That’s my quarterback!……or is he?

What is your current take on the Pats’ QB situation heading into 2023?

  • Rough year but Mac is still my guy for 2023

    Votes: 24 6.9%
  • Team Zappe all the way!

    Votes: 14 4.0%
  • Let Mac and Zappe fight it out in camp (not literally) and best man wins

    Votes: 75 21.4%
  • The 2023 QB isn’t currently on the roster

    Votes: 115 32.9%
  • Not sure - I need to see Mac with better coaching, OL, and players

    Votes: 118 33.7%
  • Knibb High Football Rules!

    Votes: 4 1.1%

  • Total voters
    350

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,520
The only person calling for a suspension is a Bengals beat reporter. A fine seems likely.

And just a reminder that Warren Sapp was praised for taking out a Green Bay lineman on an interception return happening on the other side of the field.

edit: corrected position
 

luckiestman

Son of the Harpy
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
33,389
The only person calling for a suspension is a Bengals beat reporter. A fine seems likely.

And just a reminder that Warren Sapp was praised for taking out a Green Bay receiver on an interception return happening on the other side of the field.
Sapp injured a lineman in a dirty play. Is that what you are referring to?
 

Ralphwiggum

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 27, 2012
9,860
Needham, MA
Personally the tackle to me looks like it's made out of frustration and while that's definitely not laudable or wise, I can empathize with it. I can imagine doing (and regretting) that in the heat of the moment. Drunk driving, as a random common example, I personally find less forgivable than that tackle. I'd much rather they cut moderately productive DUI offenders than sportsmanship ones.
It's apples and hand grenades. Sure, I'd rather the teams I root for not have drunk drivers or serial abusers and the like on the roster. And there is a point at which I'd stop watching or rooting for a team if they signed someone particularly heinous (I would have a really hard time rooting for Deshaun Watson as the QB of the Pats, for example). But the reality is that if you follow professional sports and root for particular teams, there are going to be guys on the rosters of the teams you root for who are not good people. The only solution to me is to not follow, which is completely reasonable and I'd understand anyone who made that decision. I just personally don't feel the need to completely give up professional sports because of that (at least yet).

But when you are talking about on-the-field stuff, I mean, that is the core of what you are doing when you watch sports, you are watching guys perform at the highest level of athletic competition. And while I can forgive a transgression or two in the heat of the moment, these guys are competitors after all and you can't expect them to keep their cool at all times, when a player continually does cheap/dirty stuff, particularly when the act itself might cause injury to another player, well, I'd just rather not root for that player. It cuts against the entire point of following sports, to watch guys compete against each other at the highest level within the bounds of the rules of the sport. I'm not saying Mac is there yet, but for a guy with a short career in the NFL he's got a few more marks against him than I would like. And that is not even getting into the potential for retaliation, which puts the other guys on the Pats who I actually like to root for potentially at risk.

My $.02, YMMV obviously.
 

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,496
I don't remember Sapp being praised although I don't doubt some did. I do remember plenty calling it a cheap shot and still hear people call it one of the cheapest hits in the NFL.

But the rules were very different then. In fact, I believe they changed the rules that offseason in response to that hit.

Still, Mac's was different. His play was dangerous and illegal. He will likely get a deserved fine.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,728
It's apples and hand grenades. Sure, I'd rather the teams I root for not have drunk drivers or serial abusers and the like on the roster. And there is a point at which I'd stop watching or rooting for a team if they signed someone particularly heinous (I would have a really hard time rooting for Deshaun Watson as the QB of the Pats, for example). But the reality is that if you follow professional sports and root for particular teams, there are going to be guys on the rosters of the teams you root for who are not good people. The only solution to me is to not follow, which is completely reasonable and I'd understand anyone who made that decision. I just personally don't feel the need to completely give up professional sports because of that (at least yet).

But when you are talking about on-the-field stuff, I mean, that is the core of what you are doing when you watch sports, you are watching guys perform at the highest level of athletic competition. And while I can forgive a transgression or two in the heat of the moment, these guys are competitors after all and you can't expect them to keep their cool at all times, when a player continually does cheap/dirty stuff, particularly when the act itself might cause injury to another player, well, I'd just rather not root for that player. It cuts against the entire point of following sports, to watch guys compete against each other at the highest level within the bounds of the rules of the sport. I'm not saying Mac is there yet, but for a guy with a short career in the NFL he's got a few more marks against him than I would like. And that is not even getting into the potential for retaliation, which puts the other guys on the Pats who I actually like to root for potentially at risk.

