The Game Goat Thread: Wk. 3 vs Ravens

FL4WL3SS

my name sucks
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Jul 31, 2006
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See, now you're underselling the excellent plays he made today. So yeah, that answers my question from the game thread. You're a Mac hater.

Which, of course, you have every right to be, and I understand why you are. I just don't have the same view as you. I think he's got a lot of growing to do, so in no way am I arguing that he's great or anything like that. But I have a higher opinion of him than you do, obviously.
I admitted as much. He sucks and I hated the pick from day 1. I try and stay open minded, but it's getting really hard.
 

gattman

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Jul 15, 2005
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I think it’s fair to say that through three games this season, Mac has regressed in terms of decision making. Which, given his physical limitations, is critically important. The question is why— change in offensive scheme? coaches? defenses prepping for him differently? Something else?

The bigger questions for the Pats are— is this fixable? And how do you manage/fix this?

And unfortunately it looks like they won’t have this year to work through it. Which means 2023 becomes make or break for Mac (since they have to decide after the season whether or not to pick up his 5th year option). Not an ideal situation.
 

heavyde050

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I admitted as much. He sucks and I hated the pick from day 1. I try and stay open minded, but it's getting really hard.
It is okay to hate the pick, but what else where the Pats supposed to do? I mean a top QB fell to them at 15. Cam definitely wasn't even close to the answer. I mean trade up for Fields - he is like the one QB that has been even worse than Mac this year (and I liked him coming out of the draft). It is a QB league, not sure what BB was supposed to do at 15 if not Jones.
 

Cabin Mirror

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I think I would feel a lot differently if we still had McDaniels or some other "QB Whisperer" type of OC guru. I don't see how his regression is not linked to the coaching. And without injury, could it work out over the course of the season? Sure, I was semi-optimistic about that possibility.

I will say, regardless of who is available at QB in the draft, I am not all that interested in pressing the reset button. I would almost prefer them stock up on defensive pieces to and wait for Mac to be healthy next year and just drill risk avoidance into him. Maybe bench him for boneheaded INTs like they do RBs/fumbles.
 

gattman

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Let’s do a thought experiment— if Tua made the exact same decisions Mac made today, the exact same throws, what would we be saying? We’d be shredding him. And rightfully so. Mac made some great plays today & some dogshit ones. It fell far short of what is needed from a good QB never mind a great one.
 

rodderick

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Mac was a solid pick at 15, didn't love him as a prospect but I think he can be a good QB in this league. I guess they could've traded for Garoppolo and been in a very similar situation in terms of expectations, but I don't know, I just don't think the 15th pick is THAT valuable either. Mac's level of performance is already a good outcome for where he was drafted. I just don't see how they can find themselves in position to grab a franchise guy, unless they are willing to trade a ton of future picks either way. A Belichick coached team isn't winning 4 games or fewer. The plan worked out fine.
 

FL4WL3SS

my name sucks
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It is okay to hate the pick, but what else where the Pats supposed to do? I mean a top QB fell to them at 15. Cam definitely wasn't even close to the answer. I mean trade up for Fields - he is like the one QB that has been even worse than Mac this year (and I liked him coming out of the draft). It is a QB league, not sure what BB was supposed to do at 15 if not Jones.
I've mentioned this before, but I wanted Fields and am ok getting flamed for it. He's the superior athlete in a shit situation in Chicago. He's been terrible, but not sure how to evaluate him.
 

OurF'ingCity

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It is okay to hate the pick, but what else where the Pats supposed to do? I mean a top QB fell to them at 15. Cam definitely wasn't even close to the answer. I mean trade up for Fields - he is like the one QB that has been even worse than Mac this year (and I liked him coming out of the draft). It is a QB league, not sure what BB was supposed to do at 15 if not Jones.
The real mistake was not taking Hurts in 2020. Worst case, he would have just been a younger version of what they ultimately got with Cam Newton, which was not very good. And we've seen how he's improved since then.

Of course, you can play this game of shoulda/coulda with pretty much anyone but I distinctly remember hoping the Pats would go after Hurts that year after Brady's departure.
 

