The Red Sox will retire Wade Boggs’ number on May 26

[drbretto]

So... Serious question here. *Is* Boggs a jerk? Or did he say "wow, winning is awesome!" after leaving the Sox and winning with the Yankees, and we were all in full-on perpetual loser mode and considered that a betrayal? Because I've not seen any indication that he's a jerk other than riding that horse. He's worn a Red Sox cap in every appearance I've seen him in, and has always spoken highly of the team and its fans. I realize that some of that is just saying the right things in front of the camera, but is there actual evidence of him actually being a jerk?

Clemens was a jerk. Clemens picked a side and that side was the Yankees. I get that hate. I don't get this one. Again, other than the horse thing. And frankly, that had nothing to do with the horse. It had everything to do with him winning with the Yankees and not with the Sox.

 

[RIFan]

He had been one of my favorite players on the Red Sox and when he switched teams I was 10 years old, so my view then of Boggs leaving was I CAN'T BELIEVE HE BETRAYED US AND PLAYED FOR THE BAD GUYS. Having not really thought about him much since then my initial reaction to him having his number retired was "ew, gross," but reading posts in this thread has convinced me I should look at this a bit more rationally.

Luis Tiant is beloved by Red Sox nation. He signed with the Yankees a month after the end of the fabled 1978 season at the pinnacle of the Sox - Yankees rivalry. Time heals all wounds.

 

[phenweigh]

One of those years he only swung and missed 5 times ...

What sticks out in my mind about Boggs was his uncanny ability to foul balls off with two strikes until he got a pitch he could put in play. I poked around baseball-reference and fangraphs but couldn't find career leaders in pitches per plate appearance, as that would bring some objective evidence to my subjective memory.

For all his faults, work ethic wasn't one of them. He turned himself into a pretty good defender. He finished his career with 12.9 defensive WAR, good for 147th on the all-time list.

 

[RIFan]

Numbers don't lie, facade isn't complete without 26.

Category	Rank	Stat
WAR Position Players	3	71.6
Offensive WAR	3	63
Defensive WAR	9	10.6
Batting Average	2	0.338
On-Base%	3	0.428
On-Base Plus Slugging	9	0.89
Games Played	8	1625
At Bats	8	6213
Plate Appearances	8	7323
Runs Scored	7	1067
Hits	5	2098
Total Bases	7	2869
Doubles	5	422
Bases on Balls	5	1004
Singles	3	1544
Adjusted OPS+	6	142
Runs Created	6	1270
Adj. Batting Runs	4	428
Adj. Batting Wins	4	41.5
Extra Base Hits	7	554
Times On Base	5	3124
Offensive Win %	5	0.727
Sacrifice Flies	5	61
Intentional Bases on Balls	3	150
Double Plays Grounded Into	7	163
Outs Made	8	4389
Base-Out Runs Added (RE24)	4	410.26
Win Probability Added (WPA)	4	34.6
Situ. Wins Added (WPA/LI)	5	35.6
Base-Out Wins Added (REW)	4	39.1

Edit: Not sure why there is so much space before the table.

 

[grimshaw]

Reposting JoePo's Boggs article when he was counting down his top 100 players of all time. I can't believe Boggs never got one first place MVP vote in his whole career.
http://joeposnanski.com/no-52-wade-boggs/

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Numbers don't lie, facade isn't complete without 26.

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Wade Boggs doesn't have the numbers. I think that what people are arguing is that Wade Boggs' number retirement doesn't seem "right" to them. And I'm the latter camp. At the end of the day, every number retirement is a publicity/money grab and it really doesn't affect the way that I view the game in a day-to-day manner. Brock Holt losing his number is not going to keep me up at night but at the very least, these things should be special.

This is the perfect example of things that most of us laugh at: "intangibles" and "aura" and bullshit like that make a stronger case than numbers. Because if it's just about having the numbers (which don't lie!) then let's just create a benchmark for hitters and pitchers and whomever crosses those lines are thrown up on the facade, no questions asked. But, if we're being honest, then you have to take into consideration what he meant to the fanbase. And yes, Ted Williams was a creep of the highest order, but he also had a very strong and very special connection to Boston. Same with Yaz. Same with Pedro and Fisk and Rice and Pesky and Doerr and I guess Cronin. I lived through the Wade Boggs era and speaking for myself, I don't have that connection to Boggs as I do to Pedro or Rice (who were the only retired numbers active in my baseball years). And it has nothing to do with Boggs joining the Yankees.

And if I'm being true to myself, I'd say that I think Roger Clemens deserves the honor more than Boggs.

Back in 2009 (holy shit!) SoSH did a Top 100 Red Sox of All-Time poll and Boggs ranked eighth -- which is pretty good. But there are still four guys ahead of him who haven't had their numbers retired. Though to be fair two of those guys never wore numbers. Like I said, I never doubted Boggs' numbers. At all. He's an amazing, first ballot Hall of Famer but he wouldn't be my first choice to put up on the facade.

 

[joe dokes]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Wade Boggs doesn't have the numbers. I think that what people are arguing is that Wade Boggs' number retirement doesn't seem "right" to them. And I'm the latter camp. At the end of the day, every number retirement is a publicity/money grab and it really doesn't affect the way that I view the game in a day-to-day manner. Brock Holt losing his number is not going to keep me up at night but at the very least, these things should be special.

This is the perfect example of things that most of us laugh at: "intangibles" and "aura" and bullshit like that make a stronger case than numbers. Because if it's just about having the numbers (which don't lie!) then let's just create a benchmark for hitters and pitchers and whomever crosses those lines are thrown up on the facade, no questions asked. But, if we're being honest, then you have to take into consideration what he meant to the fanbase. And yes, Ted Williams was a creep of the highest order, but he also had a very strong and very special connection to Boston. Same with Yaz. Same with Pedro and Fisk and Rice and Pesky and Doerr and I guess Cronin. I lived through the Wade Boggs era and speaking for myself, I don't have that connection to Boggs as I do to Pedro or Rice (who were the only retired numbers active in my baseball years). And it has nothing to do with Boggs joining the Yankees.

