Xander moves to Short. Middlebrooks takes over third. We add two outfielders. How does Holt get playing time going forward?
vadertime said:He becomes a Tony Phillips type player. An unofficial starter that doesn't have a position, but ends up in the lineup 5-6 days a week at a different position each time.
Then you try to sell high on him in the offseason and package him in one of the trades you plan on making.
There is already enough angst about "helping the Yankees" after the Drew trade.geoduck no quahog said:He gets ground up and liquefied into a potion capable of curing cancer.
...as well as herpes
So why even mention them?Plympton91 said:Holt's OPS is 170 points higher than Jackie Bradley's, and he seems quite competent in centerfield. The defensive statistics, for those who put stock in them, show him to be superlative in RF and a little above average in CF (but that sample size is immaterially small).
What you are actually saying here is the players who are hitting the best. The player on the redsox who is playing the best in the CF position is JBJ, and the next best isn't even close.Plympton91 said:I think there ought to at least be a healthy competition for CF innings the rest of the way and next year in spring training. I know a lot of people are in love with Bradley, but at some point you have to give the innings and at bats to the players who are playing the best.
Lowrielicious said:So why even mention them?
What you are actually saying here is the players who are hitting the best. The player on the redsox who is playing the best in the CF position is JBJ, and the next best isn't even close.
Plympton91 said:
Well, yes, last I checked you only get to have a DH for the pitcher, so hitting needs to come into the equation at some point. I'll stop now, as I realize that arguing on SOSH that Bradley shouldn't get to play CF as long he's, I guess, posting an OPS at least in the high 500s, is equivalent to trying to kick puppies and steal candy from babies.
Is it that hard to believe that some people would hate to see Holt struggle trying to play in CF full time as much as you hate to see Bradley struggle to hit?Plympton91 said:
Well, yes, last I checked you only get to have a DH for the pitcher, so hitting needs to come into the equation at some point. I'll stop now, as I realize that arguing on SOSH that Bradley shouldn't get to play CF as long he's, I guess, posting an OPS at least in the high 500s, is equivalent to trying to kick puppies and steal candy from babies.
Well, see, first you have to understand that if a starting pitcher strikes out about seven players in a game, that means pitching is worth about twice as much as the twenty outs the defense is responsible for making.DrewDawg said:
Do you feel that his defense isn't as good as many of us think or do you not think that his defense makes a difference to his overall value?
Well, no, but it's silly not to play him everyday in CF for the rest of the season.Plympton91 said:
Well, yes, last I checked you only get to have a DH for the pitcher, so hitting needs to come into the equation at some point. I'll stop now, as I realize that arguing on SOSH that Bradley shouldn't get to play CF as long he's, I guess, posting an OPS at least in the high 500s, is equivalent to trying to kick puppies and steal candy from babies.
I don't know if it'll happen this year, but ultimately JBJ is the leadoff hitter.LynnRice75 said:Everyone seems to feel Holt is destined for a super-sub. Not sure who hits lead-off when he's out of the lineup.
In my opinion, he has earned the right to be in the lineup every day. I hope they can find someone to sit often enough.
Listening to the Sox brass this afternoon, sounds like they want Middlebrooks and Cespedes and Bradley and Xander in everyday roles. We will see.
(Wonder how Nava finds time, too.)
I think you are entwining the Sox not having an adequate back-up for CF this past off-season, which I agree with you, with criticism of JBJ.Plympton91 said:
Well, yes, last I checked you only get to have a DH for the pitcher, so hitting needs to come into the equation at some point. I'll stop now, as I realize that arguing on SOSH that Bradley shouldn't get to play CF as long he's, I guess, posting an OPS at least in the high 500s, is equivalent to trying to kick puppies and steal candy from babies.
Lead off?! JBJ hasn't even proved himself worthy of a spot in the starting line up from an offensive perspective.Rasputin said:I don't know if it'll happen this year, but ultimately JBJ is the leadoff hitter.
Nava probably doesn't find much playing time. In 2015 he probably isn't on the roster.
LynnRice75 said:... Not sure who hits lead-off when he's out of the lineup.
twibnotes said:Lead off?! JBJ hasn't even proved himself worthy of a spot in the starting line up from an offensive perspective.
I agree. His July surge was fueled by an unsustainable BABIP (377), so I'm not as optimistic as others that he's coming around, but his glove is so good that you want to give him every chance to prove that he can hit well enough to stick. Having said that, if he doesn't manage at least a 650 OPS the rest of the way, the CF shouldn't simply be handed to JBJ next spring.Stitch01 said:Well, no, but it's silly not to play him everyday in CF for the rest of the season.
Rasputin said:I don't know if it'll happen this year, but ultimately JBJ is the leadoff hitter.
Rasputin said:
Which is why I said I didn't know that it was going to happen this year, but when you have a guy like Bradley whose primary offensive skill is the ability to get on base, where the hell else are you goin to put him? He's going to have an OBP better than .350, he has a little speed and not a ton of power. He's made to hit leadoff. He just has to make the transition.
Super Nomario said:
You seem awful sure of Bradley's development as a hitter. I don't think we should throw out his minor league numbers and rely entirely on his MLB performance to date, but it seems almost as extreme to throw out his MLB numbers and rely entirely on his minor league track record. He's at 455 MLB PAs; his minor league career was just 989, so about a third of his professional PAs are in the majors at this point.
