I know San Antonio really wants us to trade away Jaylen Brown and multiple first for KD though.
ROb is a hard no to me. I would consider Smart depending what else I include, that's the benefit of having White/Brogdon.My line in the sand is including Rob Williams along with Brown and Smart. When they say 1 rotation player added, they have to be talking about Rob. I'm not giving them all 3.
Dude. Jaylen+Smart is too much. RWill on top of that is crazy town.My line in the sand is including Rob Williams along with Brown and Smart. When they say 1 rotation player added, they have to be talking about Rob. I'm not giving them all 3.
If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.Too bad the Nets don't want just a pick package and the C's could move Al instead. It would offset a lot of the future downside.
They basically have to, nobody in the West can reasonably give them what they want other than maybe New Orleans.If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.
Anyways, I get the sense that the Nets don’t want to contribute to turning an EC team into a monster and are only willing to trade with Boston if they can get them to overpay.
Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.If the Nets just wanted a pick package then the Celtics most likely aren’t in the running. It’s the Nets insisting on getting all star talent back which is narrowing the pool and giving the Celtics an edge.
Anyways, I get the sense that the Nets don’t want to contribute to turning an EC team into a monster and are only willing to trade with Boston if they can get them to overpay.
Correct that anyone trading for Durant is unlikely to be giving up a valuable 1st round pick in the next year or two, but the Nets will want 1st rounders in 3-7 years, when Durant is no longer an all-NBA guy. In that regard, the Celtics aren't a great bet for the Nets - lots of people talk about how the Heat future picks have less value than most because the Heat never seem to bottom out, but the Celtics have been in the lottery just once in the last 15 years. The Celtics are a better bet than most to be above average or better, regardless of what current players remain on the roster.Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.
But even if that's the case, the Nets would probably pick an equal package of picks from a WC team. So yeah, the C's are at an advantage if the Nets want players.
If all the Nets wanted were picks the Celtics wouldn't have the best picks package to offer anyway.Too bad the Nets don't want just a pick package and the C's could move Al instead. It would offset a lot of the future downside.
Anyway the Nets could end up with Donovan Mitchell and the Jazz end up with all our picks and Al Horford? Probably not.
Meh.I know San Antonio really wants us to trade away Jaylen Brown and multiple first for KD though.
The Raptors have all their own picks, & their salary match player is Siakam, who is much better than Al, so we really can't compete on that front.Correct that anyone trading for Durant is unlikely to be giving up a valuable 1st round pick in the next year or two, but the Nets will want 1st rounders in 3-7 years, when Durant is no longer an all-NBA guy. In that regard, the Celtics aren't a great bet for the Nets - lots of people talk about how the Heat future picks have less value than most because the Heat never seem to bottom out, but the Celtics have been in the lottery just once in the last 15 years. The Celtics are a better bet than most to be above average or better, regardless of what current players remain on the roster.
What I mean is, there's a difference between trading Durant to an EC team and trading him to an EC team that is already a Vegas favorite. I bet the Nets are reluctant to do that unless they can take a couple pounds of flesh. They aren't exactly rebuilding.They basically have to, nobody in the West can reasonably give them what they want other than maybe New Orleans.
I think the simplest answer is... the Nets want to have Kevin Durant, he's a top 5 player in the league, and they don't have their own picks. They are setting a high bar so they can justify not making a trade, and hoping that once the season starts Durant changes his mind.
This.Meh.
2028 is a long way away. In fact, long enough that BOS could have KD for 3 years, trade him away in his last year AND TANK, and could reboot by 2028 and be back in the top 1/4 of the conference.
No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.Dude. Jaylen+Smart is too much. RWill on top of that is crazy town.
I can see this. I would probably see if I could keep Smart by adding another pick or swap to White, as I think Smart is enough better, and more importantly a lot more flexible on D.No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.
