How long will Chaim last?

Trapaholic · Jun 14, 2023

Overall, the minor league depth is trending in the right direction. It has become clear that the high-impact talent is in the low minors. You have the Romeros and the Bleis's of the world who are anywhere from 2-4 years away. At the AA and AAA level, there are some interesting players for sure, guys who are best served playing everyday at the minor league level and developing.

My gripe is with the Major League roster. My thought was that Bloom and Co would be able to pick up guys around the margins who are good pieces, much like 2021. I am referring to Kike, Renfroe, and Ottavino. Those guys meshed with the talent already on the roster, and it worked.

I thought the Bloom administration would be more creative when it came to finding competent players that could fill in for depth. More trades for useful veterans, finding guys that are one adjustment away from breaking out, or maximizing the talent of guys who are already on the roster.

Chaim is in charge of the whole thing, not just the minors. I do not want to fire him tomorrow. There are simply not enough every-day Major League players on the roster. The seat is starting to get warm, and we know this ownership group has shown that they will make sweeping changes if they do not like the direction of the baseball operation.

OurF'ingCity · Jun 14, 2023

Trapaholic said:
I thought the Bloom administration would be more creative when it came to finding competent players that could fill in for depth. More trades for useful veterans, finding guys that are one adjustment away from breaking out, or maximizing the talent of guys who are already on the roster.

Duvall and Turner seem to fit the bill for what you're looking for, no? I will readily grant you that Bloom has not been as good on the pitching side - the Kluber signing was a complete whiff and there were better options out there.

astrozombie · Jun 14, 2023

tbb345 said:
If you’ve read through all of these threads and posts and you seriously think there is no reasonable way to critique Bloom then your head is buried in the sand and nothing can change your mind.
There have been plenty of reasonable critiques of Bloom, you’re just not willing to entertain anything negative about him

This.

8slim · Jun 14, 2023

teddywingman said:
One of the things that's bugging me right now is how great Wacha and Eovaldi are pitching while we're stuck watching Kluber. I know there's contract considerations and money reasons, but come on. That's some bad evaluation.

And that shit head pitching in Worcester. Why?

Not signing guys who are doing well is not Bloom’s fault. How could he have known, right? Also, not signing guys who are doing poorly shows his brilliance. He knew, obviously.

This seems to be how it works.

Trapaholic · Jun 14, 2023

OurF'ingCity said:
Duvall and Turner seem to fit the bill for what you're looking for, no? I will readily grant you that Bloom has not been as good on the pitching side - the Kluber signing was a complete whiff and there were better options out there.

You are correct. I liked those signings at the time, and I still do. I mean Duvall was OPSing about 1.500 when he was injured. My thought was guys like that would be "nice to haves" that would complement a core of solid everyday regulars. As it stands, those guys are essentially 2 of the most well-rounded players on the team. I would throw Refsnyder on that list, too.

These guys are all stop gaps. The major league roster will need refreshments, and I do not know what that will look like.

Big trade? Maybe. Recent history shows us that talented every day major leaguers will fetch an absolute haul. I am referencing the Juan Soto deal in which Washington got some top-tier talent, and San Diego would still need to sign Soto to a long term deal. A big trade like that may put the Red Sox farm system back at square one.

Big free agents? Another possibility, although this years' class of FA's is much different than last years.

In terms of offense and pitching, this Ohtani fella could do both. Problem solved

Sandy Leon Trotsky · Jun 14, 2023

moondog80 said:
Once again -- I've made my case. You may not agree with it, and that's fine, but I've made my argument.

What is your argument that Theo walked into a harder job? This will be the last time I ask, as to not dog down the thread.

EDIT -- My point that 2003 was easier is not a knock on Theo. He took advantage of every edge he had and knocked it out of the park. A+ work.

