the Red Sox Mount Rushmore

[MentalDisabldLst]

Athlon Sports has a feature up giving Mt Rushmores for each of the 30 MLB teams.  Here is the one for the Red Sox.  All arguments about "listacles" and "clickbait" are valid, but I thought the concept would make for good discussion on this board.
 
Who are the 4 players who belong on the Red Sox Mt Rushmore?  Factors may include performance with the team, length of time with the team relative to time on other teams, HOF status, iconic status or moments, or just WAR for the team (lists for: position players and pitchers), or anything else you want to argue for.  Have at it.
 
I personally think that their first 3 choices are inarguable, certainly their first 2, but I have a hard time with their last choice (who is 7th on the above B-Ref list).  I'd prefer someone from the early days of the franchise like Cronin or Speaker or Young.  Clemens also deserves serious consideration, since the game is more than just hitting.
 
What does SoSH think?

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

That article is invalid because nowhere does the name Pedro Martinez appear.  I'm fine with the argument that perhaps he's not a top 4 guy, but to not even be included in the honorable mentions is a crime against humanity.

 

[snowmanny]

I voted Williams, Yaz, Pedro and Ortiz and I did not have any hesitation doing so.  Yet one of my guys isn't even on their list of 13 they consider.
 
Edit: What Red said

 

[finnVT]

Yeah, that's insane.  I was about to post that I thought Williams, Yaz and Pedro were the easy 3.  I went with Speaker #4 mostly to get another era (in which the Sox had a huge amount of success) represented, rather than any comparison of production to ortiz/manny/rice.

 

[twothousandone]

That article is invalid because nowhere does the name Pedro Martinez appear.  I'm fine with the argument that perhaps he's not a top 4 guy, but to not even be included in the honorable mentions is a crime against humanity.

What he said.
 
And to keep unwarranted clicks from going there, they selected Williams, Yastrzemski, Rice and Ortiz.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Athlon Sports has a feature up giving Mt Rushmores for each of the 30 MLB teams.  Here is the one for the Red Sox.  All arguments about "listacles" and "clickbait" are valid, but I thought the concept would make for good discussion on this board.
 
Who are the 4 players who belong on the Red Sox Mt Rushmore?  Factors may include performance with the team, length of time with the team relative to time on other teams, HOF status, iconic status or moments, or just WAR for the team (lists for: position players and pitchers), or anything else you want to argue for.  Have at it.
 
I personally think that their first 3 choices are inarguable, certainly their first 2, but I have a hard time with their last choice (who is 7th on the above B-Ref list).  I'd prefer someone from the early days of the franchise like Cronin or Speaker or Young.  Clemens also deserves serious consideration, since the game is more than just hitting.
 
What does SoSH think?

No argument with Williams, Yaz and Ortiz. I would rate Evans (and a bunch of other guys) ahead of Rice. I think it comes down to Speaker, Boggs and Clemens. And I can't bring myself to vote for anyone who ended up playing a significant time with the MFY so Speaker it is.

[ edit: of course it's Pedro .. Brain cramp]

 

[Laser Show]

Yaz and Ted are givens. Ortiz, I think, is inarguable when you look at what he's accomplished and how he's changed the narrative of the franchise.
 
The last one, I'm torn between Cy Young and Pedro. My head says Young - one of the all-time greats, represents another era, led the franchise to its first championship, pitched in the first World Series, award named after him. But my heart says Pedro. I ended up voting Young, but either makes sense.

 

[Bergs]

Williams, Yaz, Ortiz, Matt Young.
 
The 4th pick is a bitch...torn between Pedro, Rice, Evans, Clemens, Boggs, Conigliaro, Pesky, Speaker, Foxx, and Pedroia. So Matt Young it is!

 

[rembrat]

The last one, I'm torn between Cy Young and Pedro. My head says Young - one of the all-time greats, represents another era, led the franchise to its first championship, pitched in the first World Series, award named after him. But my heart says Pedro. I ended up voting Young, but either makes sense.

 
See, I still don't think that's enough to choose Young over Pedro. 

 

[Doug Beerabelli]

I went with Speaker over Pedro to bring in that era. Papi over Pedro due to 3 WS, playoff heroics and this being his f'in city. Yaz and Williams, of course.

My heart and my eyes would choose Pedro over Speaker.