This is where I am although I’m not concerned about the picks in the late 20’s so if the Nets require 3 of them I’m ok with that. My issue is losing Smart who is a critical component of a Finals lineup. White is a luxury now that Brogdon is on board and def expendable……but I’m not on board with moving Smart.Then you have to toss in Smart, 3 1st's and another rotation guy....If the deal were Jaylen, 1st and White, I can be brought on board, but I don't see the Nets doing that deal either.
The Lowe Post was an excellent listen today as they walked through the Celtics roster pre and post a potential trade and the Celtics would be really thin if they give up two rotation guys in addition to JB. Zach was assuming Grant would be added to a JB/Marcus package and they projected a starting lineup of White-Tatum-Durant-Horford-Rob. The problem is that suddenly, you are really relying on Brogdan to be healthy all year and a big contribution from Gallo and PP to have a serviceable bench. That doesn't take into account that KD has his own health issues (has averaged 45 games played over past two years) and will need to be managed and Al's eventual decline. I came away wanting the Celts to stand pat assuming the initial offer of JB/White/picks doesn't get it done. Giving JB/Smart/Rob would having too meaningful an impact on our defense for my liking but I am generally risk averse.No it's not too much to me. Brown is the cost you have to give up for a guy like KD and w/r/t Smart they have Brogdon in the fold now to go with White. It's a gamble on Brogdon's health, but worrying about whether or not to keep Marcus Smart is not holding me back from getting a talent like Kevin Durant.
Tatum will very likely be supermax eligible, and guys rarely turn that down.So Durant would be with the C's until 2026.
Tatum has a player option after the 2025 season.
Also, the C's should have plenty of cap room to build around Tatum via FA after 25/26 if they plan correctly. I guess it's possible they wouldn't need picks if the C's win some rings with Durant and players really want to play with Tatum.
Tatum's decision to re up here after 24/25 could come down to how good Durant is.
Just decided to map this outAssuming that that the Celts stand pat with a Jaylen/White/Pick or 2 offer.
You dont make the trade and we keep what is a strong core with a GREAT bench.
We make the trade and we have a Very Good to great Starting 5 with an iffy bench.
A Pels package could include the 2024 Lakers and/or 2027 Milwaukee pick, both of those could be juicy to go along with Ingram.Who could offer a better pick package? Anyone trading for him is probably a very good team going for a title. The picks will not be good, or they will be very far out and up to chance.
But even if that's the case, the Nets would probably pick an equal package of picks from a WC team. So yeah, the C's are at an advantage if the Nets want players.
I’d rather have the superior starting 5 and an iffy bench than great depth and and a very good starting 5. You win with stars in the nba and having KD/Tatum trumps everyone else in the league IMO. Like you said, either choice gives you a good shot at a title. I just think with KD the half court offense gets an upgrade with his play making and scoring abilities.Assuming that that the Celts stand pat with a Jaylen/White/Pick or 2 offer.
This is really no hard fast lose. It just various forms of moving very luxurious Deck chairs.
You dont make the trade and we keep what is a strong core with a GREAT bench.
We make the trade and we have a Very Good to great Starting 5 with an iffy bench.
Both those iterations can win a championship. Its a maddening decision, but it maddening, because either is not a bad one.
Worse case....we dont make the Trade and Jaylen bolts after 2 more years. Wouldnt we be able to retool with Als money, Jaylens money and whatever the cap has gone up? We should probably be able to sign whoever is available around that time.....and they would probably want to come here under the assumption that that could be the piece that gets us over the hump....or come here to continue winning championships.
Or worse case we make the trade and Durant blows out in the next year or so. Thats probably the BIGGEST significantly more then 1% chance of danger I can see. Another achillies (knee/back/whatever 35yo) injury and we are screwed and headed for 3-6 seed land.
Best case we win championships with either guy (10-30% chance).
Honestly, I kind of want to see this happen just to see how Durant reacts.A Pels package could include the 2024 Lakers and/or 2027 Milwaukee pick, both of those could be juicy to go along with Ingram.
