The new net behind the plate

richgedman'sghost

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I was disappointed MLB chose the "simple" solution. It does not affect me at all since I don't go to games often and usually sit up the line by 1B when I do , if I can. I had proposed making designated "hazard areas" kid free, phone free and vendor free, and basically use the same standards airlines do for exit row seats in terms of fitness and being alert in order to sit there. Perhaps even making helmets available for those who want them.

It would surprise me if insurance premiums were an issue dictating this move. Injuries happen every year but it seems last year they got a bit more play than usual.
Tic
In any event, my condolences to those who are affected
"My condolences"? Gee, you seem to be a little over dramatic here. To me, condolences are reserved for true tragedies such as deaths or learning you have a serious illness. Get some perspective. Anyway, I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill and most people won't even notice after a game or two.
 

joe dokes

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Yet incidents do occur. If you go to a ballgame, you keep your eye on the ball - and the closer to the action you sit, the more attentive you need to be. It's been that way for more than 100 years, and the warning signs are everywhere. Yet fans will still get injured.
*****************************************************

Mostly because there aren't a lot of major leaguers sitting in the stands who can reliably catch a screaming liner, even if they are paying attention. More so at Fenway, which probably(?) has more seats closer to home plate than any other field.



How many 1st base coaches have been killed by line drives? Yet all of them have to wear helmets.
 
How many 1st base coaches have been killed by line drives? Yet all of them have to wear helmets.
The last one I recall was at an Arkansas Traveler's game. My son (9 at the time) was standing on the first base fence because they were going to allow the kids to run the bases between innings. The coach had turned his back to walk farther back in the coaching box and was caught by a liner just below the edge of the helmet.

I don't have an issue with the net. Have been behind netting a lot including all of my son's high school games and never really notice unless I'm trying to take pics and the auto focus sees the net.
That being said, the net is a reaction to public pressure not public risk. I tried to pull info from some salient publications.
About 53,000 of the 73,000 fouls hit each season enter the seats, according to Edwin Comber, creator of foulballz.com.
Totaling data from multiple sources, there were about 750 injuries reported to stadium first-aid booths at games attended by approximately 31.6 million spectators.
That translates into 23.7 injuries per million attendees -- or an estimated 1,756 injuries last season, when 74 million people went to games. (Bloomberg Business)
Since the 1969 with the advent of larger steeper stadiums, there have been 21 non suicide deadly falls at U.S. baseball stadiums. Most of these are from the stairwells including jumping from platform to platform on more than one occasion. Alcohol plays a role in a majority of those.
It would seem they need to heighten the rails in the stadiums and along the stairs as much as they need to add a net.
 

YTF

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The last one I recall was at an Arkansas Traveler's game. My son (9 at the time) was standing on the first base fence because they were going to allow the kids to run the bases between innings. The coach had turned his back to walk farther back in the coaching box and was caught by a liner just below the edge of the helmet.

the net is a reaction to public pressure not public risk. I tried to pull info from some salient publications.
About 53,000 of the 73,000 fouls hit each season enter the seats, according to Edwin Comber, creator of foulballz.com.
Totaling data from multiple sources, there were about 750 injuries reported to stadium first-aid booths at games attended by approximately 31.6 million spectators.
That translates into 23.7 injuries per million attendees -- or an estimated 1,756 injuries last season, when 74 million people went to games. (Bloomberg Business)
.
I appreciate the effort made here and while I don't have the research or numbers I do have something that may not have been taken into consideration in your research. Of those 53,000 foul balls hit into the stands, how many were line drives into the newly protected areas? How many of the injuries occurred in that area? How many of those foul balls were pop ups or long fly balls that dropped further back into the stands, into upper levels or down the outfield line? How many were hit at a trajectory, speed or distance that makes them less likely to injure a person or to a spot where a person may have considerably more time to see and react to the ball? How many injuries occurred in those areas? My point being that there is a certain area being deemed as a greater risk for injury and I'm guessing that is based on the idea (and probable fact) that the most serious and potentially life threatening injuries occur in that area. If I've read your post correctly, you're including the entire ball park and every foul ball reaching the seats in what you've presented here and I don't think that it's very credible given so many variables that you haven't considered.
 
