What do you want Pats to do with #3?

What do you want the Pats to do with #3?

  • Trade multiple picks for #1 and take Williams

    Votes: 20 4.4%
  • Draft Jayden Daniels at #3

    Votes: 94 20.5%
  • Draft Drake Maye at #3

    Votes: 202 44.1%
  • Draft Marvin Harrison Jr. at #3

    Votes: 56 12.2%
  • Draft someone else not mentioned at #3 (please specify)

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Trade down and pick up more picks and take a WR (Nabers, Odunze, etc.)

    Votes: 11 2.4%
  • Trade down and pick up more picks and take an OL (Fashanu, Alt, etc.)

    Votes: 36 7.9%
  • Trade down and pick up more picks and take a QB (McCarthy, Penix, etc.)

    Votes: 36 7.9%

  • Total voters
    458

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
The delta between Maye/Daniels and Fields has to be large to want to pay him though. Maybe it is, but that seems impossible for the Patriots for figure out.
It would be a bit more complex too, because you're looking at:
1. difference between QB3 and Fields for floor (Fields is obviously higher he's played in the NFL).
2. Difference in reasonable ceiling,
3. Difference in reasonable mean outcome
4. Difference in impact of 3rd round pick vs new 1st rounder (and 2025 1st).
5. the key one.... where do you think you need to be for QB performance to compete and where do you see the two QBs falling in comparison to that line.

Generally I agree, Fields' contract situation does not make me think he's a good option over a top 3 QB. If we were outside the top 3... then it makes sense because then the comps are to QB prospects of a lower tier.
 

Mooch

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
4,552
I want Daniels. Let's go for the home run swing for the guy with the highest upside/variance and excitement level.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
I want Daniels. Let's go for the home run swing for the guy with the highest upside/variance and excitement level.
I don't think most would say Daniels has the highest upside, probably the lowest actually of the top 3. Might be the most exciting though (I think Caleb, but it's a Mahomes v. Lamar type style debate)
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
44,227
Here
The delta between Maye/Daniels and Fields has to be large to want to pay him though. Maybe it is, but that seems impossible for the Patriots for figure out.
It would be a bit more complex too, because you're looking at:
1. difference between QB3 and Fields for floor (Fields is obviously higher he's played in the NFL).
2. Difference in reasonable ceiling,
3. Difference in reasonable mean outcome
4. Difference in impact of 3rd round pick vs new 1st rounder (and 2025 1st).
5. the key one.... where do you think you need to be for QB performance to compete and where do you see the two QBs falling in comparison to that line.

Generally I agree, Fields' contract situation does not make me think he's a good option over a top 3 QB. If we were outside the top 3... then it makes sense because then the comps are to QB prospects of a lower tier.
It seems to me the most important factor is being left out of this equation, which is that the Patriots would also be adding a #1 WR who is more likely to be elite at his position than any of the QB being discussed as a lottery ticket. Of course QB is the most important position, but I'd argue WR is the second most important position on a football team. So I think if you can get that "can't miss" WR and also one of those other 4 QB lottery tickets for reasonable costs, you go with that option. If I thought any of those 4 QB were significantly more likely to succeed than the other (as Williams is), I'd change my mind, but I honestly don't. I'd prefer Nix over Fields because of the contract situation, but if the cost is too much, Fields seems like a reasonable alternative.
 

twibnotes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
20,374
McCarthy is a smaller Mac Jones with running ability. Don't want him at all.
I can’t guarantee mccarthy will be an nfl stud, but this take is very wrong. Mccarthy’s arm is FAR more powerful than Mac’s and he’s clubhouse leader type who is tough as nails.

He’s basically the opposite of Mac Jones.

And the speed thing is kind of a big deal - he’s extremely hard to sack and could end up running a 4.5 or better at the combine.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
It seems to me the most important factor is being left out of this equation, which is that the Patriots would also be adding a #1 WR who is more likely to be elite at his position than any of the QB being discussed as a lottery ticket. Of course QB is the most important position, but I'd argue WR is the second most important position on a football team. So I think if you can get that "can't miss" WR and also one of those other 4 QB lottery tickets for reasonable costs, you go with that option. If I thought any of those 4 QB were significantly more likely to succeed than the other (as Williams is), I'd change my mind, but I honestly don't. I'd prefer Nix over Fields because of the contract situation, but if the cost is too much, Fields seems like a reasonable alternative.
QB is far more important for 1.
I'd also say WR isn't top 3 (OT and Passrusher) I think if the Patriots got Fields they'd almost certainly be trading down and taking a tackle in the 1st (Alt likely, but maybe Fashanu or Fuaga).

I will also say, I want no part of Nix, at that point just keep Mac, Nix has nothing to make me think he'll be a good NFL starter, his arm is meh, his footwork is bad especially for his number of years in college. He had a lot of success in essentially a gimmick offense that was designed around him making a ton of 1 read short throws, RPOs and screens. At least with Penix you can dream on the arm and building him a great line and using him like AVP used Flacco. Nix to me is a guy who is going to have success in the NFL ONLY if he goes to a team like SF who builds the entire offense around finding ways for him to not have to do too much.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,638
02130
I hope the Pats FO doesn't overthink this as much as we are. Take the QB. We're drafting at 3 in a draft with 3 top tier (in terms of draft potential) QBs. Take him. You don't need a 3 year rebuild in the NFL, look at Houston. Take the QB, draft smart around him.
We've discussed this, Stroud is great but is the best non-#1 overall QB pick in a while, depending on what you think of Tua / Herbert I guess. I don't think it's "overthinking it" to note that whenever there are a few top QB prospects there tend to be busts and often it's "everyone who wasn't #1 isn't that great." I don't have any faith in this FO (with or without BB) picking out the best QB here and I really don't want them to take the third option just because he's a QB in the top tier, that's how we got Mac.

