The Celtics Offseason

[Jed Zeppelin]

They said this on the Athletic NBA podcast too-they identified a bunch of potential targets for the #3 pick plus. OG, Brown, Siakam, etc. I dont think the $$$ work though, and they were talking about adding Nurkic for salary purposes.

I'm a fan of Jaylen, and I like what he does when he's "on." But if Tatum is the clear #1, I wonder if there needs to be more space between your top guy and the #2.


As an aside, I looked at Portland's roster this morning for the first time in a while. Is that where once highly-rated wings go to die? Justice Winslow, Nas Little, Cam Reddish, Kevin Knox....

I've never been on the "they can't play together" bandwagon—which is largely a media concoction anyway—but I do think it is difficult that while Jaylen is a great number 2 he isn't super well-equipped to handle things when Tatum is off the floor. He can't initiate a team offense and the defense takes a dip too. I don't know what the on/off numbers have been in these playoffs but it has felt like real cheek-clenching time anytime you see a lineup without JT. Jaylen always has the potential to go nuclear but at the moment the book is out and well into its 3rd printing on how to defend him in the playoffs. You shouldn't be cringing every time your All-NBA wing attempts to drive into the teeth of the defense, but that is what we've had the last two years.

Basically I think if you had a guy with less explosion but better handle, instincts, and defense, you might have a lower ceiling but perhaps a better fit. I dunno, it's a complicated situation, and the explosion is actually hugely important because aside from JB and TL when he is fit, they are kind of a plodding team. I do think they can win a title with these guys as the top two but the dumb basketball stuff is going to keep killing them.

Ultimately I think Tatum is so good that there are a lot of ways you can rejigger around him—both big and small moves—that won't cost regular season wins but could give a different look/gear for the playoffs.

 

[Toe Nash]

I cannot understand the "can't have 4 coaches in 4 seasons" thing.

The first guy moved upstairs, replaced with a handpicked successor. Turned out he needed some strange, so he was out, replaced with an interim coach because the timing didn't allow for anything else who for some reason they made permanent. Had they not made that decision, they'd use the offseason to do a full coaching search of which CJM would be included. This isn't George Steinbrenner hiring Billy Martin back and forth with the Yankees - it's a business handling some unique business circumstances. The priority is getting the right leader - stability for stability's sake is what weak leaders do. Wyc and Brad should be confident their leadership is plenty to keep continuity while the right day to day decisionmaker is identified.

If the choice is Joe Mazzula's culture or 4 coaches in 4 years, give me the 4 in 4.

We haven't gotten Joe Mazzulla's culture, whatever that means, because he doesn't have any assistants or a real offseason to implement it. We got Ime's culture through most of the offseason and then whatever Joe could do in four weeks before the season started.

If they didn't like Joe they wouldn't have given him an extension and I really doubt one playoff series is going to change that. They will take an offseason to identify and get him help and then you can evaluate him next year.

 

[BaseballJones]

Tatum is a great basketball player.

But…and this is a serious question…does he make players around him better? Butler sure seems to.

 

[Auger34]

I've never been on the "they can't play together" bandwagon—which is largely a media concoction anyway—but I do think it is difficult that while Jaylen is a great number 2 he isn't super well-equipped to handle things when Tatum is off the floor. He can't initiate a team offense and the defense takes a dip too. I don't know what the on/off numbers have been in these playoffs but it has felt like real cheek-clenching time anytime you see a lineup without JT. Jaylen always has the potential to go nuclear but at the moment the book is out and well into its 3rd printing on how to defend him in the playoffs. You shouldn't be cringing every time your All-NBA wing attempts to drive into the teeth of the defense, but that is what we've had the last two years.

Basically I think if you had a guy with less explosion but better handle, instincts, and defense, you might have a lower ceiling but perhaps a better fit. I dunno, it's a complicated situation, and the explosion is actually hugely important because aside from JB and TL when he is fit, they are kind of a plodding team. I do think they can win a title with these guys as the top two but the dumb basketball stuff is going to keep killing them.

