The Celtics with Bias

[bigq]

Philly had the No. 1 pick that year and was the second best team in the East that year, behind the Celtics. They had a still frisky Moses Malone and a young Charles Barkley, who was clearly going to be a star. They didn’t want to take Daugherty, because they didn’t think he would fit with Moses, but they didn’t want Bias either, because they didn’t think he’d fit with Barkley. And they didn’t want the Celtics to get Daugherty to replace Parish. So they flipped the pick to Cleveland, who they knew would take Daugherty, for F Roy Hinson. It gave them on paper a pretty good front line, for about an hour, when they traded Moses to Washington for Jeff Ruland, which made absolutely no sense. So instead of rolling through the late 80s with Moses, Barkley and Brad Daugherty they had Roy Hinson, Jeff Ruland (who literally never played for Philly, he was already broken down) and Sir Charles.

The guy Philly traded to the Clippers in 1979 to end up with the 1st pick in 1986 was Jellybean Joe Bryant, journeyman forward and Kobe’s dad. Clips management back then was as bad as Cleveland’s.

Cleveland never should have had Roy Hinson in the first place. When the Gunds bought the team from Ted Stepien, a condition of the sale was that the team could “buy back“ some of the draft picks Stepien had traded away, starting with the 1983 draft. They gave Cleveland the pick before the Celtics, and they took Hinson, which infuriated Red. He had his eye on Hinson the whole time, and instead they ended up with Greg Kite.

Fascinating. Thanks for the education. Moses Malone had turned 30 during a productive 85-86 season and although he had several good seasons following the trade I can understand Philadelphia thinking that he was approaching the back nine of his career and wanting to get a return on a soon to be declining asset while it still had value. As you pointed out unfortunately for Philadelphia the return they got was abysmal. The 76ers packaged Malone, Terry Catledge, a 1986 1st round pick and a 1988 1st round pick for Cliff Robinson (not to be confused with Clifford Robinson) a middling power forward who had previously bounced between 4 teams in 7 seasons and Jeff Ruland an often injured center with two prior all star appearances who played 5 games for the 76ers the next season and then retired.

I can’t remember if Moses Malone forced the trade. Otherwise it is hard to make sense of passing on Daugherty and then trading Malone several weeks later.

 

[Devizier]

I actually wonder if some of the longevity improvements in the league over the last generation can be attributed to declining substance abuse. Or at least declining use of certain substances.

 

[NomarsFool]

I’m curious what the macro numbers say, but I wonder if the overall longevity has actually improved. There are just real outliers like Lebron, but then you also have people like Blake Griffin who were washed up pretty early.

 

[BuellMiller]

I’d combine it with Reggie not dying. Add those two back to back in ‘86 and ‘87 would have redrawn the NBA landscape for 12-15 years.

One question is whether they still would have taken Lewis if Bias had lived. I guess Lewis was more of a long SG and DJ was still getting up there, and Lewis had the Boston connection from playing at NE.
The other question is if KC Jones would have buried him on the bench the same way he did Reggie Lewis (who only really broke out when Bird missed most of 88-89). I guess being pick #2 carries a bit more weight than #23. Too bad we’ll never know…

 

[Eddie Jurak]

One question is whether they still would have taken Lewis if Bias had lived. I guess Lewis was more of a long SG and DJ was still getting up there, and Lewis had the Boston connection from playing at NE.
The other question is if KC Jones would have buried him on the bench the same way he did Reggie Lewis (who only really broke out when Bird missed most of 88-89). I guess being pick #2 carries a bit more weight than #23. Too bad we’ll never know…

I don't think expectations for Lewis were all that high and the Celtics drafted him in part because he was a local kid.

 

[slamminsammya]

I’m curious what the macro numbers say, but I wonder if the overall longevity has actually improved. There are just real outliers like Lebron, but then you also have people like Blake Griffin who were washed up pretty early.

it's not easy to do a comparison without incorporating the way the cost benefit tradeoff has drastically changed as the cap has evolved to make younger cheaper players even more valuable.

that said, I don't think we see LeBron, Durant, curry, paul having the seasons in their 30s they've had two generations ago.

 

[Was (Not Wasdin)]

Fascinating. Thanks for the education. Moses Malone had turned 30 during a productive 85-86 season and although he had several good seasons following the trade I can understand Philadelphia thinking that he was approaching the back nine of his career and wanting to get a return on a soon to be declining asset while it still had value. As you pointed out unfortunately for Philadelphia the return they got was abysmal. The 76ers packaged Malone, Terry Catledge, a 1986 1st round pick and a 1988 1st round pick for Cliff Robinson (not to be confused with Clifford Robinson) a middling power forward who had previously bounced between 4 teams in 7 seasons and Jeff Ruland an often injured center with two prior all star appearances who played 5 games for the 76ers the next season and then retired.