I don't think it's even a debate--- maybe in the minors but that's it. Theo walked in to a situation with new ownership that wanted to end an 86 year drought (okay, 85 at the time they took over) and were willing to spend almost as much as the MFY's those years.
Bloom walked into a team almost the complete opposite of that.

OurF'ingCity · Jun 14, 2023

Trapaholic said:
You are correct. I liked those signings at the time, and I still do. I mean Duvall was OPSing about 1.500 when he was injured. My thought was guys like that would be "nice to haves" that would complement a core of solid everyday regulars. As it stands, those guys are essentially 2 of the most well-rounded players on the team. I would throw Refsnyder on that list, too.

These guys are all stop gaps. The major league roster will need refreshments, and I do not know what that will look like.

Big trade? Maybe. Recent history shows us that unless you're trading a Juan Soto type of player, you will not get prospects who are breaking the door down.
Big free agents? Another possibility, although this years' class of FA's is much different than last years.

In terms of offense and pitching, this Ohtani fella could do both

I would call Devers, Story, Yoshida, and Verdugo (if they extend him) a pretty solid core of everyday regulars on offense. You can win a championship with that core if you add a few young guys that perform well (which hopefully they have in the form of Casas, if he improves, and Mayer/Yorke/Rafaella if they are not traded although more realistic to expect them to contribute significantly in 2025 at the earliest) and a few short-term veterans in the Duvall/Turner/Victorino/Moreland/Napoli variety.

As noted, the pitching is a different story and needs much more work. It's absolutely fair to criticize Bloom on that front - he's had some hits (Whitlock, Paxton, the Chris Martin signing looks like good value, etc.) but also a bunch of misses (Kluber, the Barnes extension) and just more generally has seemed to treat the rotation as largely plug-and-play where you can insert guys like Kutter Crawford when what they really need is one or two more solid, dependable starters.

moondog80 · Jun 14, 2023

The Eovladi situation has been well documented. His highest offer was from the Red Sox. But, he turned them down, the Sox moved onto Jansen and Yoshi, and by the time Eovaldi came back to them the original offer wasn't in the budget.

Sandy Leon Trotsky · Jun 14, 2023

tbb345 said:
If you’ve read through all of these threads and posts and you seriously think there is no reasonable way to critique Bloom then your head is buried in the sand and nothing can change your mind.
There have been plenty of reasonable critiques of Bloom, you’re just not willing to entertain anything negative about him

There's plenty. But barely any consider that he's running clearly under a budget set by Henry. AND a directive to sustain long term success. That means he's trying to get though some tougher years to bring that long term success. Not many here are arguing under that premise. The issue half of the bad arguments here is with Henry. Not Bloom. Start a FIRE HENRY!!!! thread.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jun 14, 2023

moondog80 said:
The Eovladi situation has been well documented. His highest offer was from the Red Sox. But, he turned them down, the Sox moved onto Jansen and Yoshi, and by the time Eovaldi came back to them the original offer wasn't in the budget.

Didn’t they close the door on Eovaldi once they signed Kluber? They signed within days of each other (seems unclear as to which deal was agreed to first), and Kluber completed the rotation. I get that saying they used the money on Jansen and Yoshi makes the Sox look better, but neither of those guys are SP. I suspect it was more a combination of Paxton accepting his option, and then signing Kluber.

moondog80 · Jun 14, 2023

Petagine in a Bottle said:
Didn’t they close the door on Eovaldi once they signed Kluber? They signed within days of each other (seems unclear as to which deal was agreed to first), and Kluber completed the rotation. I get that saying they used the money on Jansen and Yoshi makes the Sox look better, but neither of those guys are SP. I suspect it was more a combination of Paxton accepting his option, and then signing Kluber.

I think it's more a matter of once Jansen was signed, Kluber was still in the budget and Eovaldi was not.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jun 14, 2023

Got it, I could see that.

YTF · Jun 14, 2023

teddywingman said:
One of the things that's bugging me right now is how great Wacha and Eovaldi are pitching while we're stuck watching Kluber. I know there's contract considerations and money reasons, but come on. That's some bad evaluation.