Ultimately I think Tatum is so good that there are a lot of ways you can rejigger around him—both big and small moves—that won't cost regular season wins but could give a different look/gear for the playoffs.

It seems like the hallmark of the Tatum/Brown/Smart core is losing focus/turning the ball over at very inopportune times. I really think that they need a hardass on the floor that can light into them when they fuck up. Or someone that can at least get into the other teams face and show some sort of fight
Unfortunately, I don’t know who that player is off the top of my head.

 

[Bunt4aTriple]

Oh 100%, signing Brown to a supermax is a no brainer barring some miracle offseason trade this year. I just wouldn’t assume that means he’s around long term.

Can he be traded now and sign the supermax with the acquiring team? That I don't know.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Tatum is a great basketball player.

But…and this is a serious question…does he make players around him better? Butler sure seems to.

What was Butler doing at 24/25?

 

[RedOctober3829]

Can he be traded now and sign the supermax with the acquiring team? That I don't know.

No he can't. Once he signs the super max you can't trade that player for 1 year.

 

[cheech13]

Throw out the age/contract/value talk on any Brown for Dame trade. Portland is not doing that deal unless Lillard publicly asks to be traded to Boston, which he won’t do. The Blazers would probably do everything else (#3, Simons, maybe Sharpe) but Boston would probably be better off sticking to what they have in that case.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Tatum is a great basketball player.

But…and this is a serious question…does he make players around him better? Butler sure seems to.

How would you have answered that question about Paul Pierce in 2007?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Can he be traded now and sign the supermax with the acquiring team? That I don't know.

No, you can only sign the designated veteran extension if you have been on the same team since your 4th season

 

[NomarsFool]

It seems like the hallmark of the Tatum/Brown/Smart core is losing focus/turning the ball over at very inopportune times. I really think that they need a hardass on the floor that can light into them when they fuck up. Or someone that can at least get into the other teams face and show some sort of fight
Unfortunately, I don’t know who that player is off the top of my head.

JB isn't great at driving into a set offense without losing the ball. That's a weakness he has all game. It's exacerbated a bit in the closing minutes because the game seems to slow down, there are more timeouts, defense typically is more set, refs swallow their whistles, etc., etc.

For Tatum, he's had a few games lately with some incredibly inopportune turnovers. I actually don't really recall that being so much of an issue throughout his career. That part could just be recency bias. Where he has struggled throughout his career is doing iso hero-ball stuff. I think that stems partially from carrying the mantle of the the alpha, and I think it is partly because other teams can leave Smart wide open (and if he's on the court) Rob Williams as well.

 

[Bunt4aTriple]

No he can't. Once he signs the super max you can't trade that player for 1 year.

No, you can only sign the designated veteran extension if you have been on the same team since your 4th season

Which is what I thought. Thanks. So they've got a year to figure this shit out. I'm hopeful.

 

[Jed Zeppelin]

It seems like the hallmark of the Tatum/Brown/Smart core is losing focus/turning the ball over at very inopportune times. I really think that they need a hardass on the floor that can light into them when they fuck up. Or someone that can at least get into the other teams face and show some sort of fight
Unfortunately, I don’t know who that player is off the top of my head.

It's like a Sam Cassell type. It does feel like maybe the guy we need doesn't even have to be that good he just needs to be that guy.

Obviously, Marcus thinks that they already have that guy and that it is Marcus, but he is so often the fuckup ringleader that I'm not sure he is seen as having the gravitas we actually need. Lots of strong silent types behind him. It's an odd dynamic.

But also not super unusual—LeBron was (unfairly, imo) dogged by odd narrative stuff for a long-ass time even after dragging a putrid roster to the Finals as a 22 year old. The weird lefty free throw thing was like 7 years into his career and I remember a lot of like "wtf is he doing kicking it out from a triple team to a wide open Mo Williams, what a coward!"

Edit: As mentioned in a few posts after I started typing and before I hit send, this kind of thing doesn't come naturally, especially for the 1 year guys coming into the league at 18/19/20. The real sweet spot is probably something like age 26-31 where you are still physically elite, have your full NBA man-strength, and a much deeper understanding of the things that only come from years and years of experience (and not just lots of playoff games early in your career—LBJ had plenty under his belt and it didn't make a difference for a while).