And if I'm being true to myself, I'd say that I think Roger Clemens deserves the honor more than Boggs.

Back in 2009 (holy shit!) SoSH did a Top 100 Red Sox of All-Time poll and Boggs ranked eighth -- which is pretty good. But there are still four guys ahead of him who haven't had their numbers retired. Though to be fair two of those guys never wore numbers. Like I said, I never doubted Boggs' numbers. At all. He's an amazing, first ballot Hall of Famer but he wouldn't be my first choice to put up on the facade.

I get what you're saying. Not a lot of people "went to the game to see Wade Boggs." But I think that in the case of someone as great as Boggs was, the "intangibles," unless they are truly heinous, don't outweigh the HoF career. But I do think -- as with Pesky and others -- that the intangibles or beloved-ness should carry considerable weight. Put another way, if Jack Morris was with the RedSox, I'd be all for retiring his number, but the only way he should get into the HoF is buying a ticket.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

Great player, but I've never forgiven him for his defense of Pitt the Elder.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Wade Boggs doesn't have the numbers. I think that what people are arguing is that Wade Boggs' number retirement doesn't seem "right" to them. And I'm the latter camp. At the end of the day, every number retirement is a publicity/money grab and it really doesn't affect the way that I view the game in a day-to-day manner. Brock Holt losing his number is not going to keep me up at night but at the very least, these things should be special.

This is the perfect example of things that most of us laugh at: "intangibles" and "aura" and bullshit like that make a stronger case than numbers. Because if it's just about having the numbers (which don't lie!) then let's just create a benchmark for hitters and pitchers and whomever crosses those lines are thrown up on the facade, no questions asked. But, if we're being honest, then you have to take into consideration what he meant to the fanbase. And yes, Ted Williams was a creep of the highest order, but he also had a very strong and very special connection to Boston. Same with Yaz. Same with Pedro and Fisk and Rice and Pesky and Doerr and I guess Cronin. I lived through the Wade Boggs era and speaking for myself, I don't have that connection to Boggs as I do to Pedro or Rice (who were the only retired numbers active in my baseball years). And it has nothing to do with Boggs joining the Yankees.

And if I'm being true to myself, I'd say that I think Roger Clemens deserves the honor more than Boggs.

Back in 2009 (holy shit!) SoSH did a Top 100 Red Sox of All-Time poll and Boggs ranked eighth -- which is pretty good. But there are still four guys ahead of him who haven't had their numbers retired. Though to be fair two of those guys never wore numbers. Like I said, I never doubted Boggs' numbers. At all. He's an amazing, first ballot Hall of Famer but he wouldn't be my first choice to put up on the facade.

I'm not surprised to hear you say that you don't feel connected to Boggs like you do with Pedro, but Jim Rice? Really?

As a kid, post-Rice's career but pre-stats/racism/posting on a message board where several have met Jim Rice, he was the slugger guy who hit balls onto the Pike. No one ever really made a huge argument about him being a Hall of Famer (they didn't about Dwight Evans, either).

As I got older, I started to understand more of the story, both in ways that look positively on Rice and negatively on Rice. That it must have been hard being a black superstar for the Red Sox, the only African-American superstar the team had until Mo Vaughn. Rice always said it was about doing his job, but that implies a bit of fear, that Rice had to retreat into his shell to keep himself from going crazy for one reason or another.

On the other hand, he was a pretty overrated player because he wasn't a great defender, despite being athletic, he grounded into a metric ton of double plays, and he didn't walk a lot. Hitting .300 with 30 home runs and 100 RBIs just wasn't the obvious evidence of greatness people thought it was.

People at the time said he was surly, and people on here have said he's not a really nice guy. Decades have passed, Boston is a lot more comfortable about race, and people like Bill Russell, whose refusal to sign autographs and passion for civil rights, have been re-interpreted as not being the mean people that the public thought they were. There hasn't been a huge critical reappraisal of Jim Rice, so I'm guessing people still think he's kind of a jerk.

And heck, at the time wasn't Boggs a bigger star than Rice? I only get second-hand info, but I remember Gammons writing in his book about the Red Sox that Boggs would get five times the autograph requests, was doing big spots while Rice was shilling hot dogs from some little company for $500. Fred Lynn had a national TV ad while Rice didn't. Part of that was race, but Rice never looked comfortable with anything like that and I'm not sure he was popular enough.

Yet when he got elected into the Hall of Fame, undeservedly, he got his number retired about ten minutes later. And that does make sense, it would be absurd for the Red Sox to not retire the number of a guy who only played for them and got in the Hall, even if he was a borderline case (Bobby Doerr is the same way, although I think a lot more people liked Doerr than Rice).

But I think it highlights that a lot of other people with their numbers on the wall are guilty of the same crimes as Boggs. Pedro and Fisk didn't finish their careers with the Sox. Pesky isn't a Hall of Famer, Doerr and Rice are rather borderline cases - Boggs is a slam dunk Hall of Famer. Joe Cronin's impact on the team is hotly debated due to his managing/Pee Wee Reese/Jackie Robinson. Nobody in their right mind would argue against Yaz or Ted going up there, but hey, they were/are jerks too. Yaz was captain during the 25 guys, 25 cabs era and didn't seem too bothered about it.