 

[8slim]

Yeah, that's insane.  I was about to post that I thought Williams, Yaz and Pedro were the easy 3.  I went with Speaker #4 mostly to get another era (in which the Sox had a huge amount of success) represented, rather than any comparison of production to ortiz/manny/rice.

 
I voted for the same four, and went with Speaker since he was on the '12 and '15 World Series champs and I think it'd be odd to not have someone to represent that dominant era.
 
Interesting that despite winning 4 titles in just 7 seasons there weren't any great players that played on all those championship clubs.
 
I could be talked into adding Ortiz in place of Speaker, though.

 

[ivanvamp]

Everyone is going to have his or her own criteria for this.  So I feel quite free to go with whomever I darned well please.  And I'm happy to give a justification for it.
 
Ted Williams.  The only absolute no-brainer of the group, IMO.  Inarguable.  One of the all-time, inner-circle, greatest players in history, played his whole career for the Red Sox.  A baseball icon.  
 
Carl Yastrzemski.  He is not really an icon, but he had a HOF career, spent all with Boston.  Won an MVP and a Triple Crown.  Not an inner-circle all-time great, but nonetheless a great, great player.  
 
Now it gets harder for me.  In the running:  Cy Young, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, David Ortiz, Jim Rice, Johnny Pesky, Dustin Pedroia.  Here's the short-version case for each one, as I see it.
 
Young:  All-time great pitcher.  For crying out loud, they named the award after the guy.  
 
Pedro:  Greatest pitcher I've ever seen.  Didn't play that long in a Sox uniform, but when he was at his best, there has been nobody better in the history of the sport.
 
Clemens:  Put together probably the greatest total pitching package the Sox' organization has ever seen.  Lots to dislike about Roger, but there's no denying the impact he had on the club.  An inner-circle all-time great pitcher.
 
Ortiz:  Three WS titles, incredible post-season (and regular season) performer.  Face of the franchise for a full decade now.  
 
Rice:  MVP, HOFer, never won a WS but played his whole career with Boston.  
 
Pesky:  Not the player that the other guys on this list are, but was an icon for the franchise.
 
Pedroia:  Probably too soon for him to be on this list, but he has won two WS titles, a ROY, an MVP, and is the epitome of what we want Sox' players to be.
 
So all that said, I'm going to go with Ortiz and Pedro.  Probably because they are two of my all-time favorite players (Pedro far and away #1).  
 
So:  Williams, Yaz, Ortiz, Pedro.  My Sox' Mount Rushmore.

 

[DavidTai]

Williams, Yaz, Pedro were easy, I had to stop and think about the fourth before going with Ortiz. Speaker would've been my fifth if we had a fifth, since I couldn't decide. In retrospect, 8slim's rationale that we should have another era represented makes me wish I had gone with Speaker instead.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Williams, Yaz, Pedro, Papi.
 
Pretty easy

 

[ifmanis5]

Yaz, Teddy, Pedro & Ortiz are an easy choice for me.
 
We should also have a Bizarro or anti-Rushmore list and this is a much harder decision. I would have Stan Papi, Carl Everett, Ramiro Mendoza and Julio Lugo. So many others though.

 

[Laser Show]

 
See, I still don't think that's enough to choose Young over Pedro. 

 
It mostly came down to trying to get another era represented.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Yaz, Teddy, Pedro & Ortiz are an easy choice for me.
 
We should also have a Bizarro or anti-Rushmore list and this is a much harder decision. I would have Stan Papi, Carl Everett, Ramiro Mendoza and Julio Lugo. So many others though.

Danny Cater says hello

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

On the question of pitchers, the problem with Pedro (and I can't believe I'm saying this) is that he only spent 7 years here.  He accumulated enough WAR to be the 3rd pitcher in career WAR for the Sox, but is well behind Clemens and Cy Young.
 
Likewise for Ortiz.  I mean, compare Dewey Evans if you can't stand people who ever signed with the Yankees... or Bobby Doerr.  The real argument for Ortiz is postseason and Ringzzzzz, and using that as a basis to declare someone one of the 4 most iconic Red Sox, those who symbolize the franchise, feels dirty in light of how long we made fun of MFY fans for doing so.
 