You can rebuild quickly but if you draft a bad QB high you lose 3-4 years figuring out if he's actually good unless he completely sucks and you can ditch him immediately like Lance.

I would take MHJ who has the highest probability of being an all-pro and worry about QB later. My second choice would be trading up for Williams if they really like him.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
Is Drake Maye the Josh Allen in this comp?
Maybe? Stylistically I still think he's more Herbert, but yes.

Note this is all style, Caleb is unlikely to be shortlist for GOAT after a couple years, Daniels is unlikely to be a multiple MVP, etc. etc. but... that's the style. Daniels is the dangerous runner who can throw particularly stuff like slot fades well, Caleb is the arm talent improvisation freak, etc.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,557
around the way
Maybe? Stylistically I still think he's more Herbert, but yes.

Note this is all style, Caleb is unlikely to be shortlist for GOAT after a couple years, Daniels is unlikely to be a multiple MVP, etc. etc. but... that's the style. Daniels is the dangerous runner who can throw particularly stuff like slot fades well, Caleb is the arm talent improvisation freak, etc.
Oh I know. These comps are style and 1% outcomes, mostly style.

They're also a good reminder for Daniels stans that the jury was out on Lamar and was largely wrong.
 

Bowser

New Member
Sep 27, 2019
431
I'm on an island on this one, but I voted other because I like JJ McCarthy at 3--and I'm not convinced you can trade down and get him. Although I'd consider maybe dropping down to 4, letting Arizona move up one to take MHJr, and picking up an additional asset.
This guy gets it!

To be clear, I'm with those who say if the Pats think Maye or Daniels is likely to become, say, a top 10 starter, then sure, draft him. Don't overthink it, as has been said here frequently.

Of course, I don't know what the Pats think, and yet I still want to type some shit. So let's say Williams has maybe a 35% chance of becoming a top 10 starting QB, Maye/Daniels maybe 20%, and McCarthy 15%. Am I willing to trade the farm for Williams so I can increase my odds from 20% to 35%?

No.

Am I happy to take an extra top 40 pick (or more) while decreasing my odds from 20% to 15%?

Yes.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,834
It seems to me the most important factor is being left out of this equation, which is that the Patriots would also be adding a #1 WR who is more likely to be elite at his position than any of the QB being discussed as a lottery ticket. Of course QB is the most important position, but I'd argue WR is the second most important position on a football team. So I think if you can get that "can't miss" WR and also one of those other 4 QB lottery tickets for reasonable costs, you go with that option. If I thought any of those 4 QB were significantly more likely to succeed than the other (as Williams is), I'd change my mind, but I honestly don't. I'd prefer Nix over Fields because of the contract situation, but if the cost is too much, Fields seems like a reasonable alternative.
Relative to Fields - he had a legit WR1 this season in DJ Moore. PFF graded out Moore as the 10th best WR this past season. No one is arguing that Moore is among the elite WRs in the league today, but he is superb.

MHJ, Nabors, and Odunze project to have a higher ceiling than Moore, but how quickly can they realize that. In other words, if the Pats traded for Fields and draft MHJ at 3, would Fields actually have a better WR corps in 2024 than he did in 2023? And given the Pats OLine uncertainty, would they even be putting Fields in a better situation to succeed than Chicago did last year?
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,486
He’s played 3 years, bro.

I think he has as much a chance as Daniels, who is rail thin and doesn’t seem to throw a very accurate ball based on tape. Add in MHJ and I’ll take that to start an offense. I have Fields pegged as a pretty middle of the pack QB with 3 years experience, who hasn‘t really been put into a great scenario. I think he has potential to become a perennial Top 10 QB, even if there’s some significant variance in the range of outcomes.
To be fair, I meant to type 4. Which still would have been wrong, but a closer wrong.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,116
Chelmsford, MA
For me the rebuild is likely 2-3 years long and I think they’re probably picking top 10ish next year. I’d rather they plan for that and take best player available. I’m really not sold on the QBs available so I’d probably prefer they draft MHJ and expect to need to look at QB next year or via other avenues. Of course if they really believe in one of these QBs they should go for it but to me the Mac Jones experience was so scarring that these shorter guys or guys with weaker arms are just immediately out to me. That’s likely an overreaction on my part but that’s how I answer the question

Edit: I’m not particularly sold on Fields but I do wonder if there isn’t a play to be made to try to acquire busted highly drafted QBs based upon the idea that QBs don’t get enough seasoning in college or pros anymore and that it may just take longer than it used to in order to get the talent out of these guys. There’s such a lack of game situation practice reps available for these guys. Like you take the Fields/Wilson/Lances of the world and see whether they can hit with 5 or 6 years in the league. Kind of a half baked thought but you see a guy like Baker doing ok over time and maybe these guys aren’t as bad as they initially look
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
54,231
Of course if they really believe in one of these QBs they should go for it but to me the Mac Jones experience was so scarring that these shorter guys or guys with weaker arms are just immediately out to me. That’s likely an overreaction on my part but that’s how I answer the question
Neither dude is short.

Drake Maye is 6'4 with a rocket.

Jayden Daniels is also 6'4 and doesn't have a cannon but is considered a good deep thrower.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
Neither dude is short.

Drake Maye is 6'4 with a rocket.

Jayden Daniels is also 6'4 and doesn't have a cannon but is considered a good deep thrower.
yeah, you really could not have a top 3 of QBs with less in common with Mac, far more mobility, 2 guys with cannons (Daniels is closer to Mac, but I think better arm strength). They all have their own potential flaws as all prospects do, but they are different than the ones Mac had/has.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,045
AZ
My vote I think is similar to others'. Keep 3, take the best QB available and hope. If it doesn't work out, take another one in 3 years. It's the only path to sustained success. You can have a good quarterback and suck, but it takes more than we seem to have right now to be able to have a mediocre QB and win consistently.

