The Game Ball Thread: Week 9 vs. the Broncos

[MainerInExile]

I'd give Brady a game ball, but he has sisters.  Since Manning has brothers, he has to get it.

 

[Dogman]

I liked the way they dropped the OLBs more often (29 coverages) than average and rushed the ILBs more often (24 rushes) than average. It made the defense less predictable before the snap and increased the amount of things Manning had to read after the snap.
 
Edit: And what is the media/fan consensus of how Brady played? I feel like that interception that hit Amendola's hands is making Brady's great game seem more like just a good game. I thought he was impressive yesterday as he was in any game this year.

 
The ball was slightly tipped before it hit Amendola's hands. That tip was just enough to change the trajectory. 

 

[rodderick]

I liked the way they dropped the OLBs more often (29 coverages) than average and rushed the ILBs more often (24 rushes) than average. It made the defense less predictable before the snap and increased the amount of things Manning had to read after the snap.
 
Edit: And what is the media/fan consensus of how Brady played? I feel like that interception that hit Amendola's hands is making Brady's great game seem more like just a good game. I thought he was impressive yesterday as he was in any game this year.

 
The first deep ball to LaFell was a miss. It was still catchable, and not overthrown by much, but that's 7 with a perfect throw. The INT was tipped, but also a bad decision to throw high over the middle with the rush bearing down on him like that.
 
Those were the two blemishes on a great day by Brady. Thought he made some very good throws in tight windows and moved around in the pocket better than I've seen in a while. Just goes to show that the whole "seeing ghosts" and "being scared of the rush" stuff was a product of him not truly trusting the O-Line/his primary reads. He's very comfortable in the offense, he's not shying away from throwing the ball to anyone, it's just been awesome to watch.

 

[loshjott]

 
The first deep ball to LaFell was a miss. It was still catchable, and not overthrown by much, but that's 7 with a perfect throw. The INT was tipped, but also a bad decision to throw high over the middle with the rush bearing down on him like that.
 
Those were the two blemishes on a great day by Brady. Thought he made some very good throws in tight windows and moved around in the pocket better than I've seen in a while. Just goes to show that the whole "seeing ghosts" and "being scared of the rush" stuff was a product of him not truly trusting the O-Line/his primary reads. He's very comfortable in the offense, he's not shying away from throwing the ball to anyone, it's just been awesome to watch.

 
The Gronk-tacular catch was a badly thrown ball. If he was throwing that to a human being and not Gronk it's an incomplete or pick because there were 2 or 3 DBs in the area.

 

[rodderick]

 
The Gronk-tacular catch was a badly thrown ball. If he was throwing that to a human being and not Gronk it's an incomplete or pick because there were 2 or 3 DBs in the area.

 
If the target wasn't Gronk I'm 99% sure he wouldn't have thrown it. That was also a rushed throw caused by pressure, though. But I'm not going to put "throwing the ball in the general vicinity of Rob Gronkowski" in the bad decision category.

 

[Phragle]

The ball was slightly tipped before it his Amendola's hands. That tip was just enough to change the trajectory.

 
Yeah. It was a bad throw, and play in general, but it would be disappointing if it affected people's opinion much.
 

The first deep ball to LaFell was a miss. It was still catchable, and not overthrown by much, but that's 7 with a perfect throw. The INT was tipped, but also a bad decision to throw high over the middle with the rush bearing down on him like that.

 
I don't know if the decision was that bad. It was 3rd down, he may have thought Ware was offsides (he was) and no one else was open.
 
 
 
Edit: Does anyone know where I can find how many times Browner covered Julius Thomas?

 

[Super Nomario]

I liked the way they dropped the OLBs more often (29 coverages) than average and rushed the ILBs more often (24 rushes) than average. It made the defense less predictable before the snap and increased the amount of things Manning had to read after the snap.

Yeah, PFF graded Collins with 5 hurries on just 12 rushes, which is awesome. Hightower had 3 on 12 rushes himself, mostly from the interior. That was 8 of the team's 14 total hurries.
 

Edit: And what is the media/fan consensus of how Brady played? I feel like that interception that hit Amendola's hands is making Brady's great game seem more like just a good game. I thought he was impressive yesterday as he was in any game this year.

Yeah, I thought Brady was terrific, and his handling of the rush was just as impressive as his throwing. I don't think there are many QBs who would have been sacked just once yesterday.

 

[m0ckduck]

Not sure where else to put this. Lafell had a couple of bad plays last night, but consider this: after not catching a pass the first two games, he now has 36 catches for 514 yards and 5 TDs on the season, accumulated in 7 games. Projected to a 16 game season, that comes to 82 catches for 1,175 yards and 11 TDs. He may be the best #2 WR they have had since Moss-Welker in 2009.