I see Cronin as a unique case.  As a player, his 11 years and 30 WAR for the Sox was respectable, HOF-level, but not probably Rushmore material.  But then add to it that he was a star (player-)manager, including the 1946 team, general manager from 47-58, and league President 58-73.  After being bought by the club as a player, he was a lifelong Bostonian, buried in Barnstable.  No person other than Ted Williams or Tom Yawkey had a greater impact on the team over their lifetime.  Is that enough to bump someone else off the pedestal?  Not sure, but he's the only name who might deserve it partly for things done after his playing days.

 

[ifmanis5]

Danny Cater says hello

Yup, that's a really good one. Too many to choose from, really.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I voted Williams, Yaz, Pedro and Ortiz and I did not have any hesitation doing so.  Yet one of my guys isn't even on their list of 13 they consider.

 
Yup. All four of these guys were basically impossible to omit.
 
There were some very tough guys to omit, particularly Speaker, Fisk and Boggs. As well as a couple of guys that probably should have been hard to omit, but weren't, like Clemens.
 
But basically, Williams is a no-brainer, Yaz is a no-brainer, Ortiz has been the heart and soul of three championship teams, and Pedro is the best pitcher in history and one of the 25.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
I voted for the same four, and went with Speaker since he was on the '12 and '15 World Series champs and I think it'd be odd to not have someone to represent that dominant era.
 
Interesting that despite winning 4 titles in just 7 seasons there weren't any great players that played on all those championship clubs.
 
 

 
 
 
 
:bill-throwing:

 

[Omar's Wacky Neighbor]

 
Carl Yastrzemski.  He is not really an icon, 
 

 
That bag of Yaz Bread in the back of my freezer begs to differ.  Of course, I'm Polish and grew up in Peabody, so the pecking order at St. Joe's was:  God, Yaz, then the Pope.

 

[DJnVa]

 
Likewise for Ortiz.  I mean, compare Dewey Evans if you can't stand people who ever signed with the Yankees... or Bobby Doerr.  The real argument for Ortiz is postseason and Ringzzzzz, and using that as a basis to declare someone one of the 4 most iconic Red Sox, those who symbolize the franchise, feels dirty in light of how long we made fun of MFY fans for doing so.
 

 
Just....no.

 

[MrNewEngland]

I can't imagine Williams or Pedro not being on everyone's list.  After that I can see some debate.  
 
I went with Ortiz but I may be swayed that way because I have been alive to see his greatness.  
 
With my fourth vote I went with Yaz - honestly because he was a cradle to grave player and didn't play anywhere else.  

 

[Yazdog8]

Williams, Yaz, Pedro and Papi. 

 

[E5 Yaz]

Ted, Yaz, Clemens, Papi
 
Ted and Yaz are obvious
 
Papi because he is the one who represents the WS championship stretch better than any other player
 
It came down to Pedro and Clemens
 
I went with Clemens because he, Rice and Evans were the best players who bridged that era between Yaz and the titles, and were the "faces of the team" (hate it, but it is a Mount Rushmore) for that span. Of those three, Clemens was the best player. That he also best represents the dysfunctional nature and obsessive relationship within and around the team also came into play. A Red Sox Mount Rushmore that doesn't include a love/hate figure feels incomplete

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

Just....no.

 
OK, let's hear the case for Ortiz vs Boggs, Doerr, Evans, Rice, and Speaker, that isn't based on titles or postseason.
 
I'll start:
 
Player, Years in Boston, WAR in Boston
Wade Boggs, 11 yrs, 71.6
Dwight Evans, 19 yrs, 66.2
Tris Speaker, 9 yrs, 55.4
Bobby Doerr, 14 yrs, 51.2
Jim Rice, 16 yrs, 47.4
David Ortiz, 12 yrs, 43.6
 
You have guys who were here longer (Doerr, Evans, Rice), guys who accumulated more WAR (all of them), guys who averaged better seasons while here (Boggs & Speaker by a mile, Doerr by a hair).  I don't think this ends the argument, but I think it's hard to really distinguish Ortiz among that group, at least for on-field stuff.

 

[Mighty Joe Young]

Yup, that's a really good one. Too many to choose from, really.