My $.02, YMMV obviously.
A good example is when Gronk dove on that Buffalo DB after the INT where he got held. It was a dirty play but was out of character so it’s easier to forgive. Mac’s pattern of on field behavior is just not good right now and he’s had multiple instances of this stuff.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,592
The Sapp play - didn’t the Green Bay coach hunt him down after and get in his face it was so dirty? I think that coach had Boston connections and I was impressed seeing him go right at Warren.

It’s not a sportsmanship issue. This isn’t putting stuff on baseballs or even deflating footballs. Dirty plays that can injure people turn fans because it’s the basic moral compromise of sports that we’re not out there trying to hurt each other outside the rules - even in sports like boxing, you can be dirty like Bernard Hopkins and hit peoples’ hips and legs, but if your rabbit punch you’re an asshole. If not for your opponents’ sake, so your own teammates don’t face retaliation.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
493
Mac has had some questionable hits (to put it lightly) that honestly, I would prefer not to see as a Pats fan. Not that I am defending him, but everything is such a mess (starting with coaching) that I would be curious to see what he acts like when he has competent guidance around him.
 

Jungleland

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 2, 2009
2,384
Coincidentally perhaps, worth noting in the discussion that Mac also has a DUI.

He seems like he has some growing up to do. I don’t like seeing a pattern of dirty plays, he needs to cut the shit there. As far as the verbal frustration, feels kind of overblown to me. It’s not the best look, but I appreciate that it’s obvious he gives a shit about winning.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,728
Mac has had some questionable hits (to put it lightly) that honestly, I would prefer not to see as a Pats fan. Not that I am defending him, but everything is such a mess (starting with coaching) that I would be curious to see what he acts like when he has competent guidance around him.
Why aren’t we seeing dirty plays from others on the team? Mac isn’t the only player impacted by Belichick’s poor coaching decisions. Mac is an adult. He’s a grown man. It’d be nice if he started acting like one. I hope he turns everything around. He’ll get more chances to do so next year. True growth typically comes when someone looks inward, not outward.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,514
Why aren’t we seeing dirty plays from others on the team? Mac isn’t the only player impacted by Belichick’s poor coaching decisions. Mac is an adult. He’s a grown man. It’d be nice if he started acting like one. I hope he turns everything around. He’ll get more chances to do so next year. True growth typically comes when someone looks inward, not outward.
Yeah, I'm baffled by people's rush to blame the coaches for everything. Yes, Patricia's playcalling isn't good. Bill Bellichick didn't become a bad coach after 35 years overnight. Players can suck, players can be dumb, players can be undisciplined assholes. In fact, usually that is the case far more than coaching issues.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
493
Why aren’t we seeing dirty plays from others on the team? Mac isn’t the only player impacted by Belichick’s poor coaching decisions. Mac is an adult. He’s a grown man. It’d be nice if he started acting like one. I hope he turns everything around. He’ll get more chances to do so next year. True growth typically comes when someone looks inward, not outward.
Not sure if you misunderstood me here. I'm not saying that the coaching is crap and can't coach Mac into a model citizen. I'm saying Mac needs to grow up (I think we agree there) and that if the team around him was performing better, that would probably help him out. I'm not a college FB person, but did he pull this stuff at Alabama? Another poster mentioned a DUI, but I don't recall any pre-draft stuff about him being an a-hole (but maybe I missed it). But Bama was a great situation that he just wasn't pushed to act out.
 

ngruz25

Bibby
SoSH Member
Sep 20, 2005
19,115
Pittsburgh, PA
Why is Mac even initiating contact with the Bengals player? The Bengals had the ball. The Patriots were chasing the Bengals guy. Mac basically blocked a blocker. And obviously, it was well behind the play.

The guy's earning his reputation for dirty play, that's for sure.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,728
Not sure if you misunderstood me here. I'm not saying that the coaching is crap and can't coach Mac into a model citizen. I'm saying Mac needs to grow up (I think we agree there) and that if the team around him was performing better, that would probably help him out. I'm not a college FB person, but did he pull this stuff at Alabama? Another poster mentioned a DUI, but I don't recall any pre-draft stuff about him being an a-hole (but maybe I missed it). But Bama was a great situation that he just wasn't pushed to act out.
My post was more on a commentary that we seem to reflexively defend/rationalize Mac’s actions on this board because he is operating in a suboptimal setting. Most people generally act better when they’re winning so if the Pats were 11-4 right now, I’m sure we’d see a different Mac.