 
Totally agree with this. I'm not sure he's much above average in a context-neutral setting. But Brady and he are 'on the same page', and the situations in which in TB targets him invariably makes me think, 'Ah, that's what we were missing in the [2010 / 2012 / 2013] AFCCG'. The prototypical big, toolsy wideout has been the missing puzzle piece since Moss left in 2009. I'd also argue that the current receiving corps is the most complete that Brady's had since 2007 in terms of blending different skill sets (not the most talented, mind you— just that it seems to have every box checked: speedy slot guy, pass-catching TE, pass-catching two-way RB, etc.)..
 
Edit:... until the next ruinous round of injuries, that is

 

[Stitch01]

Yeah, PFF graded Collins with 5 hurries on just 12 rushes, which is awesome. Hightower had 3 on 12 rushes himself, mostly from the interior. That was 8 of the team's 14 total hurries.
 
Yeah, I thought Brady was terrific, and his handling of the rush was just as impressive as his throwing. I don't think there are many QBs who would have been sacked just once yesterday.

Im glad that you mentioned this, because I think there's a difference between the offensive line being much improved from the dumpster fire it was earlier in the year, which it clearly is, and being objectively good.  They've been good enough on the interior not to completely ruin the game and Brady is doing a brilliant job IMO.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Yeah, PFF graded Collins with 5 hurries on just 12 rushes, which is awesome. Hightower had 3 on 12 rushes himself, mostly from the interior. That was 8 of the team's 14 total hurries.
 
 

 
 
What to make of this: was there something exploitable about the Denver OL, or is it that Mayo and the departed Spikes are just too slow to get to the QB with the inside rush?

 

[Just a bit outside]

 
The first deep ball to LaFell was a miss. It was still catchable, and not overthrown by much, but that's 7 with a perfect throw. The INT was tipped, but also a bad decision to throw high over the middle with the rush bearing down on him like that.
 
Those were the two blemishes on a great day by Brady. Thought he made some very good throws in tight windows and moved around in the pocket better than I've seen in a while. Just goes to show that the whole "seeing ghosts" and "being scared of the rush" stuff was a product of him not truly trusting the O-Line/his primary reads. He's very comfortable in the offense, he's not shying away from throwing the ball to anyone, it's just been awesome to watch.

The bolded part is what I have noticed the last couple of weeks.  It seems as if Brady has worked on this aspect of his game and is more willing to move through a hole in the rush toward the line of scrimmage and then make the throw.  He has always had the ability to slide right and left but he seems to be keeping plays alive longer with more movement. 

 

[Silverdude2167]

 
 
What to make of this: was there something exploitable about the Denver OL, or is it that Mayo and the departed Spikes are just too slow to get to the QB with the inside rush?

From the Denver ESPN Rapid Reaction
 

 
 
Stock watch: It's clear opponents don't think the Denver offensive line can protect Manning in the middle of the field. The Patriots sacked Manning with a three-man rush, much like the New York Jets did twice on three-man rushes the past month. Defenses are increasingly coming after center Manny Ramirez as well as guards Orlando Franklin and Louis Vasquez. The Patriots sent linebacker Jamie Collins into the middle plenty through the night. 

 
So it looks like it was more the game plan verse Denver, than anything specific with the players.

 

[Super Nomario]

Im glad that you mentioned this, because I think there's a difference between the offensive line being much improved from the dumpster fire it was earlier in the year, which it clearly is, and being objectively good.  They've been good enough on the interior not to completely ruin the game and Brady is doing a brilliant job IMO.

I think this was a reason for optimism early in the year - the standard was not the OL being "good," just "not a dumpster fire." Avoiding sacks is one of the things that separates the top QBs (and one of the few things Manning is objectively better than Brady at - Brady's very good, Manning is Marino-level unsackable) from the just good QBs - I view it as almost like walks were before all the Moneyball stuff.
 
The negative view is that if you run into a team that can get pressure AND cover, the not-as-good-as-it-looks OL can be exposed. That's what happened to Denver in the Super Bowl last year; those mediocre guys that Manning was propping up didn't look as good when they had to hold up in protection a little longer against really good pass rushers. Fortunately for the Pats, I don't think there are any teams in the NFL this year with a defense like the 2013 Seahawks.
 

 
What to make of this: was there something exploitable about the Denver OL, or is it that Mayo and the departed Spikes are just too slow to get to the QB with the inside rush?