The narratives are real until suddenly they aren't and it's not so much a flip being switched as the narrative was probably a bit of bullshit to begin with. Like, I don't think this team would be seen as having leadership issues if they just took better care of the ball, because they quite possible would have already won the title last season.

 

[Strike4]

I wonder how real the leadership thing is...if we're going to try and look at what's missing, it's that this Celtics team (meaning the 2017 on team with this core) has always been kind of waiting for The Leader. Like a Kevin Garnett, a Lebron, a Dirk, a Draymond, etc. That was always one of the missing aspects that supposedly prevented them from winning a championship in years past ("great young core"). I wonder how much that has led to a kind of power vacuum on the team where Tatum is the scorer, JB is vice scorer, Al is veteran stabilizer, Marcus is defensive catalyst - but nobody is the one player who is like "I'm going to fix this". Maybe this thinking has caused the players to stay in their lanes, so to speak, and inhibit any of them from developing into that Leader. It also gives them a convenient means to check out if things are going their way in terms of getting touches or taking blame.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I sort of want to reserve judgment until after the Finals. If the Heat blitz the Nuggets, it kind of would change how I look at the playoffs.

 

[jezza1918]

I wonder how real the leadership thing is...if we're going to try and look at what's missing, it's that this Celtics team (meaning the 2017 on team with this core) has always been kind of waiting for The Leader. Like a Kevin Garnett, a Lebron, a Dirk, a Draymond, etc. That was always one of the missing aspects that supposedly prevented them from winning a championship in years past ("great young core"). I wonder how much that has led to a kind of power vacuum on the team where Tatum is the scorer, JB is vice scorer, Al is veteran stabilizer, Marcus is defensive catalyst - but nobody is the one player who is like "I'm going to fix this". Maybe this thinking has caused the players to stay in their lanes, so to speak, and inhibit any of them from developing into that Leader. It also gives them a convenient means to check out if things are going their way in terms of getting touches or taking blame.

Out of curiosity, does anyone remember what kind of talk there was around Garnett's leadership capabilities in Minnesota? They only really made one postseason run with him there and quite a few first round exits if I recall?
WRT this specific Celts team, part of the reason I'd be ok with moving Smart is I do wonder if that creates an opening for Tatum (or Brown) to say "eff it, this is my team now" and develop into a leader that way. In a positive way, Smart is often regarded as the "heart and soul" of the team from the media and fanbase, so maybe it's tough for one of the Jays to step into that while Smart is still here?

 

[Auger34]

JB isn't great at driving into a set offense without losing the ball. That's a weakness he has all game. It's exacerbated a bit in the closing minutes because the game seems to slow down, there are more timeouts, defense typically is more set, refs swallow their whistles, etc., etc.

For Tatum, he's had a few games lately with some incredibly inopportune turnovers. I actually don't really recall that being so much of an issue throughout his career. That part could just be recency bias. Where he has struggled throughout his career is doing iso hero-ball stuff. I think that stems partially from carrying the mantle of the the alpha, and I think it is partly because other teams can leave Smart wide open (and if he's on the court) Rob Williams as well.

The turnover thing could be recency bias, that's entirely possible. The losing focus and not treasuring each possession is absolutely on all of them

 

[lexrageorge]

This core got tired of Brad, collapsed late under Ime, and has apparently quit on Joe.

Seems to me the players are most to blame here, though I don’t think they will blown it up either. I expect tinkering on the edges (would be fine if Smart/Al are moved or given lesser roles). I doubt there is a home run move to make on the player side.

As far as coaching, honestly the best thing would be Brad coming back (he definitely wants to coach somewhere again) with a newly humbled and engaged core. I doubt that will happen but it’s probably their best option.

Otherwise, I guess go shopping for a veteran coach and hope the 4th time is a charm.