He just doesn’t seem to handle adversity well, which is not exactly a great trait for an NFL QB. The problem is that pushing the reset button isn’t easy in this market. I truly hope that he just flushes this season down the toilet. I’m disappointed in his performance but his behavior is far more disappointing to me given what we saw last year. He was saying/doing everything right, as if he were a young Brady (comparing demeanor, not performance). Now? I don’t know what to think. He probably gets one more season to clean it up in 2023. Let’s hope he does.
 

Manuel Aristides

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 7, 2009
237
Why are you comparing off field behavior to on field behavior? Would you want to root for a Sox pitcher who continually throws at batters’ heads? What about if the Celtics had Grayson Allen? What Mac did was dirty and cheap. Making a career in the NFL is tough. The player he tried to take out could have easily had his ruined by Mac’s attempt. The fact that he’s acting out of frustration isn’t a good justification. Doesn’t make Mac a bad human being but his on field persona needs some adjustments.
I guess because they're both... behavior? I could just as well ask you why you're separating them, but, I'm really not criticizing your/any reaction so much as I am thinking about where it comes from and what it says about sport, fandom, etc. I think it is interesting that the rules of the game might govern someone's opinion about a player in a way that the rules of society might not. I agree that frustration is no justification for trying to hurt someone, and am sorry if I implied as much; Risking someone's NFL career is doubtless serious business, though in fairness, more is certainly risked by the DUI. I just meant that I can imagine making that mistake of sport-frustration more easily than some other ones. YMMV, as they say.

It's apples and hand grenades. [...] But the reality is that if you follow professional sports and root for particular teams, there are going to be guys on the rosters of the teams you root for who are not good people. The only solution to me is to not follow, which is completely reasonable and I'd understand anyone who made that decision. I just personally don't feel the need to completely give up professional sports because of that (at least yet).
Agreed.

But when you are talking about on-the-field stuff, I mean, that is the core of what you are doing when you watch sports, you are watching guys perform at the highest level of athletic competition. And while I can forgive a transgression or two in the heat of the moment, these guys are competitors after all and you can't expect them to keep their cool at all times, when a player continually does cheap/dirty stuff, particularly when the act itself might cause injury to another player, well, I'd just rather not root for that player. It cuts against the entire point of following sports, to watch guys compete against each other at the highest level within the bounds of the rules of the sport. I'm not saying Mac is there yet, but for a guy with a short career in the NFL he's got a few more marks against him than I would like. And that is not even getting into the potential for retaliation, which puts the other guys on the Pats who I actually like to root for potentially at risk.

My $.02, YMMV obviously.
Thanks, that's pretty fair I think. In the end, it's the same thing; where is the line for rooting for an odious person crossed. Probably that we see (and replay) the on-field stuff, and engage with it emotionally more than we'd readily admit while sober, likely explains some of the "scale" discrepancy I suppose I'm talking about.

Anyway sorry to derail the conversation, I for one would like to see Mac improve, but my gut says it isn't going to happen. Useless analysis, so I'll see myself out.
 

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,728
I guess because they're both... behavior? I could just as well ask you why you're separating them, but, I'm really not criticizing your/any reaction so much as I am thinking about where it comes from and what it says about sport, fandom, etc. I think it is interesting that the rules of the game might govern someone's opinion about a player in a way that the rules of society might not. I agree that frustration is no justification for trying to hurt someone, and am sorry if I implied as much; Risking someone's NFL career is doubtless serious business, though in fairness, more is certainly risked by the DUI. I just meant that I can imagine making that mistake of sport-frustration more easily than some other ones. YMMV, as they say.



Agreed.



Thanks, that's pretty fair I think. In the end, it's the same thing; where is the line for rooting for an odious person crossed. Probably that we see (and replay) the on-field stuff, and engage with it emotionally more than we'd readily admit while sober, likely explains some of the "scale" discrepancy I suppose I'm talking about.

Anyway sorry to derail the conversation, I for one would like to see Mac improve, but my gut says it isn't going to happen. Useless analysis, so I'll see myself out.
You haven’t derailed the conversation at all. It’s one worth having. I think my simple answer is that fans generally don’t care about what athletes do after games as long as it’s not some Tyreek Hill or Ray Rice level of depravity. Additionally, most of the time there isn’t video so it doesn’t have the same impact.