I think it was two things. One is desperation - without Chandler Jones, they couldn't just line up with a vanilla rush and expect to win one-on-one battles, so they had to try to scheme pressure. The second thing is something they saw that was exploitable, but I'm not sure whether it's the OL, the protection schemes, the RB usage or ability in blitz pickup, or Manning. The other thing is that you have to be able to cover, too - Manning is going to get rid of the ball so quickly that you're not going to sack him, but you might be able to get him to throw earlier than he wants to or in a smaller window. There were times last night when the rush got a little heat on Manning and he made a ridiculous throw into a tight window. Sometimes you just have to tip your cap.

 

[nazz45]

I think it was two things. One is desperation - without Chandler Jones, they couldn't just line up with a vanilla rush and expect to win one-on-one battles, so they had to try to scheme pressure. The second thing is something they saw that was exploitable, but I'm not sure whether it's the OL, the protection schemes, the RB usage or ability in blitz pickup, or Manning. The other thing is that you have to be able to cover, too - Manning is going to get rid of the ball so quickly that you're not going to sack him, but you might be able to get him to throw earlier than he wants to or in a smaller window. There were times last night when the rush got a little heat on Manning and he made a ridiculous throw into a tight window. Sometimes you just have to tip your cap.

I believe Manning chewed out Hillman a few times for failure in this area. I realize the Broncos offense is as efficient as ever, but the loss of Moreno has kind of gone under the radar. Aside from the  production, he also was very good in pass protection. Again, hasn't really hurt them but it showed up a little last night.

 

[Phragle]

I think it was two things. One is desperation - without Chandler Jones, they couldn't just line up with a vanilla rush and expect to win one-on-one battles, so they had to try to scheme pressure. 

 
I think that's one part of it. The other is that you could argue all four LBs are good at rushing and covering. Mayo wasn't a great pass rusher so you wouldn't do it with him, and Jones hasn't proved he can cover well so you wouldn't ask him to drop ~ 25% of passing snaps. With Nink - Collins - Hightower - Ayers you can rush or cover from every position effectively.

 

[nazz45]

 
I think that's one part of it. The other is that you could argue all four LBs are good at rushing and covering. Mayo wasn't a great pass rusher so you wouldn't do it with him, and Jones hasn't proved he can cover well so you wouldn't ask him to drop ~ 25% of passing snaps. With Nink - Collins - Hightower - Ayers you can rush or cover from every position effectively.

This is a really good point regarding Ayers. Having played as the strong-side linebacker in a 4-3 defense, he's a different player than Jones. Maybe not the same caliber pass rusher, but he is used to dropping into coverage whereas Jones was basically your designated rusher.
 
Ayers is a well rounded linebacker/hybird DE. Hopefully, Jones will come back and then you have a nice trio (with Ninkovich) at this position which was thin coming into the year.

 

[RedOctober3829]

This is a really good point regarding Ayers. Having played as the strong-side linebacker in a 4-3 defense, he's a different player than Jones. Maybe not the same caliber pass rusher, but he is used to dropping into coverage whereas Jones was basically your designated rusher.
 
Ayers is a well rounded linebacker/hybird DE. Hopefully, Jones will come back and then you have a nice trio (with Ninkovich) at this position which was thin coming into the year.

Yes Ayers really limits Jones' need to play 3-4 OLB and could limit CJ's snaps a bit to keep him fresh for passing downs

 

[dbn]

My $0.02 on Brady's performance: sure he missed or was a bit off on a few throws, but he had a lot of very impressive throws as well (according to my un-sober memory). He appeared locked in to me.  
 
aside: "not a dumpster fire" is my new favorite backhanded compliment. 
 
another aside: what to make of Ninkovich? He doesn't seem that good, but the guy makes plays over and over.
 
edit: a third aside: it turns out that BB knew more than I about Chung's ability to contribute. You win this time, BB. I'm man enough to admit it.

 

[Super Nomario]

I believe Manning chewed out Hillman a few times for failure in this area. I realize the Broncos offense is as efficient as ever, but the loss of Moreno has kind of gone under the radar. Aside from the  production, he also was very good in pass protection. Again, hasn't really hurt them but it showed up a little last night.

To this point, PFF killed Hillman for pass pro, grading him a -3.5 and charting him with 3 hurries allowed in just 8 pass blocking snaps. Then again, you have to question a scheme that counts on a smallish RB to pick up guys like Hightower and Collins who are big LBs.
 