Not sure which package you are comfortable with but let’s say they trade Smart/JB/Grant for DurantI’d rather have the superior starting 5 and an iffy bench than great depth and and a very good starting 5. You win with stars in the nba and having KD/Tatum trumps everyone else in the league IMO. Like you said, either choice gives you a good shot at a title. I just think with KD the half court offense gets an upgrade with his play making and scoring abilities.
Zion's extension is also a designated rookie deal, and therefore he can't be traded to BKN unless Simmons is moved.Zion just extended and thus can't be traded until January, but I agree that's interesting. I don't think they are willing to bet against Zion hitting but I do wonder if that actually is a smart move for them---they would be a contender the next couple of years and avoid the risk (and admittedly alos the upside) of Zion.
* Being a little thin in August shouldn’t factor if it’s replaceable rotation pieces (I don’t feel Smart is easily replaceable but others such as White, Grant, & PP certainly are). In 2008 we were thin as well until the deadline brought Cassell and PJ, each of whom were critical to some big playoff wins.The Lowe Post was an excellent listen today as they walked through the Celtics roster pre and post a potential trade and the Celtics would be really thin if they give up two rotation guys in addition to JB. Zach was assuming Grant would be added to a JB/Marcus package and they projected a starting lineup of White-Tatum-Durant-Horford-Rob. The problem is that suddenly, you are really relying on Brogdan to be healthy all year and a big contribution from Gallo and PP to have a serviceable bench. That doesn't take into account that KD has his own health issues (has averaged 45 games played over past two years) and will need to be managed and Al's eventual decline. I came away wanting the Celts to stand pat assuming the initial offer of JB/White/picks doesn't get it done. Giving JB/Smart/Rob would having too meaningful an impact on our defense for my liking but I am generally risk averse.
The other point that was made was that making the trade now would also likely eliminate any opportunity to ADD a star to JT/JB down the line. Right now, they have great contracts and young players to potentially pull off such a deal should a star become available and a KD trade would dramatically reduce their future flexibility. They'd be all-in on a 2-3 year window with KD and JT and then would likely need a reboot.
I’m doing JB/Smart/picks. Not willing to give up a 3rd player. Would rather up the draft pick ante.Not sure which package you are comfortable with but let’s say they trade Smart/JB/Grant for Durant
That’s a great team fully healthy. However, 5 of the 8 players that you’re relying on have pretty major issues with health and/or age (KD, Horford, Rob, Brogdon, Gallinari). And the 8th man in this scenario is Peyton Pritchard…
There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.ROb is a hard no to me. I would consider Smart depending what else I include, that's the benefit of having White/Brogdon.
That's where I'm at too. Smart is not a deal breaker for me. My personal balance sheet on Smart during the finals had him doing more negative things than positive things.I’m doing JB/Smart/picks. Not willing to give up a 3rd player. Would rather up the draft pick ante.
Wouldn't Tatum be the second guard in a lineup featuring TL, Al, KD, and Brogdon?There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.
You really don’t want Tatum expending his energy chasing around smaller/quicker players the majority of the time. He’s a big wing, you’d rather he only takes the smaller guys on switches. If you’re trading for Durant and his rapidly declining D, you’re already making life on Tatum more difficult. But you’d a thousand times rather be starting Durant and Tatum in the front court than asking Durant to guard big wings and Jayson the smaller ones.Wouldn't Tatum be the second guard in a lineup featuring TL, Al, KD, and Brogdon?
You'd play super-big with Tatum at the 2 likely. In fact that's what I'd assume they do whether it's White or Smart going out.There is no way that I’m betting my title contender on a team starting White and Brogdon in the back court. That’s basically making Pritchard your first G off the bench behind one really injury prone guy. And it’s not like White’s been an ironman either (although he’s JoJo White in comparison to Brogdon). 30 year old KD might be able to carry Pritchard to a title, 34 year old KD doesn’t have a prayer in Passaic of doing it.
