This is now: BB and the direction of the Patriots

[jsinger121]

I think a lot of this speculation is media people wishing. Kraft isn’t firing Belichick. He owes him $25 million for next year. But there are a lot of people in the media that have been waiting for him to be gone for a long time, and they feel like this id their best opportunity.

The money is a sunk cost at this point. Just pay it out and move on and maybe you get some offsets if he goes elsewhere.

 

[mcpickl]

Not quite sure where to put this, but since Bill is still the coach...

Trent Brown was a healthy scratch today and that removed any chance of earning his last playing time contract incentives:

Patriots cost Trent Brown big contract incentive by benching him (msn.com)

I've never heard of this reporter before, but this is a non-story(at least it should be)

The only chance he had of hitting his lowest rung of incentives was to play every snap, or at least close to every snap, in both of the last two games. He hasn't played more than 76% of the snaps in a single game since October. Even if he was active this week, a week in which he missed two practices with an illness, he wasn't going to play enough snaps to hit his incentives. They were already gone.

Once he started being unavailable, which happens almost every season, he was putting those incentives at risk.

 

[Salem's Lot]

The money is a sunk cost at this point. Just pay it out and move on and maybe you get some offsets if he goes elsewhere.

That’s easy for me and you to say. It’s not our money.

 

[Cellar-Door]

edit wrong thread

 

[lexrageorge]

Brown is a decent LT, but hardly elite or even borderline elite. And he’s unlikely to be a paragon of good health as he gets older. May as well move on. Not pinning this one on Bill.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

Brown is a decent LT, but hardly elite or even borderline elite. And he’s unlikely to be a paragon of good health as he gets older. May as well move on. Not pinning this one on Bill.

I went over the tackle market somewhere around here in the last week or so.

He's performed like a top 10-15 tackle. If you think he sucks, wait until you see the free agent market. It's fucking atrocious.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Edit- and again I'm in the wrong thread

 

[Garshaparra]

I went over the tackle market somewhere around here in the last week or so.

He's performed like a top 10-15 tackle. If you think he sucks, wait until you see the free agent market. It's fucking atrocious.

Yep, at this point, they must throw all eggs in the Onwenu basket AND draft best available tackle in the 2nd round (assuming they don't trade down slightly and get a top 2 LT and go for a lesser QB in the 2nd). There just isn't the talent there in FA to fill both positions.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yep, at this point, they must throw all eggs in the Onwenu basket AND draft best available tackle in the 2nd round (assuming they don't trade down slightly and get a top 2 LT and go for a lesser QB in the 2nd). There just isn't the talent there in FA to fill both positions.

Yeah, it's one of the cases for trading for Fields or signing Russ if he's cut (you can get a top tackle and then a WR at the top of the 2nd who could be really good)

 

[j-man]

Yeah, it's one of the cases for trading for Fields or signing Russ if he's cut (you can get a top tackle and then a WR at the top of the 2nd who could be really good)

u want russ are u sure

i hope russ goes to vegas russ at this point in his carrer at best is jeff blake at worst he only throw to 1 or 2 wr's does not throw over the millde also will run if his first read is coved if u take the deep shot away and keep him in the pocket u can stop him he can only work on a Balt SF type of roster

and he will be cut
he only wants to play on the west coast when seattle was trying to trade him he refused philly and wash because they where not on the west coast

 

[Cellar-Door]

u want russ are u sure

i hope russ goes to vegas russ at this point in his carrer at best is jeff blake at worst he only throw to 1 or 2 wr's does not throw over the millde also will run if his first read is coved if u take the deep shot away and keep him in the pocket u can stop him he can only work on a Balt SF type of roster

If he's cheap after getting cut... yes absolutely. For all his flaws he's a league average QB maybe better. Given how much DEN owes him and the offset, you could get him for a bargain that lets you build out the roster, setting it up to compete right away and set up an ideal spot to add a rookie QB in a year or two

 