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NJ_Sox_Fan

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It is just a silly overreaction in my opinion. Yes, it is sad some people got hurt. However, the sad fact is that people get hurt doing all sorts of mundane daily tasks. I mean, 26 people were killed by lightning while fishing between 2006-2012. 26!

Shit happens. If 750 people were hurt at baseball games last year out of the 31.6 million, that is what? .00002% of the fans who were hurt?

That seems like such a ridiculously low # to make all these changes that affect how you watch a game. If they are that concerned about injuries, they should remove alcohol sales.
 

threecy

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Those ratios aren't as important as the 750 injuries out of 31.6 million spectators ratio. That's what MLB is trying to reduce with the nets.
I wonder what the ratio is of food poisoning/choking/etc. on ballpark food out of 31.6 million spectators. Perhaps further investigation will result in mandatory sauteed, diced Fenway Franks.
 

DJnVa

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That seems like such a ridiculously low # to make all these changes that affect how you watch a game.
But a lot of people are saying it doesn't actually affect how they watch the game. And no one has actually seen a game at Fenway with the new nets. The mega-net, if you will.



I wonder what the ratio is of food poisoning/choking/etc. on ballpark food out of 31.6 million spectators.
And is that ratio higher or lower than women drugged by your dude Cosby?
 
If I've read your post correctly, you're including the entire ball park and every foul ball reaching the seats in what you've presented here and I don't think that it's very credible given so many variables that you haven't considered.
I've looked for a little more context on those numbers and in fact they are "ALL INJURIES REPORTED TO THE FIRST AID STATION" related to foul balls. On Foulballz.com there actually is another discussion of the same and to use their language it is like this: "This means if I get in a scrum and come out with an injured wrist and I elbowed some old lady in the ol’ kisser going for it and she fell over the seats and tripped up a kid who scraped his knee and jostles a guy with a tray of beers coming down the aisle steps who then stumbles flips over the railing and spills his beer into the eyes of a couple on their first date, and we all report our individual injuries, then we have one foul ball accounting for 5-6 injuries." Further in his extrapolations (which I leave to you to decide their validity) he states there are likely 200 spectators per year who require immediate evacuation for their injury across major league baseball and only about 5 of those per year are from the direct impact of the foul ball. The other injuries are presumably from the attempts to catch (we've all seen the ankle/wrist injury and face plant in an attempt to catch a low velocity foul pop up) or dodge a foul ball and the net will only reduce that number slightly.
 

Captaincoop

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It's another example of MLB having to cater to non-baseball fans.

High velocity foul balls have been around forever. Stadiums filled with people who have little interest in paying attention to the game have not.
 

Toe Nash

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The ball can go pretty quickly down the line too. What happens when a 6-year-old gets hit by a ball in say, Field Box 15 and a bunch of reporters make a fuss about it? Do we extend the net or do we say "too bad Jimmy!"?

You have to make a judgment call about risk and draw a line somewhere. I'm not convinced MLB has done this with any kind of rational thinking. They should have HitFX data and be able to tell just how risky each seat is.

More people will be hurt and killed driving home drunk from the game than by foul balls, but they'll never stop selling alcohol at the game (not that I'm advocating this).
 

YTF

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I've read "they'll never stop selling alcohol" several times in this thread and I get the what you're saying. In effect, it's an unreasonable expectation for several reasons, but what makes hanging a net unreasonable? (not your word, mine)
 

Minneapolis Millers

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It's another example of MLB having to cater to non-baseball fans.

High velocity foul balls have been around forever. Stadiums filled with people who have little interest in paying attention to the game have not.
Right, but so what? Should MLB impose a litmus test before selling tickets to fans? "Are you REALLY interested in watching the game, and will you pay STRICT attention at all times to avoid getting hurt by a foul ball? Cuz if the answer is no, then we're not selling you this $100 ticket."

The world changes. The teams themselves, catering to its fans, actually provide far more distractions now than they used to (Hello, digital scoreboards! Stadium-wide Wi-Fi. Wally not enough? Here's Tessie! etc.). So the league responds to this issue by saying, you know, for relatively little cost/inconvenience, we can cut down the risk of these types of rare but serious injuries substantially. And the teams put up more netting. Bid deal.

The handwringing from the anti-netting crowd is over-the-top, imo.
 

