of sad and it shaped his inability to fight the PR battle the right way. The other owners are the ones that are really at fault here. Not Goodell. They are his boss and he is doing what they want.
Why would they compromise? When have they ever? What would compromise even look like here? Confess and we'll knock off a game.
Hard pass.
I would say that there's no chance of this.
It looks like Brady is worth 4 points on the betting lines.
RJ Bell @RJinVegas 1m1 minute agoNevada, USA
#Patriots lines [@CGTechnology_] Wk 1: +4.5 at Ari (was Pk) Wk 2: -4.5 vs Mia (was -9) Wk 3: -3 vs Hou (was -7) Wk 4: -3 vs Buf (was -7.5)
I'd guess that the compromise would be that Goodell makes Brady parade Park Avenue for a day wearing nothing but a scarlet red letter. Thurman Thomas can't drive a car because his brain is damaged but thank God for the integrity of the game. F this commish and F this league. Appeal appeal appeal.
The thing about this for the NFL, is they've been involved in the procedure, protecting powers under CBA, precedent, etc., on this and the other cases for so long, they should probably be open to a compromise that leaves this decision on the books in exchange for some walk back by the commissioner on the suspension. I say should because if I was Goodell and the NFL, protecting the power is 1A and punishing Brady is way down the list. He can even sell it as I have the power to suspend and the power to reconsider, that's what I'm doing now that the court has agreed with our powers under the CBA.
Now that's what I think he should or could do, but I doubt he does it. He knows a 4 game suspension is viewed generally as the Commissioner wins. He walks that back and it comes across as a huge waste of money and an admission he was wrong all along. Right now, he's sitting there thinking it may have cost $15M, but it was worth it to protect my powers under the CBA.
Now that's what I think he should or could do, but I doubt he does it. He knows a 4 game suspension is viewed generally as the Commissioner wins. He walks that back and it comes across as a huge waste of money and an admission he was wrong all along. Right now, he's sitting there thinking it may have cost $15M, but it was worth it to protect my powers under the CBA.
It's just infuriating to read the decisions and see they don't even reflect the actual record before them.
Plus, Goodell can literally invoke Article 46, follow the proper forms (or not follow doesn't really matter), and he's good.
Plus, Goodell can literally invoke Article 46, follow the proper forms (or not follow doesn't really matter), and he's good.
Based on what you and other legal minds have posted, it sure seems a little late for that now.
I don't really think media cycles mean fuck all for the team and don't think knowing now rather than in August has more than marginal value unless it was like the week before the season of something. Im with you that this is effectively over and no one is burning anything to the ground, but that's not what I was addressing.
The practicalities seem pretty simple and are pretty similar as they are for losing the 1st round draft pick with the consequences more concentrated on the '16 season. Its not the end of the franchise or a definite death knoll for the season or anything, but I have a strong reaction to the idea it is any sort of positive. (sure, Jimmy G could turn out to be awesome and/or the Pats can go 4-0 and then trade Jimmy G for a 1st rounder or something. Im hoping for that with every fiber of my being, but it would be like hitting on 18 and catching blackjack) or that we should just assume the team should go 2-2 or 3-1 no problem. The Pats lost a decent chunk of '16 Super Bowl equity today. The Pats quarterback position for the 1st quarter of the year is, objectively, right now one of the worst in football. Nothing about today is a positive.
I believe the precedent is the opportunity to sleep with his wife.
We know this wouldn't happen under President Trump
Depends what you want to achieve. If the precedent is really important to you and, in the end, you don't give a shit about the number of games and think you've made your point, even a 2 percent chance of getting slapped down by the Supreme Court on the authority of the pre-eminent sports league's commissioner is worth something. NFL doesn't operate that way, though. I don't imagine there would be a compromise, but certainly I've had clients give stuff up to avoid a cert petition where the court of appeals decisions set good precedent for their business and they didn't want to mess with it, even where the chances of a cert grant seemed very low.
Yep. I was one of the few here who would have advised Tom to cut a deal -- if one were possible -- a long time ago.
But in the end, I think that urging would have been wholly academic and meaningless in that I don't think there was ever a deal on the table where he would not have to admit guilt and I do not think Tom would have ever admitted guilt. I assume we will never exactly know that the bid-ask was, and there will be conflicting reports over time. But again, I assume that any deal would have required Tom to admit guilt, and I doubt he would ever be willing to go there. Not that I think he should have.