There is no indication that Durant's D is declining at all, nevermind rapidly, this is a weird false narrative that people on this board seem to be taking as fact, he is a solidly average defender, with the tools to do more. Honestly the case has been made, and it isn't a bad one, that Durant is a better defender than Jaylen. Not sure I totally buy it (offball yes, onball probably not) but it's a conversation that's reasonable, especially with Jaylen surrounded by 4 better defenders most of the time, while Durant is playing with basically all bad defenders.You really don’t want Tatum expending his energy chasing around smaller/quicker players the majority of the time. He’s a big wing, you’d rather he only takes the smaller guys on switches. If you’re trading for Durant and his rapidly declining D, you’re already making life on Tatum more difficult. But you’d a thousand times rather be starting Durant and Tatum in the front court than asking Durant to guard big wings and Jayson the smaller ones.
That’s a good answer.Just one of those fun timed coincidences, but Tatum is at a premiere for a KD produced movie right now.
View: https://twitter.com/BrianTRobb/status/1552083139635331073?s=20&t=TSYFCU8ckelwPGqXQLBXKg
That last line is also why I am very intrigued. Durant is lethal from the line and he gets calls. Combine him with Tatum and our late game woes likely go away.Purely anecdotal but I thought Durant brought it on D in the playoff series in pretty subpar circumstances, averaging 44 mpg carrying a massive offensive load with a lot of minutes going to guys like Curry, Dragic, and of course Kyrie who hadn’t a prayer of keeping up with the Celtics on D over 48 minutes.
Obviously has great length, moves well, savvy player and more likely to get a superstar whistle of course.
Imagine opposing defenses trying to figure out whom to defend between Durant and Tatum - including the personnel required to do so. Put your best defender on Durant and see what happens. Then consider the looks the rest of the lineup gets in that scenario. Its hard not to dream on how that might work.That last line is also why I am very intrigued. Durant is lethal from the line and he gets calls. Combine him with Tatum and our late game woes likely go away.
And then imagine trying to get looks on the other end against these two while a DPOY roams the backcourt and another DPOY-caliber big roams the frontcourt.Imagine opposing defenses trying to figure out whom to defend between Durant and Tatum - including the personnel required to do so. Put your best defender on Durant and see what happens. Then consider the looks the rest of the lineup gets in that scenario. Its hard not to dream on how that might look...
I think the guy coming back would probably be Seth Curry. Makes sense for both sides.If the Nets insist on Smart, any chance the compromise would be to get Royce O’Neal back? He’d be great bench wing for the Celtics, but if the Nets are trying to be competitive, they may not want to trade him (and just gave up a first to acquire him).
Someone in one of these threads wondered what Durant might look like in the later years of this contract. To me, at worst, Durant 2-3-4 years from now is a better version of Big Al. Tall enough to play the 5, but long enough, quick enough and savvy enough to be a switchable 4. Plus a far better shooter than Al ever dreamed of.Purely anecdotal but I thought Durant brought it on D in the playoff series in pretty subpar circumstances, averaging 44 mpg carrying a massive offensive load with a lot of minutes going to guys like Curry, Dragic, and of course Kyrie who hadn’t a prayer of keeping up with the Celtics on D over 48 minutes.
Obviously has great length, moves well, savvy player and more likely to get a superstar whistle of course.
Sounds like a former politician who used to say that "a lot of people are saying" stuff. Darko doesn't agree with what you're saying. Neither does Lebron. The former has Jaylen as better than Durant on defense (like . 7 to .2) and the latter, about the same for the last two years (JB: -.56 20/21, +.34 21/22 & KD -.11 20/21, +.43 21/22).There is no indication that Durant's D is declining at all, nevermind rapidly, this is a weird false narrative that people on this board seem to be taking as fact, he is a solidly average defender, with the tools to do more. Honestly the case has been made, and it isn't a bad one, that Durant is a better defender than Jaylen. Not sure I totally buy it (offball yes, onball probably not) but it's a conversation that's reasonable, especially with Jaylen surrounded by 4 better defenders most of the time, while Durant is playing with basically all bad defenders.
