The 2023 Trade Deadline: Scenarios

Red(s)HawksFan

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Also, Hendricks has a 45.6% groundball rate. This is how he is successful with those peripheral numbers you mention:

View attachment 67344

I don't believe the Red Sox would be a good fit for him.
Bello's doing all right in front of the Sox defense and he's got a higher groundball rate than Hendricks. And a higher average exit velocity as well. Not here to heavily advocate for it, but I can see Hendricks being a good fit if the price is right. Especially if Story and Chang are the primary MI for the bulk of the second half.
 

TFisNEXT

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Is that even an upgrade? They're actually skating by OK with the bullpen starts and Pivetta as a shadow-starter. They have several days off once things get going before August, when presumably one or two of the SPs might be back. I think they ride it out unless they can get a great deal on an actual starter upgrade, which probably doesn't exist. Bloom isn't going to send out anything of value to cover maybe 2-3 starts.
They do need a 5th starter until at least one of Houck/Whitlock/Sale are healthy. Right now the rotation is:

Bello, Paxton, Crawford, Pivetta (after opener), bullpen game (or random AAA starter)

I wouldn't overpay for Hendricks for that role FWIW....but getting another Pivetta-esque filler would be useful in the short term.
 

LogansDad

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Bello's doing all right in front of the Sox defense and he's got a higher groundball rate than Hendricks. And a higher average exit velocity as well. Not here to heavily advocate for it, but I can see Hendricks being a good fit if the price is right. Especially if Story and Chang are the primary MI for the bulk of the second half.
That's totally fair. I do feel like Bello has a little bit more ability to dial it up and make his own outs (via K) than Hendricks, but it may not be as bad a fit as I originally thought.

I definitely wouldn't give up too much for him, though.
 

chrisfont9

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They do need a 5th starter until at least one of Houck/Whitlock/Sale are healthy. Right now the rotation is:

Bello, Paxton, Crawford, Pivetta (after opener), bullpen game (or random AAA starter)

I wouldn't overpay for Hendricks for that role FWIW....but getting another Pivetta-esque filler would be useful in the short term.
Sale is ahead of Houck by two weeks right now... Not very encouraging. But! A week ago some supposedly reputable folks were speculating that Whitlock could miss as little as one start. tbd...
 

grimshaw

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Well not literally, no.
The value of Paxton for the rest of the year and ability to offer a QO weighed against the value of whatever he brings back in a trade and it’s not clear at all, to me at least, that he needs to be moved.
I don't agree with this but I'd want a closer to big league guy anyhow.

The camp who want the playoffs this year for sure understandably would want to keep Paxton. I'm more interested in building up the farm. They have made huge strides, and I think they will be very competitive with and pass at least the Jays and Yanks over the next few seasons, but the sheer amount of cheap guys hitting their prime and still coming up in the pipeline on the Rays and O's side of things dwarfs what the Sox have. This isn't even taking into account competing with sleeping giants like the Guardians who have tons of young talent nearly ready as well as the Mariners, and then you also have the Astros who have a huge window and more coming, and the Rangers who are built to win now as well.

There aren't many opportunities to get the chance at a good prospect so I prefer they go that route.
 

TFisNEXT

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Sale is ahead of Houck by two weeks right now... Not very encouraging. But! A week ago some supposedly reputable folks were speculating that Whitlock could miss as little as one start. tbd...
Yeah it sounds like Whitlock will be the first arm back. He's also been the worst of the 3 in the rotation, though similar to Houck, he's been a bit unlucky with an xERA and FIP significantly lower than his actual ERA. He would certainly be an improvement over a AAA/opener bullpen game that is currently occupying the 5th spot behind the Pivetta-opener slot.

I'm still worried about Whitlock as a starter though. His velocity is down a peg this year on top of the injury concerns. I wonder if he would be better suited to piggyback an opener too like Pivetta in the short term here assuming he's back within 10 days. I think longer term, they are probably going to want to revert to using him like they did in 2021.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Well not literally, no.


I don't agree with this but I'd want a closer to big league guy anyhow.

