Thoughts/Impressions on “The Dynasty” Apple TV Series

[Red Averages]

I think Curran’s summation before the series came out are spot on:

“It got every bit as bad as we told you. It was even better than you remember.”

Given the power dynamics at play, the attention that comes from sustained winning, it’s a testament to how good BB and Brady were that they held onto it for so long, after it had started to come apart years earlier.

It also probably helps that Brady/McDaniels and BB had different roles. Despite the friction, BB could lean into the defense in the last few years while trying to cater a bit towards TB12 with some of the desperation GM signings/trades (Brown, Gordon, Sanu, Bennett at TE).

What a hell of a ride.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Yeah, I’m not in any hurry to subscribe to ATV+ and watch this now. Too many rumblings from too many places about the agenda of it. Maybe if it shows up on YouTube at some point.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Yeah, I’m not in any hurry to subscribe to ATV+ and watch this now. Too many rumblings from too many places about the agenda of it. Maybe if it shows up on YouTube at some point.

There’s a lot of negativity - but I think part of that is because Bill’s departure is so fresh still.

I really enjoyed it - ups and downs. It was a great overall look at what happened during those years.

 

[bougrj1]

Put me in the camp of I enjoyed it and think RKK came off pretty bad. The fact that he still doesn't know why Butler was benched was appalling. You're owner of the team. The coach reports to you and you can't get an answer out of him as to why someone who played 98% of the snaps during the season didn't play defense in the Super Bow where your defense was getting smushed? Mind blowing.

 

[tims4wins]

Put me in the camp of I enjoyed it and think RKK came off pretty bad. The fact that he still doesn't know why Butler was benched was appalling. You're owner of the team. The coach reports to you and you can't get an answer out of him as to why someone who played 98% of the snaps during the season didn't play defense in the Super Bow where your defense was getting smushed? Mind blowing.

Yeah Butler is retired. It’s not like they need to protect him.

That being said, they made this about 5 years too early. They needed Bill to be several years removed from the team, and no active players from the Brady years still around.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Yeah Butler is retired. It’s not like they need to protect him.

That being said, they made this about 5 years too early. They needed Bill to be several years removed from the team, and no active players from the Brady years still around.

Except the person who most wanted it to happen will have a good chance to be dead in 5 years

 

[radsoxfan]

I hated being reminded about the Trump stuff. So nauseating.

Also, Guerrero is a complete fraud (maybe not his work with Tom in particular, but just in general) so hard for me to have any empathy for him or Brady in that situation.

Echo others that the Butler thing is still confusing and wish that was explored more.

Overall I definitely enjoyed it.

 

[tims4wins]

Except the person who most wanted it to happen will have a good chance to be dead in 5 years

Eh the book / hagiography was already written. And as noted, this docuseries painted Kraft in a far less favorable light than the book.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Eh the book / hagiography was already written. And as noted, this docuseries painted Kraft in a far less favorable light than the book.

Yeah - the story of what happened is one thing, but interviewing Bill in 5 years would likely yield a bit more openness than it did while he was still employed with the club.

 

[BaseballJones]

One thing seems apparent… while many many others are quite happy to take shots at BB, he never takes shots at anyone else. He just keeps quiet. I can’t think of one time where he has put someone on blast like people are doing to him.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

After skimming this thread I feel pretty good about not bothering to watch this

Its outstanding, but not perfect unless you think BB needs someone to interpret his words as well as choices. Its does a very good job of touching on a lot - but not all - of the events that shaped the dynasty and its made with overall admiration for what all of the people involved accomplished.

That said, its clearly not the documentary most here would make as it seems people were expecting more game action as well as things we focused on as redline Pats fans. It not for us - its for a much broader audience.

You probably did yourself a disservice reading the thread first. If you can get to a place of being open about it, its worth the time.

Edit: also I have a bias antenna and while its definitely pro Kraft, he doesn't come off perfect here as with many others. It feels like some of the criticisms are about the framing devices for the show - again the director made choices. However imo there is no real "agenda" - I think some of those claims are seeing things that aren't really there.

 

[tims4wins]

Its outstanding, but not perfect unless you think BB needs someone to interpret his words as well as choices. Its does a very good job of touching on a lot - but not all - of the events that shaped the dynasty and its made with overall admiration for what all of the people involved accomplished.

