The Washington Redskins cheerleaders and a trip from hell

[koufax32]

I would imagine that these girls put up with this for the publicity and popularity that goes along with it. It’s a means to the end of a modeling career or even something as simple as being Instagram/YouTube/Snapchat famous. There is money to be made by just simply getting followers.
I imagine it to be a lot like some of the horrible things some actors and actresses have gone through in order to get that big break.

 

[trekfan55]

I would imagine that these girls put up with this for the publicity and popularity that goes along with it. It’s a means to the end of a modeling career or even something as simple as being Instagram/YouTube/Snapchat famous. There is money to be made by just simply getting followers.
I imagine it to be a lot like some of the horrible things some actors and actresses have gone through in order to get that big break.

Well, that's what got this whole thing started. Harvey Weinstein and the way he abused so many aspiring actresses (somo of which did get their break). It's not OK there and it's not OK in cheerleading. Whether these girls are content with being Instagram/SnapChat/Youtube famous and can make money off it that's fine with me. Putting up with hours, dancing, etc. is fine. Putting up with abuse, pimping out, or unwanted nude shots is not regardless of dream. Or else let's bring back the "casting couch".

 

[Ralphwiggum]

Yeah this sounds about right except no. The report says they had a dress code, had no time to enjoy any of the meals, had virtually no free time for themselves, and that's on top of what you already mentioned. So, yes they should be compensated for the time spent there. If, on the other hand, they had to shoot pictures for a time and had the rest of the day for themselves then it's a different story.

BTW Britt Mchenry and her ilk are pushing the right buttons here. We are focusing on cheerleading and whether it's right or wrong, or stupid, or whatever instead of the fact that what the Redskins did to these girls is absolutely wrong and should be investigated. No career choice gives anyone the right to abuse.

Obviously I wasn’t clear but I agree completely. There could have been a way for this to be structured where failing to pay them wouldn’t have been an issue. The Washington Football Team of course fucked this up, in addition to the laundry list of other disgusting things they subjected these poor women to on the trip.

 

[Cesar Crespo]

The greater good is to get rid of it. They might like it but it also sets a bad example for the youth of America that this is what you have to look like as a female..

Does the NBA set a bad example to the youth of America that that is what you should look like as a male? Pretty much any pro athlete/dancer/whatever is going to set a "bad example" because it requires you to actually be fit and in shape. Cheer leading is a sport, and it's not cheer leading that is the problem.

edit: Should we get rid of women's volleyball too?

 

[OurF'ingCity]

Who gives you the right to decide whether what's pointless? What if someone thought that hoops was pointless? There are plenty of people who believe that basketball, or sports in general, are dumb and isn't worthwhile at all. I mean, a Kings-Magic game in February is remarkably pointless.

No one has the “right to decide what’s pointless,” but we do have the right to express our opinion that cheerleading (at least the NFL and NBA variety; I fully acknowledge that high school and college cheerleading is very different and from what I can tell takes much more skill and athleticism) is pointless and doesn’t add anything to the game experience. If enough people/the owners eventually come to share that opinion, cheerleading as a paid profession will go away regardless of whether people still want to do it or not.

 

[Reverend]

I would imagine that these girls put up with this for the publicity and popularity that goes along with it. It’s a means to the end of a modeling career or even something as simple as being Instagram/YouTube/Snapchat famous. There is money to be made by just simply getting followers.
I imagine it to be a lot like some of the horrible things some actors and actresses have gone through in order to get that big break.

Is this an empirical description or a grudging acceptance/endorsement?

I can't tell.

 

[koufax32]

Is this an empirical description or a grudging acceptance/endorsement?

I can't tell.

I’m sorry you even feel the need to ask this.

 

[Reverend]

I’m sorry you even feel the need to ask this.

Fair response. Me too.

But there's been too much confusion of late, yeah? Just trying to make sure we at least argue about real stuff!