I know people have gone out of their way to say it's not about the Yankees - but just to bring it up, Luis Tiant signed with the Yankees in 1979 under similar circumstances to Boggs (ie the Red Sox didn't try too hard to keep him). Heck, he even did a hot dog commercial kind of taunting the Red Sox about it (tagline: "It's good to be with a wiener!"). Does anybody, and I mean anybody, doubt that if he is elected to the Hall by the Veteran's Committee that Tiant's number will be retired before people finish reading the article on MLB.com? Will anybody object? If they will, they'll be (rightly) shouted down about it.

There's lots of unpleasant things about Boggs. The Red Sox seemed tired of him by 1992, he's absolutely nuts to put it generously, hey he DID seem to run headlong into being a True Yankee(tm). But he was a part of this franchise for a long time - and we definitely got his best years, only 1994 is even remotely in line with prime Boggs - and the purple patch of the late 80s, which seems inadequate now but was the most successful multi-year Red Sox run for decades, doesn't happen without him. After Clemens, he's the single most indispensable figure to making that happen.

He's earned it. Yeah, even as a Boggs defender I wish he was a little less crazy and a little more likely to bleed Red Sox red. But the positive contributions far outweigh the negatives.

And hey, I think Clemens should have his number retired too. Certainly his conduct leaves more to be desired, but you definitely can't doubt his stature as a truly iconic Red Sox player.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

And let us not forget all of the work he has done to bring sexual addiction into the psychiatric mainstream.

This raises an important question: will The Can return for the ceremony?

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

The home run in the all star game. It was called by guest announcer Ronald Reagan. The announcer was asking him a question, and Reagan interrupted by saying "There's another one" when Boggs hit his

It was sad listening to that clip--a reminder that RR made it through his second term with no fastball whatsoever (if you discount Nancy's).

 

[Punchado]

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Wade Boggs is one of the best hitters of all time. There is no conversation about the fifty best hitters in the history of baseball that doesn't include Boggs. For those that don't remember or those that never got the chance to see him hit, YouTube some videos of him hitting. It looks like the ball is slowing down as it reaches the plate. He could hit the ball on the barrel of the bat no matter where the ball was thrown.

Boggs was weird and cared a lot about his own stats but he is a hitting god. And if you polled a random grouping of baseball fans I would guess that 95% of them would say they associate him with the Red Sox. There is no former player alive or dead that deserves to have his number retired by the Red Sox more than Wade Boggs does. There is no reasonable argument against it.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

I'm not surprised to hear you say that you don't feel connected to Boggs like you do with Pedro, but Jim Rice? Really?

Yeah. Jim Rice. When I was moderately aware of baseball, I knew who Jim Rice was. Probably because he was a big guy who had a short name and could hit a lot of home runs. Maybe it was because for the early part of the 1980s, he was really the only start that the Sox had and was a consistent All-Star. I'm not sure. But 1986 was the first real year that I started following the Red Sox (tangental note: I made a pretty awesome scrap book of the 86 Sox when I was that age and clipped everything I could find of the Sox and glued it in that book. I'd give big money to find it. The Globe used to also insert drawings of Sox players in the Sunday comics page, which I collected as well.) and Rice was the offensive star of that team. He finished third in the MVP race that year and while Clemens was (obviously) the bigger name, Jim Rice held some weight because he was still producing then and he had done it in the past.

As 1987 turned into 1988 which bled into 89, Rice started to get worse and worse and I remember it really bumming me out because, like I said, he was my first real baseball hero. It used to piss me off when I'd here that Rice's license plate number "6-4-3". I mean, I don't know why I glommed on to Jim Rice when I did, but I did.

YMMV on who your first favorite baseball player was, but that's the cool thing about being a kid and getting into baseball. Things that begin that young have a habit of sticking with you and it's tough to shake them.

 

[threecy]

I think it's important to point out that the reason for him not having a longer tenure with Boston is that Lou Gorman never offered him a contract. He didn't spurn the Red Sox when he left, they shoved him out the door.

That's not true. The Red Sox offered him a 2 year, 9 million dollar contract during spring training of 1992. He rejected it, wanting a minimum of 3 years.

 

[The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa]

Does anyone remember an under the radar skills competition they held back around 1988 where Boggs pretty much blew away the competition? One of things that astounded me was that how he was able to bunt the ball with bulls-eye precision to every spot on the infield that was marked, and hit the ball at indicated targets in the outfield like he was playing darts.

Oh yes, I think Boggs absolutely should have his number retired. He made hitting into a methodical art form, perhaps in a way even more so than the Splinter. As someone else mentioned, if Boggs were playing in this era, this board would be coming all over itself over his value. Unless they've murdered younglings, I don't think the number retirement should be reserved for beloved characters. I'd rather see Boggs up there than Pesky, honestly.

 

[brs3]

I don't think that anyone is arguing that Wade Boggs doesn't have the numbers. I think that what people are arguing is that Wade Boggs' number retirement doesn't seem "right" to them. And I'm the latter camp. At the end of the day, every number retirement is a publicity/money grab and it really doesn't affect the way that I view the game in a day-to-day manner. Brock Holt losing his number is not going to keep me up at night but at the very least, these things should be special.

This is the perfect example of things that most of us laugh at: "intangibles" and "aura" and bullshit like that make a stronger case than numbers. Because if it's just about having the numbers (which don't lie!) then let's just create a benchmark for hitters and pitchers and whomever crosses those lines are thrown up on the facade, no questions asked. But, if we're being honest, then you have to take into consideration what he meant to the fanbase. And yes, Ted Williams was a creep of the highest order, but he also had a very strong and very special connection to Boston. Same with Yaz. Same with Pedro and Fisk and Rice and Pesky and Doerr and I guess Cronin. I lived through the Wade Boggs era and speaking for myself, I don't have that connection to Boggs as I do to Pedro or Rice (who were the only retired numbers active in my baseball years). And it has nothing to do with Boggs joining the Yankees.

And if I'm being true to myself, I'd say that I think Roger Clemens deserves the honor more than Boggs.

