The Braves Reported to be Moving to Cobb County

[absintheofmalaise]

The Marietta Daily Journal has reported that the Braves will move to Cobb County for the start of the 2017 season. Cobb is NW of Atlanta. This has also been confirmed by David O'Brien of the AJC. It is supposed to be built NW of the intersection of 285 and 75. For those who don't know, Cobb is the county that abuts Atlanta on the NW side. The lease at Turner runs out at the end of the 2016 season. It has also been reported that the land is under contract, but not set to close until early in 2014. While it would be very convenient for me, this could also just be a negotiating ploy. And of course, there is no MARTA rail service up here.
 
I live in Cobb and I can't wait to see how much this will cost us. If it's anything like the deal the Braves worked out to have their AAA stadium in Gwinnett County, we are fucked. 

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

On quick look this looks like a holdup of the current locale to get cash to extend the lease beyond the current expiration.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Abs beat my thread by one minute!
 
Here's the link to the AJC story. 

 

[jsinger121]

What the fuck is wrong with Turner Field? 20 years and they need a new stadium already?

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

What the fuck is wrong with Turner Field? 20 years and they need a new stadium already?

 
I suspect the team doesn't want to do business with the city's politicians. The opera and ballet left Atlanta for Cobb six years ago. 

 

[Mooch]

I can't even imagine what traffic will be like during the season.   That I-75/285 interchange is already a nightmare.   If the Braves were dead set on moving outside the perimeter, they should have looked at the Doraville/GM site.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

 
 
The deal to move the Atlanta Braves to Cobb County involves $450 million in private financing arranged by the county and another $200 million put up front by the baseball team that first moved to Atlanta in 1965, we’re told.
 
There’s a Wednesday meeting at the state Capitol at which the Braves will discuss the move with Gov. Nathan Deal and Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed.
 
The key question is whether the financing arranged by Cobb County will hold -- and what kind of financing it is. Keep in mind that spending public monies on stadiums has become a volatile topic. This is the primary reason Atlanta is unlikely to actively challenge the move. Remaking the Falcons stadium has drained the well of public good will.
 
Rather, the city would treat the Braves’ departure as an opportunity to remake the area as a year-around, residential/entertainment center. And maybe someday, a place for horses to run.

 
 

 
link

 

[Mooch]

According to the team, Turner Field needed $150 million in renovations and the negotations with the county on renewing the lease stalled out.   I wonder if this ends up being the Braves version of Kraft's Pats-to-Connecticut ploy.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Schuerholz video message to fans. 
 
my take - not a negotiating ploy - they are gone from the city. 

 

[JMDurron]

What the fuck is wrong with Turner Field? 20 years and they need a new stadium already?

The location, I think. Turner Field is already in a bad spot relative to MARTA coverage, and I don't think the team draws as many in-city fans for ticket sales as the Falcons or Hawks do. Bad MARTA access downtown compared to no MARTA access closer to the fans who actually might go to the games seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

Now, I have no fucking idea why the Georgia Dome needs to be replaced, but that is a separate issue.

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Here is a map, released by the Braves, of their season ticket sales. I work just across 75 from where the proposed stadium will be and our traffic is terrible already. They will need a new exits off of 75 onto a 4 lane road (Windy Ridge) and 41 is already a parking lot at rush hour. On the plus side, this location will still give them an Atlanta address! We have one even though my office is in Cobb.
 

 

[bosockboy]

I would imagine 75% or more of their season ticket holders come from the Marietta/Cobb County swath of the metroplex. The city folk don't come regardless so move where the money is.

Looks like I was right.

 

[moondog80]

I'll bet the Marlins owners see this and start drawing up plans for a stadium in suburban Miami.

 

[GBrushTWood]

It almost seems like the equivalent of the Patriots moving from Foxboro to Waltham, in terms of moving near 2 major highways and closer to the affluent parts of town. That's not a great analogy though because the Pats do well with attendance and obviously there are more home games in baseball.
 