I can’t remember if Moses Malone forced the trade. Otherwise it is hard to make sense of passing on Daugherty and then trading Malone several weeks later.

They didn’t pass on Daugherty and trade Moses later. They did it the same day,

Yet, a year removed from making it to the Eastern Conference Finals and only a couple years removed from winning a title, the Sixers dealt Malone — along with Terry Catledge and two first-round picks — to the Washington Bullets. In return, they got Cliff Robinson and Jeff Ruland.
The Sixers also traded the No. 1 overall pick — that wound up being North Carolina big man Brad Daugherty — to the Cleveland Cavaliers for Roy Hinson.
''It's the most dramatic day of trading in the history of this organization,'' GM Pat Williams said at the time. ''We're far better equipped to deal at a championship level than 24 hours ago.''

Moses didn’t force the trade, and as a Celtics fan, I freakin‘ loved it.

Pat Williams was generally considered a good GM, but he really made some head scratching moves after they won the title in 82-83, with truly one of the best single season teams in NBA history. They hit on Barkley but whiffed on just about everything else, and never could compete with the Celtics, Pistons, etc. after that.

 

[lexrageorge]

I’m curious what the macro numbers say, but I wonder if the overall longevity has actually improved. There are just real outliers like Lebron, but then you also have people like Blake Griffin who were washed up pretty early.

"Back in the day", NBA players as a rule started a decline once the first digit of their age flipped to a 3. Looking at the 1986 Celtics, their ages in their last good season (and final season) follow:

Bird: 34 (35, limited to 40 games)
McHale: 33 (35)
Parish: 38 (43)
Dennis Johnson: 32 (35)
Danny Ainge: 30 (35)

Going back to the 1976 Celtics:

Cowens: 31 (34, but after missing 2 seasons)
JoJo White: 30 (34)
Havlicek: 37 (37, should have had a season with Bird)
Paul Silas: 33 (36)
Charlie Scott: 29 (31)
Don Nelson: 34 (35)

 

[SemperFidelisSox]

The other question is if KC Jones would have buried him on the bench the same way he did Reggie Lewis (who only really broke out when Bird missed most of 88-89). I guess being pick #2 carries a bit more weight than #23. Too bad we’ll never know…

With Bill Walton injured all year, Jones probably doesn’t have much choice but to give Bias playing time.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

With Bill Walton injured all year, Jones probably doesn’t have much choice but to give Bias playing time.

After the starting five, the 86-87 Celtics gave minutes to Jerry Sichting (1,566), Fred Roberts (1,079), Greg Kite (745), Darren Daye (744), Sam Vincent (374), Rick Carlisle (297), Conner Henry (231), Bill Walton (112). I think he would have gotten his opportunities.

 

[TripleOT]

I still remember exactly where I was and how I felt when I heard Bias was dead. I am sure that is true for many of us.

The day after Bias died, my local outside court in Narragansett Rhode Island, which usually would have 10-15 players, was packed with like 60 very sad basketball players, just shooting around at all the hoops, a basketball wake. I remember it like it was yesterday.

 

[TripleOT]

It was thought that Bias would initially fill the vaunted 6th man role that was first held by Havlicek, and later by McHale, who didn’t become a full time starter until his year six, the 1986 season. Bias certainly would have absorbed Fred Roberts and/or Darren Daye’s 1800+ combined minutes.

biased could have played enough minutes to save at least five minutes per game for both Bird and McHale, although texams back then didn’t restrict minutes for stars to keep them fresh for the playoffs. More likely, the Cs would have busted out teams more often in the first half, with Bias lighting up second units, which could have saved some tire thread on The Big Three.

 

[jose melendez]

There was a pump-the-brakes analysis (I can't remember where-- maybe that Bias podcast that came out a few years ago) that proposed James Worthy as a likely comp. Which makes a lot of sense. Top 50-ish all time player, but a far cry from Jordan.


I was 13 years old and volunteering for George Bachrach's congressional campaign in Watertown Sq, if that rings a bell with anyone. Someone said, "he's dead" and everyone sat in stunned silence, licking envelopes and so forth.

One of my first jobs was working for George’s 98 campaign. Great guy.

 

[j-man]

my 02 cents is
1 no bad boys lakers are done early
2 bird and mchale get a extra 2 years
3 bias takes 1 if not 2 champs from mike
5 with bias R lewis D brown D rajia u also give the 94 knicks a tough go

all in all bird gets 3 ex rings 87 89 and 91 or 92

u most likey still get prino but around 2000

atother what if what if u got duncan in 97 or S pip duncan wouild had won 4 or 5 rings for u too