Salem's Lot

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It is okay to hate the pick, but what else where the Pats supposed to do? I mean a top QB fell to them at 15. Cam definitely wasn't even close to the answer. I mean trade up for Fields - he is like the one QB that has been even worse than Mac this year (and I liked him coming out of the draft). It is a QB league, not sure what BB was supposed to do at 15 if not Jones.
Trade for Jimmy G (which they wanted to do, but only if he’d agree to take less money) and draft the best available defensive player.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I fucking hate when people drag Drew Bledsoe. The shit that guy takes from Pats fans is really unconscionable. Yes he was very limited by the time Mo Lewis almost killed him, but he was a good QB early in his career, albeit in a different era so his stats don’t stack up to guys who have played during the last 20 years or so. If Mac Jones ends up having Drew Bledsoe’s career (adjusted for era, statistically) we should be very happy about it.
 

heavyde050

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Trade for Jimmy G (which they wanted to do, but only if he’d agree to take less money) and draft the best available defensive player.
I would love to know what BB sees in Jimmy G. He didn't get enough (allegedly) when first trading him and tried to run the greatest QB in franchise history out of town for him (allegedly). Shanahan has had insane success with Jimmy G, but still traded a ton of draft capital to get a different QB and replace Jimmy.
 

Ed Hillel

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If I squinted my eyes during today’s game I could see Drew Bledsoe.

That’s not a compliment.
This is the problem. Pats fans complaining about someone looking like Drew Bledsoe shows how out of touch fans here have become after 20 years of the greatest football in history. Mac didn’t look as good as Bledsoe was, so I’m not saying he was good or anything today, but just the idea Bledsoe was a horror is really kind of appalling.

As for Mac, he played 90% good snaps and 10% horrible. Sucks he ruined what would have been a very good game with 2 bad decisions, but that’s part of the process.
 
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heavyde050

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I fucking hate when people drag Drew Bledsoe. The shit that guy takes from Pats fans is really unconscionable. Yes he was very limited by the time Mo Lewis almost killed him, but he was a good QB early in his career, albeit in a different era so his stats don’t stack up to guys who have played during the last 20 years or so. If Mac Jones ends up having Drew Bledsoe’s career (adjusted for era, statistically) we should be very happy about it.
Bledsoe was the QB that with Parcells brought the Pats back to relevance after some really tough times (in the late 80s and early 90s). I think he was the first jersey I had as a kid.
But he made some really poor decisions with the ball (way before the Mo Lewis hit). He was a great QB and great for the franchise, but he definitely made some really head scratching throws - probably because he believed in his insane arm.
I also love how people (not posters here) fail to remember that Brady spent like his first 4 or so seasons in the old NFL when comparing his per game stats to guys like Rodgers and Mahomes that have spent their entire careers in the pass happy NFL.
 
Aug 9, 2015
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I fucking hate when people drag Drew Bledsoe. The shit that guy takes from Pats fans is really unconscionable. Yes he was very limited by the time Mo Lewis almost killed him, but he was a good QB early in his career, albeit in a different era so his stats don’t stack up to guys who have played during the last 20 years or so. If Mac Jones ends up having Drew Bledsoe’s career (adjusted for era, statistically) we should be very happy about it.
I’ll die on the Drew hill any day. He took the Pats from football Siberia to relevance. He also makes damn good wine.
 

FL4WL3SS

my name sucks
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Andy Brickley's potty mouth
I fucking hate when people drag Drew Bledsoe. The shit that guy takes from Pats fans is really unconscionable. Yes he was very limited by the time Mo Lewis almost killed him, but he was a good QB early in his career, albeit in a different era so his stats don’t stack up to guys who have played during the last 20 years or so. If Mac Jones ends up having Drew Bledsoe’s career (adjusted for era, statistically) we should be very happy about it.
100%

Mac wishes he had Bledsoes arm
 

Bowser

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Sep 27, 2019
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I think it’s fair to say that through three games this season, Mac has regressed in terms of decision making. Which, given his physical limitations, is critically important. The question is why— change in offensive scheme? coaches? defenses prepping for him differently? Something else?
One thing that's changed is we're no longer asking Mac to take what the defense is giving him. Now he's being asked to zip high leverage throws into the middle of a defense, into tight coverage, at crunch time. Not clear he can do it. That is, does he have the arm strength, does he see the field well enough, and has he figured out how his arm plays in this league?