It seems like an attendance ploy, which the Braves could use, so that's a plus. I used to live on Windy Ridge Parkway a long time ago, and to me this spot seems pretty solid for a major sports venue. There is tons of shopping/retail/restaurants along Cobb Parkway, Powers Ferry, etc. You've got huge corporations (Coca Cola, GE, etc) with large offices within 5 mins driving distance. There are some residential areas nearby. Similar to Turner Field, I don't believe there is MARTA access anywhere near this new area. I doubt the Braves really give a shit about that though, everybody drives in Atlanta.
 
The real problem as others have mentioned is the traffic. They're gonna turn 285 into a parking lot half the year with this plan. The current roads can't handle the regular work commuters, nevermind 50K+ people packing their way in during the evening commute..

 

[Fred not Lynn]

What surprises me is how well kept a secret this was. You don't really ever have a major announcement like this stay secret until the actual press conference...

 

[PaulinMyrBch]

Abs beat my thread by one minute!
 
Here's the link to the AJC story. 

 
I don't think anyone has a "Boston2024" thread up yet. Thread starter swag be damned.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

Well, I guess I ought to say this in that thread when it gets started instead of this one, but Boston 2024 is barking up the wrong tree. It really should be Boston 2026...

 

[jose melendez]

What a freaking joke.  Providing even a dime's worth of public money to this is an insane screwjob to the taxpayer.  In conclusion, fuck the Braves.

 

[jose melendez]

Awesome, there's a lot of "the neighborhood around Turner is terrible, so they have to move"  So having a stadium where it is now didn't bring economic benefits, but in the new place it totally will.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Awesome, there's a lot of "the neighborhood around Turner is terrible, so they have to move"  So having a stadium where it is now didn't bring economic benefits, but in the new place it totally will.

 
Let me translate the code words for you.  "Improving the fan experience" means "you won't encounter panhandlers when leaving the new ballpark."

 

[TheYaz67]

Even if Turner is not optimal from a parking & traffic standpoint, and the season ticket holder map points to a new location helping to drive better attendance, it still feels disgusting that they build Turner Field and 20 years later it is being abandoned - just seems like an epic waste of money to get so little value from the initial investment.  A "disposable ballpark" for a disposable society.
 
Pretty decent ballpark too - not like it is "falling down", nor is it one of the old soulless concrete bowl monstrosities of the 1960s.  Is there any hope for reuse, or is it just going to get torn down in 5 or 6 years?

 

[Fred not Lynn]

Remember, though, Turner Field wasn't built for the Braves. It was built for the Olympic Games. The real problem is finding a way to build that mega-venue required for the Olympic Games and then realistically optimizing it for later use. In the US we don't need 80,000 seat track and field stadiums...sure, maybe a few kick-ass 15,000 seat ones, though...

 

[absintheofmalaise]

Statement from Atlanta mayor, Kasim Reed, on the Braves leaving.
 

 
 
ATLANTA - The Atlanta Braves are one of the best baseball teams in America, and I wish them well. We have been working very hard with the Braves for a long time, and at the end of the day, there was simply no way the team was going to stay in downtown Atlanta without city taxpayers spending hundreds of millions of dollars to make that happen. It is my understanding that our neighbor, Cobb County, made a strong offer of $450M in public support to the Braves and we are simply unwilling to match that with taxpayer dollars. Given the needs facing our city and the impact of Turner Field stadium on surrounding neighborhoods, that was something I, and many others were unwilling to do. We have been planning for the possibility of this announcement and have already spoken to multiple organizations who are interested in redeveloping the entire Turner Field corridor. Over the next three years, we will be working with our prospective partners to bring residential and business development that is worthy of our city and strengthens our downtown. Those conversations will continue and I am excited about how we use the land that is now Turner Field, to be a tremendous asset for our residents, our city, and our region for years to come.

 

[Time to Mo Vaughn]

Here is a map, released by the Braves, of their season ticket sales. I work just across 75 from where the proposed stadium will be and our traffic is terrible already. They will need a new exits off of 75 onto a 4 lane road (Windy Ridge) and 41 is already a parking lot at rush hour. On the plus side, this location will still give them an Atlanta address! We have one even though my office is in Cobb.
 

 
This is really really cool. I'd love to see this for every sports team in all sports.

 

[OCST]

Even if Turner is not optimal from a parking & traffic standpoint, and the season ticket holder map points to a new location helping to drive better attendance, it still feels disgusting that they build Turner Field and 20 years later it is being abandoned - just seems like an epic waste of money to get so little value from the initial investment.  A "disposable ballpark" for a disposable society.
 