If we just heard about the McGinest story, we’d all probably just shrug it off and form our own biased conclusions. But with video? There’s no hiding.

And that’s what I think the key difference is between on field and off field reactions. There is ALWAYS video on field. If Mac Jones dives into someone’s knee, we’re going to see it. If he attacks someone at a bar, we probably won’t. And that’ll influence how many of us will react.
 

jk333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2009
4,349
Boston
As a Team Zappe voter (12 of us!), I’ll qualify my vote as-

let them compete in 2023 camp but that I expect Zappe to be the best option available in 2023.

With that said, I’m on board with letting Zappe’s audition start now. If he bombs badly enough, you know he’s not the guy next year and all 12 of us voters are wrong. You also get insight into what Patricia and the receivers can do. (changes needed but right now everyone looks terrible) This could be valuable when building the 2023 team and coaching staff. As it stands, nothing is changing with Mac Jones as qb. Whether it’s Patricia, the receivers or Mac, the point is they are lousy week in and week out.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
13,016
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
As a Team Zappe voter (12 of us!), I’ll qualify my vote as-

let them compete in 2023 camp but that I expect Zappe to be the best option available in 2023.

With that said, I’m on board with letting Zappe’s audition start now. If he bombs badly enough, you know he’s not the guy next year and all 12 of us voters are wrong. You also get insight into what Patricia and the receivers can do. (changes needed but right now everyone looks terrible) This could be valuable when building the 2023 team and coaching staff. As it stands, nothing is changing with Mac Jones as qb. Whether it’s Patricia, the receivers or Mac, the point is they are lousy week in and week out.
They control their own destiny to make the playoffs and can potentially grab the final WC spot even by going 1-1, the chance of them starting Zappe in these games is zero point zero. Had the Dolphins beaten the Packers there was a shot.
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
11,185
Learned from the link that he was fined earlier for unsportsmanlike conduct vs the Bills.
Neither was for much money, but I would suppose he goes on their unofficial watch list for future infractions.
He also now has a rep for questionable tactics.
Within that link there’s another link to a video compilation of 4 different “dirty” plays by Mac.
2 of them I think could be viewed either way (personally I thought the Burns trip was dirty but there’s a sideways slide against the Bears that doesn’t look like much to me) then 2 that are, IMO, pretty obviously dirty. One is the Eli Apple block and then a slide where he kicks his leg up at the end of a slide in a pretty exaggerated motion and ends up kicking Jaquan Brisker in the nuts.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,345
Melrose, MA
Yeah, I'm baffled by people's rush to blame the coaches for everything. Yes, Patricia's playcalling isn't good. Bill Bellichick didn't become a bad coach after 35 years overnight. Players can suck, players can be dumb, players can be undisciplined assholes. In fact, usually that is the case far more than coaching issues.
Well, they had an offensive system that worked well enough last year, they scrapped it, and now they are a complete undisciplined, assignment-missing, wrong-route-running mess.

Last year, Kendrick Bourne has 925 yards from scrimmage, including 55 catches in 70 targets for 800 receiving yards and 5 TD. He also had 12 carries for 125 yards.

So this year the Pats decided to scrub Bourne out of the offense. Going into game 15, he has 4 carries for 8 yards and 24 catches in 32 targets for 273 yards and no touchdowns.

Going into game 15, the Pats as an offense had just three 100 yard receiving games, from Agholor in game 2, Parker in game 3, and Meyers in game 5. Zero 100 yard receiving games in games 6 through 14.

In the first half of game 15, it is mostly more of the same. Mac targets Bourne once for an incompletion. They do run the basically vanished-from-the-offense jet sweep - a play they have been running successfully for a decade, including frequently to Bourne last year, and Bourne gains 29 yards for their best play of the first half.

Then comes the second half of game 15, and Mac targets Bourne 8 times, for 6 catches, 100 yards, and a TD.

Are we to believe that it is Mac who went into the season thinking "fuck Kendrick Bourne!" and only became willing to throw to him again after halftime? Or is it more likely that the coaches buried Bourne, only turning to him out of a mix of injuries and desperation, only to see Bourne perform exactly the way he did last year?