Back in 2009 (holy shit!) SoSH did a Top 100 Red Sox of All-Time poll and Boggs ranked eighth -- which is pretty good. But there are still four guys ahead of him who haven't had their numbers retired. Though to be fair two of those guys never wore numbers. Like I said, I never doubted Boggs' numbers. At all. He's an amazing, first ballot Hall of Famer but he wouldn't be my first choice to put up on the facade.

This would be a fun exercise to do again. 6 years later, I wonder if Big Papi would be higher than #15, if guys like Tim Wakefield(#22) and Papelbon(#33) would rise or fall with a few years distance from their Sox days.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

That's some pink hat level justification (and I know you're not a pink hat). Boggs wasn't half the prick that Ted Williams was, so there is no good guy criteria. You're always on people about providing justification for their posts. What evidence do you have that he never gave 2 shits about the Red Sox or the fans? Like every player that left in the 90's he was treated like crap on the way out. They gave out his number like candy to any fringe major leaguer that came along while holding Rice's 14 and Clemens' 21 in reserve. Guy gets treated like shit, low balled for some ass kissing job and it's on him for "refusing" to suck up to the rich cat 'fans'. Anyone with an ounce of pride would be bitter, which he freely admits in this article. https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/04/09/wade-boggs-buys-into-field-dreams-and-dreams-retired-number-fenway/9KYF46kB1A7DNWsfGkLWIJ/story.html

I'm not sure what you find "pink hat" about my stance - or even how that term would be applied in this situation - but I find it funny that you're asking me to prove a negative. Would you like me to cite all the games he hasn't attended since he retired? The number of events he didn't partake in? The championships that he wasn't around to celebrate? The role he hasn't played as a coach or instructor? All the spring trainings he hasn't attended? How would you like me to prove he didn't do any of that, as many players since have?

He was treated like crap by a completely different organization, ownership and FO. There is literally no one left in the building that has any connection to him during his time as a player wearing the uniform. He was "low balled for some ass kissing job"? How much was he offered? How much should they have paid him? Do you think they offered him less than all the other players that do it? If you're a former player that has a bad history with a team and fanbase, what is your asking price to go to a game and bump elbows for three hours with rich people that will be stoked to hang out with you? Does that price go higher or lower when you've been openly campaigning for years to get more love from the team?

Christ even Clemens has mended fences and he was treated just as badly and left with as much animosity as Boggs did, if not more. If you don't care about that stuff, that's perfectly fine and a defendable stance. But let's not pretend it doesn't exist. He had his chance to make nice with the new ownership and it didn't happen. I tend to believe that the fault there lies in the one constant between the two - Boggs - as opposed to thinking that Harrington passed along some edict with the sale of the team that they must continue to treat him poorly. YMMV.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Fans were often annoyed with Boggs because he took walks with guys on base, forcing poor Jim Ed to hit into inning/game-ending DPs. (I'm only half kidding.)

I do think retiring numbers is more art than science. There's a mixture of performance and fan-relations/adoration, and no single, "right" formula. IMO, teams should be somewhat judicious - you only got 99 numbers to dish out (or 101, if you count 0 and 00). If we were voting, I probably wouldn't vote yes (because of the intangible stuff; his performance warrants it). But there's plenty of room on the facade for Boggs. I won't refuse to go to any more games because #26 is up there.

 

[RIFan]

It's been 10 years since he was inducted into the HOF, all of which have been under Henry's leadership. 4 different players have been given # 26 since the sale. He has left no doubt that his number being handed out while Clemens and Rice's were "retired" has bothered him more than anything. As for how much they offered him, it was less than he felt his time was worth. He isn't under an obligation to take a job with the team to get his number retired. That smacks of quid pro quo to me. A edict may not have been passed on, but let's not pretend the trio did much to mend fences either. And where is the bad history with the fanbase. I don't recall him ever saying anything against Red Sox fans. They guy was thin skinned and a little off his rocker, but he was a savant with the bat and no one ever accused him of dogging it.

I'm not pretending it doesn't exist, it's just that it's laughable to me to overshadow the on field accomplishments with the post career stuff.

 

[Puffy]

It was sad listening to that clip--a reminder that RR made it through his second term with no fastball whatsoever (if you discount Nancy's).

Yeesh. I have more respect for Vin Scully than ever for being able to hold Reagan's hand during that 1/2 inning. He gracefully manages to spare him from complete embarrassment while leaving the former President's dignity more or less in tact.

 

[The Gray Eagle]

I don't like retiring numbers in general. Teams at this point want to retire as many numbers as possible, to get people talking about the team in the offseason, and to have a retirement ceremony at the ballpark, which will sell out and get good ratings and generate even more talk.

There should be better ways to honor players, which could generate just as much talk and would include an unveiling ceremony at the ballpark that would give the teams everything they get from retiring numbers, and still give the players an honor that they deserve.

Retiring Pesky's number was dumb. Officially naming the pole after him was smart. Instead of retiring his number, they could have just had the ceremony where he was honored and then unveiled his number on the pole itself, where it would stay. Then every time anyone sees his number up there, they remember him and tell younger people about him, but the team can still give out number 6, like it did for decades after Pesky retired, when it was given to 13 other players of varying ability who came after Pesky, like Gary Gaetti, Damon Berryhill, Rico Petrocelli, Bill Buckner, etc.

The Red Sox have given out number 26 to 13 other players since Boggs. It's kind of dumb to "retire" it now, since so many people have worn it since Boggs did. So what does it mean that no one will ever wear that number again for the Red Sox, after Lou Merloni, Sean Berry, Chris Snopek, Ramiro Mendoza, Wes Chamberlain and a bunch of others have already worn it after Boggs left? Not much, in my opinion.