If we were picking 1st or 2d, it would be worth the mental energy of trying to figure out which one is the best. But at 3, the top 2 teams are going to make our pick for us.
 

teddykgb

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
11,116
Chelmsford, MA
Neither dude is short.

Drake Maye is 6'4 with a rocket.

Jayden Daniels is also 6'4 and doesn't have a cannon but is considered a good deep thrower.
I agree that Maye is not at all like Jones. I don’t trust him but he’s who I’d draft. Caleb is short, Daniels I think has a weak looking arm and the age thing. I was just sloppy in connecting my thoughts to specific players
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,092
Relative to Fields - he had a legit WR1 this season in DJ Moore. PFF graded out Moore as the 10th best WR this past season. No one is arguing that Moore is among the elite WRs in the league today, but he is superb.
DJ Moore is the most underrated receiver in the entire NFL, IMO. He has had 1,000 yards in 4 of the last 5 seasons, with this cast of characters throwing to him: Fields, Darnold, Kyle Allen and Bridgewater. He was a rookie when Cam Newton was having his final decent season, and didn't start until week 7. In year 2, Newton got benched/hurt for Kyle Allen and it became the CMC/Moore show with Kyle Allen at QB (and Greg Olson was a shell of himself and was sent packing after that season). Then in year 3, on his 3rd head coach in 3 seasons and 2nd OC (after they finally dumped Norv Turner), they brought in Bridgewater, and CMC got hurt and only played 3 games. He had so much gravity that Robbie Chosen, who I'm sure 90% of NFL fans don't even remember is the artist formerly known as Robbie Anderson, went for 95 catches, 1,096 yards and 3tds.


And then he went to Chicago, puts up his best season ever this year for 96-1364-8, and he helps turn Cole Kmet into a weapon because Moore again creates so much gravity that Fields had Kmet running free all over the place.

I fucking love DJ Moore, and if Caleb Williams turns out to be the real deal in Chicago, folks may finally start realizing that he's better than a top 10 receiver, I think he's good enough to be top 5 in this league.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,092
if folks aren't sold on any of the top 3 QB's in this draft, then I just don't know what college QB's folks could ever be sold on. It really doesn't get much better than this class when it comes to QB prospects very often, and certainly won't be anywhere near this next season or likely, for a while.

Now, all 3-4-5-6 QB's in the top of this draft could be busts, but as far as prospects go, if people aren't excited about them, I just don't know how anyone would get excited about any QB prospect.
 

67YAZ

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2000
8,834
DJ Moore is the most underrated receiver in the entire NFL, IMO. He has had 1,000 yards in 4 of the last 5 seasons, with this cast of characters throwing to him: Fields, Darnold, Kyle Allen and Bridgewater. He was a rookie when Cam Newton was having his final decent season, and didn't start until week 7. In year 2, Newton got benched/hurt for Kyle Allen and it became the CMC/White show with Kyle Allen at QB (and Greg Olson was a shell of himself and was sent packing after that season). Then in year 3, on his 3rd head coach in 3 seasons and 2nd OC (after they finally dumped Norv Turner), they brought in Bridgewater, and CMC got hurt and only played 3 games. He had so much gravity that Robbie Chosen, who I'm sure 90% of NFL fans don't even remember is the artist formerly known as Robbie Anderson, went for 95 catches, 1,096 yards and 3tds.


And then he went to Chicago, puts up his best season ever this year for 96-1364-8, and he helps turn Cole Kmet into a weapon because Moore again creates so much gravity that Fields had Kmet running free all over the place.

I fucking love DJ Moore, and if Caleb Williams turns out to be the real deal in Chicago, folks may finally start realizing that he's better than a top 10 receiver, I think he's good enough to be top 5 in this league.
No one is Some people are arguing that Moore is among the elite WRs in the league today.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
if folks aren't sold on any of the top 3 QB's in this draft, then I just don't know what college QB's folks could ever be sold on. It really doesn't get much better than this class when it comes to QB prospects very often, and certainly won't be anywhere near this next season or likely, for a while.

Now, all 3-4-5-6 QB's in the top of this draft could be busts, but as far as prospects go, if people aren't excited about them, I just don't know how anyone would get excited about any QB prospect.
yeah that's part of it to me, okay I guess I could see the Patriots being really down on one for some reason we can't see, but generally.... Caleb probably goes after Lawrence in 2021..MAYBE after Burrow in 2020 (Not sure given 2 huge years in college to Burrow's 1, age, etc.), other than that you're probably going back to Luck in 2012 before you hit another QB he isn't considered a better prospect than. In that same stretch the guys maybe Daniels and Maye are behind are...
2013- nobody
2014- nobody
2015- maybe Jameis, but maybe not.
2016- Maybe Goff
2017- nobody
2018- Baker?
2019- Kyler
2020- Burrow (maybe Tua?)
2021- Lawrence
2022- nobody
2023- probably nobody

Now no guarantee they work out, etc. etc. but this is generally seen as the best QB class in a long time. Some people might have been way higher on someone in that stretch, others low on one of the guys this year and so on some individual boards it might vary, but overall consensus I think the odds you get a shot at a better thought of prospect than the guy at #3 this year in the draft is low.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,092
I'm admittedly one of the biggest wide receiver humpers on this board, but taking MHJ at #3 would be insane to me. The NFL is riddled with guys at the top of the wide receiver list with players taken late in round 1 or in round 2 or even later. MHJ is, without a doubt, the best WR prospect in my opinion since Fitz, but what did Fitz ever win alone?