So really it's only DARKO (and really only half of DARKO), LEBRON has them similar, Raptor has Jaylen better last year, Durant better the year before. I'd also note that DARKO's Box DPM has them as basically the same on defense, so the on/off (and maybe the aging curve given DARKO is predictive no descriptive) is doing a lot of work in making Jaylen look better, and that's the part that is most effected by teammates.Sounds like a former politician who used to say that "a lot of people are saying" stuff. Darko doesn't agree with what you're saying. Neither does Lebron. The former has Jaylen as better than Durant on defense (like . 7 to .2) and the latter, about the same for the last two years (JB: -.56 20/21, +.34 21/22 & KD -.11 20/21, +.43 21/22).
While the argument about JB playing with better defenders is historically a compelling one, this isn't RPM that we're talking about (or Raptor, for that matter).
Some people have made the case that Durant is a better defender, but the numbers don't. Unless I'm reading this wrong, they both profile as average overall defenders. One ranks a little higher than the other on each.
edit: interesting thing about Lebron ratings, they typecast a "role" for a defender. Jaylen's has gone over the years from "Low activity" to "Point of attack" to "Chaser" to "Wing stopper". Kevin's has gone from "Low activity" to "Helper" (Lebron only goes back to 2014).
I agree with this.So really it's only DARKO (and really only half of DARKO), LEBRON has them similar, Raptor has Jaylen better last year, Durant better the year before. I'd also note that DARKO's Box DPM has them as basically the same on defense, so the on/off (and maybe the aging curve given DARKO is predictive no descriptive) is doing a lot of work in making Jaylen look better, and that's the part that is most effected by teammates.
I went with many people are saying, rather than look up all of them, but I think I remember... Kevin O'Connor, Zach Lowe, JJ Reddick, etc. Durant is at worst an equivalent defender to Jaylen as I noted, and given his situation that's impressive (Jaylen is a 2nd option and has great rim protection and help).
I would also say that opponent shooting favors Durant (he both has a better DFG%, and holds players further below average than Jaylen. Essentially the same PPP allowed on Iso, same defending the ballhandler in PnR, off screens, Jaylen was a bit better in the post.
They grade out as essentially equivalent defenders, and in those cases I'm tempted to give it to the guy who plays with bad defenders over the one who plays with good ones.
Most importantly, I was responding to the assertion that Durant was in some steep decline on that end, which none of the number think is the case. I won't go out on some limb that Durant is clearly a better defender, my point was simply that he's not in decline, and he's not a downgrade from Brown at this point, they're stylistically a bit different, but overall very similar players on that end (and obviously Durant is a lot better on the other)
Brown/White/1-2 picks as the line to hold makes sense.He’s gone from being a very good defensive player to an averagish one. At 34 he’s not turning back the clock. Especially not with the mounting injuries. So, yeah, he’s a declining defender (see the conversations we’ve been having about LeBron for the last 3-4 years).
Brown too often loses focus in help defense, however he’s still a pretty good man up guy, which has its advantages. But, at the end of the day, it’s not really pertinent. By sending out your two healthy guards you’re asking Durant to defend big wings full time and Tatum the smaller/quicker guys, which is a suboptimal use of resources.
There aren’t going to be any offers out there that top Brown/White/pick(s) (thanks to Ben Simmons), so I’m hoping that Boston holds the line there. But honestly I expect the Nets to Kobe Durant and that this is all a moot point. There’s no way I stripmine the roster for the 34 year old to get the Nets to deal him. Let the Nets have their 6-8 seed spots for the next four years. Couldn’t happen to a nicer franchise.