Pretty decent ballpark too - not like it is "falling down", nor is it one of the old soulless concrete bowl monstrosities of the 1960s.  Is there any hope for reuse, or is it just going to get torn down in 5 or 6 years?

 
I agree.  I'm on the opposite side of you in just about all V&N discussions.  The proper size and scope of public investment is the biggest source of political disagreement in this country, and reasonable people can and do disagree about it.
 
I don't think any reasonable person can defend using public money to build the Braves a new stadium, when they have a perfectly good one, even if it is not 100% optimally located (ask the Yankees how well situated they are versus where their season ticket holders live).
 
The articles upthread say something about "private financing arranged by Cobb County."  I have two reactions: first, that sounds an awful lot like some sort of back-room handjob to me, in which some well-connected folks will score mega-deals for land sales and stadium construction; second, if Cobb County can "arrange" "private financing" for a superfluous new ballpark, why can it not do so for other pressing social needs?
 
Whatever your political persuasion, I think it's a god-damned shame that inner cities across the country are in terrible shape, but they all have gleaming new stadiums and arenas.  It's criminal that Detroit is essentially reverting to a feral state, but that it has new stadiums and arenas and is about to get another one. 
 
Let the Braves do this IF they pay for the whole thing.  I have zero confidence that the financing is indeed "private" and won't end up costing the taxpayers a dime.  If I lived in this area, I'd be livid.
 
I love sports, I love watching sports, but I don't think municipal money should be wasted on entertainment palaces, where people making 100K+/year pay top dollar to watch people making $10M/year play kid's games, for the ultimate benefit of billionaires, while cities fall apart.

 

[mauidano]

Disposable stadiums now a days huh?  Turner Field is in the middle of the pack in terms of age; newer than 14 of 29 stadiums.  Been there a few times, my buddy was the winning pitcher in the first official game played there.
 
The map abs provided shows pretty definitive the geographical saturation in the area.  It's a done deal!

 

[Fred not Lynn]

That one pocket of season ticket holders in 30269 are going to be pissed.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Even if Turner is not optimal from a parking & traffic standpoint, and the season ticket holder map points to a new location helping to drive better attendance, it still feels disgusting that they build Turner Field and 20 years later it is being abandoned - just seems like an epic waste of money to get so little value from the initial investment.  A "disposable ballpark" for a disposable society.
 
Pretty decent ballpark too - not like it is "falling down", nor is it one of the old soulless concrete bowl monstrosities of the 1960s.  Is there any hope for reuse, or is it just going to get torn down in 5 or 6 years?

 
Georgia State is about equidistant between Georgia Dome and Turner Field. They only draw 15,000 a game for football at the Georgia Dome. 
 
Also there's been talk about MLS expanding to Atlanta, they have experience retrofitting soccer in baseball stadiums like in Portland. I've seen mock-ups of soccer at the new Falcons stadium, but it will have turf and soccer is better on grass. MLS could probably even join up with Georgia State

 

[absintheofmalaise]

 
Georgia State is about equidistant between Georgia Dome and Turner Field. They only draw 15,000 a game for football at the Georgia Dome. 
 
Also there's been talk about MLS expanding to Atlanta, they have experience retrofitting soccer in baseball stadiums like in Portland. I've seen mock-ups of soccer at the new Falcons stadium, but it will have turf and soccer is better on grass. MLS could probably even join up with Georgia State

Not to defend this move, I am a taxpayer in Cobb County. I understand why they are doing this, but I will be livid if this costs us more money in taxes. They are currently furloughing teachers in the Cobb School system. And there are many other needs besides the school system to invest in.
 
But, back to why i quoted you. One thing to remember here is that the GSU football program is very young. People in Atlanta usually divide into UGA or Georgia Tech camps, plus us outsiders. If the GSU program develops the way they envision, they should be able to draw more fans. They are a relatively new D-1 member and are currently on the "we are losing badly to good teams to finance the program" tour.

 

[gtg807y]

That's a good idea, and is as close as Georgia State could possibly get to having their own "on campus" stadium.
 