How do we know the bolded? He's well paid as President of Basketball Operations and has not publicly given any indication that he's unhappy in his role. Sounds like a media creation.

 

[Auger34]

It's like a Sam Cassell type. It does feel like maybe the guy we need doesn't even have to be that good he just needs to be that guy.

Obviously, Marcus thinks that they already have that guy and that it is Marcus, but he is so often the fuckup ringleader that I'm not sure he is seen as having the gravitas we actually need. Lots of strong silent types behind him. It's an odd dynamic.

But also not super unusual—LeBron was (unfairly, imo) dogged by odd narrative stuff for a long-ass time even after dragging a putrid roster to the Finals as a 22 year old. The weird lefty free throw thing was like 7 years into his career and I remember a lot of like "wtf is he doing kicking it out from a triple team to a wide open Mo Williams, what a coward!"

Edit: As mentioned in a few posts after I started typing and before I hit send, this kind of thing doesn't come naturally, especially for the 1 year guys coming into the league at 18/19/20. The real sweet spot is probably something like age 26-31 where you are still physically elite, have your full NBA man-strength, and a much deeper understanding of the things that only come from years and years of experience (and not just lots of playoff games early in your career—LBJ had plenty under his belt and it didn't make a difference for a while).

The narratives are real until suddenly they aren't and it's not so much a flip being switched as the narrative was probably a bit of bullshit to begin with. Like, I don't think this team would be seen as having leadership issues if they just took better care of the ball, because they quite possible would have already won the title last season.

The obvious one to me is PJ Tucker. He seems to have a lot of gravitas and doesn't take any shit from anyone on the court. I can't imagine him letting Butler just clown the entire team up and down the court (pointing at people after he hits a 3, doing the Al timeout thing, really just trying to make the Celtics look as bad as possible).

As you said, I don't think this guy needs to be a starter even. He just needs to be solidly in the rotation and have the right personality....(and it's still tough to find an obvious fit.)

 

[teddykgb]

Why on earth would we want PJ Tucker and his useless non spacing when we just beat a team by largely ignoring him and he wasn’t any more able to get them to toughen up and not blow the final 2 games of a series?

 

[kazuneko]

We haven't gotten Joe Mazzulla's culture, whatever that means, because he doesn't have any assistants or a real offseason to implement it. We got Ime's culture through most of the offseason and then whatever Joe could do in four weeks before the season started.

If they didn't like Joe they wouldn't have given him an extension and I really doubt one playoff series is going to change that. They will take an offseason to identify and get him help and then you can evaluate him next year.

That sounds plausible but only because Brad “nicest boss ever” Stevens is making the decisions. And while I get Brad probably doesn’t get too pulled into the “blame the coach for everything “ game, this is not the time for him to make a stand against it. The Boston fan base and more importantly the local sports media, will never accept keeping with Mazzulla after the Miami fiasco. Joe already has a contentious relationship with the media, how will it be when he’s facing a press corps that is universally calling for his head and picking apart each of his decisions like every game is game 7 of the Finals? Every bad stretch will lead to ever louder calls for his axing. Fans will start to get hostile.
Keeping Joe is just not realistic - not in this town anyway. And if it was the clear cut right move than maybe you could push through that anyway, but it simply isn’t. Mazzulla really has looked overmatched and teams in NBA championship windows really shouldn’t be led by guys learning on the job. Whatever else needs to happen this offseason, Joe has to go, and I hope Brad understands this.

 

[Ed Hillel]

Tatum is a great basketball player.

But…and this is a serious question…does he make players around him better? Butler sure seems to.

Absolutely yes. Tatum is very good at distributing the ball and keeping the offense moving, most particularly finding the right guy when he gets doubled. He also words hard on defense at a pretty consistent level and, to the extent others do not, that's on them not following his example. White has gotten a lot better playing alongside Tatum, for example. Brown is a very good scorer, but he's a black hole on offense and the defensive effort is honestly pretty bad to mediocre overall all things considered. When people try to say Brown is better or the gap between them is small, it drives me nuts. These people don't actually watch Celtics games, just highlights of who scored most on any given night.