[j-man]

i wouild love bill back for 1 more year because
denver best player is patrick surtain
IF denver gives up surtain their 24 1st 25 1st and 2nd bill will think long and hard about it
because surtain is a champ bailey type
this wouild allow petyon to get any qb not named QB C williams
it gives NE 2 eites CB'S and 3 ex picks to do their reset

 

[j-man]

If he's cheap after getting cut... yes absolutely. For all his flaws he's a league average QB maybe better. Given how much DEN owes him and the offset, you could get him for a bargain that lets you build out the roster, setting it up to compete right away and set up an ideal spot to add a rookie QB in a year or two

but without a etite def like he had in seattle he is a 500 qb now if he is willing to be a trent dipler type then he couild work but if he wants to cook his next team its gonna have a rough time

 

[NomarsFool]

I know UFA can sign whenever, but I'd guess most of them sign before the draft, right? Hopefully, the Pats will know whether Trent Brown is returning or not before they need to come up with their draft strategy. Trent Brown may not be an all-Pro, but he seems to be at least above average at his position. After QB, it certainly seems like WR is their biggest need. I have no idea how the other members of the Patriots' WR room would look if they all got moved down in the pecking order. That's the challenge a bit sometimes with these players is that a WR can look like crap if they are drawing the best cover corner on every play, but can look amazing if the other team's 5th or 6th DB or LB is covering them instead.

 

[Kull]

I've never heard of this reporter before, but this is a non-story(at least it should be)

The only chance he had of hitting his lowest rung of incentives was to play every snap, or at least close to every snap, in both of the last two games. He hasn't played more than 76% of the snaps in a single game since October. Even if he was active this week, a week in which he missed two practices with an illness, he wasn't going to play enough snaps to hit his incentives. They were already gone.

Once he started being unavailable, which happens almost every season, he was putting those incentives at risk.

I don't know him either but he was quoting Miguel, which makes it board-worthy. Especially in the context of this being a "healthy scratch" (information that is reporter-independent), something that Trent will probably see as a deliberate poke-in-the-wallet. All of which means he's almost certainly not coming back, something the board had been mooting as a possibility.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Trent Brown returning next season? There's a good chance he's getting released this week.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

i wouild love bill back for 1 more year because
denver best player is patrick surtain
IF denver gives up surtain their 24 1st 25 1st and 2nd bill will think long and hard about it
because surtain is a champ bailey type
this wouild allow petyon to get any qb not named QB C williams
it gives NE 2 eites CB'S and 3 ex picks to do their reset

You can't get away with just saying anything, homie. You think anyone is going to give up two firsts and a 2nd for Surtain? Shit. He COULD be Champ Bailey and that's still an overpay.

 

[j-man]

i said denver wouild give NE surtain for a pick swap in 24 and denver would give ne their 25 1st and 2nd round pick and suttain its just a idea IF patyon wants a top QB from this class but peyton will most likely try a stopgap for 24

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

i said denver wouild give NE surtain for a pick swap in 24 and denver would give ne their 25 1st and 2nd round pick and suttain its just a idea IF patyon wants a top QB from this class but peyton will most likely try a stopgap for 24

Ooohhh. Alright that makes more sense. I knew you were better than the way I read the proposal.

 

[Dogman]

Brown is also lazy, disengaged and an extortion artist. Glad they won’t give him incentives.

What the hell is this shit?

Complete and total bullshit, nonsense, and talk radio level crap.

This is not tolerated here. Do better fast.

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

What the hell is this shit?

Complete and total bullshit, nonsense, and talk radio level crap.

This is not tolerated here. Do better fast.

I gotta he honest, I like Singer, but his takes have been pretty poop the last few months.

Do whatever you can to cut bait from BB. Every player on offense needs to go. Trent Brown is a turd.

I feel like it's performance art.

 

[luckiestman]

I gotta he honest, I like Singer, but his takes have been pretty poop the last few months.

Do whatever you can to cut bait from BB. Every player on offense needs to go. Trent Brown is a turd.

I feel like it's performance art.