As time goes on, teams are all going to have lots of unavailable numbers, and the Red Sox in particular have players like Speaker and Young who can't have their uniform numbers retired, so it's kind of dumb to retire Rice's number, but have nothing of the equivalent for Speaker.

They should have just stopped retiring numbers before doing Pesky, Fisk and Rice, just announced that from now on they would be coming up with new and better ways to honor those guys and others. Each guy worthy of an honor would have his own unique honor at the ballpark. Put Fisk's number up on the left field pole and have a ceremony for that, but don't forbid anyone on the team from wearing it forever. 8 other players have worn 27 for the Red Sox since Fisk left.

Like as was jokingly suggested above, put a circle on the LF wall where so many of Boggs' hits went, and put his number in that circle. Have a ceremony, unveil it, etc., that would be nice and fitting. That way the player is honored and every time you go to the ballpark you are reminded of his career and what was special about him, but you don't end up with 20 retired numbers and players on the field wearing number 103B or something.

I actually thought the best way to honor Boggs would be to paint on the field the footprints that used to appear when he walked back to the dugout from third-- he would step in the same exact spot every single time, because he was so single minded and superstitious. You could put 24 on the RF fence near the spot where Evans threw to home plate in the 1975 World Series, and do something unique for each guy being honored that is fitting for him individually.

The 2004 team has a lot of guys who deserve some kind of permanent honor from the Red Sox, but won't be getting their numbers retired. Schilling won't be getting his number retired, Manny won't, Varitek won't. Luis Tiant isn't getting his number retired, neither is Nomar or Lynn or Evans. A lot of those guys meant a lot to the team and the fans, but they won't be getting the honor that Rice and Cronin did. It'd be great if the team could find a permanent way to honor those guys at the ballpark too, without retiring their numbers.

It would also be fun to try to imagine a unique and fitting honor for a player, rather than just talk about whether they should be honored at all. If a player is worthy of being honored by the team forever, there should be a good way to memorialize him permanently in a unique and personal way that tells you something relevant about his career and what was special and different about him, something that can remind you about his career every time you come to the ballpark.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Yeesh. I have more respect for Vin Scully than ever for being able to hold Reagan's hand during that 1/2 inning. He gracefully manages to spare him from complete embarrassment while leaving the former President's dignity more or less in tact.

The 1976 version of RR (who almost beat a sitting President for his party's nomination) would have nailed an inning of play-by-play. The 1988 version is why I think HRC is too old to be President.

 

[vadertime]

I was too young to remember but what exactly happened his last season with Boston? Was there some type of nagging injury or just a flukey thing? He rebounded nicely to finish out his career and in NY and Tampa & never had a season even close to what he did in his last season in Boston, which in itself wasn't bad but far below what we were use to.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

The 1976 version of RR (who almost beat a sitting President for his party's nomination) would have nailed an inning of play-by-play. The 1988 version is why I think HRC is too old to be President.

The ten year difference in age does nothing for you, huh?

 

[SumnerH]

I was too young to remember but what exactly happened his last season with Boston? Was there some type of nagging injury or just a flukey thing? He rebounded nicely to finish out his career and in NY and Tampa & never had a season even close to what he did in his last season in Boston, which in itself wasn't bad but far below what we were use to.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2015/9/1/9225825/wade-boggs-boston-red-sox-new-york-yankees-1992-sabermetrics has a number of quotes from the time.

 

[shaggydog2000]

I don't like retiring numbers in general. Teams at this point want to retire as many numbers as possible, to get people talking about the team in the offseason, and to have a retirement ceremony at the ballpark, which will sell out and get good ratings and generate even more talk.

There should be better ways to honor players, which could generate just as much talk and would include an unveiling ceremony at the ballpark that would give the teams everything they get from retiring numbers, and still give the players an honor that they deserve.

Retiring Pesky's number was dumb. Officially naming the pole after him was smart. Instead of retiring his number, they could have just had the ceremony where he was honored and then unveiled his number on the pole itself, where it would stay. Then every time anyone sees his number up there, they remember him and tell younger people about him, but the team can still give out number 6, like it did for decades after Pesky retired, when it was given to 13 other players of varying ability who came after Pesky, like Gary Gaetti, Damon Berryhill, Rico Petrocelli, Bill Buckner, etc.

The Red Sox have given out number 26 to 13 other players since Boggs. It's kind of dumb to "retire" it now, since so many people have worn it since Boggs did. So what does it mean that no one will ever wear that number again for the Red Sox, after Lou Merloni, Sean Berry, Chris Snopek, Ramiro Mendoza, Wes Chamberlain and a bunch of others have already worn it after Boggs left? Not much, in my opinion.

As time goes on, teams are all going to have lots of unavailable numbers, and the Red Sox in particular have players like Speaker and Young who can't have their uniform numbers retired, so it's kind of dumb to retire Rice's number, but have nothing of the equivalent for Speaker.

They should have just stopped retiring numbers before doing Pesky, Fisk and Rice, just announced that from now on they would be coming up with new and better ways to honor those guys and others. Each guy worthy of an honor would have his own unique honor at the ballpark. Put Fisk's number up on the left field pole and have a ceremony for that, but don't forbid anyone on the team from wearing it forever. 8 other players have worn 27 for the Red Sox since Fisk left.

Like as was jokingly suggested above, put a circle on the LF wall where so many of Boggs' hits went, and put his number in that circle. Have a ceremony, unveil it, etc., that would be nice and fitting. That way the player is honored and every time you go to the ballpark you are reminded of his career and what was special about him, but you don't end up with 20 retired numbers and players on the field wearing number 103B or something.

I actually thought the best way to honor Boggs would be to paint on the field the footprints that used to appear when he walked back to the dugout from third-- he would step in the same exact spot every single time, because he was so single minded and superstitious. You could put 24 on the RF fence near the spot where Evans threw to home plate in the 1975 World Series, and do something unique for each guy being honored that is fitting for him individually.

