I was watching that game with my girlfriend at the time. She had watched basically 10 games in her entire life and was baffled by the decision. She knew very little about baseball before we met, and was asking me why Pedro was still in. Through gritted teeth I told her, "I. Don't. Know."Sometimes a bad pitcher has a good game, so those seem somewhat defensible. The Little decision was obvious to anyone watching the game. Schiraldi is second worst for me.
Workman batting was totally inexplicable. They won the series so no one talks about it but that game had several bizarre decision if I recall correctly. Wasn’t Workman pulled like a batter into the next inning and then there was that ridiculous play with Middlebrooks?There was a lot of internet chatter back then about Williamson being an absolute stress case to the point that there were threads devoted to analyzing the new blister on his lip and whether it was related to stress or maybe herpes(I don’t ever want to hear post 04 players saying the media is too tough here).
if this thread merged into late inning managerial decisions with pitchers, may I suggest a discourse on Farrell leaving Workman in to hit in the World Series?
Someone here had to go to the ER because he punched a wall the night Gagne blew the game in Toronto in 07. I think it was @Smiling Joe HeskethEric Gagne in the 2007 ALCS, and for that matter any and all usage of Gagne in September and the playoffs. He was beyond toast at that point of his career. I remember screaming at the TV and hiding behind the couch when Tito brought him into the 10th? 11th? inning against the Indians.
I smashed my cell phone and punched two holes through drywall after Boone's HR. Fortunately missed the studs, or I would have certainly broken my hand. That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.Someone here had to go to the ER because he punched a wall the night Gagne blew the game in Toronto in 07.
My dad punched threw the drywall when the MFY tied it.I smashed my cell phone and punched two holes through drywall after Boone's HR. Fortunately missed the studs, or I would have certainly broken my hand. That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.
I was at a bar for that. Had to leave or I would've ended up killing this annoying fucking MFY fan* who was congratulating me in the 5th inning. Walked home and the first pitch I saw was Boone.My dad punched threw the drywall when the MFY tied it.
My college had suicide prevention information all over the place after 2003 ALCS Game 7.That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.
Dude's basically a Nazi. Really takes the shine off the heroism of G6 for me, but there's no changing any of it anyway.Nothing will beat the comeback from 0-3 down ...whatever, Schilling is a douche, but he was pretty damn heroic as an athlete, goddamn stapling his ankle tendon in place to pitch ... Games 4 and 5 were the most epic sporting events I've ever seen. Game 6 was remarkable in its own way. I'll take the '03 loss for the '04 miracle.
Yup, that was me. My wife still doesn’t know.Someone here had to go to the ER because he punched a wall the night Gagne blew the game in Toronto in 07. I think it was @Smiling Joe Hesketh
When Boone hit that homer, and the Marlins made it in, I knew they would beat the Yankees in the WS. Just somehow knew it and was so happy when they did. I can still see Josh Beckett jumping around.I smashed my cell phone and punched two holes through drywall after Boone's HR. Fortunately missed the studs, or I would have certainly broken my hand. That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.
Oh, I also punched a hole in drywall that night after Boone's homer. Thankfully the budding engineering students who I lived with who worked construction in the summer patched it the next day on my behalf.I smashed my cell phone and punched two holes through drywall after Boone's HR. Fortunately missed the studs, or I would have certainly broken my hand. That 2003/2004 stretch was insane. I could have been diagnaosed with PTSD based on the DSM-4 critera at the time.
Re Zimmer and Lee I agree- I posted this yesterday in the Sat. game threadI voted for a Grady … but there’s a case to be made for Zimmer’s Sprowl decision. Zimmer had Bill Lee cooling his heels in Zimmers’s doghouse. (Mind you he’d lost a bunch of games in a row before being taken out of the rotation.)
I remember it well and a I don’t think the Shiraldi/Stanley move was that egregious. McNamara’s real sins were committed earlier in the game in a whole series of stupid decisions that led to Buckner still being on the field.
No way to evaluate Galehouse other than through books.
Whats worse than that was Zimmer burned Lee in the second game of that series and Lee pitched the last 7 innings against the MFY and gave up 1 earned run. He couldn't have started the "Sprowl" game.
Fuck Zimmer
This does not help. Williamson had pitched clean innings in that series, in Yankee Stadium, in games 1 and 6. Williamson was on a tear, eight postseason appearances with 8IP, 3H, 1HR, 1R 3BB, 14K. I am getting angry all over again. This was a complete no brainer, and for Grady to have not made the change means he literally had no brain. Just a bunch of fucking cottage cheese in his skull or something.Yup. Off by an inning. So scales tip more against Grady.