New Year’s resolution to be a kiss ass? Good luck!

 

[Kenny F'ing Powers]

New Year’s resolution to be a kiss ass? Good luck!

I was setting myself up for greatness later, and you fucked it up. Thanks.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

What the hell is this shit?

Complete and total bullshit, nonsense, and talk radio level crap.

This is not tolerated here. Do better fast.

The ‘extortion artist’ bit is actually lifted from talk radio, so you aren’t off here. Shit is like a language virus.

 

[luckiestman]

I was setting myself up for greatness later, and you fucked it up. Thanks.

God, I really love ruining stuff. Thank you for having hopes and dreams so I could realize mine.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Wait, so what’s the reason that Brown didn’t play today?

 

[E5 Yaz]

Wait, so what’s the reason that Brown didn’t play today?

Sent to Atlanta as the PTBNL in the Sale trade

 

[Cellar-Door]

Trent Brown is fascinating. He was legitimately great here, signed elsewhere, was terrible, came back was very good. He's mercurial, a pain in the ass and gets hurt a good amount. He thinks he should get paid like a top tackle.... because he grades out like one, but he got that once, and now nobody is willing to do it again. He's Jamie Collins on the offense.

I assume he's gone in the offseason, but not 100%, because there is always the chance he goes out and finds that nobody else values him like he expects either.

 

[Justthetippett]

Trent Brown is fascinating. He was legitimately great here, signed elsewhere, was terrible, came back was very good. He's mercurial, a pain in the ass and gets hurt a good amount. He thinks he should get paid like a top tackle.... because he grades out like one, but he got that once, and now nobody is willing to do it again. He's Jamie Collins on the offense.

I assume he's gone in the offseason, but not 100%, because there is always the chance he goes out and finds that nobody else values him like he expects either.

Fascinating is a fair adjective. You can't blame him for wanting to get paid top money, and it's not a case without merit given his talent, play and the market for his services. But then he undermines his own argument with the inconsistency, unreliability and interpersonal challenges with the coaching staff. To me, he's a classic case of unfulfilled potential.

 

[NDame616]

Trent Brown is fascinating. He was legitimately great here, signed elsewhere, was terrible, came back was very good. He's mercurial, a pain in the ass and gets hurt a good amount. He thinks he should get paid like a top tackle.... because he grades out like one, but he got that once, and now nobody is willing to do it again. He's Jamie Collins on the offense.

I assume he's gone in the offseason, but not 100%, because there is always the chance he goes out and finds that nobody else values him like he expects either.

Not playing today (and presumably next week) cost him $6.5M in earnings. I see no situation where either side returns to the other and tries to work out a deal in 2024

 

[lexrageorge]

I went over the tackle market somewhere around here in the last week or so.

He's performed like a top 10-15 tackle. If you think he sucks, wait until you see the free agent market. It's fucking atrocious.

I'll admit that Trent Brown has been a good LT when he's played. Top 10-15 puts him in the good, but not elite category. Nothing wrong with being good, of course.

The problem is that he's missed 4 games this season (plus yesterday's loss). He was healthy last season, but missed 8 games the prior season, which followed 2 seasons with the Raiders when he was mostly unavailable. He'll be 31 next year, which puts him well into the back 9 of his career as a tackle; he's unlikely to be less injury prone next season.

I don't always trust the reporting in cases like this; he was listed as DNP most of the week with illness; he may have simply been not healthy enough to play. Still, it seems likely he's gone. Both Bill the coach and Bill the GM have really good track records of letting go of players at the right time, so it's hard to pin this situation on Bill.

 

[Ed Hillel]

What the hell is this shit?

Complete and total bullshit, nonsense, and talk radio level crap.

This is not tolerated here. Do better fast.

How about a quote from the HC of the NEP?
View: https://twitter.com/wbzsports/status/1741618063689056270?s=42&t=-Ai-mpXJJ05V-SE-SPRBGA

This is not the first time in New England, or outside of New England, we have seen character concerns related to Trent Brown. Yeah, the other on field options are crap, but I wouldn’t begrudge any coach or GM who wanted to avoid giving this guy big money.