 

[NomarsFool]

How do we know the bolded? He's well paid as President of Basketball Operations and has not publicly given any indication that he's unhappy in his role. Sounds like a media creation.

IIRC, he has talked about wanting to coach again someday.

 

[bosockboy]

IIRC, he has talked about wanting to coach again someday.

I know he turned down a federal reserve from IU.

 

[Auger34]

Why on earth would we want PJ Tucker and his useless non spacing when we just beat a team by largely ignoring him and he wasn’t any more able to get them to toughen up and not blow the final 2 games of a series?

honestly, I think Harden is too far gone for anyone to help. And I tend to think that Embiid’s issues are more physical (conditioning, ability to stay healthy) than mental.

It was just an idea of a player, the Sixers aren’t going to give him away and I don’t think the Sixers and Celtics match up on a trade.

Plus Tucker would be in a much less important role here than he is in Philly. I think he’d basically be the 8th man and more of a regular season option to limit TL and Al’s minutes

 

[nighthob]

Someone like Donovan Mitchell for Jaylen would make a lot more sense for both teams, but I doubt Jaylen would re-sign in Cleveland either.

It might make sense for Cleveland, but not Boston. Evan Mobley and filler makes sense for Boston. And the Cavs might be willing to risk it based on teaming Mitchell and Brown.

 

[Coachster]

I didn't know I felt this way till I started writing this, but my problem is with Joe.

I'll start by saying that I don't understand the NBA, and especially what happens in practice. In college, practice is where things happen. You teach individual skills, you teach team offense and defense, and you work against opponent game plans so you'll be ready to beat anybody.

This Celtics team looks like they've never seen a 2-3 zone EVER and are completely gobsmacked by it. When we come down the floor in transition there are usually four Heat guys within ten feet of the top of the key. We can't enter from there and drive, but we keep trying and that's when Jalen and company keep committing turnovers. Fellas, it's not open, but a pass to the wing and a cut would be.

Who is planning our offense? Joe has no experience, Stoudamire is gone, and the guys left to do the work obviously don't know what they are doing, can't change things up on the fly and seem to just let the players figure it out.

Don't even get me started on the defensive philosophy, which is just garbage.

We need to change out Joe, but more importantly, we need to hire an entire staff who have the ability to implement game strategies that have to be bought into by the fellas. If we don't, it'll always look like this ISO take-turns bullshit on offense and no-plan-at-all on D.

 

[Euclis20]

Absolutely yes. Tatum is very good at distributing the ball and keeping the offense moving, most particularly finding the right guy when he gets doubled. He also words hard on defense at a pretty consistent level and, to the extent others do not, that's on them not following his example. White has gotten a lot better playing alongside Tatum, for example. Brown is a very good scorer, but he's a black hole on offense and the defensive effort is honestly pretty bad to mediocre overall all things considered. When people try to say Brown is better or the gap between them is small, it drives me nuts. These people don't actually watch Celtics games, just highlights of who scored most on any given night.

Ditto. When both guys are on Brown can certainly look more decisive, in part because he makes his moves faster (gets the ball and immediately goes) and in part because he just has fewer decisions to make (passes usually aren't in his decision making tree when he drives). Additionally, what Tatum does with length and footwork Brown tends to do with elite athleticism and brute strength, and the latter can look more impressive. Finally, anyone who listens so the talking heads or only focuses on the ball when Boston is on defense might be under the impression that Brown is just as good or better than Tatum defensively. There is a canyon sized gap between the two on defense that just isn't immediately obvious if you aren't looking for it.

 

[radsoxfan]

How do we know the bolded? He's well paid as President of Basketball Operations and has not publicly given any indication that he's unhappy in his role. Sounds like a media creation.

He’s been pretty clear in interviews that he still misses coaching and hasn’t closed the book on that.

I think he felt some obligation to the Celtics more than he actually wanted to leave coaching in the first place.

I’d be shocked if he never coaches again.