And the immortal Larry Anderson

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

With a full acknowledgement of recency bias at play, Williams, Yaz, Papi and Pedro.  Williams and Yaz are the two most iconic names in the history of the franchise and are so far into no-brainer territory they don't really need an explanation.  Papi has been here for three championships.  The only three I've been alive to see.  And he's been incredibly awesome in the playoffs, specifically the World Series, during his career.  Pedro beats out Clemens and Cy Young because Pedro reignited my love for baseball and the Red Sox.  By the time I graduated high school in 1997, I had shifted my sports interests pretty heavily to basketball and football.  The strike in 1994 had a lot to do with that.
 
Pedro's starts were almost immediately must watch television and the first real step toward the Red Sox finally getting over the hump and winning a title.  He is such a big part of the reason the fan base has been as healthy as it's been over the last 15+ years.

 

[edoug]

Williams, Yaz,Ortiz and Pesky. I can't think of anyone who represented the Red Sox any better and deserved the honor better than Johnny. 

 

[8slim]

 
 
 
 
 

 
Ahem, I said "great" players:
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hoopeha01.shtml

 

[Leather]

If Teddy Roosevelt (who was a good President, but not one on a level with the other three in terms of historical significance) can get on Mt. Rushmore, I am damn sure comfortable putting Ortiz and Pedro (and Yaz and, obviously, Ted) on the Red Sox Rushmore, even with their supposed shortcomings.
 
If there is a place to consider factors such as "Significance to the Franchise" and "Championships Delivered", it's here.  Stats are not the end-all and be-all of being a fan of a sports team; they are merely a means to an end of rooting for a successful franchise.  If the Red Sox Mt. Rushmore is a monument to Red Sox successes, choosing players based solely on stats is completely wrong-headed. 

 

[CarolinaBeerGuy]

I voted Williams, Yaz, Clemens and Papi. Leaving off Pedro was tough.

 

[SumnerH]

Ted, Yaz, Clemens, Papi
 
Ted and Yaz are obvious
 
Papi because he is the one who represents the WS championship stretch better than any other player
 
It came down to Pedro and Clemens
 
I went with Clemens because he, Rice and Evans were the best players who bridged that era between Yaz and the titles, and were the "faces of the team" (hate it, but it is a Mount Rushmore) for that span. Of those three, Clemens was the best player. That he also best represents the dysfunctional nature and obsessive relationship within and around the team also came into play. A Red Sox Mount Rushmore that doesn't include a love/hate figure feels incomplete

 
I think that's my selection as well: Ted, Yaz, Clemens, Papi.
 
I'm really on the fence about Pedro (who would replace Clemens, obviously)--he was the greatest I've seen, and had some of the greatest seasons ever, and was key to building toward and achieving the championship team.  He also played less than half his career for Boston.  I can't take Speaker or Young because they probably should be on the Indians' and Spiders' mountains instead.  But Pedro played enough different places that it was a plurality of his games in Boston.  And Clemens is a douche, and Pedro is awesome.  But Clemens also played twice as long here and was the face of the franchise (along with Boggs) for quite a long time.  I dunno, tough call.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Can we at least agree that Mt. Rushmore is a shitty monument? Hell, the Lakota were able to fit six grandfathers on the thing before it was vandalized.

 

[tomdeplonty]

Another for Williams, Yaz, Pedro and Papi.

 

[DavidTai]

You know, I'd love to see a photoshop of the final poll, whenever that is, just so I can have it as a wallpaper.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

If Teddy Roosevelt (who was a good President, but not one on a level with the other three in terms of historical significance) can get on Mt. Rushmore, I am damn sure comfortable putting Ortiz and Pedro (and Yaz and, obviously, Ted) on the Red Sox Rushmore, even with their supposed shortcomings.
 
If there is a place to consider factors such as "Significance to the Franchise" and "Championships Delivered", it's here.  Stats are not the end-all and be-all of being a fan of a sports team; they are merely a means to an end of rooting for a successful franchise.  If the Red Sox Mt. Rushmore is a monument to Red Sox successes, choosing players based solely on stats is completely wrong-headed. 

 
I agree, I just wanted to imagine DrewDawg's head exploding.
 
My votes were for Cronin and Clemens.  Clemens was the face of the franchise for a decade plus, much like Ortiz, but was also its best player pretty much throughout, and happens to have been the most valuable pitcher the Red Sox have had.  My heart wants to put in Pedro or Ortiz in lieu of Clemens, but my head calls that recency bias.

 

[MentalDisabldLst]

You know, I'd love to see a photoshop of the final poll, whenever that is, just so I can have it as a wallpaper.