But, right or wrong, I never felt Grady had full confidence in Williamson. After a crappy year (mostly with Cin) he had a good September but was still prone to giving up walks. The old Yankee Stadium was incredibly intimidating and I'm guessing that Grady was afraid of how he'd deal with the pressure -- while hoping that Pedro could deal with anything. I think we, as fans, tend to discount the "inside" information managers have about how a pitcher/player is on a particular day (showing nerves or missing the Kzone during bullpen warmups). Some of it may just be a manager's bias (see Don Zimmer hating Bill Lee or, going way back, Dick Williams not trusting Lee Stange, who led the Sox starters in 1967 in ERA, but Williams thought he "wasn't a winner," because of his 8-10 WL) I had heard that during game 7, Embree was stressing out in the pen and it was relayed to Grady. Could be BS. But I'd like to think that a managerh 's "hunch" is sometimes based on info of which we fans are not aware.
Sounds like your wife is more of a baseball fan than mine. My wife would have said "that pitcher" instead of "Pedro". Like one time she said she heard "that pitcher" is pitching in Oakland tomorrow night. "Why don't you take the boys to the game." We went. Easy win. Same thing with Clemens when we had him. We sat behind home plate, third row, and he pitched a CG 2 hit shutout. Balls popping the catcher's mitt were like rifle shots.5-5-5. I remember as the 7th inning ended in that game 7. I said to my wife, "Now they're going to take out Pedro and put in Mike Timlin." Then I went to the bathroom. When I came back my wife said "I thought you said they were going to take out Pedro."
I think McNamara's explanation was he was saving Clemens for a lead. Which is kinda dumb because they had the lead until the bottom of the 6th. Even after Hurst gave it up (he was gassed going on short rest), Clemens for the seventh and eighth to hold the tie and give the offense a chance would have made all the sense in the world. Instead he went to Schiraldi (speaking of gassed) who immediately gave up the HR to Knight. Then a parade of blech as the Mets kept scoring.I never understood why McNamara didn't bring Clemens on in the 7th inning of "86 Game 7 when the score was tied instead of going with Schiraldi, Stanley, Sambito and AL NIPPER. (Some writer called his start in Game 4 "the first formally scheduled forfeit in World Series history.") It was short rest to be sure, but there was a day of rest because the 7th game was postponed from Sunday to Monday. It was THE SEVENTH GAME
Did McNamara ever say why? Was it the blister? Was Clemens even in the bullpen? I think
He wrote about it in his autobiography in 1988. Said he was in the bullpen ready to go but never got the call.Sorry. I hit the wrong key. Did Clemens ever comment on the matter?
I know. Expecting McNamara to be a guy to break 100+ years of pitching tradition is crazy. Lollar, Stewart and Sambito collectively pitched 1/3 of an inning all month. Which, I mean, he had them pitching all year. Why all of a sudden did he get scared to use them. And I recognize that this trio wasn't the Nasty Boys circa 1990, but Stewart and Sambito at close to 100% must have been better than a cooked Schiraldi. Or Al Nipper.I don’t disagree with you but the game in 1986 was so different. Sox starters had 36 complete games that year! The only relievers with an ERA+ of 100 or better were Schiraldi (299) and Crawford (107). Schiraldi was the only reliever who struck out more than 7/9.
The Mets had a much better pen but only used five relievers in the series; and Doug Sisk only pitched 2/3 of an inning.
it’s funny to think about how important it was to get an opposing pitchers pitch count up, now that’s almost completely irrelevant.
Sox only carried 10 pitchers on the WS roster: Boyd, Clemens, Crawford, Hurst, Lollar, Nipper, Sambito, Schiraldi, Stanley, and Stewart). Lollar and Stewart never pitched, Sambito just 1/3 of an inning.
(It’s pretty wild to see that the Sox only had six relievers who made 10 or more appearances that whole season. And the farm system was fairly barren back then too).
1000% agree with you on McNamara's usage of players and his post-season management. However, that was a very very thin team without a ton of depth. The Sox don't win the division without Mac riding those guys hard all year. That said, they were on fire in September (11 game win streak, got the lead up to 10.5 with 15 to play) and clinched with a week left. Guys could and should have been given some time off heading into the ALCS. Other than Buckner getting a couple days off after the clinch (mostly because his ankles were shot), most guys kept right on starting and playing every day.I know. Expecting McNamara to be a guy to break 100+ years of pitching tradition is crazy. Lollar, Stewart and Sambito collectively pitched 1/3 of an inning all month. Which, I mean, he had them pitching all year. Why all of a sudden did he get scared to use them. And I recognize that this trio wasn't the Nasty Boys circa 1990, but Stewart and Sambito at close to 100% must have been better than a cooked Schiraldi. Or Al Nipper.