 

[Auger34]

Absolutely yes. Tatum is very good at distributing the ball and keeping the offense moving, most particularly finding the right guy when he gets doubled. He also words hard on defense at a pretty consistent level and, to the extent others do not, that's on them not following his example. White has gotten a lot better playing alongside Tatum, for example. Brown is a very good scorer, but he's a black hole on offense and the defensive effort is honestly pretty bad to mediocre overall all things considered. When people try to say Brown is better or the gap between them is small, it drives me nuts. These people don't actually watch Celtics games, just highlights of who scored most on any given night.

I don’t think I’d attribute any of Derrick Whites growth as a player just to Jayson Tatum.

Tatum does make other players better and he’s a very good off ball defender. Because this was brought up by the OP, I don’t know if it’s age, focus, lack of a go to move or what..but I don’t think Tatum could do what Butler is doing in this series. That’s not much of a knock because there really aren’t many players period that could do what Butler is doing in this series.

 

[BaseballJones]

How would you have answered that question about Paul Pierce in 2007?

I didn’t think Pierce did that. But they added two hall of fame players and that got them over the hump.

So yeah, let’s hope that they add a couple of hall of fame players!

 

[lexrageorge]

Tatum is a great basketball player.

But…and this is a serious question…does he make players around him better? Butler sure seems to.

Tatum is really good at drawing double teams and passing out of them. He needs some pure shooters to pass to, IMO; instead he has had Grant Williams and Marcus Smart and a cooked Al Horford.

 

[lovegtm]

Tatum is really good at drawing double teams and passing out of them. He needs some pure shooters to pass to, IMO; instead he has had Grant Williams and Marcus Smart and a cooked Al Horford.

Between that and the small Heat guards, this is why I thought that Mazzulla's idea to go PP in game 1 actually made a lot of sense. They just don't have anywhere near the defensive intensity to not have PP get destroyed on switches, or the offensive intensity to find him shots, so it looked worse than it was.

Another example of how one of the most important things in NBA coaching isn't lineup choices per se, but how you get your guys to play connected and with an identity. This is Mazzulla's biggest failing to this point, and Spo's biggest strength. You can only make "adjustments" if you are something to begin with.

 

[NomarsFool]

Between that and the small Heat guards, this is why I thought that Mazzulla's idea to go PP in game 1 actually made a lot of sense.

Except they didn't seem to really use him. 2 shot attempts. So, it makes sense if the strategy is to pass to PP so he can kill them from 3. If there is no strategy to do that, it doesn't make sense. Also, Hauser is about the same on offense and has to be better on D, right?

 

[nighthob]

Boston really needs three point shooting. Two of the draft entries that I’ve been watching tape on are Gonzaga’s Julian Strawther and Tennessee’s Julian Phillips. I hate Strawther’s release point (it’s pretty low). But he has such absurd shooting range that it might not matter (I’ve seen him hit nothing but net from 32’). He could well be there at 35. As could Phillips. JP has more upside as he can create his own shot. But he isn’t a bad catch & shoot guy. He’s hopeless, though, shooting treys off the bounce. And he’s best shooting from the corners, above the break he can be really streaky (guide hand shooter). Phillips is the better defensive prospect of the two, overall I think I’d rather have Strawther.

 

[BaseballJones]

Boston has a ton of quality three point shooting.

NBA Avg is .361

Horford: .446
Brogdon: .444
G Will: .395
Hauser: .418
Pritchard: .364
White: .381
Muscala: .385

Unfortunately, three of their worst shooters from deep - Tatum (.350), Brown (.335) and Smart (.336) - take the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd most threes on the team.

And some of their best shooters have glaring weaknesses that make them nearly unplayable in the playoffs. Yet Miami does it with Robinson and (before getting hurt) Herro. So they figure it out.

 

[nighthob]

Brogdon was great against Philly. He's been gawdawful against Atlanta and Miami. And when he isn't hitting threes he's not terribly useful (because his defense is pretty bad these days). And despite your surface analysis, the only series where Smart has shot more treys than Brogdon is the first round series, where Marcus shot .385 and Brogdon shot .280. But this goes back to my point, they have a lot of streaky shooters that rely on Tatum's gravity and Brown's drive game to produce wide open shots. They could use a real knockdown shooter or two that won't go through long stretches of .250 shooting.