 
I think that's one part of it. The other is that you could argue all four LBs are good at rushing and covering. Mayo wasn't a great pass rusher so you wouldn't do it with him, and Jones hasn't proved he can cover well so you wouldn't ask him to drop ~ 25% of passing snaps. With Nink - Collins - Hightower - Ayers you can rush or cover from every position effectively.

I think Mayo is kind of underrated as a blitzer (and Spikes had his moments, too), but Collins and Hightower have borderline DE skill sets that add another dimension in this area, that's for sure.
 

Yes Ayers really limits Jones' need to play 3-4 OLB and could limit CJ's snaps a bit to keep him fresh for passing downs

The problem is: how do you use Chandler Jones when he gets back? The 3-4 gives them more options to scheme pressure and lets them capitalize on the blitzing ability of Hightower and Collins and Nink's skill set, but Jones is really a pure 4-3 DE. He hasn't looked as capable as a 3-4 DE or as a 3-4 OLB, but the rest of the personnel seems better suited to the 3-4.

 

[Phragle]

I think Mayo is kind of underrated as a blitzer (and Spikes had his moments, too), but Collins and Hightower have borderline DE skill sets that add another dimension in this area, that's for sure.

 
Yeah that's the point. They now have four tweeners, and they're utilizing them as such. It was a really great idea by whoever thought of it.
 

The problem is: how do you use Chandler Jones when he gets back? The 3-4 gives them more options to scheme pressure and lets them capitalize on the blitzing ability of Hightower and Collins and Nink's skill set, but Jones is really a pure 4-3 DE. He hasn't looked as capable as a 3-4 DE or as a 3-4 OLB, but the rest of the personnel seems better suited to the 3-4.

 
I think Chandler Jones makes a fine 3-4 ROLB. As long as he's rushing more than 90% of the time.
 
When Jones is back I hope we see some rotation. Ayers looks like he could be the pass-rushing depth guy many of us wanted this offseason, but he's not good enough to keep Jones off the field a lot. Or maybe he is, but I'm not willing to say that yet.

 

[Tony C]

 
... Thought he made some very good throws in tight windows and moved around in the pocket better than I've seen in a while. Just goes to show that the whole "seeing ghosts" and "being scared of the rush" stuff was a product of him not truly trusting the O-Line/his primary reads. He's very comfortable in the offense, he's not shying away from throwing the ball to anyone, it's just been awesome to watch.

 
 

The bolded part is what I have noticed the last couple of weeks.  It seems as if Brady has worked on this aspect of his game and is more willing to move through a hole in the rush toward the line of scrimmage and then make the throw.  He has always had the ability to slide right and left but he seems to be keeping plays alive longer with more movement. 

 
Remember the "Brady crouch" when the pass rush came close? If you do, it's sort of a distant memory, isn't it? Because I don't recall seeing it once this year. It was so frustrating to see him the past few years just turtle rather than move in the pocket, and it's awesome that this year he's upped his game in that category. His movement in the pocket has been great....in addition to his other obvious HOF skills.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

According to the PFW guys, Brady's movement in the pocket was a major point of emphasis in the off-season/training camp. Some assumed McDaniels, et al, were drilling this for the QBs as a nod to Jimmy G's skill set, possibly part of a "Jimmy package" (our British viewers will excuse our lack of delicacy and less than stellar word choice there), but...

...in a press conference at some point McD mentioned something about increased pocket mobility for ALL of the quarterbacks was something that they failed to sufficiently draw upon last year (and presumably before that). Brady has worked diligently on this aspect of his game and it is clearly paying dividends, especially of late.

EDIT: because I constantly fuck up.

 

[crystalline]

According to the PFW guys, Brady's movement in the pocket was a major point of emphasis in the off-season/training camp. Some assumed McDaniels, et al, were drilling this for the QBs as a nod to Jimmy G's skill set, possibly part of a "Jimmy package" (our British viewers will excuse our lack of delicacy and less than stellar word choice there), but...

...in a press conference at some point McD mentioned something about increased pocket mobility for ALL of the quarterbacks was something that they failed to sufficiently draw upon last year (and presumably before that). Brady has worked diligently on this aspect of his game and it is clearly paying dividends, especially of late.

EDIT: because I constantly fuck up.

Cool stuff. He definitely seems to be more confident the past few weeks. I saw Brady flinch and pull the ball down once or twice on Sun even so.

I don't think that's always a bad thing though. It's better to be careful with the ball on 5 or so downs than to give up a fumble because you were trying to do too much. We saw that with Jay Cutler last week. On the strip fumble he had a guy around his legs and absolutely should have turtled and taken the sack. Instead he looked around for the shovel pass, got stripped, and dramatically damaged his team's comeback chances.