 

[JayMags71]

In terms of the Washington Cheerleaders not getting paid for their trip to Costa Rica, I don’t have any particular problem with that necessarily. I don’t know for sure but I am guessing that’s the way a lot of these calendar shoots go for NFL cheerleading squads. Obviously it depends on the specifics, but if the team pays to get the girls down there, puts them up in a nice resort, and they get a nice, free vacation and participate in the calendar shoot, that seems like an OK deal to me.

These cheerleaders are contractually obligated to participate in these photo shoots. The NFL makes money off these calendars. To say “hey, you got to fly down to the tropics. What more do you want?” is the textbook definition of exploitation.

Say you’re in a particular job, and your employer makes you attend a conference in CR.You’re working the whole time you’re there. Then after it’s over, your paycheck is missing salary for your time in CR.”

Would “Hey, you got a free trip out of it!” satisfy you as an explanation?

 

[Marceline]

It is also a remnant of a lost sad era.

You can't say stuff like this, and be taken at all seriously, given your avatar, and your response above:

"Cheerleading is an accumulation of many things I dislike. The exploitation of women, the glorification of the pretty girl..."

And then talk about how it was a lost sad era when we could make offensive comments about pictures of women on SoSH.
These things don't go together or make any sense.

 

[Hildy]

Of course not. Because Tom Brokaw french-kissed a women fifty years ago, and obviously that's way, way more important than what the Redskins organization did to these nine women..

I'm missing your point here--in no way was I trying to assign importance. Both things suck.

The issue is abhorrent behavior by others, not them. The solution is not to take away what they like to do.

Yes, exactly this. Having said that, I hate the concept of cheerleading, despite how much work and effort and athleticism it takes. It's kind of awful.

I don't disagree with you. My youngest is trying very hard to become a cheerleader and my wife and I are both very much against it and there are a lot of reasons for it -- many of which you mention in your post.

The reason why my daughter wants to be a cheerleader is because "regular" sports are hard for her due to a breathing issue that she has. She plays soccer and sometimes has to leave the field because breathing because an issue. Gymnastics and whatever else cheerleaders do don't seem to exacerbate that breathing problem, so there's a part of me that wants her to do this activity because it will be fun. But there's also another part of me that wants to shut it down because of all the other bullshit.

My daughter's reasons for wanting to be a cheerleader aren't typical, but there are girls like her out there.

In all seriousness, have her try martial arts. Better than gymnastics longterm for sure. But, shockingly, you have to find a dojo that doesn't treat female students like the equivalent of NFL cheerleaders. Which is not as simple as you might think.

 

[InstaFace]

Your avatar is a woman's ass.

I laughed really hard at this.

That said, perhaps one shouldn't look a gift ally in the avatar. Words do frequently become actions.

 

[Leather]

-

 

[reggiecleveland]

Most of my animus to cheerleading is from the high school level, where capable athletic girls are convinced, and yes, choose to cheer from the sideline rather than play the game. I find the idea of them as feminist icons laughable at best. I admit I am embittered having to watch a cheerleader get athlete of the year over a track athlete or basketball player at schools I have worked at. A grown woman can make her own choices and being a cheerleader or NRA shill are two of them.

I have nothing against anyone wanting to make money off her looks. There are plenty of instagram girls that make no bones about it that they are selling pictures of their ass. Emily Ratjkowski has nice career off her boobs. One of the smartest kid I taught was fashion model that would fly to Milan on for a week, and made money to go to med school.

Anyway I just wish they were not at the game. The choices to be a an instagram ass model or bikini model the lines are drawn, and the women could have control. The NBA or NFL being a place to work and sell sexuality seems ill placed. My avatar used to be a monkey doing tricks and don't want to see animal acts at the game either.

 

[uncannymanny]

Just to quibble, just because somebody likes something does not mean it is worthwhile. Also the fact they are pursuing an ultimately pointless and valueless dream does not mean they should be subject to abuse.

These women have been competing at this for decades by this point. It might surprise you, but these are real athletic competitions, not beauty contests. Sometimes they’re even aired on ESPN. With men doing it too! Being a pro team cheerleader is a huge accomplishment that takes years of tireless work. Equating them with Hooters waitresses is, I don’t know, just fucking sad. You will never be as good at whatever obviously super important to humanity thing you do as they are at this. Beyond that, it is an opportunity that leads to other, better paying work.