 

[tims4wins]

Brogdon was great against Philly. He's been gawdawful against Atlanta and Miami. And when he isn't hitting threes he's not terribly useful (because his defense is pretty bad these days). And despite your surface analysis, the only series where Smart has shot more treys than Brogdon is the first round series, where Marcus shot .385 and Brogdon shot .280. But this goes back to my point, they have a lot of streaky shooters that rely on Tatum's gravity and Brown's drive game to produce wide open shots. They could use a real knockdown shooter or two that won't go through long stretches of .250 shooting.

Brogdon is pretty consistent though. I just went through his game log. I calculated the rolling 3 point % for every 4 games. Out of 64 possible 4 game stretches, he shot < 30% in 8 of those, and they really just happened in two chunks, one in late March where he went 2-14 over a 4 game stretch which impacted three sets of 4 game stretches, and another in late December where he went 4 of 20 over 6 games, which impacted four sets of 4 game stretches. The only other 4 game stretch < 30% was the first four games of the year, when he shot 4 of 15.

 

[nighthob]

I mean he was 7/25 agains the Hawks and he's 3/12 against the Heat (again, postseason D is a much different animal than regular season D). And while I agree he's been more consistent than others, when he's not making them he doesn't contribute much else (and I say this as someone that loved the trade and wanted the Celtics to pay someone to take Young and draft Brogdon with #21 in 2016). He has, alas, entered the rapid decline years. It will only get worse from here (and honestly at his salary he's probably not tradeable until the '25 trade deadline).

 

[Slocumb If Ya Got Em]

Larry Bird talked trash, we won. KG talked trash, we won. It took one of the big 3 to talk trash, and win. When it falls to Grant Williams to talk trash it was series over.

 

[sezwho]

I mean he was 7/25 agains the Hawks and he's 3/12 against the Heat (again, postseason D is a much different animal than regular season D). And while I agree he's been more consistent than others, when he's not making them he doesn't contribute much else (and I say this as someone that loved the trade and wanted the Celtics to pay someone to take Young and draft Brogdon with #21 in 2016). He has, alas, entered the rapid decline years. It will only get worse from here (and honestly at his salary he's probably not tradeable until the '25 trade deadline).

w/r/t Brogdon I thought his defense has been pretty disappointing but looked better in game 3 (as good as anything looks in a trashfire). Maybe that interview about ‘the team’ not showing intensity was a bit of a confession. Not over but it got real late real early this series.

 

[kazuneko]

It might make sense for Cleveland, but not Boston. Evan Mobley and filler makes sense for Boston. And the Cavs might be willing to risk it based on teaming Mitchell and Brown.

I actually think Mitchell would be a great match for Boston. He is a deadly scorer and he's fearless, and that very attitude is what's missing with Brown and Tatum. Of course the only way Brown would be available to trade for him would be if he rejects Boston's offer of a super max, which would mean he is going to be picky about where he plays next. That is something that is going to make any team interested wary of trading too much to get him. That said, if Jaylen really does put the Cs in that position, getting back a Donovan Mitchell in return for him would be close to a best case scenario...

 

[Cellar-Door]

I actually think Mitchell would be a great match for Boston. He is a deadly scorer and he's fearless, and that very attitude is what's missing with Brown and Tatum. Of course the only way Brown would be available to trade for him would be if he rejects Boston's offer of a super max, which would mean he is going to be picky about where he plays next. That is something that is going to make any team interested wary of trading too much to get him. That said, if Jaylen really does put the Cs in that position, getting back a Donovan Mitchell in return for him would be close to a best case scenario...

Mitchell is a guy I want no part of if there are other options, he's been around long enough and fallen off a cliff in enough playoffs to say he is what he is... a very weak link defensively against playoff teams and somebody whose offense is good but not elite.