Meanwhile:

DJ Moore: 24th overall
Tyreek: 165th overall
Jefferson: 22nd overall
AJ Brown: 51st overall
St. Brown: 111th overall
Keenan Allen: 76th overall
Nacua: 177th overall
Nico Collins: 86th overall
Aiyuk: 25th overall
Ceedee Lamb: 17th overall
Diggs: 146th overall
Pittman: 34th overall
Adams: 53rd overall
Metcalf: 64th overall
Hopkins: 27th overall



Now, you can use a top 10 pick on a receiver and hit on a Chase or a Davonta Smith or a Waddle, but there are always diamonds at that position later on. The problem is the Patriots staff over the last decade+ has failed to identify them. And the upgrade from a guy like one of the ones above to a guy like MHJ isn't a difference between a championship contender or not unless you already have a QB.

That said, Odunze/Nabors, etc. will all be off the board, but if the Pats like someone still sitting there around 25 at WR, that's where I'd trade up after getting my QB at #3 and go after the WR they want. It leaves holes at OL, but IMO, those holes can be patched later in the draft and in FA with the money they have. And having better skill position players and a real QB will make the offensive line look slightly better by itself as teams can't load up..
 
Last edited:

ObstructedView

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
3,283
Maine
It really seems like much of this discussion comes back to the question of how close the Pats are to competing in the AFC. A lot of pundits seem to take as a given that NE is at least a couple years away, but with a strong defense in place I think a couple key additions on offense could really move the needle. And while the competition in the conference is clearly stiff with Mahomes, Allen, Lamar and Burrow, we've seen how quickly fortunes can change due to injury and other factors - so I wouldn't necessarily concede the field to those guys.

This is all relevant to the draft pick debate since it could determine whether one prefers to roll the dice on a top QB or stockpile picks and fill as many different slots as possible. That said, I wonder if there could be a different thread focused on the underlying question: How close are the Pats to being a true contender?
 
Oct 12, 2023
726
maybe. I'd say it's really just QB though, because the other way is he has Trent Williams' career. I think OT is the 2nd or 3rd most impactful position in football, definitely behind QB, arguably behind edge. The problem as always is.... if you don't have good QB play you're likely going to be bad no matter what.

Edit- if you look at the 49ers, they're really the only recent team that has had success with an approach other than "have a top early drafted QB" and their team is built around.... a top drafted LT and a top drafted Edge. They then added a top RB, some solid late 1st early 2nd WRs, etc. But the core of that team is the O-line and passrush.
Of course I wouldn't take Alt at 3, you need a QB and if not go to 6, hope he's there. If he's not you can always trade back again and get Fashanu or Fuaga.
Williams was highly drafted, and also was 32 years old when acquired on the cheap via trade coming off a serious injury

Not disputing that SF’s OL play is crucial to their success but Williams didn’t sniff a Super Bowl when he was on a team with mediocre (or bad) QB play.

the problem with the “San Francisco model” - other than it’s failed to actually win a Super Bowl - is that their roster building has been full of very difficult to replicate moves. Getting players of McCaffrey and Williams’ talent in trade, finding a good QB in the 7th, finding an elite TE in the 5th, withstand a horrendous and expensive trade for a dud QB etc

Lynch is a good GM but I don’t think what he’s done is sustainable, much like John Schneider couldn’t replicate his legion of boom success when he couldn’t find All Pro DB’s on day 3 consistently, just Bill Belichick couldn’t consistently draft elite DL on day 1 after his run of Seymour/Warren/Wilfork

The narrative of “just load up on talent” is always misguided because, while hitting on a franchise QB requires a huge amount of luck, hitting on enough talented pieces to compensate for a mediocre/bad QB takes just as much if not more luck. Most draft picks don’t pan out and most veteran acquisitions don’t live up to their acquisition cost (see Jawaan Taylor). The only thing that can consistently keep you competitive is a top tier QB and can help cover up for years when the GM just doesn’t hit.
 

Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,518
Williams was highly drafted, and also was 32 years old when acquired on the cheap via trade coming off a serious injury

Not disputing that SF’s OL play is crucial to their success but Williams didn’t sniff a Super Bowl when he was on a team with mediocre (or bad) QB play.

the problem with the “San Francisco model” - other than it’s failed to actually win a Super Bowl - is that their roster building has been full of very difficult to replicate moves. Getting players of McCaffrey and Williams’ talent in trade, finding a good QB in the 7th, finding an elite TE in the 5th, withstand a horrendous and expensive trade for a dud QB etc

Lynch is a good GM but I don’t think what he’s done is sustainable, much like John Schneider couldn’t replicate his legion of boom success when he couldn’t find All Pro DB’s on day 3 consistently, just Bill Belichick couldn’t consistently draft elite DL on day 1 after his run of Seymour/Warren/Wilfork

The narrative of “just load up on talent” is always misguided because, while hitting on a franchise QB requires a huge amount of luck, hitting on enough talented pieces to compensate for a mediocre/bad QB takes just as much if not more luck. Most draft picks don’t pan out and most veteran acquisitions don’t live up to their acquisition cost (see Jawaan Taylor). The only thing that can consistently keep you competitive is a top tier QB and can help cover up for years when the GM just doesn’t hit.
I agree. The SF comparisons are also misguided because those guys actually tried to go the route of ponying up for an elite QB, first with Jimmy G, who was, at one point, the highest paid QB in the league, and then for Lance. They didn't bypass an elite QB to pick an OT, DL, or WR. They picked BPA when they had high picks, and, as you say, lucked into some competent QB play with Purdy (assisted by the game's preeminent offensive mind). That's not a model that can be replicated.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,783
if folks aren't sold on any of the top 3 QB's in this draft, then I just don't know what college QB's folks could ever be sold on. It really doesn't get much better than this class when it comes to QB prospects very often, and certainly won't be anywhere near this next season or likely, for a while.