Fact is, they need to spend an entire draft on offense. ENTIRE DRAFT. Two of those picks at least should be on the OL, including a high rounder. I’m not sure I can trust Bill to actually do something like this at this point, so if Kraft wants to go another route, I’m on board at this point. The defense is fucking stacked, go make an offense. And pay top dollar for Barmore.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Not playing today (and presumably next week) cost him $6.5M in earnings. I see no situation where either side returns to the other and tries to work out a deal in 2024

Not true - that bit of misinformation really spread like wildfire yesterday, so I don’t blame you.

View: https://twitter.com/patscap/status/1741508334115590375?s=20

 

[Cellar-Door]

Not playing today (and presumably next week) cost him $6.5M in earnings. I see no situation where either side returns to the other and tries to work out a deal in 2024

So as others noted, it only "cost" him $750k. And even that was mostly just Miguel being conservative, he wasn't playing enough snaps the last 2 games to make that one.

I do think he's probably gone, but... guys come back all the time after blowups over contracts if the team needs them enough and the player realizes that nobody else wants to pay him either.

 

[tims4wins]

Barnwell names his All Pro first and 2nd team across 25 positions (11 offense, 11 defense, 3 ST), so 50 total players. Not a single Patriot made the list. I didn't check to see which other teams don't have a player either.

But I think that about sums it up. They don't have a single top 50 player in the NFL.

 

[jsinger121]

Barnwell names his All Pro first and 2nd team across 25 positions (11 offense, 11 defense, 3 ST), so 50 total players. Not a single Patriot made the list. I didn't check to see which other teams don't have a player either.

But I think that about sums it up. They don't have a single top 50 player in the NFL.

Goes back to scouting, drafting, player development, quality coaching, etc. This all falls under Belichick and a big reason for him not to return and just clean this operation out. X’s and O’s only takes you so far. Sometimes you need to take a step back to move two steps forward.

 

[TSC]

Barnwell names his All Pro first and 2nd team across 25 positions (11 offense, 11 defense, 3 ST), so 50 total players. Not a single Patriot made the list. I didn't check to see which other teams don't have a player either.

But I think that about sums it up. They don't have a single top 50 player in the NFL.

If Matthew Judon and Christian Gonzalez don't get hurt, I think that list maybe looks a little different.

 

[jsinger121]

If Matthew Judon and Christian Gonzalez don't get hurt, I think that list maybe looks a little different.

Except Matthew Judon has never been an all pro type player. He’s good but I’d take a handful of players ahead of him to put on an all pro team. He’s a pro bowl type player.

 

[jose melendez]

I’d been really disappointed with the terrible coaching earlier in the year, but I’ve gradually come around to wanting bb back at least as coach. The team is still bad, but with Mac benched they have been much, much better. I also really appreciate that the team has continued to play hard— that doesn’t happen for most coaches with teams this bad. I think he should get one more year.

 

[BaseballJones]

Here's how many all-pro players the Pats had on every team that went to the Super Bowl in the TB/BB era. Italics means 2nd team All-Pro.

2001 - Troy Brown (PR)
2003 - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Ty Law (CB)
2004 - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Rodney Harrison (S)
2007 - Tom Brady (QB), Randy Moss (WR), Wes Welker (WR), Dan Koppen (C), Logan Mankins (G), Matt Light (T), Vince Wilfork (DT), Ty Warren (DE), Mike Vrabel (LB), Asante Samuel (CB) - holy smokes
2011 - Wes Welker (WR), Logan Mankins (G), Vince Wilfork (DT), Matthew Slater (ST)
2014 - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Darrelle Revis (CB), Stephen Gostkowski (K), Matthew Slater (ST)
2016 - Tom Brady (QB), Dont'a Hightower (LB), Malcom Butler (CB), Devin McCourty (S), Matthew Slater (ST), Nate Ebner (ST)
2017 - Tom Brady (QB), Rob Gronkowski (TE), Matthew Slater (ST)
2018 - Stephon Gilmore (CB), Cordarrelle Patterson (KR)

That 2007 team was SICK. TEN guys on either first or second team All-Pro. That's nuts.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Barnwell names his All Pro first and 2nd team across 25 positions (11 offense, 11 defense, 3 ST), so 50 total players. Not a single Patriot made the list. I didn't check to see which other teams don't have a player either.