Captaincoop

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I've read "they'll never stop selling alcohol" several times in this thread and I get the what you're saying. In effect, it's an unreasonable expectation for several reasons, but what makes hanging a net unreasonable? (not your word, mine)
I don't know about "unreasonable", but the net is a serious change to the game experience from those seats, at least in my own opinion. When I purchase tickets to the Sox or any other baseball game, my prime goal is to get as close to the field as possible so that my kids or I can chat guys up pre-game, get a foul ball, get an autograph, have a ball tossed to us after an inning, or otherwise be engaged in a personal way. The net eliminates like half of those outcomes, and makes other ones harder.

As a concrete example, I would now prioritize getting close-up seats just beyond the net, whereas prior to this year, the seats closer to home plate would have been more desirable.
 

Captaincoop

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Right, but so what? Should MLB impose a litmus test before selling tickets to fans? "Are you REALLY interested in watching the game, and will you pay STRICT attention at all times to avoid getting hurt by a foul ball? Cuz if the answer is no, then we're not selling you this $100 ticket."

The world changes. The teams themselves, catering to its fans, actually provide far more distractions now than they used to (Hello, digital scoreboards! Stadium-wide Wi-Fi. Wally not enough? Here's Tessie! etc.). So the league responds to this issue by saying, you know, for relatively little cost/inconvenience, we can cut down the risk of these types of rare but serious injuries substantially. And the teams put up more netting. Bid deal.

The handwringing from the anti-netting crowd is over-the-top, imo.
I wasn't handwringing, I was pointing out what was causing the change. It's an overreaction to a very rare incident that will make the game a bit less fun for lots of people. I won't lose any sleep over it, but as noted above, it will change my buying habits.
 

uncannymanny

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So the awful tradeoff for a small bump in safety is that you might have to sit in some other seats? My condolences.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I imagine players are the biggest proponents of this. They no longer have to interact with the masses between the old net and the dugout, including before games. Now it's relegated to the handful of people that can reach around the new net from the seats next to the dugout, kids who can reach the dugout roof and entice a player to interact from long distance plus anyone further down the line where nothing's changed - a place that most players don't end up visiting. This has to be a relief to a lot of guys.

So, what's going on in the minors? Does the safety of those spectators not count? Also, college and high school. This can't just stop with the majors because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Changing the netting approach seems to me an opportunity to open up a lot of potential litigation, including those folks who get hurt by a foul ball or flying bat that just clears the top or side of the new netting. I'm guessing that America's full of lawyers drooling at the prospect of citing MLB's new acknowledgement of the danger and their failure to extend netting a little higher and farther.
 

RIFan

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If all it takes to prevent getting hurt was to pay attention, why have they installed dugout fences over the last 20 years. Surely world class baseball players should have no worries about the ability to get out of the way.



(And yes I know this is a straw man)
 

joe dokes

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I don't know about "unreasonable", but the net is a serious change to the game experience from those seats, at least in my own opinion. When I purchase tickets to the Sox or any other baseball game, my prime goal is to get as close to the field as possible so that my kids or I can chat guys up pre-game, get a foul ball, get an autograph, have a ball tossed to us after an inning, or otherwise be engaged in a personal way. The net eliminates like half of those outcomes, and makes other ones harder.
.


When I go to a game, my "prime goal" is to watch a baseball game, and maybe chat up the stranger in the next seat about baseball (to find someone to keep score while I go take a leak). Ok, that was unnecessary snark, but it's no more ridiculous than "only people who dont pay attention get hurt," or "this is because of (not baseball fan-enough) baseball fans." And I still think youll be able to chat through a net.

As a concrete example, I would now prioritize getting close-up seats just beyond the net, whereas prior to this year, the seats closer to home plate would have been more desirable
So, what's the problem? I stopped sitting in Section 32 & 33 when it became beer free.

RIF--It's not *that* much of a strawman.
 

PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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It is a given that this is a "first world problem", but if I have paid money for season tickets with the expectation that I am outside of the screen by choice, then I would think that that some kind of consideration/refund option should be made available.
 

joe dokes

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That's why they have bulletproof glass enclosures around the on-deck circle .
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It is a given that this is a "first world problem", but if I have paid money for season tickets with the expectation that I am outside of the screen by choice, then I would think that that some kind of consideration/refund option should be made available.
That seems reasonable.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I've read "they'll never stop selling alcohol" several times in this thread and I get the what you're saying. In effect, it's an unreasonable expectation for several reasons, but what makes hanging a net unreasonable? (not your word, mine)
I think if there was data to support the need for a net, due to the incredible danger of not having one - maybe more people would be fine with it. I am not a proponent of changing everything because one thing happened once.

