Any doubt at all that Jackson is coming back to try and poach another title? Panic move indeed.
The Evil Empire Revisited: Lakers General thread
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I have to believe that they wouldn't have made this move so suddenly after Buss' vote of confidence yesterday unless they were absolutely sure their #1 target was ready to take over in the next 48 hours. If it was Phil or Sloan, they could have just announced it today, which makes me think it has to be Brian Shaw. The Pacers have a game tonight, so the team or Shaw himself may have wanted him to stick around another day. The Lakers and Pacers probably spent the day working out the contract stuff.
They pretty much excluded a current assistant coach during the Kupchak press conference -- i.e., "remote possibility." Not ruled out, of course, but it'd be a humiliation to Buss, so I don't see it. To me it's as simple as 1 (Phil Jackson) or 2 (Mike D'Antoni) -- agree word for word with what Marc Stein writes here:
http://espn.go.com/n...oaching-options
I have a hard time seeing the Lakers having the legs for D'Antoni's offense, but be fun to watch (and to see them fail).
http://espn.go.com/n...oaching-options
I have a hard time seeing the Lakers having the legs for D'Antoni's offense, but be fun to watch (and to see them fail).
I thought Phil's back was too messed up for him to coach anymore. Maybe a year off and the chance to once again have a stacked hand will bring him back. It would be another chapter in Phil's born on third base thinks he hit triple career.
I am beginning to fucking hate Phil Jackson for no other reason than having the unsurpassed talent of jumping into any bandwagon driven by elite NBA talent only to pretend he's some kind of genious because he wins rings coaching the likes of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
Go coach the Bobcats, Phil. And show us what you can really do.
Go coach the Bobcats, Phil. And show us what you can really do.
It's not just MJ and Kobe, either. It's MJ/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq. I guess you can't blame him for wanting to win, but this move makes pretty clear he's a front-runner. The Lakers are seemingly heading on the down swing, and feel is tired and it's time to retire. Then the Lakers trade for a top five talent, a HOF point guard and, surprise, Phil feels...I'm sure the word will be "rejuvenated."
What is the deal about Jackson not wanting to travel to some road games? What kind of coach is that?
The Celtics tried to coax one more year out of Larry Bird by telling him he'd only have to play home games during the regular season.
I just made the mistake of suggesting to a Lakers fan that Jackson isn't the greatest coach to ever walk the face of the earth and maybe that going from Pippen and Jordan to Kobe and Shaq is padding your stats.
They really do believe that Zen shit.
Crazy.
They really do believe that Zen shit.
Crazy.
I think its due to his physical health problems. I know he had hip issues, I believe a knee replacement recently, and I think he has had back issues and possibly a hip replacement. Basically the NBA travel schedule isnt going to be that great for his body, so I can understand why he is asking for this. I just cant understand why the Lakers would give him the salary he is going to command and he isnt even going to travel to all the road games, thats ridiculous.
You would think 2010 ended all of this nonsense.
It will be interesting to see which of his children Jerry Buss sides with. I dont think it really matters in the long run as long as Kucpchak retains control over personnel moves. Phil is the best option for winning another title or two, but I think they would be more fun to watch under D'Antoni.
Jackson reportedly wants Pippen and Shaw on his staff, with Shaw probably being the head coach for the road games Jakcson isn't able to attend.
Mike Bresnahan ‏@Mike_Bresnahan
Mike D'Antoni signed a four-year deal with the Lakers. Phil Jackson was "asking for the moon," accoring to source familiar w/ the situation.
ESPN -- http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8622773/mike-dantoni-hired-next-coach-los-angeles-lakers-sources-say
Mike D'Antoni signed a four-year deal with the Lakers. Phil Jackson was "asking for the moon," accoring to source familiar w/ the situation.
ESPN -- http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/8622773/mike-dantoni-hired-next-coach-los-angeles-lakers-sources-say
https://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi/status/267863827788468224
Kobe on Bickerstaff: "He's good. He's getting the f--- out of the way."
Stay classy, Kobe
Kobe on Bickerstaff: "He's good. He's getting the f--- out of the way."
