Not exactly sure what we're talking about transcending, but if I want to build a winning team, give me Davis, Towns, Antetokounmpo and PG13 everyday of the week over Irving, Harden or Westbrook (especially Irving, who has yet to show he can be the centerpiece a team that doesn't stink). At minimum, I don't remotely see how those last three belong in a different (higher) category from the first four.
True enough. Davis is worth alot more, and maybe he's not available at any price. But Ainge should make the call. Same with Porzingis. And I view Bradley, Crowder and Fultz (or Ball) as the foundation of a very attractive package for a team like NO or NY.
Ainge is right. I assume that isn't Danny's list -- Kyrie doesn't belong, and Wall is as good as he's likely to get -- but you're basically looking at six guys, with Davis, Towns, and Giannis having a chance to get to that level. So when I say I wouldn't trade Fultz unless it meant landing a top-10 talent, those are the guys I'm talking about.
Anthony Davis isn't getting traded for multiple reasons. This isn't a useful conversation.
Draft Fultz, renounce Olynyk, sign Hayward, deal Isaiah & the 2018 Brooklyn pick (and a few picks of our own?) for BPA (Davis, Porzingis, Butler, etc.):
The issue is that his cap hold counts on the books unless he is renounced (at which point the C's would lose any matching rights), and the hold will actually be around $7.5 mil, so between that and the #1 pick's salary of around $7mil (not to mention Zizic and/or Yabusele) you're already at a place where the haircut Hayward would have to take to come here becomes more of a butchering.
That seems to be true. But I would still take him over Saric.
So we could push Olynyk to move fast on soliciting his RFA offers, and if it's attractive enough, work out a couple-years' deal with him. But let's suppose we get lucky and he's willing to take something at the low end of that range, like $9 for 3 yrs. And we trade Smart. Does that leave us having to move Bradley as well in order to clear enough space?
In general it's the opposite, unless they plan on renouncing him they need Olynyk to wait to sign any contract until after they sign a max FA so they can extend him over the cap.
Just to clarify: I'm I'm asked to sell the farm and build a winning team around one player, and my list is:
Who are you adding instead? Given the upcoming raises to current players on the team, they will soon be capped out anyway, so if you don't take the opportunity to add a max FA now, you pretty much lose it forever unless you're letting a bunch of guys walk for nothing.
I'm not certain about what you're asking but if you're asking why people aren't discussing trading the pick to a non-Laker team that wants Ball, basically the issue is that there is no non-Laker team would realistically give up anything close to what the pick is worth to the Cs. The only way it would be worth it to the Cs is if the Cs got a top-10-ish player back, and no one with a top 10-ish player is going to trade that player for Ball.
Thanks for the input. I was curious about the possibility of moving the pick to other teams who might be interested in Ball. I can't see Ainge wanting any part of the Ball circus given the time and effort he's put into turning the franchise around, but wondered what additional value (if any) Ball might bring to that # 1 slot. Of course there is the other side of the coin as I also can't see the old man changing his act anytime soon and might become even more disruptive if Ball doesn't go to the Lakers so that probably negates my previous thought.
This is good news to me. I agree nearly word for word with what he said there.
Westbrook is certainly "transcendent" in a lot of senses of the word. But if I'm selling off assets for a player to build a team around — which is sort of the topic here — I'd probably put him last, or at best #6 above Kyrie. I just think it's hard to build a great team around a 6'-3" hyper-ball-dominant PG who isn't a great shooter or a good defender. Kyrie at least checks the "great shooter" box, which gives you some versatility in terms of playing him off ball, or in a motion offense.
I look to trade No. 1 in a package for a star-- preferably a tall star. Failing that, I make the pick, try to retain Olynyk for reasonable money and add a veteran big like Z-bo or Monroe.
Does Houston have anything we'd want for Bradley? Seems like he'd be a perfect fit there with his defense and shooting alongside Harden.
No dog in this fight, but I think Westbrook is a superduperstar, who almost singlehandedly could make a team a playoff team, but he's not transcendent in that he cannot do what LeBron did and take a team of nobodies to the NBA finals. I'd take him over Harden and for sure over Kyrie. Kyrie isn't in the class of those other two guys. And all of them, IMO, are below Greek Freak, Davis, Towns, and I think George and Westbrook are similar (in my view Westbrook is better but it's close). Butler would fit in just below George and Harden, and well above Kyrie.
0.0% of me wants anything to do with Ball.
Westbrook is clearly a ball dominant player and a volume scorer. He also is one of the hardest playing guys in the entire league - night in and night out, and play in and play out, he gives max effort. He also, along with his volume scoring, averaged double digit assists. OKC, despite losing probably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the world (depending on how you rate Durant vs. Curry), averaged only 3 1/2 points fewer this year than last (106.6 vs. 110.2). Despite only averaging 34.6 minutes per game, the guy averaged 31.6 points, 10.7 rebounds, and 10.4 assists, along with 1.6 steals a game.
I don't think this is necessarily true. If the Lakers really want Ball, picking Fultz second would save the Celtics about $750k against the cap this year. But, if we assume both teams preferences are fairly known, there is similarly no reason for the Lakers to trade. All else equal, it's better to draft your guy later in the draft, not earlier.
See, this is one reason I don't think you can dismiss out of hand the idea of moving down. Grousbeck is right that with today's NBA, you really need that transcendental player. But the problem is, these are still 19- and 20-year-old kids -- they're all potential -- and it's not certain who that player (or players) is in this class. If you're pretty sure Fultz is that guy, then definitely you draft him. But if the Celtics crunch all the metrics and scouting reports and wind up with Fultz ranked about the same -- maybe a little above or a little below -- two or three other guys, the calculus changes. For instance nbadraft.net gives Ball a score of 99, Fultz a 100 and Jackson a 100. There's just a hair between them. (This is just an example; I'm not saying nbadraft.net is the best authority on their ability.)
Olynyk and one of Monroe/ZBo will probably cost you in the 30M range you don't want to spend on Hayward.
Let us know when Butler is enough to close the gap to Lebron and/or the Warriors.