I also read some speculation today that the area could be used for pari-mutuel betting, maybe get the ponies in there. Not sure if I see that happening, especially as it is currently illegal in Georgia, but there has been a push to legalize it here recently.

 

[JMDurron]

Awesome, there's a lot of "the neighborhood around Turner is terrible, so they have to move"  So having a stadium where it is now didn't bring economic benefits, but in the new place it totally will.

 
For the record, my response was to the question "Why would the Braves need/want to move?", and not meant to say that I think it's a good deal for the county about to shell out to get them there. 
 
There's nothing wrong with Turner Field (kind of like the Georgia Dome, WTF is going on in Atlanta?), but the location isn't great for the team.  I can understand the team's interest in making the specific move that they are making, in the event that they find a sucker to finance it.  The details of the private financing from Cobb would seem to be the key between this move being just "unnecessary" vs "raping the taxpayers!" 

 

[Dan to Theo to Ben]

It almost seems like the equivalent of the Patriots moving from Foxboro to Waltham, in terms of moving near 2 major highways and closer to the affluent parts of town. That's not a great analogy though because the Pats do well with attendance and obviously there are more home games in baseball.
 
It seems like an attendance ploy, which the Braves could use, so that's a plus. I used to live on Windy Ridge Parkway a long time ago, and to me this spot seems pretty solid for a major sports venue. There is tons of shopping/retail/restaurants along Cobb Parkway, Powers Ferry, etc. You've got huge corporations (Coca Cola, GE, etc) with large offices within 5 mins driving distance. There are some residential areas nearby. Similar to Turner Field, I don't believe there is MARTA access anywhere near this new area. I doubt the Braves really give a shit about that though, everybody drives in Atlanta.
 
The real problem as others have mentioned is the traffic. They're gonna turn 285 into a parking lot half the year with this plan. The current roads can't handle the regular work commuters, nevermind 50K+ people packing their way in during the evening commute..

The better analogy I would think is moving the new Toilet into Saxon Woods Park.  
 
Sure, move to a more affluent area near highways and away from the Bronx.
 
We can only imagine the traffic then.  Would love to see the faces of the Scarsdalites.

 

[Infield Infidel]

Not to defend this move, I am a taxpayer in Cobb County. I understand why they are doing this, but I will be livid if this costs us more money in taxes. They are currently furloughing teachers in the Cobb School system. And there are many other needs besides the school system to invest in.
 
But, back to why i quoted you. One thing to remember here is that the GSU football program is very young. People in Atlanta usually divide into UGA or Georgia Tech camps, plus us outsiders. If the GSU program develops the way they envision, they should be able to draw more fans. They are a relatively new D-1 member and are currently on the "we are losing badly to good teams to finance the program" tour.

 
Oh yeah, absolutely they'll get more in the future. But at most I don't think they could expect more than 25,000-35,000 for SunBelt football, which is still much less than capacity for Turner Field, 49,000. No SunBelt team averages over 30k, most are under 20k, but then again, none of them are in a metropolis like Atlanta. They wouldn't be getting more than 6 home games anytime soon anyway. The nice thing from the school's perspective would be to have their own home and not deal with the Falcons.  But that'd also be the idea for an MLS team as well. 
 
Good god, at 49,000, Turner would be a big stadium to leave empty, and tough to fill for SunBelt football or MLS. Maybe a second Atlanta bowl game?  

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

Where is the money coming from?
 
 
 
 
Cobb deal on Braves relocation up for Nov. 26 vote; Reed to team: 'I wish them well'
 
 

 
The big question of the afternoon is how Cobb County intends to pay for luring the Atlanta Braves out of Turner Field.
 
 Right now, Cobb County Commission Chairman Tim Lee is staying mum. He wouldn't even confirm what is pretty well known -- that the county's share for the $672 million project will be in the neighborhood of $450 million. The financial package won't be finalized for another week or so
 
 But in the 10 minutes allotted us, he threw out a few hints.
 
 The big one: A memorandum of understanding with the Braves is scheduled for presentation to the Cobb County Commission on Nov. 26, at which time the financing package would receive final approval.
Commission-level approval tells you something very important: No countywide referendum is involved, which means no new tax would be levied. So an existing tax would have to be increased -- but one that does not raise taxes for most voters going into an election year.
 