Stay classy, Kobe
Wow. Just when I thought they couldn't possibly be any dumber, they go and do something like this.
This is just fantastic. If Phil was asking for everything and they didnt want to be held hostage by a coach who couldnt/wouldnt travel for road games, I agree it wouldnt be a good idea to hire him, but that doesnt mean you should do this.
Danton just isnt going too work out. They basically just hired an offense coordinator as a head coach who puts zero emphasis on defense, offensive teams can win titles but they have to play some defense and Dantoni does not have any interest in doing that. Nash can facilitate his offense, but I am curious about how it will work with Howard and Kobe. Is Howard going to be interested in sprinting up the court non-stop and buy into the 7 seconds or less style? And do Kobe, Gasol and Worldpeace have the speed to do it? I know Kobe has the speed, but I dont know if his knees can sustain that style for a full season.
This is going to be fun to watch.
This is just fantastic. If Phil was asking for everything and they didnt want to be held hostage by a coach who couldnt/wouldnt travel for road games, I agree it wouldnt be a good idea to hire him, but that doesnt mean you should do this.
Danton just isnt going too work out. They basically just hired an offense coordinator as a head coach who puts zero emphasis on defense, offensive teams can win titles but they have to play some defense and Dantoni does not have any interest in doing that. Nash can facilitate his offense, but I am curious about how it will work with Howard and Kobe. Is Howard going to be interested in sprinting up the court non-stop and buy into the 7 seconds or less style? And do Kobe, Gasol and Worldpeace have the speed to do it? I know Kobe has the speed, but I dont know if his knees can sustain that style for a full season.
This is going to be fun to watch.
Didn't see that coming. D'Antoni should be the last coach LA should hire. His highspeed offense is terrible for a team with no bench, and 3 aging starters in world peace, kobe, and Nash. I wouldn't be surprised if 2 out of the 3 have broken down by the time the playoffs arrive. Terrible move, and by terrible I mean great!
The 7 seconds or less thing is a bit of a misinterpretation. That's how D'Antoni ran the system in Phoenix, but in New York it was run at a much slower pace. D'Antoni's offense is really more about spacing than speed. The pick and roll is generally run higher than in most offenses to create space for his point guard, and in the half court can be run on either wing. I expect the Lakers to take some time to adjust to the system, but assuming health, I actually think this is a pretty good fit for them, and it's certainly no less of a fit than the triangle. They have two guards (Kobe and Steve Nash) and two bigs (Gasol and Howard) who have all been very good running the pick and roll in their careers. Jamison is old and pretty useless, but in this system he just became a guy who can sit in the corner and shoot 3's on kick outs, ditto Ron Artest, Jodie Meeks, and Steve Blake. Beyond those guys, their pieces don't really fit, and I have a lot of doubts as to whether Steve Blake can run this system effectively when Nash is on the bench. But I see how this fits, though again, it'll take a while to adjust and they'll have to figure out the right rotations to avoid spacing issues. When the offense is working, defenses are going to have a lot of impossible decisions to make. We all know about Nash's prowess in the pick and roll. But last season Kobe was the second most efficient player in the pick and roll in terms of PPP last year, and Dwight Howard was once one half of the league's leading duo despite the ball handler being Jameer Nelson.
On the defensive end, the Knicks had a top 10 defense in D'Antoni's last year, but that was with Mike Woodson and Tyson Chandler. Before that, D'Antoni's teams had been horrible defensively, but keep in mind that they all featured Amare Stoudemire--without hyperbole the worst defender in the NBA--at center. Dwight Howard will make a huge difference, just as Chandler did in New York.
Edit: Actually, I shouldn't have said those Suns teams were horrible defensively. They weren't. They were completely average, given the pace they played.
Edit 2: Also, didn't realize it until I just looked, but Howard was first in the league in PPP in the pick and roll last season, too.
On the defensive end, the Knicks had a top 10 defense in D'Antoni's last year, but that was with Mike Woodson and Tyson Chandler. Before that, D'Antoni's teams had been horrible defensively, but keep in mind that they all featured Amare Stoudemire--without hyperbole the worst defender in the NBA--at center. Dwight Howard will make a huge difference, just as Chandler did in New York.
