Seriously? You do realize that his trading abilities got the Sox one of the very best starters in baseball and one of the very best closers in baseball, don't you?
Who's on Third? I don't know
- Thread starter Devizier
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If you read all of the Speier quote, he mentioned the Sale trade, and I agree that that trade and the Kimbrel trade are paying dividends. However, there is fairly general agreement that Dombrowski will loot the farm. When his trades don't work out, that hurts. I learned a lot from the Speier piece that I didn't know and thought that maybe there were others similarly underinformed.
As the Sox are only two games back with all the uncertainty at third, I would prefer that they play Marrero there as much as possible, until Devers is ready to make the move up.
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When anyone's trades don't work out, it hurts. Sometimes when trades aren't made, it hurts. If you'd rather have a stronger system and weaker Major League team, that's certainly your prerogative. But making a blanket statement denigrating DD's trading abilities ignores a whole lot of facts. It's also not what Speier was saying.
An argument can be made with crediting DD for Pomeranz atm too. Especially if, and in all fairness here, we are already going to put DD over the coals in regards to Thornburg. I mean Espinoza hasn't thrown a single pitch (due to "forearm tightness") this year either.
Speier's attempt to generalize Dubon/Coca/Pennington in as "3 holes in a big sum of 8" was quite the stretch too imo. I mean the one guy there (Dubon) who is probably even remotely close to having the chance at an MLB career would likely be projected as what....a backup MI here?
I was about to dismiss that comment, but then looked at his peripherals. His k/9 is up from 9.8 to 11.3. His bb/9 has gone down from 3.43 to 3 and his xFIP is down from 3.71 to 3.25.
The weakness has been his average of 5 innings per start straining the pen, but that seems to be improving with more use of his cutter. Hopefully he doesn't fatigue in the second half, but he's been decent.
And agree on Dubon and Coca. The power he showed last year hasn't come back yet. We could use him obviously, but he was blocked here. And playing well in the DSL
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Even then you can't really dismiss it that easily though.
Say you want about both guys but having to already shut your hard throwing 19yo with an arm issue that apparently is playing out to be a much bigger thing then they initially thought back in ST isn't raising any stock there, and at the end of the day the overall chance that DD turned a future nothing into a present something have gone up since that trade went down.
Say you want about both guys but having to already shut your hard throwing 19yo with an arm issue that apparently is playing out to be a much bigger thing then they initially thought back in ST isn't raising any stock there, and at the end of the day the overall chance that DD turned a future nothing into a present something have gone up since that trade went down.
Outside the box target: Zack Cozart. He's a terrific defensive SS who could probably replicate what Marrero is doing defensively, and is having a terrific offensive season. He's going into free agency and the Reds will surely move him in July
with Peraza ready to take over.
with Peraza ready to take over.
Agreed he might be interesting.
From what i can gather it sounded like there was enough surface interest on him post-release to land a league min contract though, so he's probably looking for better then that plus a more attractive rebound opportunity then what we have to offer atm (at least unless or until we remove the lingering Pablo contract from the equation. Can't see him walking into that if there are other options out there).
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There was also pretty strong agreement that the farm system he inherited was stocked with an unusually large number of highly-rated prospects, with positional logjams looming at OF and C, plus a healthy supply elsewhere. We can argue about what trades he should or should not have made, but he was dealing from a stronger hand of prospects than a good 27 other teams.
Lawrie is attractive to teams the same way Trevor Plouffe was this past off-season. He's not coming here for half a season. We obviously are going to have to live with Pablo a little longer. Rutledge certainly isn't the answer (and may be gone today or tomorrow when Pedey is activated.). Marrero is just hard to watch offensively. With that in mind, I believe have found an answer.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=callas001alb
Major league hitter. Going to put up a .650-.700 OPS, which would be a dream right now from Sandoval. Seems to be hot. Honestly, what do we have to lose?
The last time he was a major leaguer he put up a .594. He's two years older now. Why do you think this?
Is the Lawrie is a huge tool factor really worth an at-best marginal upgrade (stress on "at best")? No way for me that would work out well. There's a reason he's still a free agent. Plus he would need a ton of at bats to even get ready.
A recap of some of his incidents. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1654077-blue-jays-top-5-brett-lawrie-overreactions
A recap of some of his incidents. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1654077-blue-jays-top-5-brett-lawrie-overreactions
Jhonny Peralta just designated for assignment by Cards. http://www.rotoworld.com/player/mlb/3695/jhonny-peralta
If they can't trade him, they are likely to release him per article. Not sure of his defense (he's played a lot of SS), but if cheap, potential platoon partner or more? Hard to downgrade from what's in place.