That said, its clearly not the documentary most here would make as it seems people were expecting more game action as well as things we focused on as redline Pats fans. It not for us - its for a much broader audience.

You probably did yourself a disservice reading the thread first. If you can get to a place of being open about it, its worth the time.

Eh not sure I agree about game action. I love the behind the scenes footage. But clearly this thing had the potential to be 100 times better with more honest interviews via the passage of time.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Eh not sure I agree about game action. I love the behind the scenes footage. But clearly this thing had the potential to be 100 times better with more honest interviews via the passage of time.

Its clearly not the documentary that you or many others here would make. I will watch the hell out of yours and will almost certainly hype it here.

But this is the Dynasty we got. I will be rewatching this a bunch. I need episode eight on my eyelids.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

There have been several documentaries about the Patriots but this is the first one that I thought was really terrible. I don’t have any problem with a documentary that shows the “dark side” of the Dynasty. But it wasn’t ALL dark side. In fact it was, at least for Patriots fans, 20 years of incredible joy. If you can’t capture that in a documentary you haven’t done your job. And even though Brady comes off as a little whiny, I give him credit for, in the end, saying that even with the ups and downs, the whole journey was a great one. It was!

On the whole, this documentary series was a near-complete journalistic failure. How do you spend the opening 5 minutes of an episode on Belichick's letter to Trump without mentioning Kraft's unwavering support for, including a a million-dollar donation, to Trump? And maybe the Brady locker MAGA hat seems like a minor detail, but it was huge detail at the time. Why was it there? Did Kraft give it to him? Did Trump give it to him? We never hear a peep about any of this.

And if, as McCourty said, the top three faces of the franchises were all Trump supporters, why not ask each of them what they think of Trump now? Why did they support him then? Do they still?

And how you make nearly an entire episode about the Malcolm Butler benching without coming close to solving the mystery of WHY he was benched is beyond me. If I'm your editor (in the newsroom sense, not the cutting room sense), I'm not letting you turn in that story without digging up at least some hard evidence on why this cataclysmic event happened. (Cataclysmic according to the players interviewed and the team's owner, anyway.)

While we're at it — yes, the Butler benching was bad, but was it THAT bad? The entire thrust of that episode is that the single, lone decision to keep Butler on the sidelines cost the Patriots the Super Bowl. But did it?

We heard several times that Brady threw for 505 yards, which was of course amazing. But why did that incredible yardage total result in just 33 points? Also not mentioned in the documentary's recount of that game is that fact that, with the Pats down 5 points and 2:16 on the clock in the 4th quarter — a situation where Tom Brady made his entire GOAT reputation by driving for touchdowns — Brady fumbled.

And then, after a Philly field goal, the Patriots were down 8 with 1:05 to go. At least a chance! With Tom Brady under center. Right? Well, not so much, Brady proceeded to complete just 3 of 8 pass attempts, extinguishing the game. None of that could have been changed by Malcolm Butler. But this documentary was so committed to the thesis that Belichick personally cost the Patriots that game with his mysterious and, it is strongly implied, vindictive and irrational decision to bench Butler, that none of the other factors are even mentioned.

Not saying I didn't find some enjoyable moments in these 10 episodes, so not a total failure in every respect. But overall grade: D.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

But overall grade: D.

Co-signed.

 

[Dogman]

No politics outside V&N. None. Regardless of context.

There is no leeway for this.

 

[tims4wins]

No politics outside V&N. None. Regardless of context.

There is no leeway for this.

Was there a post (or posts) deleted, or are you referring to something that is still visible?

 

[Dogman]

I deleted a post. If I missed another, point me to it.

 

[tims4wins]

I deleted a post. If I missed another, point me to it.

Not that I've seen. Credit to @Gene Conleys Plane Ticket for discussing the topic without it veering into V&N territory.

 

[Dogman]

Thanks.

 

[bougrj1]

But this is the Dynasty we got. I will be rewatching this a bunch. I need episode eight on my eyelids.

Yeah. The Brady/T Swift montage of “Look what you made me do” post Deflategate can be injected straight into my veins.