The 2004 team has a lot of guys who deserve some kind of permanent honor from the Red Sox, but won't be getting their numbers retired. Schilling won't be getting his number retired, Manny won't, Varitek won't. Luis Tiant isn't getting his number retired, neither is Nomar or Lynn or Evans. A lot of those guys meant a lot to the team and the fans, but they won't be getting the honor that Rice and Cronin did. It'd be great if the team could find a permanent way to honor those guys at the ballpark too, without retiring their numbers.

It would also be fun to try to imagine a unique and fitting honor for a player, rather than just talk about whether they should be honored at all. If a player is worthy of being honored by the team forever, there should be a good way to memorialize him permanently in a unique and personal way that tells you something relevant about his career and what was special and different about him, something that can remind you about his career every time you come to the ballpark.

They should just retire Miller light from all the vendors. Just put a circle with a picture of a 30 pack of miller light on it above every set of taps, in Boggs' honor. Fantastic way to honor the man, and no one will ever be forced to pay money for that garbage at a game again. Instead, they can spend it on roughly equivalent swill.

I can't wait until his hall of fame display including 107 beer cans stacked up in a pyramid, with a "did you know chart" showing what his blood alcohol level must have been after that record breaking flight, how many calories that equals, etc, etc.

 

[kartvelo]

The issue is all about what criteria get applied. We have a MLB HOF, we have a Red Sox HOF, and we have retired numbers. What does each "mean," and where do they overlap?

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

The ten year difference in age does nothing for you, huh?

What huh?

The advancing age killed Reagan's brain. His Alzheimer's didn't begin the day he announced his diagnosis.

HRC would be 77 at the end of an 8-year term if elected this cycle. Reagan was 78 at the end of his term. I've seen dementia up close and personal. POTUS isn't a good job for the elderly.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

It's been 10 years since he was inducted into the HOF, all of which have been under Henry's leadership. 4 different players have been given # 26 since the sale. He has left no doubt that his number being handed out while Clemens and Rice's were "retired" has bothered him more than anything. As for how much they offered him, it was less than he felt his time was worth. He isn't under an obligation to take a job with the team to get his number retired. That smacks of quid pro quo to me. A edict may not have been passed on, but let's not pretend the trio did much to mend fences either. And where is the bad history with the fanbase. I don't recall him ever saying anything against Red Sox fans. They guy was thin skinned and a little off his rocker, but he was a savant with the bat and no one ever accused him of dogging it.

I'm not pretending it doesn't exist, it's just that it's laughable to me to overshadow the on field accomplishments with the post career stuff.

Of course he's not under any obligation to take a job, but do you think maybe, just maybe, it would have been a smart move? The guy has been complaining about it for over a decade about his GD uniform number, but he deems the job offer not worth his time monetarily and which would be detracting from him doing what else exactly? You have literally no idea what the trio did to try to mend fences, but I would cite offering him that job was certainly a step on their part. Once the number had been given out again - before they were there, on multiple occasions - what difference does it make at that point? Perhaps there is a reason they gave it out and didn't give out 14 or 21? Did they walk in with predisposed hatred towards him or do you think maybe after dealing with him, they were more likely to be disinclined to do anything?

This group has made it a point to involve as much of the history of the team as they can. They made a point to bring Clemens back into the fold, Pedro and Varitek are part of the FO, etc etc. That they did no such thing, until now, with Boggs should tell you more about Boggs than it does them. They have literally zero reason to have issue with him unless he has given them one over the past dozen years.

The guy was a great player. He was honored as such when he was inducted into the HoF. Having your number retired is about more than numbers, as witnessed by Pesky or Fisk. Part of it is your association with the organization and fanbase. As many here have stated, a significant portion of the fanbase doesn't feel he meets that criteria. Not a single person I have seen is arguing over his merits as a ballplayer. But for a team that has literally doubled the amount of retired numbers over the last decade, yeah, sorry man, but some people are going to be skeptical about it. It reeks of marketing. Because while some are passionate about him, as you are, if there was a larger portion of the fan base that felt the same, it would have been done long ago.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

What huh?

The advancing age killed Reagan's brain. His Alzheimer's didn't begin the day he announced his diagnosis.

HRC would be 77 at the end of an 8-year term if elected this cycle. Reagan was 78 at the end of his term. I've seen dementia up close and personal. POTUS isn't a good job for the elderly.

I've seen it up close and personal as well. And one of the tricky things is it doesn't onset at a specific age and it's not universal to everyone. We also don't elect to 8 year terms. So while I have no ties to HRC and wouldn't vote for her anyway, I find it odd to discount her because she is 67 yo. Unless I've missed something that might lead you to believe she's already showing signs of it.

Edit: but V&N is open to discuss further.

 

[phenweigh]

NESN reporting Boggs and Sox in discussion over a spring training coaching role.

This website agrees ...

http://bosoxinjection.com/2015/12/22/red-sox-to-retire-wade-boggs-no-26-brock-holt-to-no-12/

 

[beautokyo]

He wears a "B" on his HOF plaque......so why not put his number on the wall where it belongs. I can understand some of the negatives but it's just a game involving money and honoring some someone who did great things for the team you follow/love shouldn't be ignored. He was a great player for the Sawx......period

 

[threecy]

I would suggest the number retiring concept should be revisited. It seems sort of redundant that it's based upon what the baseball writers (or veterans committee) think. The other two criteria seem to be out the window (finish playing career with Sox, Fisk; 10 year minimum, soon-to-be Pedro).

If anything, I think one could suggest that an individual team's number retiring should be there to honor legendary players regardless of what the baseball writers think. As a prime example, I think Dwight Evans should be up there instead of Jim Rice and Wade Boggs.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

So like when they retired Pesky's number even though he wasn't in the HoF?