Now, all 3-4-5-6 QB's in the top of this draft could be busts, but as far as prospects go, if people aren't excited about them, I just don't know how anyone would get excited about any QB prospect.
I think this is a really good post. We have no idea which guys will actually become really good NFL quarterbacks. So many variables. But in the top 4 guys (I'll include McCarthy), we've got:

Williams - Absolutely freak physical and arm talent, can do anything you need him to do, in or outside the pocket.

Maye - 6'4" stud with a cannon who can make all the throws, and oh yeah, he's a ridiculously good athlete as well, and at his size too! Also is just 21 years old.

Daniels - Great athlete who throws absolute dimes down the field.

McCarthy - Just won the national title, has good size (6'3"), can really run, has a good arm and can make all the throws. He's also just 21 years old, so lots of room to grow.

All of these guys are better prospects than Mac Jones was. They all have humongous ceilings in the NFL. Now the odds of them reaching that ceiling are not great, but the ceilings are there. How we wouldn't look at this group and be excited about them - just as the Patriots have a desperate need for a franchise QB, no less - I don't know.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,820
Melrose, MA
I wouldn't do this if a QB I wanted is there at 3, but otherwise I think it would be a good deal.

View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1760737223606194483?s=20

Keagan Stiefel: Daniel Jeremiah was just asked about the Patriots (No. 3) and Giants (No 6) possibly swapping first-round picks so New York could grab a QB. He talked to people around the league and believes it would cost NYG three second-round picks.

Taylor Kyles: So #39, #47, and a future 2nd? Unless they love Jayden Daniels or Drake Maye is there, I’d pull the trigger
 

Justthetippett

New Member
Aug 9, 2015
2,518
I wouldn't do this if a QB I wanted is there at 3, but otherwise I think it would be a good deal.

View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1760737223606194483?s=20

Keagan Stiefel: Daniel Jeremiah was just asked about the Patriots (No. 3) and Giants (No 6) possibly swapping first-round picks so New York could grab a QB. He talked to people around the league and believes it would cost NYG three second-round picks.

Taylor Kyles: So #39, #47, and a future 2nd? Unless they love Jayden Daniels or Drake Maye is there, I’d pull the trigger
I think you have to hold out for a R1 pick from someone to entertain moving back, even if within the top 10. That becomes a potentially very valuable asset for next year. But this could also be the trauma of BBs R2 picks talking.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,783
I wouldn't do this if a QB I wanted is there at 3, but otherwise I think it would be a good deal.

View: https://twitter.com/tkyles39/status/1760737223606194483?s=20

Keagan Stiefel: Daniel Jeremiah was just asked about the Patriots (No. 3) and Giants (No 6) possibly swapping first-round picks so New York could grab a QB. He talked to people around the league and believes it would cost NYG three second-round picks.

Taylor Kyles: So #39, #47, and a future 2nd? Unless they love Jayden Daniels or Drake Maye is there, I’d pull the trigger
That would give New England: #6, #35, #39, #47, #67 in the first three rounds. Based this mock drafts, they could reasonably expect to get these five guys:

#6 - QB McCarthy, Michigan
#35 - WR Mitchell, Texas
#39 - OT Morgan, Arizona
#47 - OT Mims, Georgia
#67 - WR Wilson, Michigan

Two tackles to shore up the OL. Two quality WRs - who play different positions. And a QB who wouldn't be my favorite one to pick, but one that actually does have significant upside as he gets older (just 21).

I still just want Maye or Daniels at #3, but this would be a helluva draft.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,092
That would give New England: #6, #35, #39, #47, #67 in the first three rounds. Based this mock drafts, they could reasonably expect to get these five guys:

#6 - QB McCarthy, Michigan
#35 - WR Mitchell, Texas
#39 - OT Morgan, Arizona
#47 - OT Mims, Georgia
#67 - WR Wilson, Michigan

Two tackles to shore up the OL. Two quality WRs - who play different positions. And a QB who wouldn't be my favorite one to pick, but one that actually does have significant upside as he gets older (just 21).

I still just want Maye or Daniels at #3, but this would be a helluva draft.
If they could pull that off, and then pull in Russell Wilson for basically no money, I'd seriously consider this (especially, IMO if Maye is off the board at #2). Not even sure I'd use the #6 on McCarthy in that situation.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
That would give New England: #6, #35, #39, #47, #67 in the first three rounds. Based this mock drafts, they could reasonably expect to get these five guys:

#6 - QB McCarthy, Michigan
#35 - WR Mitchell, Texas
#39 - OT Morgan, Arizona
#47 - OT Mims, Georgia
#67 - WR Wilson, Michigan

Two tackles to shore up the OL. Two quality WRs - who play different positions. And a QB who wouldn't be my favorite one to pick, but one that actually does have significant upside as he gets older (just 21).

I still just want Maye or Daniels at #3, but this would be a helluva draft.
Uh, what are we going off for those tackles because.... I haven't seen a single reputable mock that doesn't have Mims in the 1st, usually top 25 Morgan is in most too, but he at least might get to 35.

A more likely scenario if you traded down to 6 like that would be that you get Suamaitia maybe? Patrick Paul?


Edit- honestly I kind of hate the deal, you don't get a premium future pick, I guess maybe you get Alt? If you're doing it for McCarthy it makes no sense because if you have that high a grade on him.... someone else might too, then you have the Chargers (or honestly Cardinals too) sitting before you with a lot of incentive to slide to 8 or 11,12,13,14.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,783
Uh, what are we going off for those tackles because.... I haven't seen a single reputable mock that doesn't have Mims in the 1st, usually top 25 Morgan is in most too, but he at least might get to 35.
https://www.nfl.com/news/three-round-2024-nfl-mock-draft-patriots-deal-for-justin-fields-in-one-of-five-first-round-trades

Has Morgan going at #41 and Mims going at #51. Of course I have no idea how accurate it will be. It's just what I'm going off of.