As that relates to today, I agree with Jed. The NFL wont compromise and even if that's wrong and they would give back something small, it would come at a price that Tom would not be willing to pay.
I think that most of the players are short-sighted, selfish, almost perfectly rational actors if they choose to try to leverage this for more money for the majority of their membership instead of choosing to die for Tom Brady on a hill that the vast majority of them will never see . . . which doesn't help.
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I hope not because its sort of come out that a lot of the other owners don't really like or respect him.
Who makes the decision about whether to pursue an appeal -- the NFLPA, Brady?
If it were up to the Pats, I bet BB would say fuck it -- let TB sit for the first four so we can plan accordingly and avert the possibility of a court springing a December surprise on us.
The Pats will cope and be OK. The NFL can kiss the biggest pimple dotting my pasty white ass.
If it were up to the Pats, I bet BB would say fuck it -- let TB sit for the first four so we can plan accordingly and avert the possibility of a court springing a December surprise on us.
The Pats will cope and be OK. The NFL can kiss the biggest pimple dotting my pasty white ass.
I don't think the NFL would offer a reduced suspension because they want to avoid a rehearing en banc
And typically such a fact based arbitration case isn't going to go up to SCOTUS.
However, the Eighth Circuit still has the NFL/Adrian Peterson's appeal I believe. If the Eighth rules against the NFL, there will be two circuits disagreeing on essentially the same legal issue. A lot of SCOTUS' cases are ruling on split circuit issues.
What would be really interesting is Brady's response to an offer of 2-3 games. Does he reject it out of principal to maintain his innocence or accept for the betterment of the team?
I think this is true, and if Kraft doesn't realize it (I bet he does), then shame on him. He's been played here, or more accurately, run over by a freight train, and the spectacularly preposterous explanation that he gave for caving (hoping Goodell would then reduce the suspension) must have had the other owners laughing their collective saggy balls off when they heard that one. Kraft came off like a rube. A billionaire rube, but a rube nonetheless.
So it was Clinton who originally appointed Judge Chin, just another reason not to trust the Clintons. Obama moved him up to this level. Certainly not someone who is without bias towards labour.
An interesting read: http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/DennyChin-QFRs.pdf
An interesting read: http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/DennyChin-QFRs.pdf
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+1. The brevity of NFL careers contributes mightily to a union with relatively little bargaining power. They simply do not want, and cannot sustain, a work stoppage over something like this. In this case it is definitely not cretins voting against their economic interests.I think that most of the players are short-sighted, selfish, almost perfectly rational actors if they choose to try to leverage this for more money for the majority of their membership instead of choosing to die for Tom Brady on a hill that the vast majority of them will never see . . . which doesn't help.
Right now Brady is texting Jimmy:
"See that Jimmy, they're all assuming easy wins against us while I'm out"
"Nobody outside this locker room believes in you. You're not going to take that are you?"
"They think they won, they've won nothing, you got this"
"See that Jimmy, they're all assuming easy wins against us while I'm out"
"Nobody outside this locker room believes in you. You're not going to take that are you?"
"They think they won, they've won nothing, you got this"
I wouldn't blame Brady at all if he called a press conference, sat all four of his rings on the podium, thanked the fans and all of his teammates for a great run of success together, but retires because he no longer wants to be part of a league that disciplines players because their hard work, honest approach to the game, and subsequent success is met with constant sour grapes and petulance. Explain that if the legacy he's been fighting for for nearly two decades can be destroyed by a select few with an axe to grind, he no longer has any interest in having a legacy associated with the National Football League whatsoever. Mention one last time that he never deflated or ordered the deflation of footballs, and that he's personally embarrassed to have his name associated with such a ridiculous power struggle between the NFL and it's hardworking, selflessly-at-risk-of-longterm-injury players.
Mic drop, walk off the podium, buy an island, bang Gisele forever, watch as the NFL continues its massive fall over the next decade.
Edit: iOS autocorrection corrections
Mic drop, walk off the podium, buy an island, bang Gisele forever, watch as the NFL continues its massive fall over the next decade.
Edit: iOS autocorrection corrections
Isn't the likely outcome now that the NFL won the appeal, that the negotiations will work in reverse? To remove a power previously held by the commissioner, the PA is going to have to cede ground in some other area, not gain it.I think that most of the players are short-sighted, selfish, almost perfectly rational actors if they choose to try to leverage this for more money for the majority of their membership instead of choosing to die for Tom Brady on a hill that the vast majority of them will never see . . . which doesn't help.