 

[threecy]

So like when they retired Pesky's number even though he wasn't in the HoF?

I stand corrected on that point. But, I do think Dewey should be up there before Boggs and Rice.

 

[DanoooME]

I don't like retiring numbers in general. Teams at this point want to retire as many numbers as possible, to get people talking about the team in the offseason, and to have a retirement ceremony at the ballpark, which will sell out and get good ratings and generate even more talk.

There should be better ways to honor players, which could generate just as much talk and would include an unveiling ceremony at the ballpark that would give the teams everything they get from retiring numbers, and still give the players an honor that they deserve.

Personally, I like the Ring of Honor that many football teams use where the player is immortalized in the stadium, but the number is never retired. In some cases, the team does retire the number too, but in general I think retiring numbers is a silly way of honoring someone. It also prevents someone who was a fan of the player in question from having an opportunity to wear the number of the player they idolized.

 

[Darnell's Son]

This decision by the Red Sox brass did not make abs happy.

 

[grimshaw]

I'd be curious to see a poll in NY asking if his number should be retired by the Red Sox. I'm willing to bet the NY numbers would be a higher percentage in favor.

I also poked around this page http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/major-league-baseball-retired-uniforms.shtml to see if there were any teams that were making a mockery of retired numbers. Between all the teams there are 191 retired numbers (I'm only counting Jackie Robinson once).

-Of those 191, 130 are Hall of Famers

-34 are managers/broadcasters and executives. The two odd ones are Johnny Oates - for sentimental reasons, I guess (506-476 career record - though died from brain cancer, and Jimmie Reese who was Babe Ruth's roommate?

-Of the remaining 26 - 11 have at least a cursory discussion for Hall of Fame consideration: Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, Billy Pierce, Dave Concepcion, Mel Harder, Don Mattingly, Andy Pettitte, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry, Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey. Dwight Evans fans definitely have an argument by those standards since his qualifications are at least at the upper tier of this list, while his longevity with his team is unmatched.

-The remaining 15 are: Luis Gonzalez, Johnny Pesky, Harold Baines, Paul Konerko, Willie Horton, Jose Cruz, Jim Umbricht, Mike Scott, Don Wilson, Larry Dierker, Jim Gilliam, Jorge Posada, Randy Jones, Rusty Staub, and Frank White.

Surprisingly 10 teams have as many or more than the Red Sox (Braves, White Sox, Tigers, Astros/Colt 45's, Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Pirates, Giants, and Cardinals.

-The Indians have a retired "455" to commemorate their consecutive sell out streak. Thank god Lucky and the Dentist are out of power.

-The Rays have Wade Boggs and Don Zimmer. That's about par for the course for that franchise.

-The Mariners, very strangely have no one retired yet. Edgar and RJ certainly should already be up there (RJ is up there as D-back), and I'm sure Griffey will in the next year or two.

Here is the list of players who were elected to the Hall by the writers whose players numbers haven't been retired.

A's - Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane
Yankees - Red Ruffing and Herb Pennock
Phillies - Grover Alexander
Tigers - Harry Heilmann
Cards - George Sisler, Joe Medwick, Frankie Frisch
Twins/Senators - Walter Johnson
Braves - Rabbit Maranville
Dodgers - Dazzy Vance
Indians - Early Winn
Red Sox - Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs
No affiliation - Cy Young

Several of those players played on different team names or cities, so may not seem as sexy to the fan base (Simmons and Cochrane were in Philly, Pennock was a "Highlander,", Sisler was a Brown, Maranville was a Boston Brave, and Winn was a Spider.

Aside from Walter Johnson and CY Young whose original teams no longer exist, are there two more gaping holes than Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs?

 

[threecy]

-The remaining 15 are: ...Johnny Pesky...

I would suggest that Pesky belongs in a manager/coach category. If not for his post-playing-career decades in uniform, I highly doubt his number would have been retired.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Nice work, Grimshaw.

The Rays have Wade Boggs and Don Zimmer.

I wonder what number they retired for Zim? IIRC, he changed his number every year to match either his age or the number of years he had been in baseball.

 

[grimshaw]

I would suggest that Pesky belongs in a manager/coach category. If not for his post-playing-career decades in uniform, I highly doubt his number would have been retired.

Agree. He's more in the "lifer" category, like Larry Dierker who played, managed and broadcast.

 

[The Talented Allen Ripley]

Here is the list of players who were elected to the Hall by the writers whose players numbers haven't been retired.

A's - Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane
Yankees - Red Ruffing and Herb Pennock
Phillies - Grover Alexander
Tigers - Harry Heilmann
Cards - George Sisler, Joe Medwick, Frankie Frisch
Twins/Senators - Walter Johnson
Braves - Rabbit Maranville
Dodgers - Dazzy Vance
Indians - Early Winn
Red Sox - Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs
No affiliation - Cy Young

Several of those players played on different team names or cities, so may not seem as sexy to the fan base (Simmons and Cochrane were in Philly, Pennock was a "Highlander,", Sisler was a Brown, Maranville was a Boston Brave, and Winn was a Spider.

Aside from Walter Johnson and CY Young whose original teams no longer exist, are there two more gaping holes than Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs?

Some of these guys predate the use of jersey numbers: Johnson, Young, Alexander, Heilmann, Sisler.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Jimmy Reese sat in the Angels dugout for years, as "conditioning" coach and fungo hitter extraordinaire. . Basically, he was Pesky before Pesky was Pesky. His number wasn't retired because he was Ruth's roommate, but because he was a fixture around the Angels for more than 20 years.

 

[grimshaw]

Some of these guys predate the use of jersey numbers: Johnson, Young, Alexander, Heilmann, Sisler.

True, but Ty Cobb, Chuck Klein, Pete Alexander, Christy Mathewson and Rogers Hornsby are all retired without numbers.