A more likely scenario if you traded down to 6 like that would be that you get Suamaitia maybe? Patrick Paul?


Edit- honestly I kind of hate the deal, you don't get a premium future pick, I guess maybe you get Alt? If you're doing it for McCarthy it makes no sense because if you have that high a grade on him.... someone else might too, then you have the Chargers (or honestly Cardinals too) sitting before you with a lot of incentive to slide to 8 or 11,12,13,14.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
https://www.nfl.com/news/three-round-2024-nfl-mock-draft-patriots-deal-for-justin-fields-in-one-of-five-first-round-trades

Has Morgan going at #41 and Mims going at #51. Of course I have no idea how accurate it will be. It's just what I'm going off of.
Ah yeah, I wouldn't pay much attention to Chad Reuter, this is the Mock where he had the Patriots giving up like the equivalent of a 1st and 3rd for Justin Fields. I'd go off of here: https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/ you can get the consensus and click through to some of the drafts.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,783
Ah yeah, I wouldn't pay much attention to Chad Reuter, this is the Mock where he had the Patriots giving up like the equivalent of a 1st and 3rd for Justin Fields. I'd go off of here: https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/ you can get the consensus and click through to some of the drafts.
Ok let's run through that trade using this consensus link here: https://theathletic.com/5286354/2024/02/21/nfl-draft-2024-risers-fallers-consensus-board/

#6 - QB Daniels, LSU
#35 - OT Morgan, Arizona
#39 - WR Worthy, Texas
#47 - WR Polk, Washington
#67 - OG Haynes, Connecticut

I don't think Haynes can be a tackle, but he's a hell of a player and will do very well in the NFL. He'd simply be more help on the OL. I don't think Daniels would last til #6, but this consensus - which takes a bunch of various rankings into account - has Daniels at #10.
 

Curt S Loew

SoSH Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2001
6,773
Shantytown
What am I missing about McCarthy? His name keeps popping up in different threads in discussion with the Top 3.

Do people just need a new guy to talk about now that Daniels has risen up? Has he actually separated from the Penix/Nix level somehow?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,783
I did the site you recommended, @Cellar-Door and did a mock draft through them and made this trade with the Giants. Here's what I ended up with:

#6 - OT Alt, Notre Dame
#35 - QB McCarthy, Michigan (can't believe he lasted this long)
#39 - OT Paul, Houston
#47 - WR Legette, South Carolina
#67 - CB Sainristil, Michigan

Talk about beefing up the OL! Got McCarthy in the second (LOL) and added a legit WR. Also, always could use more CBs.

78487
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,941
What am I missing about McCarthy? His name keeps popping up in different threads in discussion with the Top 3.

Do people just need a new guy to talk about now that Daniels has risen up? Has he actually separated from the Penix/Nix level somehow?
Yes. Lot of talk from the draft people that he's in the conversation for teams in the top 10. Part of it is this is the time of year when guys really dig into the all-22s, and start getting into conversations with scouts. Also, a lot of people assumed McCarthy would go back so they didn't focus on him as much in early tape work as they did on the seniors. One thing also... McCarthy was a lot of people's QB3 pre-season. Daniels obviously had the huge year and showed such growth he passed him, but McCarthy faded into the background given his role and team meaning he didn't put up huge numbers.

I haven't seen anyone outside this board say he'll go top 3, but he's getting buzz at 8 or 11.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
The Athletic just did their mock wherein each of their staff writers for each team does the drafting (and trading) for the team they are attached to.

This mock went:
  1. Williams
  2. Maye
  3. Daniels
  4. Harrison
  5. Nabers
  6. Odunze
  7. Alt
  8. Fashanu
  9. McCarthy
  10. Fuaga
BUT! There was one trade, between the Pats and the Falcons (meaning ATL got Daniels and NE got Fashanu). Here is what Chad Graff had to say about his thinking:
Trade: Patriots send No. 68 to Bears for QB Justin Fields
This wasn’t the initial plan. I think the Patriots want a quarterback with the third pick, so I was ready to grab Daniels, which is why I rebuffed early offers from the Giants and Falcons, letting them know it would take a silly trade offer to acquire No. 3. And then, well, a silly offer arrived from the Falcons. So we changed course, netted the Falcons’ first-round pick next year plus a second-round pick this year, and then sent our third-round pick to the Bears for Fields. We used the No. 8 pick to grab Fashanu, who fills a massive need at offensive tackle and can help protect our new quarterback.

The Patriots don’t want this rebuild to last long, and Fields helps that. They can look at this like a two-year audition for Fields to show he’s the franchise quarterback, and if not, they can use that time to build up the roster elsewhere (there are plenty of holes) before drafting a rookie in a couple of years.
 
Apr 7, 2006
2,576
Patriots are (one hopes) not going to be anywhere near top 3 again anytime soon. There are THREE potential franchise QB in this draft. What the hell are we talking about here? Take Maye - who I imagine WILL be there b/c the D.C. Kingsburies are probably enamored with Daniels - and thank God the hand of fate dealt you this collection of cards.
 

leftfieldlegacy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2005
1,013
North Jersey
Uh, what are we going off for those tackles because.... I haven't seen a single reputable mock that doesn't have Mims in the 1st, usually top 25 Morgan is in most too, but he at least might get to 35.

A more likely scenario if you traded down to 6 like that would be that you get Suamaitia maybe? Patrick Paul?


Edit- honestly I kind of hate the deal, you don't get a premium future pick, I guess maybe you get Alt? If you're doing it for McCarthy it makes no sense because if you have that high a grade on him.... someone else might too, then you have the Chargers (or honestly Cardinals too) sitting before you with a lot of incentive to slide to 8 or 11,12,13,14.
Agree with the bolded. If the Patriots trade #3 then one of the Giants or Atlanta will jump to 4 or 5 and take QB4.
Just take the QB and don't look back.
Assuming no trades, I'd take the OT in the second and possibly go edge in round 3.
If they can't get a decent WR this year there will be plenty more to pick from next year no matter where the Patriots draft in the first round in 2025.
 