 

[Mugsy's Walk-Off Bunt]

While we're at it — yes, the Butler benching was bad, but was it THAT bad? The entire thrust of that episode is that the single, lone decision to keep Butler on the sidelines cost the Patriots the Super Bowl. But did it?

I think it's arguable that it did. Given the number of big plays - many 3rd and 4th down conversions - in a very close game, having even a below-average version of Malcolm Butler on the field instead of Johnson Bademosi/Jordan Richards seems likely to have changed the outcome. If BB had (admittedly this is impossibly out of character for the man) gone to Malcolm at, say, halftime, grabbed him by the facemask and said, "Don't ever do that (whatever it was) again. Now get the fuck out there and win us another Super Bowl!" I have very little doubt that Butler would've run onto the field and played like his hair was on fire. I can't help believing that that could well have made a marked difference in the play of the D overall and to the outcome of the game.

It's infuriating.

 

[tims4wins]

I think it's arguable that it did. Given the number of big plays - many 3rd and 4th down conversions - in a very close game, having even a below-average version of Malcolm Butler on the field instead of Johnson Bademosi/Jordan Richards seems likely to have changed the outcome. If BB had (admittedly this is impossibly out of character for the man) gone to Malcolm at, say, halftime, grabbed him by the facemask and said, "Don't ever do that (whatever it was) again. Now get the fuck out there and win us another Super Bowl!" I have very little doubt that Butler would've run onto the field and played like his hair was on fire. I can't help believing that that could well have made a marked difference in the play of the D overall and to the outcome of the game.

It's infuriating.

They just needed one more stop. They had so many chances. So many. I remember when the Eagles went for that 4th down from midfield, thinking that the game was on the line on that single play. And it basically was.

Edit: in case it's not clear, I agree with you.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I said it to my wife while we were watching this last night, I don’t know that Butler playing/not playing would have changed the outcome. But, benching a starter who had played 98% of the snaps without any kind of explanation to anyone is fucking absurd. Maybe me and Johnny Foxboro don’t deserve an explanation, but you know who does? Malcolm fucking Butler. How the fuck can you do that to someone in that setting without telling them why?

 

[BaseballJones]

I said it to my wife while we were watching this last night, I don’t know that Butler playing/not playing would have changed the outcome. But, benching a starter who had played 98% of the snaps without any kind of explanation to anyone is fucking absurd. Maybe me and Johnny Foxboro don’t deserve an explanation, but you know who does? Malcolm fucking Butler. How the fuck can you do that to someone in that setting without telling them why?

So this was being discussed yesterday on WEEI (I know, I know). Do we really think that Butler does not know why he was benched? He was obviously told right before the game that he wasn't playing, which is why he was in tears. I know we have all speculated some on what the reason(s) happened to be. Clearly it was something that Belichick thought severe enough that he simply could or would not play Butler (that one special teams play doesn't really count), probably unless he literally ran out of bodies due to injury. Even if that thing was more on a personal nature rather than strictly football-related.

I just find it hard to believe that Butler doesn't at least have some idea.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

Malcom was claiming a year ago that he has a book and documentary coming out where he will explain why he was benched.

BB would bench guys for being late to practice during a blizzard. Guys got benched for joking about feet. This could Butler falling asleep during film study. Who knows.

https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2023/02/malcolm-butler-will-discuss-patriots-super-bowl-benching-in-book-and-documentary.html

 

[Van Everyman]

If BB had (admittedly this is impossibly out of character for the man) gone to Malcolm at, say, halftime, grabbed him by the facemask and said, "Don't ever threaten the life of a coach/do coke for three days straight/etc. again. Now get the fuck out there and win us another Super Bowl!"

I’m sure that would’ve gone over well.

 

[djbayko]

There's no fucking way Butler doesn't know why he was benched. I'm thinking it must be something pretty bad and/or embarrassing if Bill refuses to talk about it, nobody on the team including Kraft know what it is, and Butler pretends it doesn't exist. If it was just a personal conflict between him and coach as Kraft claims, wouldn't Butler be making light of it now and how silly it was in his defense?

God, I hated the Deflatgate episode. It just reminded me of how stupid the whole thing was. I think it was actually harder to sit through than the 19-1 Giants SB episode. At least that one had incredible drama...and Randy Moss.