 
I don't think Cy Young is catching Ortiz, so you can have BrandonChristensen start on that as soon as you convince him

 

[AbbyNoho]

Young, Williams, Yastrzemski, and Ortiz
 
Pedro is so close you almost have to add another face, but that's my four. 
 

 
 
OK, let's hear the case for Ortiz vs Boggs, Doerr, Evans, Rice, and Speaker, that isn't based on titles or postseason.
 
 

 
That seems like a silly thing to exclude.
 
Edit: I see you've addressed that already. Sorry.

 

[jose melendez]

I went Williams, Yaz, Pedro and Speaker.  I wanted to pick Papi, I really did, but it's pretty hard not to have someone from the olden days.  And for the championship era, as great a Papi is, Pedro is the best I have ever seen.

 

[jose melendez]

Rasputin--defend your insane Pudge Fisk pick.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Williams and Yaz are obvious. 
 
After that it's a mess.  If you had an unlimited list of spots to fill, I think the next most iconic/valuable player in the franchise is Clemens.  Cy Young has greater career WAR but he wasn't in Boston his whole career.  Yet Clemens has too much baggage.  So Cy Young.  Or Boggs.  Except we start getting into dealing with the player in isolation v. the success of the club when they had the player.  Do we give extra Rushmore credit for players who stayed here their whole career, or are uniquely Red Sox?
 
I went with Cy (as emblematic of an early franchise icon) and Ortiz (as emblematic of the 2000 Sox).  Pedro could also fill the 2000 Sox icon role, but Ortiz is more appropriate due to the post season heroics in 3 world series.  

 

[maxotaur]

In psychology there is a well known phenomenon of the "recency effect". It's why whenever I'm offered several options for a job interview I try to pick the last.

I'm by no means suggesting our players of the past few decades (ex - Pedro, Papi, etc.) aren't worthy choices. Just something to keep in mind when considering the field.

 

[jose melendez]

Putting Clemens on is like having Jefferson Davis on Mt. Rushmore.

 

[Harry Hooper]

 
Ahem, I said "great" players:
 
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hoopeha01.shtml

 
no respect!   [/Dangerfield]

 

[maxotaur]

Putting Clemens on is like having Jefferson Davis on Mt. Rushmore.

A more perfect analogy has never been made.

 

[RetractableRoof]

I think I'd go with Williams, Yaz, Pedro & Ortiz.   If I were to consider replacing any of them, it would be Ortiz.  But in the end, this is our F'n city... and that face of the franchise moment along with years of in and post season heroics makes him the front runner.  Having said that I was a huge Evans and Rice fan as well as Fisk, etc.  I guess if I piled all those iconic moments on a scale, the Ortiz side is heavier and that makes him Rushmore worthy.
 

Carl Yastrzemski.  He is not really an icon, but he had a HOF career, spent all with Boston.  Won an MVP and a Triple Crown.  Not an inner-circle all-time great, but nonetheless a great, great player.  

I like how you rationalized all your points... one point from here though - I don't know when you were born - but Yaz was iconic in every way for his time.  Every kid who watched Yaz play practiced the left handed pinwheel of the bat and the classic swing.  Even the the righties.  That doesn't count the bread, it doesn't count the Impossible Dream song, it doesn't count the commercials, all of it.  Perhaps he's lost his iconic shine over the years because he was always in Williams shadow in spring training, etc.  He also seems to much prefer to be out of the limelight versus caring about the title of "Greatest living hitter".
 
Don't disagree with the rest of your logic, just that one 'iconic' statement.

 

[canderson]

Williams, Yaz, Ortiz, Young

Williams is the best hitter to ever walk this planet.

Yaz is Boston.

Ortiz played a massive, unreplaceable role to bring Boston THREE titles. THREE. Close your eyes and tell your grandfather that'll happen and imagine the results.

Young because longevity, his career is other-worldly and they name the give the best pitcher each season an award with his name. You need someone to represent the old times as well.

I love Pedro as much as anyone here. But for this I have to go with Cy Young. Pedro can be the Red Sox' Statue of Liberty.

 

[Drocca]

I am really surprised at the lack of Boggs support. I know it's a function of my age but he is a huge part of my personal Red Sox story and fandom.

I sent him a vote just to get some support for the dude.