But, man, thank god the guy that’s been toting around the ass avatar for a decade+ is here to let women know which things they do are pointless and valueless. Of course, there’s some deep, non pointless reason for your avatar. You’re just a misunderstood champion of women!

I am not in favor of getting rid of it to protect the women, but because it is stupid.

No one cares if you think it’s stupid.

My basketball contacts and just knowing the right guys, and some luck has had me in the "members" or richie rich pregame and post game NBA parties. The dancers, or some of them at least, are always there. Some of them seem clearly uncomfortable, and they seem managed by pimpy characters male or female telling them to mingle, etc.

Yeah, sounds like the cheerleaders are the problem here. If we tell them they can’t do what they’ve been working at since high school or earlier, these guys will go back to being great people. Like men were before cheerleaders.

Many or most seem interested in meeting the guys. I always make a little joke about how fast they leave my table when they find out I am a teacher.

I bet this one kills every time in that crowd! *high five*

A guy I know has made a ton of cash and is huge sports fan

He must do something verifiably not stupid or unimportant.

and goes to NBA, NFL games and events all the time, and loves to meet former and current players.

Is he the envy of all the other men in the room trying to get close to these rich and powerful guys?

worst of all the co-opting of feminism for something not feminist at all, the using of worthwhile social causes just to protect what is your own personal joy. When I stop to think about it, it pisses me off.

What these feminists really need is a man to tell them what feminism is all about.

I am perfectly fine ignoring this annoyance, but if you ever, ever ask me. I will tell you, cheerleading is stupid

No one did, and you didn’t.

Given the power I would get rid of it. I would also make frowning rich kids sitting in the front row playing of their iphone switch seats with the guy that knows how the starting pitcher did last game sitting in the nosebleeds, and no you cannot go home. I would take the guy that stands up and bangs on the glass at the NHL game blocking others' view hoping to distract the opposing defenseman into the parking lot and not allow him that seat for 1 year. Any fan heckling Bogearts with a fake Boston "BOGAHTS!!" will get one one warning before ejection. There are lots of things I would like to ban, but do not have the power.

This stuff is definitely equally important. When will society step up and make those rich kids smile, already?

It is also a remnant of a lost sad era.

“Cool”

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Most of my animus to cheerleading is from the high school level, where capable athletic girls are convinced, and yes, choose to cheer from the sideline rather than play the game. I find the idea of them as feminist icons laughable at best. I admit I am embittered having to watch a cheerleader get athlete of the year over a track athlete or basketball player at schools I have worked at. A grown woman can make her own choices and being a cheerleader or NRA shill are two of them.

I have nothing against anyone wanting to make money off her looks. There are plenty of instagram girls that make no bones about it that they are selling pictures of their ass. Emily Ratjkowski has nice career off her boobs. One of the smartest kid I taught was fashion model that would fly to Milan on for a week, and made money to go to med school.

Anyway I just wish they were not at the game. The choices to be a an instagram ass model or bikini model the lines are drawn, and the women could have control. The NBA or NFL being a place to work and sell sexuality seems ill placed. My avatar used to be a monkey doing tricks and don't want to see animal acts at the game either.

That is on you for not recognizing and respecting cheer leading as a sport and somehow thinking it's less athletic or sporty than field hockey, volleyball, softball etc. It isn't.

edit: Seriously, how is a cheerleader somehow less deserving of athlete of the year than someone who plays baseball or golf? Do you think they put in less work, less effort, less practice? Do inform me why they aren't deserving, please. You have some serious misogynistic residue left behind.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Does the NBA set a bad example to the youth of America that that is what you should look like as a male? Pretty much any pro athlete/dancer/whatever is going to set a "bad example" because it requires you to actually be fit and in shape. Cheer leading is a sport, and it's not cheer leading that is the problem.

edit: Should we get rid of women's volleyball too?