But I think that about sums it up. They don't have a single top 50 player in the NFL.

Oh no, no all pros.

It's also not a list of the 50 top players, but position specific. So saying that don't have a top 50 player based on that list is not accurate.

Now I don't think they have a top 50 player, but I also don't think that is a major issue.

Do the Bills have top 50 players because they almost lost to a team with no top 50 players who also turned the ball over 4 times.

This debate is tiring, the Pats are a playoff team with average QB play, the roster isn't as shit as some people want to make it out to be.

This season needs to end so this debate can finally be resolved.

Also irrelevant, but Barnwell sucks and his lists tend to meh.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Here's how many all-pro players the Pats had on every team that went to the Super Bowl in the TB/BB era. Italics means 2nd team All-Pro.

2001 - Troy Brown (PR)
2003 - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Ty Law (CB)
2004 - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Rodney Harrison (S)
2007 - Tom Brady (QB), Randy Moss (WR), Wes Welker (WR), Dan Koppen (C), Logan Mankins (G), Matt Light (T), Vince Wilfork (DT), Ty Warren (DE), Mike Vrabel (LB), Asante Samuel (CB) - holy smokes
2011 - Wes Welker (WR), Logan Mankins (G), Vince Wilfork (DT), Matthew Slater (ST)
2014 - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Darrelle Revis (CB), Stephen Gostkowski (K), Matthew Slater (ST)
2016 - Tom Brady (QB), Dont'a Hightower (LB), Malcom Butler (CB), Devin McCourty (S), Matthew Slater (ST), Nate Ebner (ST)
2017 - Tom Brady (QB), Rob Gronkowski (TE), Matthew Slater (ST)
2018 - Stephon Gilmore (CB), Cordarrelle Patterson (KR)

That 2007 team was SICK. TEN guys on either first or second team All-Pro. That's nuts.

Edit
Ignore I'm an idiot

So 9 seasons without any all pros up to 18. Those teams must have been trash.

 

[BaseballJones]

So 9 seasons without any all pros up to 18. Those teams must have been trash.

?? I didn't even look into the teams that didn't appear in a Super Bowl. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Saying that the Patriots would be a playoff team with an average QB makes one wonder why the GM didn’t just sign Joe frieking Flacco.

 

[Silverdude2167]

?? I didn't even look into the teams that didn't appear in a Super Bowl. I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

I mis read your post then, thought you did all seasons.

Nvm then.

 

[Silverdude2167]

Saying that the Patriots would be a playoff team with an average QB makes one wonder why the GM didn’t just sign Joe frieking Flacco.

Because the point isn't to be a playoff team.

It had to be Mac if the team wanted to contend in the next few years. So you ride with Mac to start the season. Maybe Flacco gets you to the playoffs, but probably not very far in them.

 

[BaseballJones]

All-Pros on the Pats in the TB/BB era when they did NOT make it to the Super Bowl...

2002 - Adam Vinatieri (K)
2005 - Tom Brady (QB)
2006 - Richard Seymour (DT)
2008 - Wes Welker (WR), Stephen Gostkowski (K)
2009 - Wes Welker (WR), Vince Wilfork (DT)
2010 - Tom Brady (QB), Sebastian Vollmer (T), Vince Wilfork (DT), Jerod Mayo (LB), Devin McCourty (S)
2012 - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Logan Mankins (G), Vince Wilfork (DT), Matthew Slater (ST)
2013 - Logan Mankins (G), Devin McCourty (S)
2015 - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Stephen Gostkowski (K)

 

[MuppetAsteriskTalk]

Anybody know how Barmore is stacking up against other DT in the 2nd half of this season? He seems dominant, but I don't know how to find those rankings and filter for more recent games, etc.