And that shit head pitching in Worcester. Why?

If Wacha and Eovaldi are here it likely alters the path of Whitlock/Houck/Bello who the team seemed intent on starting this season. With Sale, Paxton and Pivetta already committed to was there actually a spot for these guys? Yes I know, but Kluber... Kluber was a 1 year commitment at $10M and likely looked at to start the season and be a 1 year insurance policy for injury and filler should one of the young guys falter.

nighthob · Jun 14, 2023

8slim said:
Projecting ahead to 2026 and beyond seems wild to me though. Most of these vaunted prospects aren’t gonna be good enough. That’s not an indictment of Bloom, it’s just how baseball works. I mean, 4 years ago people figured Houck would be a top flight starter right now. Stuff happens.

I keep hammering away on this, but a lot of the anti-Bloom crowd just ignores it (and for the record, I'm an agnostic, I'm willing to acknowledge his successes as well as criticize the failures). Boston absolutely doesn't need for their prospects to be all stars. They need their prospects to be average (or better) MLB players. That includes Mayer (who struggles with offspeed stuff and might not be a franchise player, but if he's abover average it's good enough). Every league average guy you can plug in frees up financial resources for free agent signings. And, hopefully, productive ones. If they're able to bring in Yamamoto due to payroll flexibility suddenly the rest of the staff looks a lot better.

The idea behind the prospect machine isn't a stream of all stars, it's a stream of cost controlled talent. Put another way, Chris Sale level mistakes hurt a lot less when you have a bunch of cheaper players around them.

Benj4ever · Jun 14, 2023

8slim said:
I respect optimism, I really do. But the Sox are 2 games under .500, 14 1/2 games out of first and 5 1/2 out of the third wild card. The Sox kinda stink. Blaming the media seems weird.

I'm not saying I'm optimistic about this year. The writer was using the tired, "Bloom has no plan" line and cherry-picking stuff like "they've sold out only four games this year," there's too much "roster churning," as well as forgetting that the Sox came within two games of the World Series in 2021.

I find this type of lazy argumentation, along with its thinly veiled hatred of Bloom (because he doesn't follow the Padres and Phillies' flawed models) disgusting. The Red Sox have a plan. It's building from within, and it's patient, a quality altogether lacking in Boston sports writers.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jun 14, 2023

Dombrowski got canned less than a year after the team won 119 games. How long does Bloom get by virtue of being 2 wins from winning the AL pennant? Why does 2021 get more weight than the more recent ‘22-23? I mean, it’s part of his body of work but it’s not the only thing, I don’t understand why it’s referenced anytime anyone suggests that the last 1.5 years haven’t been great.

BaseballJones · Jun 14, 2023

soxhop411 said:
I bet my life savings that if the Mets and Sox had their offseason’s swapped and had the same record the mets have today. Pete would be complaining about reckless spending (just like the reporters in NY are doing right now)

Oh, 100%. Same with Adam Jones on WEEI and many others - including folks here no doubt.

You spend and it doesn't work, and it's reckless spending and getting locked into bad contracts.

You don't spend and try to go the young talent route and it doesn't work, and you're cheapskates and don't want to build a winner, but would rather just focus on the Premier League.

Whatever route you go, if it doesn't work, there will be criticism.

John Marzano Olympic Hero · Jun 14, 2023

Benj4ever said:
I find this type of lazy argumentation, along with its thinly veiled hatred of Bloom (because he doesn't follow the Padres and Phillies' flawed models) disgusting. The Red Sox have a plan. It's building from within, and it's patient, a quality altogether lacking in Boston sports writers.

Sigh. Nobody hates Chaim Bloom. Least of all Peter Abraham.