Not at all. Women’s volleyball is a competitive sport where they can showcase skills in a safe environment. Never seen anyone come out there and grab a woman’s ass or stories about them having to appear topless to please horny old ticket holders. Cheerleading requires a lot of athletic talent that part is true. But it’s turned from something such as dancing to exploitation. Time for it to die for the greater good. We aren’t talking about the NBA and it’s players that’s irrelevant and moving the goal posts. Point is we should be teaching our kids it’s okay to look however you want. We should be working to empower women not exploit them.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Not at all. Women’s volleyball is a competitive sport where they can showcase skills in a safe environment. Never seen anyone come out there and grab a woman’s ass or stories about them having to appear topless to please horny old ticket holders.

That's completely false. People objectify women's volleyball players all the time. There are a ton of pics on the web of women's asses in volleyball uniforms. There was a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Marge, "I just watched women's volleyball on ESPN" in attempt to show her that he was ready for sex. The same thing is true for women's soccer players, women's track and field athletes (there was an entire thread on this very board about ten years ago devoted to a high school T&F athlete and the skimpy clothes she wore) and I'm sure that there are others who oggle women's hoops and softball players (like Jennie Finch).

You are completely misunderstanding the point of the discussion here, which is no matter what sport a woman plays (from cheerleading to hoops to volleyball to soccer), it's gross when someone exploits or treats them as less than a human due to her profession. Getting rid of the profession is not going to get rid of this behavior. To deny someone pleasure in their chosen field because some assholes can't keep their dicks in their pants is punishing the wrong people.

It really couldn't be that much more clear.

 

[Marciano490]

Not at all. Women’s volleyball is a competitive sport where they can showcase skills in a safe environment. Never seen anyone come out there and grab a woman’s ass or stories about them having to appear topless to please horny old ticket holders. Cheerleading requires a lot of athletic talent that part is true. But it’s turned from something such as dancing to exploitation. Time for it to die for the greater good. We aren’t talking about the NBA and it’s players that’s irrelevant and moving the goal posts. Point is we should be teaching our kids it’s okay to look however you want. We should be working to empower women not exploit them.

These women are empowered. To chose want they want to do. You’re the one trying to limit their choices. Ultimately, that lets the creeps and abusers win.

 

[Fred not Lynn]

Let’s just call competitive cheerleading “Team Gymnastics” and go from there...

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Not at all. Women’s volleyball is a competitive sport where they can showcase skills in a safe environment. Never seen anyone come out there and grab a woman’s ass or stories about them having to appear topless to please horny old ticket holders. Cheerleading requires a lot of athletic talent that part is true. But it’s turned from something such as dancing to exploitation. Time for it to die for the greater good. We aren’t talking about the NBA and it’s players that’s irrelevant and moving the goal posts. Point is we should be teaching our kids it’s okay to look however you want. We should be working to empower women not exploit them.

Go look up memes of women college volleyball players and get back to me. The reasons cheerleaders look the way they do is because they are physically active and exercise. For the most part, fat people do not play sports because if they did... they would be fit and not fat.

Outside of football and a few baseball players, anyway.

Seriously, what should cheerleaders look like? What will anyone look like who is physically active 5 days a week? Should there be fat, out of shape cheerleaders who get winded after 3 seconds just so women don't feel bad about their bodies? Or you know, should they pick the girls who are the most athletic and in shape to do the routines?

edit: You people are ridiculous with your double standards. Again, Wtf is the average pro athlete going to look like? FIT. And have you never seen a chearleading competition? Definitely not competitive, nope not at all. Whatever.

 

[trekfan55]

That's completely false. People objectify women's volleyball players all the time. There are a ton of pics on the web of women's asses in volleyball uniforms. There was a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Marge, "I just watched women's volleyball on ESPN" in attempt to show her that he was ready for sex. The same thing is true for women's soccer players, women's track and field athletes (there was an entire thread on this very board about ten years ago devoted to a high school T&F athlete and the skimpy clothes she wore) and I'm sure that there are others who oggle women's hoops and softball players (like Jennie Finch).