The camp who want the playoffs this year for sure understandably would want to keep Paxton. I'm more interested in building up the farm. They have made huge strides, and I think they will be very competitive with and pass at least the Jays and Yanks over the next few seasons, but the sheer amount of cheap guys hitting their prime and still coming up in the pipeline on the Rays and O's side of things dwarfs what the Sox have. This isn't even taking into account competing with sleeping giants like the Guardians who have tons of young talent nearly ready as well as the Mariners, and then you also have the Astros who have a huge window and more coming, and the Rangers who are built to win now as well.

There aren't many opportunities to get the chance at a good prospect so I prefer they go that route.
Again, you'd have to get a prospect who is extremely good and close to producing at the majors league to justify it. Basically you'd be trading" Paxton + 40 man spot + top 50 '24 pick" for a "Prospect(s)." They'd need to be very high floor.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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And you’d probably want it to be a pitcher, since that is where the team has short term and long term needs. But a team that has a high floor major league ready pitcher to trade isn’t going to need Paxton, most likely.

I guess you could conceivably get a RF or something if you had a plan to flip Verdugo for a pitcher? But hard to find a match for all this.
 

grimshaw

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Again, you'd have to get a prospect who is extremely good and close to producing at the majors league to justify it. Basically you'd be trading" Paxton + 40 man spot + top 50 '24 pick" for a "Prospect(s)." They'd need to be very high floor.
I guess when E-Rod gets you Roman Anthony I can't really argue
 

Ronnie_Dobbs

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Has there been any talk about going with a strict 4 days rest for the next couple weeks from the FO or Cora?

If they stick to a 4 days off between starts until July 31, they will only have to have 4 "bullpen/opener" games - two of which will be vs OAK, 1 vs NYM, 1 vs SFG (of which we can use Pivetta on three of those). If we get one starter (Whitlock) back anywhere in there or soon thereafter we could still be in pretty good shape to not have to move anyone by the deadline and still have a strong chance to make the WC.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Has there been any talk about going with a strict 4 days rest for the next couple weeks from the FO or Cora?

If they stick to a 4 days off between starts until July 31, they will only have to have 4 "bullpen/opener" games - two of which will be vs OAK, 1 vs NYM, 1 vs SFG (of which we can use Pivetta on three of those). If we get one starter (Whitlock) back anywhere in there or soon thereafter we could still be in pretty good shape to not have to move anyone by the deadline and still have a strong chance to make the WC.
I'm sure that's the plan. Keep the three starters on as close to regular rest and use whatever off-days they have to limit the need for the opener/bullpen strategy. In fact, I think doing the back to back opener/bullpen games in Oakland is how they will be able to maximize their starters' usage through the Giants series. Sequencing the first five games any other way might force them into another bullpen game.
 

The Gray Eagle

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If we're talking about made-up trades, how about if we go for it this season and next like this:
Cardinals get:
Triston Casas, Edinson Paulino, Kike Hernandez. Total value: 29.80
Red Sox get:
Jack Flaherty, Paul Goldschmitt. Total value: 24.40

This counts in the Trade Simulator as a minor overpay by the Red Sox.

Flaherty is a rental, Goldschmitt gets 26 million the rest of this year and again next year.
(Kike is only in there to save us some money and to avoid the awkwardness of us having to DFA him. Let someone else do it. They could also try to flip him if they can.)

This will not happen in real life for many reasons.
The Cardinals don't seem like the kind of team to value Casas that much, and they would probably want to split Flaherty and Goldschmitt into different deals to maximize the return. This would be a very unpopular trade in St. Louis.
Even with Kike in the deal, it would still put the Red Sox over the tax line, etc.

But it's kind of fun to imagine though.
Flaherty has thrown 12.2 shutout innings in his last 2 starts, and RH Goldschmitt would balance and boost the lineup and improve first base defense a lot.