Edit: Actually, I shouldn't have said those Suns teams were horrible defensively. They weren't. They were completely average, given the pace they played.
Edit 2: Also, didn't realize it until I just looked, but Howard was first in the league in PPP in the pick and roll last season, too.
Apparently Phil is "stunned", he thought he had it in the bag. The rationales coming out are that he was asking too much and that D'Antoni's system is better, maybe I just see all things Lakers through a Kobe-prism, but I don't particularly buy either. I can't help think that if Kobe wanted Phil, Phil would be the coach.
I don't pretend to know what's going on in Kobe's head, and obviously he's had a successful relationship with Phil Jackson, but Mike D'Antoni was Kobe's favorite player as a kid in Italy, and the reason he wore number 8 early in his career. So Kobe certainly has respect for D'Antoni. And knowing Kobe's obsession with his legacy, it wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to try and win one without Phil.
It was probably the money, but a tiny part of me wonders if the Buss boy was concerned that if Phil came back and won it all that the narrative would be that that the Lakers could only win with Phil at the helm and the credit would not go to him and his daddy.
I think this hire will be fine actually. D'Antoni doesn't coach defense, but that doesn't mean Artest, Pau, and Howard won't still try and play it. If Nash comes back healthy, they're still major contenders.
It all depends on Kobe. If he buys in this is a good move. If Kobe pouts because Phil didn't come back there will always be issues, regardless of who is the coach. I would think that a move like this would have been run by Kobe first but I'm not sure that is how the Buss operate.
As for the offense and defense side of the ball if I'm a Lakers fan I'm more worried about the offensive side than the defensive side. You have Howard on defense and really that should take care of itself but on offense the big issue Mike D ran into in NY was Melo and how he slowed the offense down. Melo wants the ball in his hands and everything to run through him which is not how a Mike D offense works. Will Kobe try and do the same thing or will he be ok with Nash starting things to get people involved. If Mike learned anything from NY he's going to need to come up with ways to keep Kobe happy while not disturbing the flow of the offense, something he couldn't do with Melo.
Seems a poor fit for a very long in the tooth team and a weak bench. Will the faster pace style have an effect on Howard's defense.....getting up and down the floor nonstop?
We shall see.
We shall see.
In fairness the Knicks didn't have a lot of options in that regard during D'Antoni's time there because they were short of quality point guards during his tenure (they really only had Billups for a third of a season and the offense worked pretty well then). No, Jeremy Lin isn't that good. The biggest problem as regards Bryant is that the offense asks the wings to be floor spacers, which is a real role reduction for Bryant and demands Artest to do something he isn't very good at. Also Howard's lack of range means that the PF will have to adjust by shooting a lot of longer jumpers, which isn't Gasol's game. So there's a lot of work ahead.
I'm not sure that a D'Antoni offense is the right fit for this Lakers team, but I'm sure that Eddie Jordan's Princeton offense wasn't. And really, the Triangle would have been a waste of Steve Nash. I actually think Kobe recognizes the value in getting the ball out of his hands constantly. If he can get the ball in a position to score, instead of having to dribble for 15 seconds to create a shot, he'll save a lot of wear and tear and I think he knows it.
I still think LA needs more shooters, but at least they'll likely morph into a pick-and-roll heavy offense, which is exactly what they should be doing.
On the defensive side of the ball, I think the concerns are overblown. Even D'Antoni will recognize what he has in Howard, he's not going to completely ignore defense. They'll have the same issues with quicker guards, but a big man like Howard can erase a lot of errors.
I still think LA needs more shooters, but at least they'll likely morph into a pick-and-roll heavy offense, which is exactly what they should be doing.
On the defensive side of the ball, I think the concerns are overblown. Even D'Antoni will recognize what he has in Howard, he's not going to completely ignore defense. They'll have the same issues with quicker guards, but a big man like Howard can erase a lot of errors.
I am sorry, if Phil Jackson was asking for someone else to coach the team in the road, he was leaving in fantasy land. This is absurd and ridiculous and the Lakers rightly told him to take a hike.