FWIW, Oliver's 5-year projections had JBJ topping out at a .339 OBP even before this year.
I gotta admit, it is much easier to dismiss an argument you don't find convenient when you only address half of it. C'mon you can do better than this.kieckeredinthehead said:Well, see, first you have to understand that if a starting pitcher strikes out about seven players in a game, that means pitching is worth about twice as much as the twenty outs the defense is responsible for making.
I'm not sure he'll be ready for that at the beginning of next year, although my best guesstimate would put him in the lead-off spot around this time next year, he's already shown a nice delta between his OBP and his BA (a difference above .050 is very solid and he's around .070 right now, he has a good command of the strike zone already which bodes well for his development as a batter. His BA will climb as he grows and adjust to MLB, as I'm sure plympton91 knows.Rasputin said:I don't know if it'll happen this year, but ultimately JBJ is the leadoff hitter.
Nava probably doesn't find much playing time. In 2015 he probably isn't on the roster.
He should have never made the team in 2013 and that was a mistake that I and several others noted before the season ever started. Oliver includes that and it skews the data IMHO. He needed more time in the minors. I agree with Rasputin in that he will be a .350 OBP type of hitter, in fact I think he even has more upside at his peak. Baseball cube has his minor league career mark at 297/404/471. He'll start next season at only 24 years old (B-days late April) so there is still time for growth to his game. I suspect at his peak he'll be in the neighborhood of 280/365/415.Super Nomario said:
You seem awful sure of Bradley's development as a hitter. I don't think we should throw out his minor league numbers and rely entirely on his MLB performance to date, but it seems almost as extreme to throw out his MLB numbers and rely entirely on his minor league track record. He's at 455 MLB PAs; his minor league career was just 989, so about a third of his professional PAs are in the majors at this point.
FWIW, Oliver's 5-year projections had JBJ topping out at a .339 OBP even before this year.
Plympton91 said:Holt's OPS is 170 points higher than Jackie Bradley's, and he seems quite competent in centerfield. The defensive statistics, for those who put stock in them, show him to be superlative in RF and a little above average in CF (but that sample size is immaterially small).
I think there ought to at least be a healthy competition for CF innings the rest of the way and next year in spring training. I know a lot of people are in love with Bradley, but at some point you have to give the innings and at bats to the players who are playing the best.
Given his splits leading off an inning, I wonder if Farrell has given thought to have XB lead off when Holt isn't in the lineup?LynnRice75 said:Everyone seems to feel Holt is destined for a super-sub. Not sure who hits lead-off when he's out of the lineup.
In my opinion, he has earned the right to be in the lineup every day. I hope they can find someone to sit often enough.
Listening to the Sox brass this afternoon, sounds like they want Middlebrooks and Cespedes and Bradley and Xander in everyday roles. We will see.
(Wonder how Nava finds time, too.)
JakeRae said:Playing Holt less means more playing time for Middlebrooks, Bradley, and Betts, all of whom appear to be in greater need of MLB at bats than does Holt and all of whom have greater upside than Holt.
I MEAN RAISES THE QUESTIONvadertime said:....in 67AB. So it appears to be more than just a slump.
Yeah, we got a bombard that refuses to accept 460 a PA by Jackie Bradley as representative but at the same time keeps harping on same of less than 100 as defining who else should be playing. It's insane, not just for the posters here but for Red Sox management, when you look at how little actual performance, over relevant sample sizes, has mattered in determining playing time this year.JimBoSox9 said:I MEAN RAISES THE QUESTION
Right.....because baseball players never have a two-week abberation. Good god.vadertime said:Holt is quickly falling back to earth.
.194/.260/.254 since the all star break in 67AB. So it appears to be more than just a slump.
As I pointed out 2 posts earlier, the slump is largely BABIP driven. It's not anything to worry about but he also is not as good as he was playing prior to the All Star Break.vadertime said:Holt is quickly falling back to earth.
.194/.260/.254 since the all star break in 67AB. So it appears to be more than just a slump. Has the league figured him out? Is he struggling because its his first extended playing time since his time in AA in 2011?
seantoo said:...I see alot of people listing both Holt and Betts as super subs. How exactly doe 2 super subs work together in the same line-up? Chances are trades during the off-season will answer this question before it ever has to be answered or Betts may very well begin the year in Pawtucket not because he needs to but because of options and getting him regular at bats is a priority.
What are the needs of Miami? or Colorado to a lesser extent?
This would seem to be one of the major points to be clarified during this last part of the season.geoduck no quahog said:
As things are constructed today, the simplest answer is that the 2015 outfield is Craig (LF) / Victorino (CF) / Cespedes (RF) with JBJ as the 4th outfielder and Holt as the utility infielder/outfielder. Betts is either in Pawtucket or on the team as the 3rd super-bench guy. Ross being the 4th.
Holt and Betts would give the Sox a lot of flexibility (and some speed) off the bench and would slot in somewhere after the inevitable major injury to one of the starters. Promoting Betts in this scenario means Nava is gone, and I'm not sure I would choose JBJ over Nava.
This assumes Victorino will be able to cover CF post-surgery.
The only true lead off guy on the current team, other than Holt, projects to be Betts, but there's no place to play him in the obvious scenario.
JBJ is not currently a major league hitter, so projecting him as a lead-off guy is absurd. If you had to choose between JBJ or Betts as the 4th outfielder, what would your decision be?