You sound like a child when you write things like that. You can disagree with how someone is running you rfavorite baseball team without hating them.

chrisfont9 · Jun 14, 2023

Petagine in a Bottle said:
Dombrowski got canned less than a year after the team won 119 games. How long does Bloom get by virtue of being 2 wins from winning the AL pennant? Why does 2021 get more weight than the more recent ‘22-23? I mean, it’s part of his body of work but it’s not the only thing, I don’t understand why it’s referenced anytime anyone suggests that the last 1.5 years haven’t been great.

Just on their face the two situations are not at all comparable -- setting aside whatever else could have been going on behind the scenes. Dombro was brought in to go for it at the major league level, right away. Bloom's task is very different and not at all on the same time scale, by any rational understanding of it. That also explains why one is judged solely by the major league results and the other isn't -- yet.

I'd also note, as to why the job is different -- consider that when Dombro was hired, only one player in history had ever topped $30m per season, Clayton Kershaw, who got his bag right before the 2015 season. Now? There are 16 players north of that, the top being $43m to Verlander and Scherzer (tied). The sheer cost of relying on top-level free agents has gone up a lot in a short time. Price and Sale (sheesh) are the only two Sox to make the list, both Dombro signings, both cautionary tales. The rest of the top salaried free agents list is a mixed bag. But it's not a shock that the GM job changed dramatically in that time.

BaseballJones · Jun 14, 2023

Petagine in a Bottle said:
Dombrowski got canned less than a year after the team won 119 games. How long does Bloom get by virtue of being 2 wins from winning the AL pennant? Why does 2021 get more weight than the more recent ‘22-23? I mean, it’s part of his body of work but it’s not the only thing, I don’t understand why it’s referenced anytime anyone suggests that the last 1.5 years haven’t been great.

I am willing to bet (not that I have any inside knowledge of this) that Bloom is operating under the directives of ownership. They are all in agreement that the way forward is being patient and building up the farm system so there's a long term stream of young talent coming on board. That stuff TAKES TIME. There's no easy way to do it. And meanwhile, they're trying to not go bonkers with the payroll and they want to see if they can build a winner by piecemeal as they wait for the young talent to start to come online. Sometimes it works (2021). Sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure they see the risks with this approach.

I'd wager that ownership is fine with this approach and isn't looking to fire Bloom for doing what they probably want him to do.

But I could be wrong, obviously.

simplicio · Jun 14, 2023

teddywingman said:
One of the things that's bugging me right now is how great Wacha and Eovaldi are pitching while we're stuck watching Kluber. I know there's contract considerations and money reasons, but come on. That's some bad evaluation.

And that shit head pitching in Worcester. Why?

Chris Sale IP, 2017-2022: 567
Nathan Eovaldi: 518
Michael Wacha: 662
Corey Kluber: 699

I mean, sure it bugs me that right now those guys are pitching great for other teams, but did you really want them on multi-year deals through their mid-30s running concurrently with Sale's contract? Would it be better evaluation to presume they'll both be healthier over the length of their contracts than they have been over the last 5 years?

Dermody though, I agree with you 100%. Seems like it could have been exceptionally easy to a) never call him up or b) if you did, just release him after the DFA.

Auger34 · Jun 14, 2023

Benj4ever said:
I find this type of lazy argumentation, along with its thinly veiled hatred of Bloom (because he doesn't follow the Padres and Phillies' flawed models) disgusting. The Red Sox have a plan. It's building from within, and it's patient, a quality altogether lacking in Boston sports writers.

You really think that Pete Abraham, or anyone criticizing Chaim Bloom, legitimately hate him? That’s a pretty gigantic stretch

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I am willing to bet (not that I have any inside knowledge of this) that Bloom is operating under the directives of ownership. They are all in agreement that the way forward is being patient and building up the farm system so there's a long term stream of young talent coming on board. That stuff TAKES TIME. There's no easy way to do it. And meanwhile, they're trying to not go bonkers with the payroll and they want to see if they can build a winner by piecemeal as they wait for the young talent to start to come online. Sometimes it works (2021). Sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure they see the risks with this approach.