Mac had plenty to answer for this year but he did not set himself up to fail and then double down on a broken approach until there was basically no alternative available but to resort to throwin the ball to his most impactful receiver from a year ago.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,292
The question is… why would the Pats coaching staff freeze Bourne out? Are they stupid? Do they not see how impactful he can be?

What the heck has been going on that would have caused them to freeze Bourne - their most impactful weapon at WR - out of the offense, especially when the team desperately needs offensive playmakers?
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
38,829
Hingham, MA
The question is… why would the Pats coaching staff freeze Bourne out? Are they stupid? Do they not see how impactful he can be?

What the heck has been going on that would have caused them to freeze Bourne - their most impactful weapon at WR - out of the offense, especially when the team desperately needs offensive playmakers?
By all reports it started in the summer. Seemed like he was making mistakes, unsure if it was work ethic related or what. But he was in the doghouse super early.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,292
By all reports it started in the summer. Seemed like he was making mistakes, unsure if it was work ethic related or what. But he was in the doghouse super early.
Well if that’s true then instead of us blaming Mac or even the coaches for freezing him out, maybe we should lay the blame at Bourne’s feet for crippling the offense.

Of course, like the vast majority of things related to the Patriots, we really have no idea.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
Well, they had an offensive system that worked well enough last year, they scrapped it, and now they are a complete undisciplined, assignment-missing, wrong-route-running mess.
I don’t disagree with a lot of your frustration. The issues with the offense this year are legion. I also can’t tell what was scrapping the system and what was losing the system when McDaniels left and took most of the offensive coaching staff with him, plus Ivan Fears retired.

As far as I can tell, only 4 offensive coaches remain: Nick Caley (tight ends/fullbacks), Troy Brown (wide receivers/kick returners), Vinnie Sunseri (running backs), Billy Yates (assistant O-line) and coaching assistant Tyler Hughes.

That’s a pretty massive amount of staff turnover. And Belichick’s transition plan seems to have been a disaster regardless.

In a bit I can try to take a look at how the Titans have fared post -Arthur Smith and the Packers post-Hackett as points of reference.
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,290
I don’t disagree with a lot of your frustration. The issues with the offense this year are legion. I also can’t tell what was scrapping the system and what was losing the system when McDaniels left and took most of the offensive coaching staff with him, plus Ivan Fears retired.

As far as I can tell, only 4 offensive coaches remain: Nick Caley (tight ends/fullbacks), Troy Brown (wide receivers/kick returners), Vinnie Sunseri (running backs), Billy Yates (assistant O-line) and coaching assistant Tyler Hughes.

That’s a pretty massive amount of staff turnover. And Belichick’s transition plan seems to have been a disaster regardless.
That's not a good excuse.

The 49ers lost 6 offensive coaches during the off-season including their offensive coordinator. They are currently a super bowl favorite while starting a 7th round draft pick at QB.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,514
That's not a good excuse.

The 49ers lost 6 offensive coaches during the off-season including their offensive coordinator. They are currently a super bowl favorite while starting a 7th round draft pick at QB.
Their head coach designs and calls the plays, they lost mid-level guys not the top. Shanahan runs that offense top to bottom.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
493
The question is… why would the Pats coaching staff freeze Bourne out? Are they stupid? Do they not see how impactful he can be?

What the heck has been going on that would have caused them to freeze Bourne - their most impactful weapon at WR - out of the offense, especially when the team desperately needs offensive playmakers?
I do think BB has a history of sending people to the doghouse fast for reasons that people will never know (or agree with, maybe). Off the top of my head, Bourne this year, benching Butler in the SB, Adalius Thomas (at the time, thought to be *the model* BB player) having friction from day 1, Jonas Gray... I am sure there are others. Brady did this a bit too when a rookie would miss a thrown ball and Brady would pointedly refuse to throw to them for a long time. I assume this is some way of ensuring everyone stays in line, but it also seems like it pisses off other people who don't want to play in a system that demands total perfection or you never get another chance. And in the case of Bourne, might be affecting the season. This is all speculation and clearly BBs stuff works (or at least has worked), but I feel like at one point there are diminishing returns with that style.
 

dynomite

Member
SoSH Member
That's not a good excuse.

The 49ers lost 6 offensive coaches during the off-season including their offensive coordinator. They are currently a super bowl favorite while starting a 7th round draft pick at QB.
I’m not saying it’s an “excuse” for anything — I was responding to the suggestion they scrapped the 2021 offense.