You are completely misunderstanding the point of the discussion here, which is no matter what sport a woman plays (from cheerleading to hoops to volleyball to soccer), it's gross when someone exploits or treats them as less than a human due to her profession. Getting rid of the profession is not going to get rid of this behavior. To deny someone pleasure in their chosen field because some assholes can't keep their dicks in their pants is punishing the wrong people.

It really couldn't be that much more clear.

This. A thousand times.

And BTW, women get abused under all kind of circumstances when they practice a sport as well. You just need to read the horrific stories involving Dr Nassar. At the end of the day we are not protecting anyone by simply excluding the activity. We protect them by making sure that the activity they choose to participate in is safe from abuse.

If a parent will not let his daughter participate in Gymnastics after he reads what Dr Nassar did that may be fine. But perhaps he should instead talk to the doctors, monitor the program and ensure that his daughter is safe (for example, making sure other adults are there when the doctor has to treat her) or other mechanisms. The solution is not to take away the dream or the activity.

The same applies here. These women chose to dance professionally working for a football team. And while their duties may include attending some parties, and mingling with guests, the trip was out of bounds.

 

[dcmissle]

That's completely false. People objectify women's volleyball players all the time. There are a ton of pics on the web of women's asses in volleyball uniforms. There was a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Marge, "I just watched women's volleyball on ESPN" in attempt to show her that he was ready for sex. The same thing is true for women's soccer players, women's track and field athletes (there was an entire thread on this very board about ten years ago devoted to a high school T&F athlete and the skimpy clothes she wore) and I'm sure that there are others who oggle women's hoops and softball players (like Jennie Finch).

You are completely misunderstanding the point of the discussion here, which is no matter what sport a woman plays (from cheerleading to hoops to volleyball to soccer), it's gross when someone exploits or treats them as less than a human due to her profession. Getting rid of the profession is not going to get rid of this behavior. To deny someone pleasure in their chosen field because some assholes can't keep their dicks in their pants is punishing the wrong people.

It really couldn't be that much more clear.

Agree with your middle paragraph, but here's my question for you:

I'm an NFL or NBA owner (bear with me). I think this over and decide to abolish my cheerleading squad, for two reasons:

1. I face up to the fact that cheerleading squads sell sex. That's what it is, and if anyone here thinks differently, please present the argument. I'm not comfortable with that anymore. That's not what I'm about; I don't want the team that I own to be about that.

2. I don't want to run the legal risk. I can't police at any acceptable cost what happens at team affiliated events, after parties, and so forth. And although cheerleaders generally know what all this is about, there can be an element of coercion that I cannot control and that I'm unwilling to subject them or myself to.

You have a problem with my decision to terminate the cheerleading squad?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

Don't even get me started on women's beach volleyball. How many obese girls you see playing volleyball?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

This. A thousand times.

And BTW, women get abused under all kind of circumstances.

Fixed that for you.

 

[trekfan55]

Agree with your middle paragraph, but here's my question for you:

I'm an NFL or NBA owner (bear with me). I think this over and decide to abolish my cheerleading squad, for two reasons:

1. I face up to the fact that cheerleading squads sell sex. That's what it is, and if anyone here thinks differently, please present the argument. I'm not comfortable with that anymore. That's not what I'm about; I don't want the team that I own to be about that.

2. I don't want to run the legal risk. I can't police at any acceptable cost what happens at team affiliated events, after parties, and so forth. And although cheerleaders generally know what all this is about, there can be an element of coercion that I cannot control and that I'm unwilling to subject them or myself to.

You have a problem with my decision to terminate the cheerleading squad?

Well, if you own an NFL team and you feel that this is not the image you want to show, or you believe that women may be put in unsafe situations (that may be beyond your control, such as a millionaire fan assaulting a cheerleader after a party) it is completely your pregrorative. Especially if you do face such liabilities.

But would you terminate a school's competitive cheerleading sqaud, or dance activities, or even the female voleeyball team because the kids and men were ogling the players?

Fixed that for you.

Agreed. All circumstances. That is a sad reality, and as a father of two teenage girls I fear that everyday.