I'd wager that ownership is fine with this approach and isn't looking to fire Bloom for doing what they probably want him to do.

But I could be wrong, obviously.

Building up the farm can’t be a 6-7 year process though. At some point, MLB results have to matter. I think we all understand what they’re doing. What differs is the tolerance for crap seasons, of which we’re now likely to be in our 3rd in 4 years.

I’m not overly encouraged by where things sits but I also acknowledge that things can change quickly. The lack of pitching talent that is even semi-close to the majors tempers my excitement. But if Bello, Whitlock, and Houck emerge as consistent options, that buys you more development time.

Offensively, they’re in better shape prospect wise with Mayer, Yorke, and Rafaela all semi-close. Story remains the key piece in the short-term. Devers needs more help in the HR department.

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

tbb345 said:
You really think that Pete Abraham, or anyone criticizing Chaim Bloom, legitimately hate him? That’s a pretty gigantic stretch

It’s quite amusing to me seeing people who accuse others in this thread of being too emotional in their evaluation of Bloom post stuff like that.

Bongorific · Jun 14, 2023

simplicio said:
Chris Sale IP, 2017-2022: 567
Nathan Eovaldi: 518
Michael Wacha: 662
Corey Kluber: 699

I mean, sure it bugs me that right now those guys are pitching great for other teams, but did you really want them on multi-year deals through their mid-30s running concurrently with Sale's contract? Would it be better evaluation to presume they'll both be healthier over the length of their contracts than they have been over the last 5 years?

Dermody though, I agree with you 100%. Seems like it could have been exceptionally easy to a) never call him up or b) if you did, just release him after the DFA.

Why are you going back 6 years?
Kluber last 4 years:
35
1
80
164

simplicio · Jun 14, 2023

Cause that's the length of Sale's tenure in Boston, and I don't think anyone here is clamoring for more of the same.

Sandy Leon Trotsky · Jun 14, 2023

BaseballJones said:
I am willing to bet (not that I have any inside knowledge of this) that Bloom is operating under the directives of ownership. They are all in agreement that the way forward is being patient and building up the farm system so there's a long term stream of young talent coming on board. That stuff TAKES TIME. There's no easy way to do it. And meanwhile, they're trying to not go bonkers with the payroll and they want to see if they can build a winner by piecemeal as they wait for the young talent to start to come online. Sometimes it works (2021). Sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure they see the risks with this approach.

I'd wager that ownership is fine with this approach and isn't looking to fire Bloom for doing what they probably want him to do.

But I could be wrong, obviously.

This without a doubt 100% accurate or else Bloom would have been canned. Clearly Henry saw the future of the team after Sale as being incredibly expensive, not set for sustainable success and likely past its prime if he kept along the same line of success of ‘18.
Someone want to start a FIRE HENRY!!!! thread? I’m supportive of that (yes, I know!!!). I think he should consider selling and finding an ownership that had the same drive that he did in the first 15 years of ownership. Bloom is hired to do what he’s doing and hoping some of the short term fixes work (didn’t in ‘22, did in ‘22…. Not looking good for ‘23) but even with all that said, ‘24 must show significant improvement (87-90 wins and stepping up from Casas, etc…) and ‘25 is a team that HAS to make some damage in the playoffs or else I think Bloom is gone….and I suspect another DD will be in his place since I suspect between ‘23-‘24 off-season, the purse strings will be open.

JCizzle · Jun 14, 2023

Sandy Leon Trotsky said:
There's plenty. But barely any consider that he's running clearly under a budget set by Henry. AND a directive to sustain long term success. That means he's trying to get though some tougher years to bring that long term success. Not many here are arguing under that premise. The issue half of the bad arguments here is with Henry. Not Bloom. Start a FIRE HENRY!!!! thread.