So you have to wonder about the current state of Cobb County's hotel-motel tax. If you're Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed, that would be highly ironic, given his struggles with the Falcons stadium.
 
Lee said the Braves deal first raised its head this summer, when -- with an introduction from state Rep. Earl Ehrhart, R-Powder Springs -- Lee was invited to lunch with a team executive. (No name given.)
 
After the meeting, Lee had the county's economic development team point the Braves to some recommended sites -- including the one they ultimately chose. The deal didn't build a head of steam until four to six weeks ago.
Unlike many involved in the negotiations, Lee said he was not required to sign a confidentiality agreement. "But it was very clear, if any word leaked out, the deal was off," he said.

 

[circus catch]

That one pocket of season ticket holders in 30269 are going to be pissed.

I saw that too.  Somebody needs to do an anthropological study on that group.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

I saw that too.  Somebody needs to do an anthropological study on that group.

 
Peachtree City - close to the airport.  Lots of pilots and airline execs live there. 

 

[8slim]

That map is fascinating, but I can't imagine similar maps for most pro sports franchises would look much different.  Being a season ticket holder necessitates having quite a bit of disposable income, and that's always going to mean the largest base will be in the more affluent parts of a metro area -- meaning, the 'burbs.
 
I'd also imagine most of the time it's residents of those areas that would be most likely to have NIMBY opposition to a stadium or arena.
 
That being said, I've been to Atlanta a handful of times and I can't get a handle on the geography of the area.  To me it is so sprawling that it makes LA seem quaint. 

 

[nattysez]

This is not a political post, just an observation -- is there not much of a tea party presence in Cobb County?  It's not too hard to call finding a way to raise taxes to fund a stadium for a fat-cat baseball team without sending it to a vote of the populace "taxation w/o representation."  Is the love for the Braves (and wanting to get over on Atlanta) really so high that people in Cobb County will go along with this?

 

[LondonSox]

450 million of public money for a wealthy team with a stadium under 20 years old.

This has to stop. It's fucking insane. This is a Dutch auction for taxpayer money (with no public referendum or anything btw). Good for Atlanta for saying poke it.

Corporations already do this for lower tax rates from cities (which makes sense as 50% of a lot is considerably more than zero) but this destroys tax revenue overall nationally and is one more reason everywhere is going broke.

If everyone would just agree that this is bullshit perhaps it would stop.

Buying millionaires their toys to avoid tantrums.

 

[Mooch]

People who are surprised about today's news either haven't lived here in Atlanta very long or just have short memories.   When the initial Turner Field deal was finalized, there were a lot of people who complained about the clause that absolved the Braves from paying for future capital costs after the 20 year lease.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/specials/olympics/0730/oly-stadium-braves.html
 

 
Emma Darnell, a Fulton County commissioner, railed against the deal partly for the Braves' refusal to pay for future capital costs beyond 20 years. "Our experience with Fulton County stadium is that after 20 years, costs rise," she said. "Taxpayers will be exposed."
 

 

[twibnotes]

450 million of public money for a wealthy team with a stadium under 20 years old.

This has to stop. It's fucking insane. This is a Dutch auction for taxpayer money (with no public referendum or anything btw). Good for Atlanta for saying poke it.

Corporations already do this for lower tax rates from cities (which makes sense as 50% of a lot is considerably more than zero) but this destroys tax revenue overall nationally and is one more reason everywhere is going broke.

If everyone would just agree that this is bullshit perhaps it would stop.

Buying millionaires their toys to avoid tantrums.


The decisions to use public funding for the Braves and Falcons' new stadiums looks pretty stupid, not to mention unethical, today, and these decisions will look even worse in future years as more and more municipalities are struggling with debt.

 

[Infield Infidel]

How did Atlanta settle for a 20 year lease on a brand new park? It's even more crazy compared to the Rays getting a 30 year lease on a then 10 year old stadium.

 

[Monbo Jumbo]

How did Atlanta settle for a 20 year lease on a brand new park? It's even more crazy compared to the Rays getting a 30 year lease on a then 10 year old stadium.