Well, from a pace perspective he really didnt slow down much in NY.
In Phoenx [full seasons] he was super fast:
03/04 - 92.6 pace, 5th in the league
95.9 / 1st
95.8 / 1st
95.6 / 3rd
96.7 / 4th
In NY:
96.7 / 2nd
94 / 8th
95.6 / 3rd
NY wasnt the organized chaos frantic style he ran in Phoenix, its just that it seems to me that the ideal approach for them is to be a half-court team considering the age of Kobe, Nash, Artest and Gasol, and considering the speed of Gasol and Artest. I just wondering if he can tweak the offensive in this way so he doesnt completely wear down the 4 aging wonders. For all the strategic issues with Phil, one thing he always been pretty good at is realizing how long the regular season is and gauging how much he can and should push his team during it, that issue wouldnt have been a question with Phil whatsoever.
Melo was a better fit in a different position than the personnel and D'Antoni's system would dictate. That's one reason the Knicks are probably playing better this year. With Amare out, he's in the PF spot. (I am speculating here, have barely watched the Knicks)
I am not that familiar with the workings of NBA offenses, but isn't it a no brainer to run a system heavily dependent on pick and rolls with Nash/Gasol/Howard complemented by a fair dose of iso plays for Kobe?
I'm not sure there is a spot in that offense for Gasol with Nash/Howard as the primary pick and roll guys.
Why can't he be part of the pick and roll once in a while? He's also a better shooter than Howard so that would give more space for Nash too.
I guess I meant he's a pretty damn expensive once in a while guy....he's also incredibly slow. I could be wrong, but I see him as the worst fit for that offense.
It's not that, it's that the set D'Antoni runs relies on the other post player spacing the floor for the primary pick & roll big. So in Phoenix Marion shot lots of treys to space the floor for Nash & Amar'e. That won't work so well with Gashole who's not much use past 16'-18'.
The best part of all of this is that Phil Jackson comes out looking like the whiny diva douche that he is and always has been.
Yep....it also puts a lot of offense in the hands of Artest for the kickouts and his 3 pt percentage fell to 29% last year.
They need a shooter....I'm guessing they might use Gasol to get one.
That's possible, but I think Phil thought he was the only option and was prepared to bend Buss, over like he does his sister, in negotiations. In addition to his salary, there are reports that Phil wanted a piece of the team and more say in basketball decisions.
Besides Howard, do the Lakers have anybody with the legs to get back on D when they are running and gunning?
As an NBA agnostic, albeit one who has always hated the Lakers, this is enough to get even me to sit up and take notice.
I just like the idea that Phil Jackson, The Greatest Coach In NBA History, approached this whole thing like the Lakers would be lucky to have him, and gets left holding this.
It makes you wonder how big an asshole you have to be to have that become a more compelling factor than winning 11 NBA championships.
Yes, this was one of my first thoughts as well. I know there are plenty of posts of he being fortunate to have the Jordan/Pippen and Kobe/Shaq duos, with surrounding cast. I've always thought those championships were very much like getting an "A" on an exam when you were given a copy of it beforehand and had the professor as a tutor...you really have to go out of your way to mess it up. The whole zen thing and reputation of brilliance just baffled me, and I never even took the comparisons to Red seriously at all. Now just sitting back to see how this one plays out.
As opposed to the guy who never won a title with fewer than three hall of famers or in a league with more than 9 teams or without the second best player in NBA history. I didnt realize the 09 & 10 titles were such a concession to the Lakers, perhaps you just feel much more strongly about the greatness of Kobe Bryant than I do.
Phil is very impressed with Phil and the Lakers are probably smart not to spend 3 times as much to get 1.5 times the coach and recognize that D'Antoni is a much better fit for this team than big chief Triangle.
If they do make a trade, it is probably centered around Gasol for Josh Smith + some depth. Something like:
Gasol / Blake / Duhon for Smith / Devin Harris / DeShawn Stevenson
Smith would get them younger and pair Dwight with his best friend. The Hawks would be incredibly tough in the East with Gasol and Horford, plus they dont have to deal with potentially losing Smith this summer.