He was hired from the Rays. I imagine a big selling point from Bloom himself was that he'd "do more with less" - as the Rays do- while he builds up the system. It's probably THE reason why he's in his role and getting paid big money. Even Henry on a budget should be enough relative to the Tampa organization he's from.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jun 14, 2023

Bongorific said:
Why are you going back 6 years?
Kluber last 4 years:
35
1
80
164

Kluber is also 6 years older than Wacha, and 4 years older than Eovaldi.

simplicio · Jun 14, 2023

Yet he still pitched more innings than either last year, and was available on a one year deal.

chrisfont9 · Jun 14, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
Building up the farm can’t be a 6-7 year process though. At some point, MLB results have to matter. I think we all understand what they’re doing. What differs is the tolerance for crap seasons, of which we’re now likely to be in our 3rd in 4 years.

I’m not overly encouraged by where things sits but I also acknowledge that things can change quickly. The lack of pitching talent that is even semi-close to the majors tempers my excitement. But if Bello, Whitlock, and Houck emerge as consistent options, that buys you more development time.

Offensively, they’re in better shape prospect wise with Mayer, Yorke, and Rafaela all semi-close. Story remains the key piece in the short-term. Devers needs more help in the HR department.

Why can't it?? International free agents rarely reach the majors in that 6-7 year time, so what are you judging the guy on? Drafts take 3-6 years before you really know much, apart from older, more polished top-end guys. I guess there's whether the GM in question has also been tasked with restocking it through poaching other teams' guys, which Bloom has done some of, yielding Whitlock, Winckowski, Wong, Hamilton, Binelas, Valdez and probably some others I'm not recalling. Anyway, if you don't like the major league results that come from this process, then give your GM a bigger FA budget and tell him not to focus too much on restocking the farm system.

cannonball 1729 · Jun 14, 2023

Sandy Leon Trotsky said:
There's plenty. But barely any consider that he's running clearly under a budget set by Henry. AND a directive to sustain long term success. That means he's trying to get though some tougher years to bring that long term success. Not many here are arguing under that premise. The issue half of the bad arguments here is with Henry. Not Bloom. Start a FIRE HENRY!!!! thread.

I’m curious what this means. Every team operates under a budget set by ownership. Is Henry’s unusual for MLB or for Boston? Is it different now than in years past? I know Bloom was tasked with clearing out the potential salary cap hell that DD left him (which is why he traded Mookie)....but most of the big contracts or potential big contracts besides Sale and Devers (i.e. Price, JD, Eovaldi, Mookie, X, JBJ) are now off the books. Is there still some sort of new or unusual constraint that Bloom works under?

JCizzle said:
He was hired from the Rays. I imagine a big selling point from Bloom himself was that he'd "do more with less" - as the Rays do- while he builds up the system. It's probably THE reason why he's in his role and getting paid big money. Even Henry on a budget should be enough relative to the Tampa organization he's from.

I suppose this is possible. But 20 years ago when Henry offered to back up the Brinks' truck to pry Billy Beane from Oakland, I don't think he did it with the intent of making the Red Sox a small-budget team. Tampa Bay now, like Oakland then, has been at the forefront of a lot of the analytics innovations (e.g. the opener, the crazy overshift, the third-time-through-the-order penalty) that have since become commonplace in MLB, and it certainly makes sense that Henry would want to poach someone from that front office just as the Dodgers did with Andrew Friedman before him. I think I would need some convincing that the reason for Bloom's hire was budgetary and not analytics-based.

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

chrisfont9 said:
Why can't it?? International free agents rarely reach the majors in that 6-7 year time, so what are you judging the guy on? Drafts take 3-6 years before you really know much, apart from older, more polished top-end guys. I guess there's whether the GM in question has also been tasked with restocking it through poaching other teams' guys, which Bloom has done some of, yielding Whitlock, Winckowski, Wong, Hamilton, Binelas, Valdez and probably some others I'm not recalling. Anyway, if you don't like the major league results that come from this process, then give your GM a bigger FA budget and tell him not to focus too much on restocking the farm system.