I don't want to pay $200 a ticket to sit behind the dugout to have a net in my face all game. I also do not want my alternative to be "oh well, go sit down the line, or in the OF (or grandstand, etc), or you will adjust to it eventually.

Maybe once I am there this April I will be less miserable about it - but for someone who has to make a large effort to get to games (from NJ, and run a nursing home which of course never closes), I am less than thrilled about some of the best seats in the park being ruined (IMO).
 

geoduck no quahog

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When I go to a game, my "prime goal" is to watch a baseball game, and maybe chat up the stranger in the next seat about baseball (to find someone to keep score while I go take a leak). Ok, that was unnecessary snark, but it's no more ridiculous than "only people who dont pay attention get hurt," or "this is because of (not baseball fan-enough) baseball fans." And I still think youll be able to chat through a net...
Just me: One of the rhythms of the game is (if you're fortunate enough to have landed "dangerous" seats) the routine where you talk, drink, daydream, etc. between pitches and then (particularly coordinated with the hand-ness of the batter) you stop everything for that 2 seconds that the pitch is thrown and pay close attention to the ball. Then you go back to picking your nose.

I know that makes me an old fart, because...I'm an old fart.

(whenever I scalp a good ticket and pay through the nose, I make absolutely certain it's not behind the net)
 

Lose Remerswaal

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It will be interesting to see what they do with the 4 gates to the field at Fenway (in front of the Field Boxes just inside each dugout and just outside the old net) so security can still get on/off the field before the game and during stoppages in play.
 

Max Power

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They won't need to get on the field there. All the fans that might come from that direction are caged behind the new net.
 

Harry Hooper

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They won't need to get on the field there. All the fans that might come from that direction are caged behind the new net.
Does raise an interesting tangent, though. Did Liverpool owner Henry think about the fact that fans behind the net now can't flee onto the field in the event of a fire or other issue in the stands?
 

geoduck no quahog

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Don't know for a fact, but I'd be surprised if outdoor bleachers or grandstand risers have any code requirements for fire egress. I'd think nothing is written down for potential riots.

How about Fenway non-baseball events. Will they be able to lower or stow the abominations for those type of things?
 

OCST

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The idea that you can 1. pay attention 100% of the time and 2. move out of the way of a liner or broken bat in time if you are paying attention is ludacrisp.

This is a common-sense defense to a danger that, while relatively unlikely to occur in any given AB, will happen occasionally; is potentially catastrophic, even fatal; and is easily preventable.

How often do planes crash? In how many subsets of plane crashes do the exit rows even come into play? So who needs them, right? Use that space for more seats or a wet bar or something. It's pussification, amirite?
 

MuzzyField

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Overreaction.
Escalators and alcohol kill more fans, and if stairs replaced the escalators more fans would die of heart attacks. This is a pacifier for the parents that bubble wrap their kids mitigate all risk crowd.
Have the spring training stadiums sporting the "normal" netting run out of body bags for the projectile bombardment fan casualties?
There are real risks in society that need to be addressed, this isn't one of them. Maybe we should all work from home, commuting is far more dangerous.
 

Laser Show

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The responses here are surprising to me. Seems like a nobrainer. Put in cheap netting to prevent unlikely but very possible foul ball or broken bat injuries. Why wouldn't you? I get nervous if I'm in those sections with an opposite handed hitter up. I honestly can't believe it doesn't happen more.
 

geoduck no quahog

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I think it comes down to this: there are those among us who think that a person who acknowledges danger should be able to experience that danger (as it long as it doesn't put someone else in harm's way). You wouldn't want to see a fence ringing the Grand Canyon because someone may fall in. I know that's an exaggeration, but people should be allowed to hurt themselves if they want (I've told the story about an Italian girlfriend who saw a sign on her first visit here prohibiting trespass on a jetty in NY and how she was shocked when I told her it was so no one could walk out and drown. "Are Americans all babies?").

Now I could understand it if there was a big demand from the paying public, that there weren't enough seats behind the existing net where they wanted protection. Then owner's would be justified in increasing the quantity of those seats.