 

[BaseballJones]

So here's all 18 seasons:

2001 (1 1st team, 0 2nd team, 1 TOT) - Troy Brown (PR)
2002 (1 1st team, 0 2nd team, 1 TOT) - Adam Vinatieri (K)
2003 (2 1st team, 1 2nd team, 3 TOT) - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Ty Law (CB)
2004 (1 1st team, 2 2nd team, 3 TOT) - Richard Seymour (DL), Tedy Bruschi (LB), Rodney Harrison (S)
2005 (0 1st team, 1 2nd team, 1 TOT) - Tom Brady (QB)
2006 (0 1st team, 1 2nd team, 1 TOT) - Richard Seymour (DT)
2007 (7 1st team, 3 2nd team, 10 TOT) - Tom Brady (QB), Randy Moss (WR), Wes Welker (WR), Dan Koppen (C), Logan Mankins (G), Matt Light (T), Vince Wilfork (DT), Ty Warren (DE), Mike Vrabel (LB), Asante Samuel (CB) - holy smokes
2008 (1 1st team, 1 2nd team, 2 TOT) - Wes Welker (WR), Stephen Gostkowski (K)
2009 (1 1st team, 1 2nd team, 2 TOT) - Wes Welker (WR), Vince Wilfork (DT)
2010 (2 1st team, 3 2nd team, 5 TOT) - Tom Brady (QB), Sebastian Vollmer (T), Vince Wilfork (DT), Jerod Mayo (LB), Devin McCourty (S)
2011 (3 1st team, 1 2nd team, 4 TOT) - Wes Welker (WR), Logan Mankins (G), Vince Wilfork (DT), Matthew Slater (ST)
2012 (3 1st team, 1 2nd team, 4 TOT) - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Logan Mankins (G), Vince Wilfork (DT), Matthew Slater (ST)
2013 (0 1st team, 2 2nd team, 2 TOT) - Logan Mankins (G), Devin McCourty (S)
2014 (3 1st team, 1 2nd team, 4 TOT) - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Darrelle Revis (CB), Stephen Gostkowski (K), Matthew Slater (ST)
2015 (2 1st team, 0 2nd team, 2 TOT) - Rob Gronkowski (TE), Stephen Gostkowski (K)
2016 (1 1st team, 5 2nd team, 6 TOT) - Tom Brady (QB), Dont'a Hightower (LB), Malcom Butler (CB), Devin McCourty (S), Matthew Slater (ST), Nate Ebner (ST)
2017 (2 1st team, 1 2nd team, 3 TOT) - Tom Brady (QB), Rob Gronkowski (TE), Matthew Slater (ST)
2018 (2 1st team, 0 2nd team, 2 TOT) - Stephon Gilmore (CB), Cordarrelle Patterson (KR)

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

Saying that the Patriots would be a playoff team with an average QB makes one wonder why the GM didn’t just sign Joe frieking Flacco.

One reason, which nobody really talks about much, is that they have been right on the edge of the cap all year. Flacco is not super expensive and obviously they could use tricks to borrow some of next year’s cap, but they are spending to the limit.

Which is kind of crazy when you consider they have very cheap QBs but still are a full cap team for this band of jolly misfit toys.

Cap space is not a one year thing, and they have money coming off the books next year, but it is astounding and unreported that this team has zero cap space to carry forward. They are 31 out of 32 teams in carry forward cap space, just ahead of the Broncos. The Niners — just to take an infuriating example of a team with cost control at the QB position — have over $35 million to carry forward.

Again, I know Flacco is not expensive, but the point is that the Patriots have been having to penny pinch all year just to make practice squad moves and are going to just make it by the skin of their teeth. This team was never going to win in the playoffs so I am glad they never raided next year’s money just to elevate from bad to mediocre.