If they can't trade him, they are likely to release him per article. Not sure of his defense (he's played a lot of SS), but if cheap, potential platoon partner or more? Hard to downgrade from what's in place.
Because Jhonny Peralta is at .462 and I can't think of a better idea? He's at .932 in the Atlantic League (I know, I know) and I think the offense is bad enough that we have to look at some other options. What have you got?
When you start considering Callaspo as an option, you may as well just go back to the Devers debate. Lawrie and Peralta at least provided something in 2016. For Callaspo, you have to go way back.
I wasn't commenting on Callaspo pro or con so much as expressing puzzlement at your projection for him.
As for what I've got, the answer is bupkis. Sometimes bad things happen, and there is nothing you can do about it. I'm not eager to give up even the modest likely price for Frazier or Moustakas, given how depleted the system is right now. Lawrie comes with baggage. Devers is almost certainly not ready. You might as well live, as Dorothy Parker would say.
It's low-risk at league minimum, but a move for Jhonny Peralta is a redux of last year's Aaron Hill gamble, which didn't really work. And with Peralta's sudden inability to hit lefties (76 wOBA+ since 2015), he's an even worse bet to pair with Pablo than Hill was.
More likely due to the aging curve, since in this article, Peralta was not directly tied to PEDs. His career high OPS+ of 137 was all the way back in 2005 when he was 23. Since then, his seasonal OPS+es have ranged from 84 (in 2012 - the year before the suspension) to 122 (in 2011). Since he was suspended in 2013, his OPS+es have gone from 117 to 103 to 91 to cratering out this year at 27 (in 58 PAs).
He may have done PEDs for all we know, but that looks like a standard aging curve (with injuries probably a part of it) and not a PED pattern where his career took off at one point and then crashed immediately after the suspension. Plus he missed a month with what was termed an upper respiratory infection (which admittedly could be BS) and was taking hardcore meds for it according to their GM, which could have had an effect. He had a 697 OPS in May after returning, so a lot of this is SSS too.
He might be worth taking a flyer on.
Bupkis is really my answer too. I'm not a major league GM. I don't even play one in TV. However, if I was, and I had an issue like our black hole at 3rd, I'd take a flyer on low-cost formerly reasonably skilled major league players who may get hot and give us a month of league-average play before fading into the ether. Callaspo would cost nothing, he's getting two hits a game right now in the Atlantic League, and if it's a bust, you cut his ass and go to the next option. What have you lost?
Sadly, the last time I felt this way was about Grady Sizemore, and we know how that turned out.
My point is, our current situation is not great. I agree that we shouldn't be spending our now limited resources on Moustakis or Frazier. So, Alberto Callaspo.
Callaspo might be a sneaky pick-up in a different market, but it may be a little too clever in one where Frazier, Moustakas, Donaldson, Plouffe, Peralta, Lowrie, Nunez, Reyes, Prado, Valbuena, Yunel Escobar, Eduardo Escobar, Freese, Beltre, Schimpf, and Coghlan are theoretically available and we're the only buyer (besides maybe the Yankees).
Agree with Chawson. Quite possible that supply will exceed demand. I don't think prying Plouffe away for example will take significant resources. Top 15 prospect at worst.
IDK, I'm curious to see just how much of an overall impact the new CBA rules have on trades going forward.
I mean if you are Chicago, and are both out of the race and have no interest in extending Frazier a QO (the market on his type isn't nearly what it used to be), do really really hold firm over potentially saving yourself $4-6m?
Moustakas is probably a little more valuable, assuming he puts up the career year he's on pace for, but even then worst case scenario your offer (plus the potential $3-4.5m they save by dumping him) essentially just needs to trump a 2nd and 5th round pick (but might end up a 3rd).
Nice comprehensive list. Panda has to go, defense is too important at 3B with 5 of our top 6 starting pitchers being LH.
Who do we get for a heavily to fully subsidized Panda + Noe Ramirez?
Do the Padres have any interest in trying to revive Panda's career and sending us recently demoted Schimpf for that package?
Even these players that people are throwing around as being cheap are going to require more than that pile of garbage you proposed(not trying to be a dick there but yikes that package sucks).
They need to give up some one that the trading partner can dream on, not Panda and a guy who has shown he can't stick in MLB.
I would think someone like Mata or Raudes would be the type that another team might be interested in.
Note: I am not saying those guys should be traded for a rental 3B, I just picked a couple of names that might make sense as opposed to Noe Ramirez.
I wonder if Rusney has any value, he's hitting pretty well has some HRs and is stealing some bases. I would think he might be interesting to someone with a not too outrageous subsidy, maybe $3-4M per year.
They need to give up some one that the trading partner can dream on, not Panda and a guy who has shown he can't stick in MLB.
I would think someone like Mata or Raudes would be the type that another team might be interested in.