 

[OurF'ingCity]

That sounds plausible but only because Brad “nicest boss ever” Stevens is making the decisions. And while I get Brad probably doesn’t get too pulled into the “blame the coach for everything “ game, this is not the time for him to make a stand against it. The Boston fan base and more importantly the local sports media, will never accept keeping with Mazzulla after the Miami fiasco. Joe already has a contentious relationship with the media, how will it be when he’s facing a press corps that is universally calling for his head and picking apart each of his decisions like every game is game 7 of the Finals? Every bad stretch will lead to ever louder calls for his axing. Fans will start to get hostile.
Keeping Joe is just not realistic - not in this town anyway. And if it was the clear cut right move than maybe you could push through that anyway, but it simply isn’t. Mazzulla really has looked overmatched and teams in NBA championship windows really shouldn’t be led by guys learning on the job. Whatever else needs to happen this offseason, Joe has to go, and I hope Brad understands this.

Who the hell cares what the Boston media thinks? You think that ever pops into someone like Belichick’s mind for ever a second when making decisions?

There are a host of valid reasons why moving on from Mazzula might be the way to go but the thoughts of the Boston media are not on that list.

 

[nighthob]

I actually think Mitchell would be a great match for Boston. He is a deadly scorer and he's fearless, and that very attitude is what's missing with Brown and Tatum. Of course the only way Brown would be available to trade for him would be if he rejects Boston's offer of a super max, which would mean he is going to be picky about where he plays next. That is something that is going to make any team interested wary of trading too much to get him. That said, if Jaylen really does put the Cs in that position, getting back a Donovan Mitchell in return for him would be close to a best case scenario...

Mobley would allow Boston to play an effective two big defense full time while still keeping Al and Rob bubble-wrapped for the postseason. Probably more effectively given his durability. He does need to work on his perimeter game, though, if he wants to fulfill his destiny as KG v2.0.

w/r/t Brogdon I thought his defense has been pretty disappointing but looked better in game 3 (as good as anything looks in a trashfire). Maybe that interview about ‘the team’ not showing intensity was a bit of a confession. Not over but it got real late real early this series.

It’s definitely been disappointing.

 

[NomarsFool]

The Celtics pretty much bubble wrapped Al this season, and it's not like Rob Williams played a lot, either. I'm not really sure how much more Horford can be saved other than holding him out of the first rounds of the playoffs.

Do we think Horford has really played badly this series, with the exception of his inability to hit a 3 point shot (I also feel like he is turning some of those looks down, now)?

As for Williams, I don't know what to make of him right now. He definitely has a lot of energy, and has contributed in a lot of situations. But, I also feel like it's almost like his BBIQ has regressed a bit. He sort of reminds me of rookie Rob Williams head with elder Rob Williams athletic ability (bouncy but not NBA elite bouncy).

 

[ehaz]

Desmond Bane would be a perfect fit on this team. If only they had a chance to draft him.

 

[kazuneko]

Who the hell cares what the Boston media thinks? You think that ever pops into someone like Belichick’s mind for ever a second when making decisions?

There are a host of valid reasons why moving on from Mazzula might be the way to go but the thoughts of the Boston media are not on that list.

As I said, “if it was the clear cut right move then we maybe you could push through that (the media reaction) anyway, but it simply isn’t. Mazzulla really has looked overmatched and teams in NBA championship windows really shouldn’t be led by guys learning on the job.”
But the idea that you can just ignore the media and much of the fan base and that won’t affect the team is silly. Mazzulla has not handled media pressure well and he’s barely gotten a taste of what’s to come if they keep him. It’s an unnecessary distraction and not worth taking on when there are plenty of other good reasons to find a different coach.

 

[Reardon's Beard]

Bring back Doc

 

[PRabbit]

What would Smart fetch in a trade if CBS decided he had to go? Up Whites and Brogdons minutes some, let PP/Davidson fight it out for 3rd/4th guard if the return isn't a guard, or try to get a legit rotational big that a coach can actually count on in the playoffs besides Timelord and Al.

I'm not commenting on Brown because I have no idea what'd he'd get as a return. Mobley and filler sounds like a pipe dream, even if that'd be ideal for roster construction.