Whether it was his bench or his bullpen, McNamara had a really hard time keeping his players fresh. Baylor, Buckner, Armas and Rice were well north of 30-years-old and Mac had them all playing 150+ games (Armas actually played 121). Gedman caught 135 games.
They were pissed off at each other, weren't they, McNamara because Clemens came out of game six for what Mac called a "paper cut" type severity, and Clemens because Mac pooh-poohed the "injury". So, Mac cut off all our noses to spite our faces by not getting the big guy into game 7.He wrote about it in his autobiography in 1988. Said he was in the bullpen ready to go but never got the call.
Yeah. I think they continued to disagree right up until Mac died, each insisting that Clemens coming out of Game 6 was the other one's decision.They were pissed off at each other, weren't they, McNamara because Clemens came out of game six for what Mac called a "paper cut" type severity, and Clemens because Mac pooh-poohed the "injury". So, Mac cut off all our noses to spite our faces by not getting the big guy into game 7.
KojiI'm curious who the best Red Sox pitcher is since Pedro..... Jon Lester? Sale? Beckett?
Every single one of those 3 had some pretty down years or were injured during their Sox tenure
In terms of most talented/best stuff, it's Sale. Not really that close. 2.92 FIP/3.02 ERA/1.04 WHIP in a Red Sox uniform. The other guys can't really touch that.I'm curious who the best Red Sox pitcher is since Pedro..... Jon Lester? Sale? Beckett?
Every single one of those 3 had some pretty down years or were injured during their Sox tenure
He was pretty pissed that he got passed over for Hurst (which was probably the right call). Sunday's game got rained out, which is why Hurst got to go again. I thought that I read somewhere that he got hammered the night before and was in no condition to pitch in the game, which is why McNamara had to go to Nipper that night. TBH I don't think Boyd would have done much, the Mets slapped him around in Game 3.was Oil Can a consideration out of the pen in game 7. I have a vague memory of him supposed to be starting Game 7, then they got a rainout which gave Hurst an extra day, and Can was not at all happy about being passed over. Am I crazy or did he essentially make himself unavailable for Game 7?
I love Pedro, but Embree got Nick Johnston to hit into a DP in the 7th inning to preserve a 7-6 lead 1 day earlier.I remember an interview with Pedro maybe 5-10 years ago when he said that Embree couldn't get Nick Johnson out to save his soul and Pedro could. And did.
So at that point, sure, let him pitch to Jeter. Jeter hits a bullet double to right (which I think Nixon could have done a better job on, but, still, it was a rocket). So, get him out then. Not only that, but Bernie Williams at that point in his career, was clearly a worse hitter right handed and Shemp Sui was after him, another lefty.
McNamara claimed he was drunk and in no condition to pitch. Boyd admits that as soon as he found out he was being passed over, he left the park (or the team hotel) to score some crack. He also says he smoked crack every day of that season, including at the park on days he was pitching. He probably doesn't fare any better than Hurst did if he starts that game.was Oil Can a consideration out of the pen in game 7. I have a vague memory of him supposed to be starting Game 7, then they got a rainout which gave Hurst an extra day, and Can was not at all happy about being passed over. Am I crazy or did he essentially make himself unavailable for Game 7?
With a healthy Seaver, the Sox win the championship. I'm convinced of that. He not only starts World Series game 4 instead of Nipper, but he probably starts at least one game in the ALCS so Clemens, Hurst, and Boyd don't go on three days rest (Clemens twice, once while ill). Those guys on better/regular rest in the World Series might have yielded different/better results too.He was pretty pissed that he got passed over for Hurst (which was probably the right call). Sunday's game got rained out, which is why Hurst got to go again. I thought that I read somewhere that he got hammered the night before and was in no condition to pitch in the game, which is why McNamara had to go to Nipper that night. TBH I don't think Boyd would have done much, the Mets slapped him around in Game 3.
What I wonder is how Tom Seaver would have done in that Series. I bet he starts Game 4 instead of Nipper.