 

[terrisus]

Don Mattingly, Andy Pettitte, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry, Thurman Munson, Jorge Posada

Geeze, it's one thing to talk about how many numbers the Yankees have retired, and another completely to look at some of the names on that list.
May as well just call it the "List of players who played their careers for the Yankees."

They should just start including that in their contract offers.
"If you spend your entire career of 10 or more years with us, we'll retire your number."

For all the worrying about the Red Sox retired numbers looking like the Yankees', it's not going to be Johnny Pesky or Wade Boggs to do that. We'd have to get the likes of Rico Petrocelli and Mike Greenwell up there first.

Spoiler

(Yes, I'm being a bit facetious with the Red Sox choice examples... but you get the idea)

 

[richgedman'sghost]

I'd be curious to see a poll in NY asking if his number should be retired by the Red Sox. I'm willing to bet the NY numbers would be a higher percentage in favor.

I also poked around this page http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/major-league-baseball-retired-uniforms.shtml to see if there were any teams that were making a mockery of retired numbers. Between all the teams there are 191 retired numbers (I'm only counting Jackie Robinson once).

-Of those 191, 130 are Hall of Famers

-34 are managers/broadcasters and executives. The two odd ones are Johnny Oates - for sentimental reasons, I guess (506-476 career record - though died from brain cancer, and Jimmie Reese who was Babe Ruth's roommate?

-Of the remaining 26 - 11 have at least a cursory discussion for Hall of Fame consideration: Dale Murphy, Tim Raines, Billy Pierce, Dave Concepcion, Mel Harder, Don Mattingly, Andy Pettitte, Bernie Williams, Ron Guidry, Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey. Dwight Evans fans definitely have an argument by those standards since his qualifications are at least at the upper tier of this list, while his longevity with his team is unmatched.

-The remaining 15 are: Luis Gonzalez, Johnny Pesky, Harold Baines, Paul Konerko, Willie Horton, Jose Cruz, Jim Umbricht, Mike Scott, Don Wilson, Larry Dierker, Jim Gilliam, Jorge Posada, Randy Jones, Rusty Staub, and Frank White.

Surprisingly 10 teams have as many or more than the Red Sox (Braves, White Sox, Tigers, Astros/Colt 45's, Dodgers, Yankees, Phillies, Pirates, Giants, and Cardinals.

-The Indians have a retired "455" to commemorate their consecutive sell out streak. Thank god Lucky and the Dentist are out of power.

-The Rays have Wade Boggs and Don Zimmer. That's about par for the course for that franchise.

-The Mariners, very strangely have no one retired yet. Edgar and RJ certainly should already be up there (RJ is up there as D-back), and I'm sure Griffey will in the next year or two.

Here is the list of players who were elected to the Hall by the writers whose players numbers haven't been retired.

A's - Al Simmons, Mickey Cochrane
Yankees - Red Ruffing and Herb Pennock
Phillies - Grover Alexander
Tigers - Harry Heilmann
Cards - George Sisler, Joe Medwick, Frankie Frisch
Twins/Senators - Walter Johnson
Braves - Rabbit Maranville
Dodgers - Dazzy Vance
Indians - Early Winn
Red Sox - Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs
No affiliation - Cy Young

Several of those players played on different team names or cities, so may not seem as sexy to the fan base (Simmons and Cochrane were in Philly, Pennock was a "Highlander,", Sisler was a Brown, Maranville was a Boston Brave, and Winn was a Spider.

Aside from Walter Johnson and CY Young whose original teams no longer exist, are there two more gaping holes than Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs?

2 small corrections: Early Wynn played for the Indians not Spiders and Pennock was a Yankee not Highlander. He was a teammate of Ruth on the Yankees and also played for the Red Sox.

 

[Byrdbrain]

Nice work, Grimshaw.



I wonder what number they retired for Zim? IIRC, he changed his number every year to match either his age or the number of years he had been in baseball.

"The Rays honored a baseball legend on opening day. Tampa Bay on Monday retired No. 66, the number worn by the late Don Zimmer in his final year as a senior baseball adviser for the club. The 66 represents the number of years Zimmer worked in professional baseball. He died June 4, 2014 , at age 83.Apr 6, 2015"
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb-news/4640872-tampa-bay-rays-don-zimmer-retire-number-66-mlb-opening-day-2015

 

[AB in DC]

Aside from Walter Johnson and CY Young whose original teams no longer exist, are there two more gaping holes than Jimmie Foxx and Wade Boggs?

I hadn't realized that Jimmie Foxx is in the Hall wearing a Red Sox cap -- he spent more time with the A's, and he won two of his three MVPs in Philadelphia, along with two World Series rings. Is there a story here?

 

[Eddie Jurak]

"The Rays honored a baseball legend on opening day. Tampa Bay on Monday retired No. 66, the number worn by the late Don Zimmer in his final year as a senior baseball adviser for the club. The 66 represents the number of years Zimmer worked in professional baseball. He died June 4, 2014 , at age 83.Apr 6, 2015"
http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb-news/4640872-tampa-bay-rays-don-zimmer-retire-number-66-mlb-opening-day-2015

I think they should have retired a steel plate instead of #66.

 

[zenter]

I hadn't realized that Jimmie Foxx is in the Hall wearing a Red Sox cap -- he spent more time with the A's, and he won two of his three MVPs in Philadelphia, along with two World Series rings. Is there a story here?

Connie Mack dismantled a great As team and sold a bunch of very good older players off to other teams, presumably to save money. The three HOFers he sold - Foxx, Lefty Grove, and Mickey Cochrane - were pissed. More or less as punishment to Mack, they chose to wear the caps of the teams they went to (Sox, Sox, and Tigers, respectively).

From a stats perspective, only Grove did anything of substance spent significant time on the destination team. But all three would definitely wear As caps under the current HOF regime.