Was Bill being held at gunpoint and forced to do these interviews? I know he's a surly fella, but it really seemed like he didn't want to be there. I wonder if the makers of this film were particularly harsh with him in his interview to put him in such a clammed-up, defensive posture. There was the one moment where they asked him about Butler, and Bill immediately said "We talked about this" and gave him the stare of death, as if they knew they weren't supposed to go there.

They did give Bill credit here and there, especially at the end with the Rams SB "Mona Lisa" and talking about he is the greatest coach ever. But there was an awful lot of criticism -- much of it silly IMO. I would be watching it and thinking "Jeez, that's probably what makes him the best NFL coach of all time. I don't have a problem with that."

Agree with people on Pioli. He was great in this throughout.

 

[jacklamabe65]

Did we really think this was going to be a love note when we heard it was a ten-part documentary on a major streaming service not named ESPN? I watched the first two episodes, heard that it "went south" after that, and moved on. I remember what I remember - and it was largely magical.

 

[Van Everyman]

There's no fucking way Butler doesn't know why he was benched. I'm thinking it must be something pretty bad and/or embarrassing if Bill refuses to talk about it, nobody on the team including Kraft know what it is, and Butler pretends it doesn't exist. If it was just a personal conflict between him and coach as Kraft claims, wouldn't Butler be making light of it now and how silly it was in his defense?

God, I hated the Deflatgate episode. It just reminded me of how stupid the whole thing was. I think it was actually harder to sit through than the 19-1 Giants SB episode. At least that one had incredible drama...and Randy Moss.

Was Bill being held at gunpoint and forced to do these interviews? I know he's a surly fella, but it really seemed like he didn't want to be there. I wonder if the makers of this film were particularly harsh with him in his interview to put him in such a clammed-up, defensive posture. There was the one moment where they asked him about Butler, and Bill immediately said "We talked about this" and gave him the stare of death, as if they knew they weren't supposed to go there.

They did give Bill credit here and there, especially at the end with the Rams SB "Mona Lisa" and talking about he is the greatest coach ever. But there was an awful lot of criticism -- much of it silly IMO. I would be watching it and thinking "Jeez, that's probably what makes him the best NFL coach of all time. I don't have a problem with that."

Agree with people on Pioli. He was great in this throughout.

18-1*







*I know, too soon

 

[Cellar-Door]

Did we really think this was going to be a love note when we heard it was a ten-part documentary on a major streaming service not named ESPN? I watched the first two episodes, heard that it "went south" after that, and moved on. I remember what I remember - and it was largely magical.

to be fair it is a love note, from RKK's ego to himself. He got this thing made because he 100% thought that people would watch it and say "man that Bobby Kraft, what a genius, what a saint for putting up with Belichick"

 

[Justthetippett]

Thing is, RKK does deserve credit for keeping things together for 20 years. And I would have had more respect for him if he never made this doc. If this guy is laying awake at night thinking he's not getting enough credit, then he needs a new hobby/masseuse.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

So this was being discussed yesterday on WEEI (I know, I know). Do we really think that Butler does not know why he was benched? He was obviously told right before the game that he wasn't playing, which is why he was in tears. I know we have all speculated some on what the reason(s) happened to be. Clearly it was something that Belichick thought severe enough that he simply could or would not play Butler (that one special teams play doesn't really count), probably unless he literally ran out of bodies due to injury. Even if that thing was more on a personal nature rather than strictly football-related.

I just find it hard to believe that Butler doesn't at least have some idea.

I don’t know, if Butler was given a concrete reason for why he was benched don’t you think he might have mentioned it to some of the other players on the team who also don’t seem to know to this day why he was benched?

I find it hard to believe too, but I also find it hard to believe that this many years later Butler would go on camera and say he doesn’t know, that other players on the team don’t seem to know.

It is fucking bizarre all the way around.

 

[BaseballJones]

I don’t know, if Butler was given a concrete reason for why he was benched don’t you think he might have mentioned it to some of the other players on the team who also don’t seem to know to this day why he was benched?

I find it hard to believe too, but I also find it hard to believe that this many years later Butler would go on camera and say he doesn’t know, that other players on the team don’t seem to know.