I’m judging the guy on MLB results along with promise of the farm system. The former has been bad to very bad in 3 of 4 years. The latter is improved but is buoyed pretty significantly by Mayer. I certainly hope he is the real deal and that other guys emerge at higher levels.

As for money, Bloom signed Story for $140M last year, a guy with a known elbow concern. He signed Yoshida to another $90M. He spent another $50M on Jansen/Martin. Another $30M on short deals for Turner, Duvall, Kluber. It’s not like he hasn’t been able to spend money. He may some kind of directive from management. None of us know for sure.

But, end of the day, he is paid to build a winner at the MLB level and he hasn’t. Whether you’re satisfied with where we are or not likely is based on your evaluation of the farm and tolerance for lean years in the hope of better years down the road. I don’t have the tolerance to go 6 years of crap in the hope that some guys emerge in 2026-2027 or whatever.

astrozombie · Jun 14, 2023

Sandy Leon Trotsky said:
Someone want to start a FIRE HENRY!!!! thread? I’m supportive of that (yes, I know!!!). I think he should consider selling and finding an ownership that had the same drive that he did in the first 15 years of ownership. Bloom is hired to do what he’s doing and hoping some of the short term fixes work (didn’t in ‘22, did in ‘22…. Not looking good for ‘23) but even with all that said, ‘24 must show significant improvement (87-90 wins and stepping up from Casas, etc…) and ‘25 is a team that HAS to make some damage in the playoffs or else I think Bloom is gone….and I suspect another DD will be in his place since I suspect between ‘23-‘24 off-season, the purse strings will be open.

Setting aside for a second how futile that would be, any negative sentiment towards ownership would be met with the "look at the last 20 years! 4 WS! How could you criticize that!" crowd, who thinks ownership is generally immune from all future criticism because of that.

BaseballJones · Jun 14, 2023

cannonball 1729 said:
I suppose this is possible. But 20 years ago when Henry offered to back up the Brinks' truck to pry Billy Beane from Oakland, I don't think he did it with the intent of making the Red Sox a small-budget team. Tampa Bay now, like Oakland then, has been at the forefront of a lot of the analytics innovations (e.g. the opener, the crazy overshift, the third-time-through-the-order penalty) that have since become commonplace in MLB, and it certainly makes sense that Henry would want to poach someone from that front office just as the Dodgers did with Andrew Friedman before him. I think I would need some convincing that the reason for Bloom's hire was budgetary and not analytics-based.

They're clearly not a small budget team. Info from Spotrac:

2020: #4 in MLB
2021: #6 in MLB
2022: #6 in MLB
2023: #15 in MLB

Clearly they're trying to shed payroll now (I thought it was to get under the luxury tax, so they could avoid harsh penalties, then bump spending back up)

So once in the last four years have they been outside the top 6 in payroll. They're obviously not the BIGGEST spenders, but they're definitely not a small market team. I think the idea was: if Bloom (coming from the Tampa lineage) can do great things with a small budget, how great would he be with OUR budget?

8slim · Jun 14, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
I’m judging the guy on MLB results along with promise of the farm system. The former has been bad to very bad in 3 of 4 years. The latter is improved but is buoyed pretty significantly by Mayer. I certainly hope he is the real deal and that other guys emerge at higher levels.

As for money, Bloom signed Story for $140M last year, a guy with a known elbow concern. He signed Yoshida to another $90M. He spent another $50M on Jansen/Martin. Another $30M on short deals for Turner, Duvall, Kluber. It’s not like he hasn’t been able to spend money. He may some kind of directive from management. None of us know for sure.

But, end of the day, he is paid to build a winner at the MLB level and he hasn’t. Whether you’re satisfied with where we are or not likely is based on your evaluation of the farm and tolerance for lean years in the hope of better years down the road. I don’t have the tolerance to go 6 years of crap in the hope that some guys emerge in 2026-2027 or whatever.