I haven't read that book since the 1980s, but I thought Clemens said the plan was for him to be the closer in Game 7 yet things never got to the closer stage.I think McNamara's explanation was he was saving Clemens for a lead. Which is kinda dumb because they had the lead until the bottom of the 6th. Even after Hurst gave it up (he was gassed going on short rest), Clemens for the seventh and eighth to hold the tie and give the offense a chance would have made all the sense in the world. Instead he went to Schiraldi (speaking of gassed) who immediately gave up the HR to Knight. Then a parade of blech as the Mets kept scoring.
He wrote about it in his autobiography in 1988. Said he was in the bullpen ready to go but never got the call.
It absolutely was that clear and is the worst coaching decision I have ever seen in any sport.John Henry's reaction was/is not the same as Theo Epstein's reaction. If Pedro had gotten out of the inning (instead of a Posada broken bat bloop that tied the game), Henry would have thought Grady to be a hero, while Theo would have considered Grady to be a bit lucky. Theo was able to use Henry's over-reaction as an excuse to fire Grady.
Do I think Pedro should have been left in? Not really. But it wasn't so clear cut, and hardly "The worst in-game decision."
Bill James ( in one of his abstracts) said Al Nipper was the worst pitcher to ever start a World Series gameI never understood why McNamara didn't bring Clemens on in the 7th inning of "86 Game 7 when the score was tied instead of going with Schiraldi, Stanley, Sambito and AL NIPPER. (Some writer called his start in Game 4 "the first formally scheduled forfeit in World Series history.") It was short rest to be sure, but there was a day of rest because the 7th game was postponed from Sunday to Monday. It was THE SEVENTH GAME
Did McNamara ever say why? Was it the blister? Was Clemens even in the bullpen? I think
I don't remember that. Just that he said he was in the pen and jumped every time the phone rang, but it was never for him. "Closer" wasn't the same back then as it is now.I haven't read that book since the 1980s, but I thought Clemens said the plan was for him to be the closer in Game 7 yet things never got to the closer stage.
Nipper was pretty lousy in 1986, but was pretty much a journeyman (lifetime ERA + of 94). I'd be surprised if he was the worst. He actually pitched pretty well in Game 4 (3 runs in 6 inning). I doubt Seaver would have been able to match Darling zero for zero in that game.Bill James ( in one of his abstracts) said Al Nipper was the worst pitcher to ever start a World Series game
This is brilliant and I'm so gullible I was believing it until the end!In 2003, my then-girlfriend was doing research on indigenous tribes in the Amazon rainforest. As the ALCS progressed, I became more and more insistent that I needed to watch the 7th game, so we returned by boat to Manaus and I spent several hours arranging a TV feed via a nearby business's satellite and the longest stretch of coax in South America.
My girlfriend was reluctant to interrupt her research, and ended up bringing several young mothers from the tribe to continue her interviews about their child rearing practices. To her annoyance, there was no door between her interview room and my TV watching room, and the women's gaze was constantly pulled in my direction by the noise and lights of the game.
When Pedro returned to the mound in the 8th, one of the woman motioned to my girlfriend that she had a question for me. Then, this woman, who had never watched TV, who had never seen a baseball game, and who had never seen any sport of any kind, asked me why "the tired man had to keep throwing."
That's how obvious it was.
Okay, none of that story is true, but I'm sticking with it.
How does that season and series shake out if the Sox - Mets never make the Ojeda - Schiraldi trade?Nipper was pretty lousy in 1986, but was pretty much a journeyman (lifetime ERA + of 94). I'd be surprised if he was the worst. He actually pitched pretty well in Game 4 (3 runs in 6 inning). I doubt Seaver would have been able to match Darling zero for zero in that game.
I just got Sidd Finch’d.In 2003, my then-girlfriend was doing research on indigenous tribes in the Amazon rainforest. As the ALCS progressed, I became more and more insistent that I needed to watch the 7th game, so we returned by boat to Manaus and I spent several hours arranging a TV feed via a nearby business's satellite and the longest stretch of coax in South America.
My girlfriend was reluctant to interrupt her research, and ended up bringing several young mothers from the tribe to continue her interviews about their child rearing practices. To her annoyance, there was no door between her interview room and my TV watching room, and the women's gaze was constantly pulled in my direction by the noise and lights of the game.
When Pedro returned to the mound in the 8th, one of the woman motioned to my girlfriend that she had a question for me. Then, this woman, who had never watched TV, who had never seen a baseball game, and who had never seen any sport of any kind, asked me why "the tired man had to keep throwing."
That's how obvious it was.
Okay, none of that story is true, but I'm sticking with it.