Duran, CF- LH
Story, SS - RH
Devers, 3B- LH
Goldschmitt, 1B- RH
Yoshida, LF- LH
Turner, DH- RH
Verdugo, RF-LH
Arroyo, 2B- RH
Wong, C- RH

Bello, Paxton, Flaherty, Crawford, Sale, Whitlock, Houck

Gitter done, Theo!
 

grimshaw

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Jimmy Herget would be one of the Bloomiest of Bloom moves if they wanted a deal that would cost little.
He was one of the most dominant middle guys in the majors with the Angels last year but is in AAA now and has been awful.
 

JM3

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View: https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/1680270302864089088


For some reason I'm semi-tempted to trade for Patrick Corbin. It seems dumb... but he could be a change of scenery guy who might be tired of all the non-competitive baseball.

The $35m he's owed next year is pretty ridiculous... but the luxury tax salary is $23.3m & I don't care about FSG's $.

His contract is enough underwater that the Nats should eat enough of this year's $ to keep us under the threshold.

& instead of giving up something valuable, there may be a way to do a prospect swap kind of like we did with the Padres last year where we got a couple guys a further away from needing protection for Groome.

Worst case, he'll just be riduculously overpaid next year, but that's ok because we're going over the cap next year anyway.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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What’s the appeal, though? ERA and FIP around 5. Gives up a lot of homers, his K rate is barely over 6. Seems like a worse version of Pivetta to me.
 

JM3

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What’s the appeal, though? ERA and FIP around 5. Gives up a lot of homers, his K rate is barely over 6. Seems like a worse version of Pivetta to me.
He was a Paxton-level pitcher in 2019 sooooo they just do whatever they did there & POOF.

Kidding. Mostly.

He actually pitched 7 innings & allowed 1 run with 6 strikeouts against the Rangers last time out, & he's currently on the paternity list (another Paxton parallel).

The main draw is that it's a creative way to pick up an innings eater for that 5th day because as good as Bello/Paxton have been, as today evidenced, you can't count on them for 7 innings every single time.

Crawford isn't going deep into games. Pivetta has been fine as a bulk guy but won't be infallible. & having a whole nother bullpen game on top of that seems like a lot.

The underlying #s aren't great, but I think there is still a pitcher in there if you give him a chance in a competitive situation. & unlike the other mediocre pitchers available, the primary cost should be $ & not prospects.
 

chawson

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He was a Paxton-level pitcher in 2019 sooooo they just do whatever they did there & POOF.

Kidding. Mostly.

He actually pitched 7 innings & allowed 1 run with 6 strikeouts against the Rangers last time out, & he's currently on the paternity list (another Paxton parallel).

The main draw is that it's a creative way to pick up an innings eater for that 5th day because as good as Bello/Paxton have been, as today evidenced, you can't count on them for 7 innings every single time.

Crawford isn't going deep into games. Pivetta has been fine as a bulk guy but won't be infallible. & having a whole nother bullpen game on top of that seems like a lot.

The underlying #s aren't great, but I think there is still a pitcher in there if you give him a chance in a competitive situation. & unlike the other mediocre pitchers available, the primary cost should be $ & not prospects.
Depends on how cheap but I think the Sox could eke some value out of a guy like that. His numbers first time through the order are decent (3.82 FIP this year; 3.93 FIP last) and he’s still solid against LHB (.270 wOBA in ‘23). Keibert Ruiz is also the game’s worst framer among catchers, so changing scenes wouldn’t hurt him there either.

OTOH, if he’s essentially a LH MIRP, he may be a little redundant to what we’ve got with Murphy and Walter.

I think if we take on a high-dollar rental starter for extremely little I may prefer Lynn, who’d pair well with a lefty opener. But I’m hoping for Flaherty as a Eovaldi-redux situation (rental + re-sign).
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Corbin’s HR rates the last four years are 1.4, 1.9, 1.6, and 1.4, and he’s barely striking out 6 per 9. I don’t see how he can be useful given those numbers. When he was good, he was striking out 10-11 per. He does average 5.7 innings per start, but they are mediocre innings.
 

JM3

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Depends on how cheap but I think the Sox could eke some value out of a guy like that. His numbers first time through the order are decent (3.82 FIP this year; 3.93 FIP last) and he’s still solid against LHB (.270 wOBA in ‘23). Keibert Ruiz is also the game’s worst framer among catchers, so changing scenes wouldn’t hurt him there either.