And as @Cellar-Door points out, I don’t think that’s a fair comparison either.
 

The Social Chair

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,290
Their head coach designs and calls the plays, they lost mid-level guys not the top. Shanahan runs that offense top to bottom.
Not quite true. Shanahan would call the plays on game day but McDaniel would come up with the schemes and game plan.

He also lost their defensive coordinator to the Jets a couple of seasons back and they currently have the best defense in the NFL.


:

Rich Scangarello: Quarterbacks coach, 49ers (2017-18) —> Offensive coordinator, Denver Broncos (2019)
Jeff Hafley: Defensive backs coach, 49ers (2017-18) —> Co-defensive coordinator/defensive backs, Ohio State (2019) —> Head coach, Boston College (2020-21)
2020:

Joe Woods: Defensive backs coach, 49ers (2019) —> Defensive coordinator, Cleveland Browns (2020-21)
Chris Kiffin: Pass rush specialist, 49ers (2018-19) —> D-line coach, Cleveland Browns (2020-21)

2021:

Robert Saleh: Defensive coordinator, 49ers (2017-20) —> Head coach, New York Jets
Mike Lafleur: Passing game coordinator, 49ers (2017-20) —> Offensive coordinator (playcaller), New York Jets
John Benton: Offensive line coach, 49ers (2017-20) —> Offensive line coach/run game coordinator, New York Jets
Aaron Whitecotton: Assistant defensive line coach, 49ers (2020) —> Defensive line coach, New York Jets
Miles Austin: Offensive quality control, 49ers (2019) —> Wide receivers coach, New York Jets
Jon “Taylor” Embree: Offensive quality control, 49ers (2017-19), son of TE coach Jon Embree —> Running backs coach, New York Jets
2022:

Mike McDaniel: Run game specialist (2017), Run game coordinator, 49ers (2017-21) —> Head coach, Miami Dolphins
Jon Embree: Assistant head coach/tight ends coach, 49ers (2017-21) —> Assistant head coach/tight ends coach, Miami Dolphins
Wes Welker: Wide receivers coach, 49ers, (2019-21) —> Wide receivers coach, Miami Dolphins
Richard Hightower: Special teams coordinator, 49ers (2017-21) —> Special teams coordinator, Chicago Bears
Butch Barry: Assistant offensive line coach, 49ers (2021) —> Offensive line coach, Denver Broncos
Zach Yenser: Assistant offensive line coach, 49ers (2019-21) —> Offensive line coach, University of Kentucky
 
Last edited:

jk333

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 26, 2009
4,349
Boston
Well if that’s true then instead of us blaming Mac or even the coaches for freezing him out, maybe we should lay the blame at Bourne’s feet for crippling the offense.

Of course, like the vast majority of things related to the Patriots, we really have no idea.
In my opinion the offensive coaches should have brought Bourne back into the rotation earlier this year. You can be a hardass but you’ve got to do it with a plan. You can’t just keep a player on the bench indefinitely. He’s even signed for next year.

Bourne clearly has rapport with Mac and they have played well. Contrast that with Agholor who has been a net negative to the offense all season. I say this as someone who blames Mac for almost all the biggest Patriots offensive problems this year. I think coaches have latitude to make a point with players but it’s gotta be to an end goal. I’m not seeing that their plan worked at all with Bourne. On the other hand to throw the coaches a bit of credit, Zappe approximated Mac’s rookie performance in an offense that is supposedly chaos. Makes me question if the offense is chaos or if Mac just stinks.
Edit- spoiler- I think Mac stinks but have been perplexed by just not using Bourne
 
Last edited:

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
45,345
Melrose, MA
Changing coordinators happens all the time in the NFL, has happened repeatedly throughout BB's tenure with the Pats, and hasn't until now been an issue.That doesn't mean it isn't one now. That BB could go from Weis to McD to BOB to McD again with no major problems does not mean going to Patricia/Judge was going to be fine.

In any case, causes aside, the Pats had an at-least-functional offense last year under McD and decided to blow it up and rebuild under a pair of coaches who were offensive novices. And it failed spectacularly.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,720
02130
Well if that’s true then instead of us blaming Mac or even the coaches for freezing him out, maybe we should lay the blame at Bourne’s feet for crippling the offense.