This isn't a battle worth fighting about. No one I know complained about the existing netting - they just chose to sit elsewhere if they wanted. It's more about the rationale and how far this could all go before it stops. We saw those photos of stadiums in Japan where the net is foul pole to foul pole. There are better fights to be had over other safety over-reactions that have nothing to do with sports or tickets.
 

Manuel Aristides

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As a season ticket holder in FB 50, for years the first section NOT covered by netting on the 3B side... I am bummed. The free and clear access to the field was a rush every time. So, selfishly, I do sort of hate this. There's no way it didn't just reduce the aesthetic and financial value of my seats. And I do wish I had learned about it in an email from the sox and not on this forum

But... it's just one of those things. It's too obvious an idea to not iimplement There's no arguing with the reasoning: whether you agree or not with the decision (personally I begrudgingly do), the move to protect the people who love the game, and the financial interests of those who finance the game is pretty much a slam dunk easy decision. The only people who might be peeved are people like me who, let's be real, aren't going anywhere. Maybe they won't increase ticket prices as an apology (HA!)

So it goes, guys. It's really not a big deal. It's netting. If you think this is bad wait until you see football in 2020.
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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So...
Do none of you have screen doors or windows?
Sure we do. We just don't watch baseball games we paid $200 a ticket for through them. I am in my office right now looking out the windows. Guess which window has the shittier view? Hint, it's the one that has the screen.

I feel awful for anyone who actually has these tickets as their season tickets. I can't imagine they will sell for a fraction of what they used to sell for on the secondary market. Not to mention the fact that they went from having some of the greatest seats in baseball to, well, not having that.
 

DJnVa

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Does raise an interesting tangent, though. Did Liverpool owner Henry think about the fact that fans behind the net now can't flee onto the field in the event of a fire or other issue in the stands?
So, if someone wants to pull out stats on how often someone is hit by a foul ball, is it good form to pull out a "fires in baseball stadium" stat now?
 

MuzzyField

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The ability to pay attention is becoming a lost art in our world.
MLB requiring more netting is just another relatively small example.
Hell, cars are now designed to stop and avoid accidents without driver input. Up next, autopilot!
This is a proactive PR move by MLB. The paying customers will soon get to vote on whether this minimal increase in safety is worth any sacrifice in the game watching experience. Maybe the data is overwhelming that the majority of people sitting in these seats simply don't give a fuck about watching a baseball game and need to be protected.
I'd expect netting technology to improve significantly to reduce the visual impact pretty quickly. It must.
If MLB or any other sports entity wanted to really improve fan safety, excess alcohol consumption would be a better starting point. The booze induced carnage at sporting events is far more prevalent and damaging, but oh so profitable.
 

Guapos Toenails

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It will be interesting to see what they do with the 4 gates to the field at Fenway (in front of the Field Boxes just inside each dugout and just outside the old net) so security can still get on/off the field before the game and during stoppages in play.

They moved the one by the Sox dugout. It is now right where the manager usually sits. At the bottom of the picture you can see that they "filled in" the old gate and it will now be wall.


The other gates are still there, but the net comes down to the wall. Imagine CHB having to do the limbo to get on the field...I noticed on TV that Jet Blue has a frame like a screen door where these gates are...I imagine Fenway will build frames and doors so nobody throws their backs out getting onto the field...
 

Fred not Lynn

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So, what's going on in the minors? Does the safety of those spectators not count? Also, college and high school. This can't just stop with the majors because that's a lawsuit waiting to happen.
My general observation is that at lower levels of pro ball, the nets cover more space than at the major leagues...because nets cost less than baseballs (I once was sitting with an independent league gm as a player fouled off 4 or 5 pitches on the way to a broken bat single, and he said, "damn, that's a $200 single").

And at high school and some college a net at all is a luxury - usually you're looking through chain link.

Personally, I think it's nice for skilled professionals to have a little something as a buffer between them and a bunch of people who want to insert themselves while they prepare for and perform incredibly difficult athletic tasks.
 

joe dokes

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Personally, I think it's nice for skilled professionals to have a little something as a buffer between them and a bunch of people who want to insert themselves while they prepare for and perform incredibly difficult athletic tasks.
We talking about Fenway or The Naked i?
 

NJ_Sox_Fan

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I wonder how badly the view of home plate and pitchers mound will now suck from the seats down the RF line where you already had to look left the entire time? Surely the view is better through a net looking straight on, then at an angle right?