But my focus was on this thread and this topic.

 

[John Marzano Olympic Hero]

Agree with your middle paragraph, but here's my question for you:

I'm an NFL or NBA owner (bear with me). I think this over and decide to abolish my cheerleading squad, for two reasons:

1. I face up to the fact that cheerleading squads sell sex. That's what it is, and if anyone here thinks differently, please present the argument. I'm not comfortable with that anymore. That's not what I'm about; I don't want the team that I own to be about that.

2. I don't want to run the legal risk. I can't police at any acceptable cost what happens at team affiliated events, after parties, and so forth. And although cheerleaders generally know what all this is about, there can be an element of coercion that I cannot control and that I'm unwilling to subject them or myself to.

You have a problem with my decision to terminate the cheerleading squad?

I think that trekfan has a good answer.

But it sounds like if you're the sports owner, (aside from the squad sells sex, which I mean is probably true but I doubt that's why cheerleaders do it) you want to terminate the cheerleading team because it's a big pain in the ass. Which is fine. Or instead of terminating the cheerleading squad, you could make sure that the people below you aren't pimping your women. Aren't taking their passports away from them when they go to a foreign country. Aren't taking nude calendar shots while the folks who own luxury boxes are standing around with a hand jammed in their shorts.

I don't mean to get on a soapbox here or turn this into an After School Special, but maybe try being decent to people. If you're an owner, pay your cheerleaders a livable wage (or a wage that's equal to a part-time employee). Maybe look at them like their someone's daughter or sister and not cattle to improve your luxury box attendance. I know that our president is a fucking asshole, but not everyone has to be.

 

[joe dokes]

I think the concept of cheerleader has evolved for the better. In the 70s, high school girls had considerably fewer playing opportunities, and the girls cheering on the boys because "you don't expect them to play, do you" was probably still part of the equation, a relic of an earlier time when cheering on the men was a woman's role. While the "cheering" role still exists, cheer is now a serious, standalone sport.

I think that Snyder, or at least the people he's catering to, are part of the mindset that occupied the 50s, was still dominant when I was in high school in the 70s, and, clearly, is not yet extinct, i.e., that women are there to serve men.

 

[BigJimEd]

Agree with your middle paragraph, but here's my question for you:

I'm an NFL or NBA owner (bear with me). I think this over and decide to abolish my cheerleading squad, for two reasons:

1. I face up to the fact that cheerleading squads sell sex. That's what it is, and if anyone here thinks differently, please present the argument. I'm not comfortable with that anymore. That's not what I'm about; I don't want the team that I own to be about that.

2. I don't want to run the legal risk. I can't police at any acceptable cost what happens at team affiliated events, after parties, and so forth. And although cheerleaders generally know what all this is about, there can be an element of coercion that I cannot control and that I'm unwilling to subject them or myself to.

You have a problem with my decision to terminate the cheerleading squad?

Number 1 sure.
Number 2 I have a problem with. Of course you can police at team events etc... If you can't then you shouldn't hold that event. Do you protect your other employees?
Why are these employees different?

 

[Infield Infidel]

I think the concept of cheerleader has evolved for the better. In the 70s, high school girls had considerably fewer playing opportunities, and the girls cheering on the boys because "you don't expect them to play, do you" was probably still part of the equation, a relic of an earlier time when cheering on the men was a woman's role. While the "cheering" role still exists, cheer is now a serious, standalone sport.

I think that Snyder, or at least the people he's catering to, are part of the mindset that occupied the 50s, was still dominant when I was in high school in the 70s, and, clearly, is not yet extinct, i.e., that women are there to serve men.

It's interesting how completely different pro sports cheerleading is compared to college cheerleading. College cheerleaders have their own competitions, include more varied body shapes, dress more conservatively, cheer for women's sports, and have a lot more dudes. A squad of 20 cheerleaders probably has 4 or 5 guys. (An old roommate of mine was a cheerleader and still coaches, dude is jacked, like 6-4 250.) And also since there's less PA music in college they actually lead cheers along with the band. It's almost categorically different from the pros.