Of course, like the vast majority of things related to the Patriots, we really have no idea.
I made a post in the Pats offense thread but all the reports from camp were that Thornton looked very good and Bourne did not. And if he mouthed off to Patricia or whatever, limiting Bourne early on made some sense in that context.

But four months later when he's your most productive receiver every time you let him on the field and no one else is doing much (especially Agholor), you have to move forward. Whatever point you were trying to make was made.

I will keep repeating this but there's nothing wrong with trying a new thing early on with the coaches you think have a good plan. But when you show almost no improvement in obvious places like RECEIVERS RUNNING INTO EACH OTHER it's time to maybe make some changes. Occam's razor tells you that the plan isn't going to magically coalesce and create a great offense, but rather that it fucking sucks.

Instead of "relaxing and recharging" over the bye week in early November the offense should have been stripping away the stuff that was broken and hammering on the things that work. It wouldn't have taken much more to have clinched a playoff spot by now.
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,358
from the wilds of western ma
I made a post in the Pats offense thread but all the reports from camp were that Thornton looked very good and Bourne did not. And if he mouthed off to Patricia or whatever, limiting Bourne early on made some sense in that context.

But four months later when he's your most productive receiver every time you let him on the field and no one else is doing much (especially Agholor), you have to move forward. Whatever point you were trying to make was made.

I will keep repeating this but there's nothing wrong with trying a new thing early on with the coaches you think have a good plan. But when you show almost no improvement in obvious places like RECEIVERS RUNNING INTO EACH OTHER it's time to maybe make some changes. Occam's razor tells you that the plan isn't going to magically coalesce and create a great offense, but rather that it fucking sucks.

Instead of "relaxing and recharging" over the bye week in early November the offense should have been stripping away the stuff that was broken and hammering on the things that work. It wouldn't have taken much more to have clinched a playoff spot by now.
Do we know this is what happened? I'm not doubting you, just honestly curious if there are sources/quotes from BB or assistant coaches that confirm this.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,720
02130

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,358
from the wilds of western ma
This was a bit off the cuff. I don't think they did more rest than was usual but they didn't seem to be putting any extra work in from how the players were talking. I did not do an exhaustive search though.

https://www.patriots.com/news/rest-refocus-and-self-evaluation-top-patriots-bye-week-priorities
Yeah, that reads a little more like it in terms of self-scouting and evaluation. It's pretty hard to do a major repair job mid season, but I hope they did at least scrap some glaring things that weren't working, and at least attempted to emphasize a couple that were. Though the results certainly have not been there either way. Ultimately though, the offense has been dysfunctional going back to the start of camp, and really going back to the experiment of putting Patricia and Judge in charge of it. It's going to take significant staff changes, and an upgrade in player personnel, to truly get it fixed.
 

BigJimEd

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 4, 2002
4,496
But four months later when he's your most productive receiver every time you let him on the field
This seems to be a popular belief but it simply isn't true. Bourne has had several games this year where he did very little with significant snaps.

That's not to say other receivers have done a ton either though.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,348
Their head coach designs and calls the plays, they lost mid-level guys not the top. Shanahan runs that offense top to bottom.
Yep. The Niners offense from a coaching standpoint is what the Patriots defense is. Shanahan is the guy for the Niners offense, and BB is the guy for the Pats defense. Whether they call the plays or not, that's their expertise, and they are top .00000000000001% of the planet at it. They can lose coordinators/coaches on that side of the ball every year, but their head coaches can make up the slack.

The Niners defense is great, with some elite talent in Bosa, Warner and Greenlaw, and getting very good production out of guys like Hufanga, Ebukam, etc. But, I think they've also had a pretty favorable schedule given the offenses they've played. The gave up 44 to the Chiefs, they played well against the Chargers, Dolphins and Seahawks twice (3 of those 4 games at home). The rest of their schedule though, Bears, Rams twice, Bucs, Broncos, Panthers, Falcons, Cardinals, Saints, Commanders hasn't exactly been a murderer's row on that side of the ball.