 

[DaubachmanTurnerOD]

 

Ayers looks like he could be the pass-rushing depth guy many of us wanted this offseason, but he's not good enough to keep Jones off the field a lot.

Was Ayers around the QB much other than the one 4th and 6 sack? That play appeared to be a stunt that Denver did not pick up, so it doesn't really tell us that much, does it? I'm encouraged by your statement because you seem to know a lot more than I do about football, but I just don't remember seeing Ayers pressuring Manning other than the sack.


Random aside: Did anyone else notice that Brady appeared to be the first one to congratulate Edelman after the punt return TD? It looked like he was, but I can't figure out how he got there so soon since Edelman was way over in the far corner of the end zone. I do love the image of Brady sprinting down the sideline trying to keep up with Edelman.

 

[RedOctober3829]

A 4-3 with Jones and Ayers on the same side could work very well in generating pressure. OL would have to choose who to block if both rush and would for a back or TE to help on that side.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Are we sure Jones will even be back this year? I get very nervous about indefinite timelines. Maybe I'm just having Rosevelt Colvin flashbacks.

Yes, I believe Chandler Jones will be back this year but it will be more than the 6 weeks they say.  If he's back for the playoffs then that's all I care about.

 

[lexrageorge]

Yes, I believe Chandler Jones will be back this year but it will be more than the 6 weeks they say.  If he's back for the playoffs then that's all I care about.

If Belichick felt that there was no or little chance Jones would be back for the playoffs, he would be on IR right now.  He's not, which means that at least the medical and training staff believe there's a chance he'll be back in that 6 week window. 

 

[RedOctober3829]

If Belichick felt that there was no or little chance Jones would be back for the playoffs, he would be on IR right now.  He's not, which means that at least the medical and training staff believe there's a chance he'll be back in that 6 week window. 

I'm not saying he's out for the season.  You're right in that they know he'll be back at some time this season.  I just don't think he'll be back in that 6 week window.  Tom Curran reported that the injury was more serious than what was let on earlier.  If he can come back for the 3 division games in December and work his way back to as close to 100% as he can get for January then I'd be OK.  I don't count on him coming back for this stretch of games ending with at SD.  If he's back for Miami, good.

 

[Reardon's Beard]

Game ball: The New England Patriots.

 

[Phragle]

Was Ayers around the QB much other than the one 4th and 6 sack? That play appeared to be a stunt that Denver did not pick up, so it doesn't really tell us that much, does it? I'm encouraged by your statement because you seem to know a lot more than I do about football, but I just don't remember seeing Ayers pressuring Manning other than the sack.

 
PFF has him with 3 hurries in addition to the sack. On the sack, Denver didn't pick it up, but it's not like Ayers lucked his way into it either. It was a great execution from Ayers and Wilfork. Aldon Smith and Justin Smith have rode that stunt to stardom, but you don't hear people calling them lucky.
 
It's a small sample but his PRP is an above-average 9.4. It's not quite Chandler Jones (10) but it's much better than Ninkovich (7.5). If he can stay anywhere near that level he'll provide value as a depth/rotational guy. Especially considering he has some versatility. He's not the Andre Carter type.

 

[Ed Hillel]

A 4-3 with Jones and Ayers on the same side could work very well in generating pressure. OL would have to choose who to block if both rush and would for a back or TE to help on that side.

 
Or you can line them up on opposite sides with Wilfork and Siliga in the middle. Siliga is going to make a big difference, that's two behemoths in the middle to try to run through.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Random aside: Did anyone else notice that Brady appeared to be the first one to congratulate Edelman after the punt return TD? It looked like he was, but I can't figure out how he got there so soon since Edelman was way over in the far corner of the end zone. I do love the image of Brady sprinting down the sideline trying to keep up with Edelman.

I don't think Brady was the first there but he was there. When Edelman was on EEI earlier this week they talked about it. Edelman said he didn't really even think of it until a while later and he asked Tom if he ran out onto the field after the TD. Brady confirmed he did and said he had to congratulate "his guy" or something like that.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Brady was mic'd up for this game for SoundFX. It airs Friday at 3:00 pm. DVR is set.

 

[BusRaker]

And Jimmy G!

Unsung hero. Did he win practice player of the week?

 

[mulluysavage]

I give a ball to the Gillette crowd. There was a noise-induced Broncos TO. Manning had to work hard to get audibles heard. I am qualified to hand out the ball because I was in 226. I also accept the ball from myself. Two words: snowmobiling mittens. Warm and loud.