 
You have to realize the city isn't out of pocket on building it. The city owns it - the Olympics paid to build it. The city has been cashing rent checks for 20 years - and they HAVEN'T had to pay off construction bonds, as the Olympics paid for that up front.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

The Kingdome lasted 24 years before we blew it up.

 

[Mr Dombey]

As a person who lives in Atlanta (like the actual city limits), what I find most disturbing is the contention that the current park is far from public transportation. It's a mile from Georgia State Marta station, and it's not dangerous. It's like saying you can't walk from Copley Square to Fenway.  I used to bike from my house to the stadium over a dozen times a year (the best thing about the Braves is you can see a ton of games for nothing), and lock my bike up. Nobody stole anything, because there isn't anybody there but cops.  The immediate surrounding area is one big parking lot. A mile to east, is a beautiful gentrified neighborhood filled with yuppies and hipsters. The reason Cobb county people drive is the same reason there isn't a MARTA line going to Cobb in the first place- race. It really isn't nuanced.  What is also very clear, and has been for quite some time, is that the team is more comfortable marketing the team to the kind of people who live in East Cobb.  Atlanta is the most wildly diverse place I've ever been to, the team just found it easier to sell to one kind of person.

 

[gaelgirl]

The Braves getting a new, taxpayer-funded stadium (even if it's only partially taxpayer-funded) after just 20 years is ridiculous. I cannot believe that cities are still going for this nonsense, especially after the Giants proved that you can successfully build your own stadium. I know nobody *wants* to pay for it on their own, but cities should not be on the hook for a stadium, especially for a team that has demonstrated that they'll abandon a functional stadium that they simply don't like as soon as they can possibly get out.   
 
 

That map is fascinating, but I can't imagine similar maps for most pro sports franchises would look much different.  Being a season ticket holder necessitates having quite a bit of disposable income, and that's always going to mean the largest base will be in the more affluent parts of a metro area -- meaning, the 'burbs.
 
I'd also imagine most of the time it's residents of those areas that would be most likely to have NIMBY opposition to a stadium or arena.
 
That being said, I've been to Atlanta a handful of times and I can't get a handle on the geography of the area.  To me it is so sprawling that it makes LA seem quaint. 

 
The only other thing I've seen similar to this was a Facebook heatmap of Giants, A's, Niners and Raiders fans. It's very imperfect (just people who have liked one of the teams on Facebook), but it's interesting to see. I'll post the baseball ones here: 
 

That's from an ESPN story: http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9787415/facebook-crunches-fan-numbers-san-francisco-espn-magazine
 
And these are from the SF Chronicle: 

 

 

[CaptainLaddie]

That one pocket of season ticket holders in 30269 are going to be pissed.

 

What the hell is that?

 

[Beomoose]

Its funny because I'd just recently been reading a barrage of articles about the increasing urbanization of the US, particularly among younger Americans who don't hold the 50-70s idealized vision of the Suburbs. Now the team in 9th largest city in America is moving to the Suburbs. 

The Kingdome lasted 24 years before we blew it up.

The Kingdome was a huge piece of shit, though. Turner has eccentricities but has never struck me as particularly bad. 

 

[Hoplite]

 
What the hell is that?

 
Peachtree City, where everyone has the money to buy season tickets and then not go to half the games.

 

[Rough Carrigan]

What a freaking joke.  Providing even a dime's worth of public money to this is an insane screwjob to the taxpayer.  In conclusion, fuck the Braves.

I am completely with you on this.
 
Another thing, Absinthe and others in the area.  The initial, for public consumption, stories about financing say, "Oh don't worry.  It'll be 80% privately financed."
 
Well, I had a little bit of an argument on another site with a Cardinals fan who was saying that essentially the same thing was true about their new park.  The official story, for the dumb, corrupt press and the rubes was that their new park is something like 80% privately financed.  BUT, if you dug a little deeper you found that the Cardinals are getting huge cuts in their property tax and ticket taxes for the next 25 or 30 years.  The upshot is that, yes, the Cardinals new park was paid for with around 80% private financing.  But the deal has such big back door returns of money to the Cardinals that they'll end up netting out as having put out 50% or less of the cost of the park.
 
Please watch and see if this same presentation strategy is used in Atlanta.