His lack of arm strength is striking when you watch him in person.
 

m0ckduck

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Agholor fumble: that play situation so often leads to a fumble that I sat up nervously while it was unfolding and was scarcely disappointed when the ball was punched out. There's something about a guy running downfield in open space, not aware of the defender gaining on him from behind and slowing down to let the play develop in front of him that seems to lead to innumerable fumbles.
 

Ferm Sheller

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Agholor fumble: that play situation so often leads to a fumble that I sat up nervously while it was unfolding and was scarcely disappointed when the ball was punched out. There's something about a guy running downfield in open space, not aware of the defender gaining on him from behind and slowing down to let the play develop in front of him that seems to lead to innumerable fumbles.
Yeah, I said it in the game thread, I saw that fumble long before it happened (probably a lot of us did).
 

OurF'ingCity

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One thing that's changed is we're no longer asking Mac to take what the defense is giving him. Now he's being asked to zip high leverage throws into the middle of a defense, into tight coverage, at crunch time. Not clear he can do it. That is, does he have the arm strength, does he see the field well enough, and has he figured out how his arm plays in this league?

His lack of arm strength is striking when you watch him in person.
Yes, they have clearly taken the training wheels off to some extent this year. Which raises the question - is Mac just incapable of handling anything other than a very conservative playbook, or is he just hitting a somewhat natural plateau where he will improve once he gets used to it?

That's why it's so annoying if he's out for an extended period of time - he needs all the in-game experience he can get, and the coaching staff needs it too to deterine what they actually have in Mac.
 

Ed Hillel

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Yes, they have clearly taken the training wheels off to some extent this year. Which raises the question - is Mac just incapable of handling anything other than a very conservative playbook, or is he just hitting a somewhat natural plateau where he will improve once he gets used to it?

That's why it's so annoying if he's out for an extended period of time - he needs all the in-game experience he can get, and the coaching staff needs it too to deterine what they actually have in Mac.
He certainly seemed capable of the throws, the issue today was his decision making on 2-3 plays.
 
Aug 9, 2015
980
Agholor fumble: that play situation so often leads to a fumble that I sat up nervously while it was unfolding and was scarcely disappointed when the ball was punched out. There's something about a guy running downfield in open space, not aware of the defender gaining on him from behind and slowing down to let the play develop in front of him that seems to lead to innumerable fumbles.
You’d think guys who catch and carry footballs for a living wouldn’t lose awareness like that and would carry it high Tiki Barber-style, but I got that same sinking feeling watching him run. The recovery was also fortunate luck for Peters. Had to bounce just right.
 

BaseballJones

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Fumble Luck (TM) this season for NE:

vs Mia:
- Defense caused 4 fumbles, Mia recovered 4
- Offense lost 2 fumbles, Mia recovered 2
- TOTAL: 6 fumbles, 0 for NE, 6 for opp

vs Pit:
- Defense caused 1 fumble, NE recovered 1
- Offense lost 0 fumbles
- TOTAL: 1 fumble, 1 for NE, 0 for opp

vs Bal:
- Defense caused 1 fumble, NE recovered 1
- Offense lost 1 fumble, Bal recovered 1
- TOTAL: 2 fumbles, 1 for NE, 1 for Bal

Season total:
- Defense caused 6 fumbles: NE got 2, Opp got 4
- Offense lost 3 fumbles: NE got 0, Opp got 3

So it's 7-2 in terms of fumble recoveries. The Pats' D has done a good job through three games getting the ball out. They just haven't had too much to show for it.
 

cornwalls@6

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Mac- Hate to kick a guy while he’s down, but his two picks were just brutal.

Agholor- His fumble was just a back breaker. Great play by Hamilton, but ball security is not negotiable.

Defense- with the caveat that they played well at times, and were put into too many bad situations late in the game, they got absolutely shredded for the 3 scores in the middle of the game. Coaching and execution has to be better.
 

Tim Salmon

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Mac- Hate to kick a guy while he’s down, but his two picks were just brutal.