OTOH, if he’s essentially a LH MIRP, he may be a little redundant to what we’ve got with Murphy and Walter.

I think if we take on a high-dollar rental starter for extremely little I may prefer Lynn, who’d pair well with a lefty opener. But I’m hoping for Flaherty as a Eovaldi-redux situation (rental + re-sign).
I don't know that Walter is really ready to be a guy right now (or maybe ever), & he may be someone you could move for value & to clear up a 40-man spot.

I like Murphy, but they aren't really trying to use him in a bulk role right now & they need a guy who can give them real innings.

I assume Lynn will come with some kind of cost as he's an expiring & it's easier to see a good pitcher in there because of the sub-4 xFIP. I just don't trust the guy at all. Would rather throw Bear Claw out there than trade anything of value for Lynn.

Flaherty's walk rates are alarming, but he could be fun if the price is right.
 

JM3

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Corbin’s HR rates the last four years are 1.4, 1.9, 1.6, and 1.4, and he’s barely striking out 6 per 9. I don’t see how he can be useful given those numbers. When he was good, he was striking out 10-11 per. He does average 5.7 innings per start, but they are mediocre innings.
His pitches seem to be quite similar in terms of speed & movement to when he was a really good pitcher so I'm thinking there is a certain amount of lack of focus in there & that there will be a few tweaks to his repertoire & pitch patterns a smart/motivated team could make.

Just seems like an interesting buy super low option when everyone else in the starting pitcher market will be extremely expensive, with the only cost being FSG's $ in a year they're always going to be over the threshold regardless ('24).

& if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
 

JM3

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The thing with Paxton was mostly him being healthy. Was Corbin's struggles health related at all?
Is the emotional injury of playing with the Nationals any different or less than the physical injury of physical injury? lol

But yeah, it would be a flier & I don't know enough about Patrick Corbin the dude to know if it's a challenge he would relish & a circumstance he would thrive in, & you would have to have some feel for that before making the commitment.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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I'm with @Petagine in a Bottle, no thanks on Corbin. He's just not a good pitcher anymore and that contract for next season? No thank you.

The Sox can do better.

If they want a lefty who can go 5 or 6 innings, call up the Pirates and bring Rich Hill back. And he won't cost you $35 million next year.
 

nvalvo

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Any deal for Corbin would be something akin to the Hosmer trade: we get Corbin and 98% of his salary, maybe some prospects change hands, and we DFA him after he’s served his use.
 

JM3

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I'm with @Petagine in a Bottle, no thanks on Corbin. He's just not a good pitcher anymore and that contract for next season? No thank you.

The Sox can do better.

If they want a lefty who can go 5 or 6 innings, call up the Pirates and bring Rich Hill back. And he won't cost you $35 million next year.
Costing $35m in cash next year is a feature, not a bug.

Corbin is a more talented pitcher with significantly better underlying stuff than Hill, who should cost absolutely nothing to acquire, & should be fully subsidized for this season to help them stay under the threshold this year.

& if he actually turns it around enough to be a quality part of the rotation next year? Amazing. $23.3m against the threshold in a year you plan to be a taxpayer anyway is literally just John Henry's money, & even more so with the overage that isn't part of the CBT calculation.

Getting predictably poor pitching from a guy who pitches worse as the season goes on & giving up something for that privilege is not something that interests me.
 

JM3

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I'm totally 100% fine if they have no interest in Corbin fwiw. & it's quite possible he's happy just getting paid to hangout & pitch every 5 days for the Nationals.

Just think it would be an interesting way to buy low & flex their financial muscles while keeping every interesting prospect.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Why do we think Corbin is talented? His FIP the last three years is 5.41, 4.83, 4.92. K rate has gone from 11.1 in 2018 to 6.1 this year. His last four years is a combined -1.9 bWAR. His LD % given up this year is 45%, 7 percentage points higher than league average. He was a good pitcher- in 2019. I see no evidence he’s any good now or likely to be next year.
 