 

[trekfan55]

The white washing starts.

Two former Captains (and who were present on the trip) deny everything. Note: They went at the request of the team.

Of note, they are not denying most of the things that happened, but are saying that nothing was ever forced.

So no one at any point asked "how did you feel when they took away your passports upon arrival?" Or "How did you feel about not being compensated for this trip?"

 

[DJnVa]

So are they "denying everything" or not? Because your post says both.

 

[trekfan55]

Wasn't clear. The trip happened but according to them nothing "bad" happened.

 

[GoDa]

While an event consisting of wealthy sponsors paying money to fly out of the country and frolic with scantily clad NFL cheerleaders on a calendar shoot is not something the NFL really wants to be publicly associated with... especially in today's environment... it isn't hard for me to believe that the actual cheerleaders involved could have vastly different thoughts on what happened - ranging from "it was totally awesome!" to "I felt pressured and it was creepy!"

 

[Reverend]

While an event consisting of wealthy sponsors paying money to fly out of the country and frolic with scantily clad NFL cheerleaders on a calendar shoot is not something the NFL really wants to be publicly associated with... especially in today's environment... it isn't hard for me to believe that the actual cheerleaders involved could have vastly different thoughts on what happened - ranging from "it was totally awesome!" to "I felt pressured and it was creepy!"

So voluntarism is at issue, yes?

 

[jose melendez]

The white washing starts.

Two former Captains (and who were present on the trip) deny everything. Note: They went at the request of the team.

Of note, they are not denying most of the things that happened, but are saying that nothing was ever forced.

So no one at any point asked "how did you feel when they took away your passports upon arrival?" Or "How did you feel about not being compensated for this trip?"

That response is complete chickenshit. Great, no one put a gun to your head, but we’re there implicit sanctions for not going along? And it still doesn’t change that they didn’t get paid. I’m in Africa for work right now, and I’m thrilled and I probably would do it for free, but guess what? They still pay me because it’s work.

 

[trekfan55]

That response is complete chickenshit. Great, no one put a gun to your head, but we’re there implicit sanctions for not going along? And it still doesn’t change that they didn’t get paid. I’m in Africa for work right now, and I’m thrilled and I probably would do it for free, but guess what? They still pay me because it’s work.

Oh absolutely. I have traveled on business to several major tourist destinations. Going into Aruba with a bag full of samples, getting into and out of a hotel that is full of tourists but doing so on business, etc. is certainly not a vacation or a resort stay. It's work. What they did at that resort was work. Should be compensated as such.

What bothered me is this:

“I think that being friendly and receptive and welcoming to sponsors is completely different than being an escort,” she said.

From the article. Being at a party and being gracious to sponsors is one thing. Traveling to Costa Rica, having your passports taken away, participating in photo shoots where you have to be topless (yeah, maybe no one was parading around the resort topless) in view of said sponsors, being told to wear specific clothes and heels, and being told (not asked) to go to a party/night club with said sponsors. Well, how many lines did that cross?

 

[jose melendez]

Yup. I'm literally sitting by myself, with my computer, on a roofdeck in Windhoek Namibia surrounded by German tourists... glad I'm getting paid.

 

[koufax32]

Yup. I'm literally sitting by myself, with my computer, on a roofdeck in Windhoek Namibia surrounded by German tourists... glad I'm getting paid.

Complete aside but I expect numerous photographs posted here, especially night shots, if you’re ever in the desert. It’s pretty high on my bucket list.

 

[Reverend]

There may be some way to square taking a person's passport and the claim that you are treating them as full, autonomous human beings deserving of being treated with the innate dignity the term entails, but if there is, I can't figure it out right now.

That's the Rosetta Stone of all this, even if everything else wasn't so abjectly awful too.

I mean, that's their concrete evidence of their fucking citizenship, ferchrissakes.

 

[jose melendez]

Complete aside but I expect numerous photographs posted here, especially night shots, if you’re ever in the desert. It’s pretty high on my bucket list.

I took a vacation trip some years ago and it was spectacular. This is just business, so its all city.