Agholor- His fumble was just a back breaker. Great play by Hamilton, but ball security is not negotiable.

Defense- with the caveat that they played well at times, and were put into too many bad situations late in the game, they got absolutely shredded for the 3 scores in the middle of the game. Coaching and execution has to be better.
Just wait until you see the third one.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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So nobody is going to give Matt Patricia any guff for today? After all, it's his offensive program they're running. He doesn't tell Jones to throw the ball to the other team, obviously, but he's pretty much the one calling everything.
 

Cotillion

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Jun 11, 2019
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Fumble Luck (TM) this season for NE:

vs Mia:
- Defense caused 4 fumbles, Mia recovered 4
- Offense lost 2 fumbles, Mia recovered 2
- TOTAL: 6 fumbles, 0 for NE, 6 for opp

vs Pit:
- Defense caused 1 fumble, NE recovered 1
- Offense lost 0 fumbles
- TOTAL: 1 fumble, 1 for NE, 0 for opp

vs Bal:
- Defense caused 1 fumble, NE recovered 1
- Offense lost 1 fumble, Bal recovered 1
- TOTAL: 2 fumbles, 1 for NE, 1 for Bal

Season total:
- Defense caused 6 fumbles: NE got 2, Opp got 4
- Offense lost 3 fumbles: NE got 0, Opp got 3

So it's 7-2 in terms of fumble recoveries. The Pats' D has done a good job through three games getting the ball out. They just haven't had too much to show for it.
I'm not sure how the Bourne own fumble recovery works in that count you did for today. Shouldn't it be Two NE fumbles one lost?
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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So nobody is going to give Matt Patricia any guff for today? After all, it's his offensive program they're running. He doesn't tell Jones to throw the ball to the other team, obviously, but he's pretty much the one calling everything.
No issues with the game calling today. 26 points and could have had more of not for all the turnovers.

Patricia’s not the guy telling Mac to throw picks into the end zone.
 

Harry Hooper

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Bedard says BB was coaching the offense on the sidelines today and pretty much ignored the defense entirely, so there's some question of who was calling what for the offense.
 

Salva135

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Many of those seemed to rely on picks/rubs that just didn’t happen for one reason or another. But yeah, uninspired.
This used to be the bread and butter of the Pats offense. I was always under the assumption that the day McD left, there would be a ton of institutional knowledge to pass along. If Matt P has no real experience as a coordinator, why isn't he just using the playbook they've had for almost 2 decades now? I don't understand this concept of having to start from scratch given that BB is still in charge, and has been an architect of the offense as well.
 

Cotillion

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I completely forget that play. What happened on that one?
I can’t remember if it was Bourne or not. But there was one towards the end where wr fumbled and recovered his own. Toward the middle of the field near a hash mark. Raven almost got it. But after the algohor fumble and mac injury the whole end just bled together for me.
 

SMU_Sox

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Mac has been missing guys underneath and floating into his throwing lanes and that's been an issue last year, in pre-season, and this year. His post-snap vision is leading to turnover worthy plays.
 

Garshaparra

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Feb 27, 2008
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McCarver's Mushy Mouth
This was a tale of two halves. The first was a real trenches slugfest, not much happening through the air, good line play on both sides of the ball. The big hint both teams took from the first half is "These refs aren't calling a damn thing", and so it turned into Holding and PI-Fest. On several of the big BAL runs, there were hugely obvious holds at the point of attack that weren't called. The Pats were getting away with holds on the edge too, but their backs aren't as explosive as Lamar, and the Pats' secondary tackling was much, much worse, so the effect was far more pronounced. As discussed previously, PI was happening all over the field, and the refs just swallowed the whistles. The result? A far more entertaining game than either team should have delivered, given limited WR and OL talent. Goats are obvious though:
  • Mac's decision making - several terrible reads, like the early 4th down pass to Bourne, the near-goal line pick, the throw to Harris in the flat with two defenders bearing down on him, and so many picks.
  • The secondary's tackling - zone coverage was pretty good, but as soon as a runner got past the LBs, look out. Bryant and Mills would be buried on most team. Here, they're starting.
  • Agholar's fumble - even with all of the bad play above, the Pats were still in line to keep it close...until that.