It is fucking bizarre all the way around.

My gypothesis is that Butler did something they would have been extraordinarily embarrassing and humiliating for him if it ever became public. So BB couldn’t let him play but also wanted to protect him. And Butler doesn’t want it out there either. So BB to this day doesn’t say anything and Butler pretends that he doesn’t know. BB is willing to take the heat for it. We know he seems to like Butler since he took him back on the team. Or at least he doesn’t hold a grudge.

But who really knows.

I just cannot imagine BB benching a starting CB for a whole game when their D was getting shredded unless there was something pretty serious going on.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

But if only Belichick and Butler knew what he did, what would have been the harm in playing him? There’s this idea that Bill couldn’t play him because he would then lose the respect of the team (which makes no sense if they don’t know what he did) but seems like the opposite happened.

 

[Petagine in a Bottle]

Dupe

 

[sezwho]

But if only Belichick and Butler knew what he did, what would have been the harm in playing him? There’s this idea that Bill couldn’t play him because he would then lose the respect of the team (which makes no sense if they don’t know what he did) but seems like the opposite happened.

My best imagination is in some 1on1 interaction Butler tells BB to F himself (or whatever). Bill knows, and he knows Butler knows, but literally no one else does.

Puts Butler either in denial or a liar, and BB in a weird spot. He’s doing the right thing by the rules, but since no one else saw it happen there’s no one to validate and also oddly no one at risk of letting some bad precedent be set.

He could have let it slide, but that’s not BB, and I don’t think I would have in this (completely admittedly imaginary) situation.

 

[PayrodsFirstClutchHit]

But if only Belichick and Butler knew what he did, what would have been the harm in playing him? There’s this idea that Bill couldn’t play him because he would then lose the respect of the team (which makes no sense if they don’t know what he did) but seems like the opposite happened.

If Butler broke curfew, missed a bunch of practices, was MIA or had a blowup with one of the coaches then someone would have witnessed that. If it was trouble with the law then there would have been a police report. Nobody said he was dogging it in practice. As others have speculated it could be a private fight between BB and Butler. But if that is the case, why wouldn’t Butler just say he had a fight with BB.

And if BB is that petty that he is willing flush a SB “because it is what was best for the team” over an argument, then he deserves all of the criticism.

 

[slamminsammya]

The last super bowl looks even more impressive in retrospect. Brady knew he was done in New England, is barely speaking with Belichick, and they still go out and win the whole thing.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

My gypothesis is that Butler did something they would have been extraordinarily embarrassing and humiliating for him if it ever became public. So BB couldn’t let him play but also wanted to protect him. And Butler doesn’t want it out there either. So BB to this day doesn’t say anything and Butler pretends that he doesn’t know. BB is willing to take the heat for it. We know he seems to like Butler since he took him back on the team. Or at least he doesn’t hold a grudge.

But who really knows.

I just cannot imagine BB benching a starting CB for a whole game when their D was getting shredded unless there was something pretty serious going on.

Like, give me an idea of what the thing would be that only BB and Butler knew about, that if it became public would be embarrassing for Butler, and that BB felt like he had to bench him for the SB over it, but could never tell another sole about it? I’m trying to imagine what that might be, I can’t think of anything.

None of it makes any sense. I love Bill really I do but I think what these past few years are bringing more clearly into the light is that he’s a stubborn motherfucker and nobody is going to tell him how to run his football team. And, while we always knew that, I think the one thing the Dynasty documentary seems to make clear is that Bill’s inability to change his style even a little to accomodate the best player to ever play the game of football was what eventually led this all to fall apart.

The Butler thing is an interesting side note. Again I’m not sure it matters, but without explanation it sure as shit doesn’t seem like Bill doing what is in the best interest of the team. And while he may not owe an explanation to the media or the fans, eventually doing shit like this will catch up with you in the locker room.

 

[BaseballJones]

Like, give me an idea of what the thing would be that only BB and Butler knew about, that if it became public would be embarrassing for Butler, and that BB felt like he had to bench him for the SB over it, but could never tell another sole about it? I’m trying to imagine what that might be, I can’t think of anything.