 

[LondonSox]

Time to get rid of cheerleaders. It’s an outdated job. Like the term Freshmen. It’s sexist and mysoginistic. Plus the NFL treats them as a piece of meat and pays them less than McDonalds workers. We don’t need to exploit women any more.

This is one of the things that has constantly grated on me in the recent debates about sexual abuse etc. This idea that we should get rid of things in reaction.
This is a small step from let's not hire attractive women as the men can't be trusted.

If the women want to dance and cheerlead they should be able to, at a fair wage, without being absused and asked to do things outside that job.

Many cheerleaders love cheerleading, it's obvious it's not for the money. To punish them because the owners are fucking douchebags and abusive is punishing the victim.

Just don't be creeps.

I listened to the daily with a saints cheerleader on and it wasn't the job it was the treatment, it was the fact that they we're given all the rules to follow and grossly unfair.

This isn't really at you as much as the general, this is terrible let's stop it. The it should be the behavior of the men doing outrageous things, not the women being forced to stop doing something to avoid unfair treatment

I think there is a difference between cheerleaders being mistreated and cheerleading being inherently wrong. Cheerleaders at the NFL level have been grossly mistreated and obviously anything that was mentioned in the NYT article should not be happening and the people responsible for it should be held accountable. I also think that we have evolved as a society where sex appeal is used to market sports to the public is outdated. The only time you ever see the cheerleaders on an NFL broadcast is right before they show the sponsors of the game; and that needs to change. Maybe the NFL doesn't need cheerleaders at all.

However, I don't think we can just bluntly say that cheerleading is stupid and they should get rid of it entirely. Depending on what part of the country you live in, cheerleading might be a big fucking deal. A lot of people probably don't know that Eastern Massachusetts is like, the Texas of Pop Warner Cheerleading. Make it out of the regional and chances are you are going to win first at the National Championships. Both of my sisters went to Orlando twice and won the national championship when they were in middle school.

Now, I never had a great affinity for cheerleading. As a kid I remember being bored to tears sitting in the Tsongas Arena waiting for the cheerleading competition to end. All of the routines seemed the same to me and the music was too loud. But both my siblings loved it; it was athletic, incorporated dance and music, you got to wear makeup, it was outside in the fall and unlike doing ballet; there was a real competitive element to it. Yeah I don't give a shit about cheerleading and if it ceased to be a thing I wouldn't be missing out on anything, but if people really like doing it, it shouldn't be an issue.

The real issue is that women were taken advantage of and that cheerleaders are exploited by the NFL; not that cheerleading needs to go away.

Or this basically.

I'm sure they could, but again, some might like football, and this is a way to be around it, others like performing, others may use this as a stepping stone elsewhere, etc. Who are we else to decide what they should want to do?

The issue is abhorrent behavior by others, not them. The solution is not to take away what they like to do.

Co sign

These women are empowered. To chose want they want to do. You’re the one trying to limit their choices. Ultimately, that lets the creeps and abusers win.

Yes

 

[Hildy]

That's completely false. People objectify women's volleyball players all the time. There are a ton of pics on the web of women's asses in volleyball uniforms. There was a Simpsons episode where Homer says to Marge, "I just watched women's volleyball on ESPN" in attempt to show her that he was ready for sex. The same thing is true for women's soccer players, women's track and field athletes (there was an entire thread on this very board about ten years ago devoted to a high school T&F athlete and the skimpy clothes she wore) and I'm sure that there are others who oggle women's hoops and softball players (like Jennie Finch).
You are completely misunderstanding the point of the discussion here, which is no matter what sport a woman plays (from cheerleading to hoops to volleyball to soccer), it's gross when someone exploits or treats them as less than a human due to her profession. Getting rid of the profession is not going to get rid of this behavior. To deny someone pleasure in their chosen field because some assholes can't keep their dicks in their pants is punishing the wrong people.
It really couldn't be that much more clear.

I could not agree more wholeheartedly.
Which is why I hated that thread on this board about two months ago devoted to ogling world-class women athletes. It all sucks.