OCD SS

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Costing $35m in cash next year is a feature, not a bug.
… $23.3m against the threshold in a year you plan to be a taxpayer anyway is literally just John Henry's money, & even more so with the overage that isn't part of the CBT calculation.
that loophole was closed, CBT numbers recalculate to actual salary owed when the player is traded.
 

JM3

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Why do we think Corbin is talented? His FIP the last three years is 5.41, 4.83, 4.92. K rate has gone from 11.1 in 2018 to 6.1 this year. His last four years is a combined -1.9 bWAR. His LD % given up this year is 45%, 7 percentage points higher than league average. He was a good pitcher- in 2019. I see no evidence he’s any good now or likely to be next year.
Because his pitches are the same pitches as when he was striking out 11.1/9 in '18 & 10.6/9 in '19.

'18
Sinker - 90.8 mph, 22.2' drop

'19
Sinker - 91.8 mph, 21.5' drop

'23
Sinker - 92.1 mph, 22.0' drop

I was going to do all of it, but easier to just link the Savant page:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/patrick-corbin-571578?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

He turns 34 in 4 days & is pitching basically the same pitches as when he was crushing it.
 

JM3

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We paid Hosmer the minimum, and the Padres paid the rest. Something like that.
The Nationals have no CBT problems & 0 incentive to pay Corbin's full freight to pitch average baseball somewhere else.

But it's true that the lack of inventive for them to eat a ton of salary makes the incentives not line up perfectly.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Because his pitches are the same pitches as when he was striking out 11.1/9 in '18 & 10.6/9 in '19.

'18
Sinker - 90.8 mph, 22.2' drop

'19
Sinker - 91.8 mph, 21.5' drop

'23
Sinker - 92.1 mph, 22.0' drop

I was going to do all of it, but easier to just link the Savant page:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/patrick-corbin-571578?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

He turns 34 in 4 days & is pitching basically the same pitches as when he was crushing it.
Except something is different because he's getting entirely shitty and progressively worse results with those same pitches and it's not attributable to the team around him.

And if the Nats aren't paying a good chunk of his remaining salary, it becomes quite an expensive gamble that he can be "fixed". There are better pitchers out there. Shit, the Sox might just have one already that they've banished to the bullpen.
 

Average Game James

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Because his pitches are the same pitches as when he was striking out 11.1/9 in '18 & 10.6/9 in '19.

'18
Sinker - 90.8 mph, 22.2' drop

'19
Sinker - 91.8 mph, 21.5' drop

'23
Sinker - 92.1 mph, 22.0' drop

I was going to do all of it, but easier to just link the Savant page:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/patrick-corbin-571578?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

He turns 34 in 4 days & is pitching basically the same pitches as when he was crushing it.
So one thing that stood out to me is that while the movement is basically the same, his spin rates are all down - fastball and sinker are both -8% compared to 2018, for example. Something is clearly different about the pitches if they are spinning less but breaking the same amount.

edit: just closing the loop, change up spin in also -8%, slider is -11%
 

JM3

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Except something is different because he's getting entirely shitty and progressively worse results with those same pitches and it's not attributable to the team around him.

And if the Nats aren't paying a good chunk of his remaining salary, it becomes quite an expensive gamble that he can be "fixed". There are better pitchers out there. Shit, the Sox might just have one already that they've banished to the bullpen.
I mean, if you're motivated by winning, it's probably hard to go out there & be at your best when your team is averaging 60 wins per season.

Not really sure where you're getting worse results from, unless you mean worse underlying metrics, because his ERA the last 3 years have been 5.82, 6.31 & now 4.89. His xFIP & K/rate are a bit worse than last year.

I don't think Kluber is better than Corbin...

& yeah, it would be an expensive gamble - but I'd rather gamble with Henry's $ than our prospects.

I'm also perfectly fine staying pat & seeing if they can't hold down the fort until they get some guys back or if Bear Claw can be the length guy for the 5th slot.

Corbin has been a 1.0 fWAR pitcher this year, & I think there's a better pitcher in there somewhere. Would just hate to give up something of actual value for a pitcher who is capped at that level.
 