Note: I am not saying those guys should be traded for a rental 3B, I just picked a couple of names that might make sense as opposed to Noe Ramirez.
I wonder if Rusney has any value, he's hitting pretty well has some HRs and is stealing some bases. I would think he might be interesting to someone with a not too outrageous subsidy, maybe $3-4M per year.
Wouldn't they wait for Devers to be ready before DFAing Sandoval? Josh Rutledge doesn't exactly fill anyone with confidence, and Deven Marrero can't see the Mendoza line without binoculars.
Or they trade/sign a stop gap. Or maybe Holt comes back.
But if this is what Sandoval actually is and is going to be, then even Rutledge and Marrero are better.
His argument was that the only thing he an sort of do OK (but not really) is hit RHP. He's worthless against LHP, can't run the bases nor play defense. He can't be on the bench because if you PH for him and he gets on, you need a PR.
He was just saying it's sunk cost at this point and we can probably get anyone to bat .220 vs RHP but they will be a viable defensive player and not a statue on the basepaths, He said from a roster flexibility perspective, he's pretty worthless.
Like I said, I'm not sure how plugged in he is to the Sox now, but he spent a lot of time on it
He was just saying it's sunk cost at this point and we can probably get anyone to bat .220 vs RHP but they will be a viable defensive player and not a statue on the basepaths, He said from a roster flexibility perspective, he's pretty worthless.
Like I said, I'm not sure how plugged in he is to the Sox now, but he spent a lot of time on it
In regards to Panda not being able to run the bases, remember opening day?
“Who said pandas couldn’t run?”
That’s what Red Sox hitting coach Chili Davis had to say, not at all surprised to see Pablo Sandoval’s newfound speed. Panda was clocked by the team at 3.9 seconds to first base after bunting in spring training.
Monday, Sandoval sparked the Red Sox’ 5-3 win over the Pittsburgh Pirates on Opening Day with his legs, running from home to first in 4.1 seconds to beat out an infield hit to shortstop that scored the Sox’ first run of the 2017 season and sent the Fenway Park crowd to its feet.
The fastest players in the game average about 3.8-3.9 seconds to first base. According to MLB Stat Cast, which released data on times to first base after the 2015 season, Billy Burns led the majors two years ago by averaging 3.85 seconds.
“That’s what I was doing in the offseason, trying to get my agility back, my first step, all the quick feet I was working on,” Sandoval said. “I feel pretty good.”
Was that BS, or has Pablo slowed down?
“Who said pandas couldn’t run?”
That’s what Red Sox hitting coach Chili Davis had to say, not at all surprised to see Pablo Sandoval’s newfound speed. Panda was clocked by the team at 3.9 seconds to first base after bunting in spring training.
Monday, Sandoval sparked the Red Sox’ 5-3 win over the Pittsburgh Pirates on Opening Day with his legs, running from home to first in 4.1 seconds to beat out an infield hit to shortstop that scored the Sox’ first run of the 2017 season and sent the Fenway Park crowd to its feet.
The fastest players in the game average about 3.8-3.9 seconds to first base. According to MLB Stat Cast, which released data on times to first base after the 2015 season, Billy Burns led the majors two years ago by averaging 3.85 seconds.
“That’s what I was doing in the offseason, trying to get my agility back, my first step, all the quick feet I was working on,” Sandoval said. “I feel pretty good.”
Was that BS, or has Pablo slowed down?
Where does this idea come from? There are plenty of station-to-station baserunners on every team, the Sox not excepted.
I don't entirely understand how Fangraphs calculates BsR, but right now it lists Pedroia, Hanley, and Leon as the worst on the team, with Sandoval about even with Chris Young.
In any case, a trade or something would be nice, but in the meantime, a platoon of Sandoval (700 OPS against RHPs) and Rutledge (671 OPS) is already a step up from last year's second-half dreck of Shaw (619 OPS) and Hill (585 OPS).
Well, he was on the DL for 3 weeks with a knee injury, so that can't really be helpful in the baserunning department.
But overall, I agree with AB in DC. Station to station baserunners abound in baseball, even as pinch hitters. I don't think that's necessarily a deal breaker for Sandoval. I mean, can he really be that much worse on the bases than David Ortiz, particularly after he started having trouble with his achilles?
Comparing Sandoval to Ortiz is something like comparing a quarterback who can't run OR pass (or far exceed as a team leader) to Tom Brady.
Third base won't be a problem offensively if the rest of the guys are doing what they're supposed to be doing. It's defense, in my view, that's the real problem. I would not even think about trading Devers. I'd consider trading a top 15-20 prospect for someone only if that person is on a short contract and represents a pretty sure and significant upgrade at 3b.