None of it makes any sense. I love Bill really I do but I think what these past few years are bringing more clearly into the light is that he’s a stubborn motherfucker and nobody is going to tell him how to run his football team. And, while we always knew that, I think the one thing the Dynasty documentary seems to make clear is that Bill’s inability to change his style even a little to accomodate the best player to ever play the game of football was what eventually led this all to fall apart.

The Butler thing is an interesting side note. Again I’m not sure it matters, but without explanation it sure as shit doesn’t seem like Bill doing what is in the best interest of the team. And while he may not owe an explanation to the media or the fans, eventually doing shit like this will catch up with you in the locker room.

Maybe Butler slept with a coach’s wife or at least put the moves on her. Who knows. That’s one idea, since you asked what I could imagine.

I just cannot wrap my head around BB being so petty that he would rather lose a Super Bowl than give in to something small. THAT makes no sense to me.

 

[BigSoxFan]

The last super bowl looks even more impressive in retrospect. Brady knew he was done in New England, is barely speaking with Belichick, and they still go out and win the whole thing.

And they did it by beating a budding dynasty on the road in the AFCCG. That 2018 AFCCG was such a masterpiece.

 

[tims4wins]

Like, give me an idea of what the thing would be that only BB and Butler knew about, that if it became public would be embarrassing for Butler, and that BB felt like he had to bench him for the SB over it, but could never tell another sole about it? I’m trying to imagine what that might be, I can’t think of anything.

None of it makes any sense. I love Bill really I do but I think what these past few years are bringing more clearly into the light is that he’s a stubborn motherfucker and nobody is going to tell him how to run his football team. And, while we always knew that, I think the one thing the Dynasty documentary seems to make clear is that Bill’s inability to change his style even a little to accomodate the best player to ever play the game of football was what eventually led this all to fall apart.

The Butler thing is an interesting side note. Again I’m not sure it matters, but without explanation it sure as shit doesn’t seem like Bill doing what is in the best interest of the team. And while he may not owe an explanation to the media or the fans, eventually doing shit like this will catch up with you in the locker room.

Man you hit the nail on the head. I made a post in P&G a couple years ago called F U BB when it became clear that he screwed up in moving on from Brady. I think the docuseries is making that point even more clear now, sadly.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Maybe Butler slept with a coach’s wife or at least put the moves on her. Who knows. That’s one idea, since you asked what I could imagine.

I just cannot wrap my head around BB being so petty that he would rather lose a Super Bowl than give in to something small. THAT makes no sense to me.

Benched Welker for a series in a playoff game that they ultimately lost. Not sure why he took a much more ridiculous approach with Butler, especially for a player who literally won you a Super Bowl 3 years prior. This wasn’t some depth piece, it was a Super Bowl hero who also was the best DB on the team. Crazy.

 

[Pandemonium67]

Benched Welker for a series the entire first quarter in a playoff game that they ultimately lost.

That still kills me.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Benched Welker for a series the entire first quarter in a playoff game that they ultimately lost.

That still kills me.

Game log shows that Welker caught a pass in 2nd drive in first quarter so I think it was just one series. However, that first series was crucial because they were driving and Brady threw that awful pass to BJGE that Harris almost returned. And then Alge Crumpler happened on the next game.

That game was so miserable…

 

[gammoseditor]

The last super bowl looks even more impressive in retrospect. Brady knew he was done in New England, is barely speaking with Belichick, and they still go out and win the whole thing.

Absolutely. I love how the AFC championship game is an offensive masterpiece and the Super Bowl is a defensive one. Just a perfect way to go out.

This documentary is trash.

 

[canderson]

What a foul-tasting two-part finale filled with people who suck.

My theory is Butler confronted BB about the Trump stuff at some point. Or slept with his wife, whatever. It has to be very personal.

BB and Kraft come off as assholes who refuse to accept they aren’t the end all of anything. Brady comes off as a guy that lost all touch of reality.

 

[cornwalls@6]

Good lord, saw Krafts quote about Butler not playing in the Super Bowl. What an insufferable old fool. Attention whore. Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s burned some bridges with Bill over this shit.

 

[Gene Conleys Plane Ticket]

View: https://twitter.com/DanKelley66/status/1769109940042363170