Oct 12, 2023
726
I'm admittedly one of the biggest wide receiver humpers on this board, but taking MHJ at #3 would be insane to me. The NFL is riddled with guys at the top of the wide receiver list with players taken late in round 1 or in round 2 or even later. MHJ is, without a doubt, the best WR prospect in my opinion since Fitz, but what did Fitz ever win alone?

Meanwhile:

DJ Moore: 24th overall
Tyreek: 165th overall
Jefferson: 22nd overall
AJ Brown: 51st overall
St. Brown: 111th overall
Keenan Allen: 76th overall
Nacua: 177th overall
Nico Collins: 86th overall
Aiyuk: 25th overall
Ceedee Lamb: 17th overall
Diggs: 146th overall
Pittman: 34th overall
Adams: 53rd overall
Metcalf: 64th overall
Hopkins: 27th overall



Now, you can use a top 10 pick on a receiver and hit on a Chase or a Davonta Smith or a Waddle, but there are always diamonds at that position later on. The problem is the Patriots staff over the last decade+ has failed to identify them. And the upgrade from a guy like one of the ones above to a guy like MHJ isn't a difference between a championship contender or not unless you already have a QB.

That said, Odunze/Nabors, etc. will all be off the board, but if the Pats like someone still sitting there around 25 at WR, that's where I'd trade up after getting my QB at #3 and go after the WR they want. It leaves holes at OL, but IMO, those holes can be patched later in the draft and in FA with the money they have. And having better skill position players and a real QB will make the offensive line look slightly better by itself as teams can't load up..
Your list is a little deceptive because while plenty of good WR come out of the later portions of the draft, there’s a huge amount of WR taken every year outside of round 1 so it’s just a numbers game. The chances of finding that one guy out of 30 per year is pretty minimal.

As it is, elite WR’s almost never win anything without high end QB play and even then they can be effectively gameplanned out by a worthy opponent (which you’re more often than not going to run into in the playoffs). Mike Evans, Antonio Brown and Tyreek Hill only won with Mahomes/Brady and every other elite WR other than Kupp (who had near elite Stafford) I can think of in the recent past has failed to carry a team to victory. Julio Jones probably came the closest but his presence alone couldn’t close out SB51.

Having an elite WR is great for elevating your offense but - as we saw for years with Hopkins, Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson etc or last year with Chase and Jefferson - that guy isn’t going to get you anywhere unless you have high end QB play.

There hasn’t been a single team to get to or win a Super Bowl on the basis of an elite WR carrying a mediocre QB.

Drafting Harrison, Odunze, Nabers in the first half of round 1 (at 3 or lower via trade) would be a massive waste of a pick.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,092
Your list is a little deceptive because while plenty of good WR come out of the later portions of the draft, there’s a huge amount of WR taken every year outside of round 1 so it’s just a numbers game. The chances of finding that one guy out of 30 per year is pretty minimal.

As it is, elite WR’s almost never win anything without high end QB play and even then they can be effectively gameplanned out by a worthy opponent (which you’re more often than not going to run into in the playoffs). Mike Evans, Antonio Brown and Tyreek Hill only won with Mahomes/Brady and every other elite WR other than Kupp (who had near elite Stafford) I can think of in the recent past has failed to carry a team to victory. Julio Jones probably came the closest but his presence alone couldn’t close out SB51.

Having an elite WR is great for elevating your offense but - as we saw for years with Hopkins, Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson etc or last year with Chase and Jefferson - that guy isn’t going to get you anywhere unless you have high end QB play.

There hasn’t been a single team to get to or win a Super Bowl on the basis of an elite WR carrying a mediocre QB.

Drafting Harrison, Odunze, Nabers in the first half of round 1 (at 3 or lower via trade) would be a massive waste of a pick.
You know you're making the same argument I did in the post you responded to? I mean, it's right there in my first two sentences when I wrote "What did Fitz ever win alone?" I was arguing against taking MHJ at #3.

That said, if the only measure of success is championship or bust, Mahomes and Brady are going to skew a lot of recent memories and skew how teams should be built. There is only one Brady and there is only one Mahomes. The model those franchises could use to build teams is so, so much different than what 30 other NFL teams can use because they don't have those guys under center (and even then, they had arguably the #1 and #2 tight ends of all time)

But nearly every team that ends up in the Elite 8 of the NFL playoffs in recent years have top wide receivers, and in the case of Buffalo, Miami, Philly, SF, Cincy, Detroit none of their QB's really made huge strides until they had elite receivers to work with. Dallas has had elite receivers almost throughout Dak's career Then you have young teams that have done very well in scouting and drafting receivers like Houston, and then there's Green Bay who just kept taking bites at the apple until they found guys that could play.

The Pats on the other hand, and teams like the Jags and Giants, have spent very little draft capital on receivers, and the results show. In the last 4 drafts, the Jaguars have taken 1 wide receiver before the 5th round (Shenault in the 2nd), the Giants have taken 4 WR's total in the last 7 drafts (Hyatt in the 3rd, Robinson in the 2nd and Toney in the 1st included). The Pats have taken 6 WR's in the last 7 drafts, and the only 2 they've taken before the 6th round were Thornton and Harry. To put this in perspective, the Packers knowing they were about to start a young QB, have taken 7 wide receivers in the last 3 drafts (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th rounder included) and they still managed to take tight ends in the 2nd and 3rd round last year. The Pats haven't even drafted a tight end since the disaster in 2020 with Asiasi/Keene.