I still think they are the favorite to come out of the NFC, barring any other major injuries and if Deebo comes back (especially if Hurts isn't Hurts when he gets back), but I think an Eagles/Niners match up in the playoffs could turn into a shootout.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
25,292
This seems to be a popular belief but it simply isn't true. Bourne has had several games this year where he did very little with significant snaps.
at GB: 26 snaps, 3 targets, 2 rec, 23 yards
vs Det: 34 snaps, 1 target, 1 rec, 1 yard
at NYJ: 54 snaps, 0 targets, 0 rec, 0 yards
vs Ind: 48 snaps, 4 targets, 3 rec, 11 yards

Yuck.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
35,514
at GB: 26 snaps, 3 targets, 2 rec, 23 yards
vs Det: 34 snaps, 1 target, 1 rec, 1 yard
at NYJ: 54 snaps, 0 targets, 0 rec, 0 yards
vs Ind: 48 snaps, 4 targets, 3 rec, 11 yards

Yuck.
To me it's seemed like other than the one big game he's been the guy struggling to get open the most. Agholor had drops, but he also gets open decently often (he's the guy Mac struggles to hit in stride most) Jakobi gets open the most, then Parker. When one or both are out there Agholor gets open, without them he gets eaten up by #1 CBs.
 

Jinhocho

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2001
10,306
Durham, NC

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,059
Mansfield MA
Going into game 15, the Pats as an offense had just three 100 yard receiving games, from Agholor in game 2, Parker in game 3, and Meyers in game 5. Zero 100 yard receiving games in games 6 through 14.
To be fair, they didn't have any 100 yard receiving games all year in 2021.

Are we to believe that it is Mac who went into the season thinking "fuck Kendrick Bourne!" and only became willing to throw to him again after halftime? Or is it more likely that the coaches buried Bourne, only turning to him out of a mix of injuries and desperation, only to see Bourne perform exactly the way he did last year?

Mac had plenty to answer for this year but he did not set himself up to fail and then double down on a broken approach until there was basically no alternative available but to resort to throwin the ball to his most impactful receiver from a year ago.
Others have pointed out that Bourne has had plenty of games where he's played quite a bit and not done anything. Overall he's averaging 27 snaps per game this year as opposed to 34 last year, and even that overstates the difference because a) he left the Cleveland game after just 4 snaps and b) the offense as a whole is averaging 3 fewer snaps per game than last year. The perception that he's been stapled to the bench all year is not the reality.

His playing time has been down somewhat, and definitely inconsistent. That's to be expected considering the offense added Parker and Thornton while only subtracting Harry, Wilkerson, and Gunner. Agholor's and Meyers' snaps are down too (largely because of injury in Jakobi's case). The top 2 receivers are Meyers and Parker when healthy, and the third and fourth guys have shifted week-to-week based on game plan and injury.

Bourne's year this year is definitely disappointing, but his 2021 campaign was overrated because of how much garbage time production he had. Over 100 of Bourne's receiving yardage came from Hoyer.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,720
02130
This seems to be a popular belief but it simply isn't true. Bourne has had several games this year where he did very little with significant snaps.

That's not to say other receivers have done a ton either though.
So then my statement "he's been the most productive receiver when on the field" should be amended to "He has been more productive than Agholor and Thornton and should be playing much more." No one would argue he's been great but there is no reason he should be getting just 11 snaps against say las vegas in week 15 when Thornton and Agholor have 60 and 54. Everyone on the offense has had multiple games where they disappeared for various reasons.

I mean, overall:
Meyers 580 snaps, 80 targets, 58 receptions, 2 official rushing attempts (Missed most of one game and all of 3 games with injuries)
Parker 489 snaps, 40 targets, 25 receptions (Missed all of 4 games and all but 1 snap of another with injuries)
Agholor 445 snaps, 51 targets, 31 receptions (Missed one game and was limited in 3 others)
Thornton 434 snaps, 36 targets, 18 receptions, 3 rushing attempts (Missed first 4 games with injury)
Bourne 377 snaps, 41 targets, 30 catches, 5 rushing attempts (No major injuries)
Bourne if we exclude the "one big game": 345 snaps, 32 targets, 24 catches

Ordering by targets / snap:
Meyers 13.7%
Agholor 11.5%
Bourne 10.8%
Bourne excluding last week: 9.3%
Thonton 8.3%
Parker 8.2%

Ordering by receptions / snap:
Meyers 10%
Bourne 8%
Agholor 6.9%
Bourne excluding last week: 6.9% (.01% behind Agholor)
Parker 5.1%
Thornton 4.1%

Ordering by yards receiving / snap:
Meyers 1.25
Bourne 0.99
Parker 0.94
Agholor 0.81
Bourne excluding last week: 0.79
Thornton 0.4

Even if you cherrypick out his best game and don't do the same for everyone else, he's clearly been better than Thornton and Parker.