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JM3

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The way the Red Sox have managed their bullpen all season by bringing up the most fungible guys (Faria, Garza, Scott, Ort, Dermody, etc.) instead of potentially higher leverage arms who might be part of their future who could get involved in a roster crunch makes it pretty clear to me that they don't have much of an interest in pushing their chips in this season.

Same thing with the catcher position with Hamilton/Alfaro.

They seem to be trying to get by this year with an eye toward next year & so a buy/sell deadline which keeps the focus on next year seems like the most likely path as they aren't doing everything possible to maximize their odds every game this year.
 

jose melendez

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I've watched a lot of Nats baseball--thus a lot of Patrick Corbin in the last few years. He's just not good any more. Leaves stuff over the plate, lacks consistency--maybe a flier as a fifth starter, but that's his upside.
 

chawson

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Costing $35m in cash next year is a feature, not a bug.

Corbin is a more talented pitcher with significantly better underlying stuff than Hill, who should cost absolutely nothing to acquire, & should be fully subsidized for this season to help them stay under the threshold this year.

& if he actually turns it around enough to be a quality part of the rotation next year? Amazing. $23.3m against the threshold in a year you plan to be a taxpayer anyway is literally just John Henry's money, & even more so with the overage that isn't part of the CBT calculation.

Getting predictably poor pitching from a guy who pitches worse as the season goes on & giving up something for that privilege is not something that interests me.
Digging around, I’m not really seeing anything encouraging about Corbin’s stuff. In the pitch modeling metrics, his Stuff+ is at 80, which is 105th of 109 starters. He’s always been more or less a 2-pitch starter. His sinker/slider thing still seems useful against lefties but it doesn’t seem especially worth it to me. Possible he can ramp it up playing meaningful games, but I don’t think I’d trust him with bulk innings which is what we’d need.

As you said yourself, they’re likely to make some off-market moves none of us can foresee. (Not to diminish the fun of trade speculation).

One thing Bloom and co. really seem attuned to is pitchers with extreme release points. Specifically, lefties with long horizontal release points (Joely, Diekman, Jacques, Bernardino, Bleier, Sheriff are all in the upper decile here) and righties with long release extensions (Whitlock, Jansen, Brasier, Pivetta, Kelly, Winckowski, Schreiber).

Certainly not the only criteria, but there's enough data to show a trend. As a team, Sox lefties have the longest, most extreme release point extension in all MLB. As a team, Sox right-handed relievers rank second in extension point and fifth overall (Whitlock ranks #1 in all of MLB starters). I'm not sure how predictive all that is, and of course it's not uniformly true among all our pitchers (Crawford especially, with his funky delivery, gets well below-average extension).

Of course, this is a league-wide thing; the Sox are just at the forefront. This SI piece found that one foot of release extension is the equivalent of an extra 1.7 mph of velocity, in the perception of the batter.

All of which to say I think they'll get a guy who either already has an above-average extension point, or can be coached into having a lengthier one (e.g. someone who is pretty tall and "underperforming" their extension). So among name guys, Giolito, Flaherty and Lynn seem like candidates (though to be fair, Corbin is also high up there in this metric). Among the less heralded, maybe Michael Lorenzen or Brady Singer?
 

Yelling At Clouds

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If you believe that the current FO prioritizes pitchers who limit walks (as has been hypothesized elsewhere), then the Cardinal they should pursue is this dude. He's signed for cheap, but he's also 34. BTV says you could get him even up for Matthew Lugo!
 

bosockboy

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If you believe that the current FO prioritizes pitchers who limit walks (as has been hypothesized elsewhere), then the Cardinal they should pursue is this dude. He's signed for cheap, but he's also 34. BTV says you could get him even up for Matthew Lugo!
The Cardinals have him and Matz only under contract next year; they are in really deep shit. They can’t move him.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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The Cardinals have him and Matz only under contract next year; they are in really deep shit. They can’t move him.
Yikes, I did not realize how their situation looks for next year and beyond. They kind of need to nail this deadline, probably have to get something good for Goldy.

EDIT: The Cardinals would probably turn Matthew Lugo into a ~.780 OPS hitter with good defense at all infield positions plus the outfield corners.