Same here, and the guy I'm liking more and more is Lowrie. He's having arguably a career year, which can't be expected to last, given he's played exactly one full season in his career. But he's a switch hitter who should be at least competent at 3B, is familiar with Fenway, and he should not cost a ton to acquire. Lower acquisition cost than Frazier or Moose, I'm guessing.
I doubt it'd take even that, honestly. Feel like a Plouffe DFA might be coming. He's fresh off a 0-23 slump; Healy, Alonso, and Khris Davis have all emerged, and he has no versatility anymore.
Fwiw, there's about $3.18m left on his contract if he doesn't clear waivers.
[Edit: math]
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Yes, because I don't think his "career year" is going to cause a bidding war (for a variety of reasons, mostly because it's not THAT great a year). I therefore think his cost will be less than what other 3Bs will go for. If I'm wrong, and Oakland demands a top 6-8 prospect, I'd pass. As for Lowrie breaking, I don't expect it, but I'd factor it into what I'm paying for (and how I'd expect to use him).
I'm looking for an affordable upgrade, not the best possible talent acquisition regardless of price.
Since we're on the verge of really needing Devers and he would be another cost controlled guy for a few years, I wouldn't want to trade him unless there were another Chris Sale type on the block (Which there isn't) . We have a nice young core having growing pains. We expected more but it doesn't look good for this year. I'm not in favor of dealing for a stop gap at third.
While I agree with not trading Devers unless the Sale equivalent at 3B is on the other end, "it doesn't look good for this year" has them with the 3rd best record in the league. No one *knows* if Price and EdRod will combine to be better than Johnson and The Fodders going forward, but its a good bet.
Rusney Castillo mentioned above. Wasn't he an infielder in Cuba? Been a long, long time though. He's still playing CF for the PawSox, so until that changes I'd guess they aren't even pondering that move.
In the absence of even mediocre options, can we (here) kick the tires for a bit on Devers? There are two concerns in bringing him up:
1. He could be worse than the current options
2. The Sox could damage his development/psyche
For the first one, Devers is putting up a .307/.368/.540(!) line in AA. And as far as I can tell he is a workmanlike if unspectacular fielder. No guarantee, but that holds a promise of significant upgrade even if he knocks .200 off his OPS in the move from AA to MLB.
Now the second one is trickier. I definitely know there is a narrative of messing up a kid by bringing him up to early. Has that ever been objectively quantified? To what extent are we seeing an outcome (player can't hack it) and assigning a cause (up too early) vs. knowing that objectively? Maybe there has been work done around this that I don't know. If so, I'd love to hear about it.
edit: Just adding, I can't imagine burning an option is going to matter.
1. He could be worse than the current options
2. The Sox could damage his development/psyche
For the first one, Devers is putting up a .307/.368/.540(!) line in AA. And as far as I can tell he is a workmanlike if unspectacular fielder. No guarantee, but that holds a promise of significant upgrade even if he knocks .200 off his OPS in the move from AA to MLB.
Now the second one is trickier. I definitely know there is a narrative of messing up a kid by bringing him up to early. Has that ever been objectively quantified? To what extent are we seeing an outcome (player can't hack it) and assigning a cause (up too early) vs. knowing that objectively? Maybe there has been work done around this that I don't know. If so, I'd love to hear about it.
edit: Just adding, I can't imagine burning an option is going to matter.
I think the potential situation at third is a little more open then simply writing Devers down in stone as the heir apparent. Especially given some of questions surrounding his defense there.
The free agent market is fairly unpredictable lately when it comes to contract floors on non-elite guys. I wouldn't completely discount the possibility we grab another 3B this winter, and then shift Devers over to fill the hole at first. With Travis (who's lack of power potential isn't really the most ideal upside play/roster fit atm) ultimately being viewed more as depth/insurance, or maybe even a piece you flip to help fill another area of need.
The free agent market is fairly unpredictable lately when it comes to contract floors on non-elite guys. I wouldn't completely discount the possibility we grab another 3B this winter, and then shift Devers over to fill the hole at first. With Travis (who's lack of power potential isn't really the most ideal upside play/roster fit atm) ultimately being viewed more as depth/insurance, or maybe even a piece you flip to help fill another area of need.
He hasn't played third since 2015 and has played exclusively at second the past two seasons. With defense being a huge concern, I'm not sure the bolded is a given.
I just saw something on the web, this morning or perhaps yesterday...I can't recall where, that quoted an unnamed scout as saying Devers would end up being moved to first because he couldn't handle third well enough. Did anyone else see that?
Haven't seen anything recently. I know there were initially concerns, maybe just based on body type, but everything I've heard since he actually started playing says he's put the work in to be good. Keith Law fields about one Devers question a week in his chat and he's been positive about his defense.