Obviously, I know the caveats, teams have different needs, the Pats have tried to improve via trades and free agency, etc. But these positions matter, especially when you don't have Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes, and IMO, you have to take shots at them, regularly. The miss rate on every position, not just WR, is high, but it's even harder to hit when you don't try. There's a huge number of every position taken in every draft, it's not just a numbers game, it's a commitment to trying and scouting the right guys.
 

MikeM

Member
SoSH Member
May 27, 2010
3,132
Florida
The narrative of “just load up on talent” is always misguided because, while hitting on a franchise QB requires a huge amount of luck, hitting on enough talented pieces to compensate for a mediocre/bad QB takes just as much if not more luck.
I think that is too simplified a manner of looking at it. I mean is that statement even actually true if/when one actually acknowledges the potentially large amount of expected performance variance that can come out giving the same QB a different sets of surrounding support systems? For example who and what grade does Baker Mayfield get right now in that type of summary analysis? Do we put him down the the worst QB in the league we saw in Carolina last year year, or the Comeback Player of the Year version we saw in Tampa? What about SF Jimmy G vs Vegas Jimmy G? Does Brock Purdy still get a high consideration grade if you copy and paste him on to the Jets, or does the same fan summary after he busts out there peer over to what a full season of Sam Darnold's surface production looks like in SF and loudly proclaim "if only we could get ourselves a QB like that we'd be a 10 win team right now!".

I personally think the tape on Fields last year, especially post coming back from injury, looks pretty encouraging atm. At least if you are confident in your OC being able to work with that skillset. With a lot of the progress you wanted to see being there when there o-line wasn't imploding in around him. Enough so I have a hard time realistically seeing a pretty barren of supporting offensive talent NE coming out ahead here going the route of just adding Daniels by default over one that potentially adds both Fields and MHJ (or Alt). At least once past the sky is the limit fantasy sell period that typically dies off pretty quickly once the QB actually sees an NFL field.

Plus people are getting so hung up on the idea of potentially having to pay Fields without even talking about what that would actually look like right now. Could end up being a great buy low deal down the road.
 
Oct 12, 2023
726
I think that is too simplified a manner of looking at it. I mean is that statement even actually true if/when one actually acknowledges the potentially large amount of expected performance variance that can come out giving the same QB a different sets of surrounding support systems? For example who and what grade does Baker Mayfield get right now in that type of summary analysis? Do we put him down the the worst QB in the league we saw in Carolina last year year, or the Comeback Player of the Year version we saw in Tampa? What about SF Jimmy G vs Vegas Jimmy G? Does Brock Purdy still get a high consideration grade if you copy and paste him on to the Jets, or does the same fan summary after he busts out there peer over to what a full season of Sam Darnold's surface production looks like in SF and loudly proclaim "if only we could get ourselves a QB like that we'd be a 10 win team right now!".

I personally think the tape on Fields last year, especially post coming back from injury, looks pretty encouraging atm. At least if you are confident in your OC being able to work with that skillset. With a lot of the progress you wanted to see being there when there o-line wasn't imploding in around him. Enough so I have a hard time realistically seeing a pretty barren of supporting offensive talent NE coming out ahead here going the route of just adding Daniels by default over one that potentially adds both Fields and MHJ (or Alt). At least once past the sky is the limit fantasy sell period that typically dies off pretty quickly once the QB actually sees an NFL field.

Plus people are getting so hung up on the idea of potentially having to pay Fields without even talking about what that would actually look like right now. Could end up being a great buy low deal down the road.
It’s not really a buy low if the true opportunity cost is bypassing someone who could have a much higher upside, doesn’t have 3 years of (at best) below average/mediocre NFL experience, would be on a rookie contract instead of a 25M+ contract and whatever draft picks you have to trade for him (which diminishes the support system he would need to develop).

Your point with regard to Mayfield doesn’t really make sense to me either since Tampa Mayfield is pretty much in line with Cleveland (healthy) Mayfield and even Rams Mayfield. Jimmy G is old and injured.

If your argument is that bad players (or failed prospects) are victims of circumstance and a lack of support system and surrounding talent, you could extend that to every fringe player or flop across the league. Fields, with better tackles than the Pats have, with a good TE and elite WR was at best mediocre. Chances are the surrounding talent in New England is going to be worse than what he had last year in Chicago. Or at least similar (which wasn’t particularly good) and then you’re going to either pay him 25M or try to start over at the position with (hopefully) a worse draft pick and (almost certainly) a worse QB class

Whats the realistic best case scenario with Fields? He comes in, looks a little better than last year and you extend him for 30M a year? Is there any non “sky is the limit fantasy period” world where Fields shows enough in 2024 to warrant a hefty price beyond next year?

If Van Pelt and Harrison (or Alt) are the key support systems to extracting good play from QB’s, why not just sign Drew Lock or roll with Mac Jones (whose best games are far better than anything Fields has put up)? Why trade anything for Fields at all? Why not sign Sam Darnold or trade (less capital) for Jake Browning or Nick Mullens?
 
Oct 12, 2023
726
You know you're making the same argument I did in the post you responded to? I mean, it's right there in my first two sentences when I wrote "What did Fitz ever win alone?" I was arguing against taking MHJ at #3.
Beyond your first two sentences, you also said there’s “always diamonds” after providing a list of guys taken outside of the top part of the draft. My only point was that it’s statistically improbable for the Pats to actually find a stud WR beyond the early first because the number of those guys is tiny in relation to the number of guys actually selected.

Also not sure about crediting elite WR play to the development of Goff (who had Kupp) or Purdy (who has only ever had good receivers so who knows if he could have made “huge strides” without them) but to be clear I certainly agree with the assertion that an elite WR is a great QB enhancer and can elevate a QB’s play and that the Pats need to take a lot more bites at the proverbial apple.