Good post. There is absolutely no need for it to take SIX or SEVEN years for the Boston Red Sox to build a title contending team. None whatsoever. It’s preposterous on its face.

Rovin Romine · Jun 14, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
But, end of the day, he is paid to build a winner at the MLB level and he hasn’t. Whether you’re satisfied with where we are or not likely is based on your evaluation of the farm and tolerance for lean years in the hope of better years down the road. I don’t have the tolerance to go 6 years of crap in the hope that some guys emerge in 2026-2027 or whatever.

8slim said:
Good post. There is absolutely no need for it to take SIX or SEVEN years for the Boston Red Sox to build a title contending team. None whatsoever. It’s preposterous on its face.

2021 Boston Red Sox Statistics
Record: 92-70-0, Finished 2nd in AL_East (Schedule and Results)

Postseason:
Lost AL Championship Series (4-2) to Houston Astros
Won AL Division Series (3-1) over Tampa Bay Rays
Won AL Wild Card Game (1-0) over New York Yankees

Manager: Alex Cora (92-70)
President: Chaim Bloom (Chief Baseball Officer)

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

Rovin Romine said:
2021 Boston Red Sox Statistics
Record: 92-70-0, Finished 2nd in AL_East (Schedule and Results)

Postseason:
Lost AL Championship Series (4-2) to Houston Astros
Won AL Division Series (3-1) over Tampa Bay Rays
Won AL Wild Card Game (1-0) over New York Yankees

Manager: Alex Cora (92-70)
President: Chaim Bloom (Chief Baseball Officer)

Good job selectively editing my post and omitting the part where I said it’s been bad to very bad in 3 of 4 years. I award you 3 internet points.

teddywingman · Jun 14, 2023

Rovin Romine said:
2021 Boston Red Sox Statistics
Record: 92-70-0, Finished 2nd in AL_East (Schedule and Results)

Postseason:
Lost AL Championship Series (4-2) to Houston Astros
Won AL Division Series (3-1) over Tampa Bay Rays
Won AL Wild Card Game (1-0) over New York Yankees

Manager: Alex Cora (92-70)
President: Chaim Bloom (Chief Baseball Officer)

Not to take anything away from the accomplishments of the 2021 team, but the reason they got so close to the WS is because Kiké magically turned into Manny Ramirez in that post season.

chrisfont9 · Jun 14, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
I’m judging the guy on MLB results along with promise of the farm system.

...But, end of the day, he is paid to build a winner at the MLB level and he hasn’t.

I mean, you are judging him on the job you want him to be doing, but I don't think that's his actual job.

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

chrisfont9 said:
I mean, you are judging him on the job you want him to be doing, but I don't think that's his actual job.

Then I guess we can just disagree on what a GM’s job is then. I think building a team that wins games at the MLB level is kind of part of the job.

Rovin Romine · Jun 14, 2023

BigSoxFan said:
Good job selectively editing my post and omitting the part where I said it’s been bad to very bad in 3 of 4 years. I award you 3 internet points.

2020 was very bad.
2021 was good.
2022 was derailed by injury.

How do you get 3 of 4?

teddywingman said:
Not to take anything away from the accomplishments of the 2021 team, but the reason they got so close to the WS is because Kiké magically turned into Manny Ramirez in that post season.

He had a great post-season, but it's not like he was the only reason.

BaseballJones · Jun 14, 2023

Rovin Romine said:
2020 was very bad.
2021 was good.
2022 was derailed by injury.

How do you get 3 of 4?

You are right about 2022. But it was, at the same time, a bad season. Both are true.

BigSoxFan · Jun 14, 2023

Rovin Romine said:
2020 was very bad.
2021 was good.
2022 was derailed by injury.

How do you get 3 of 4?

2020 very bad
2021 good (or very good factoring in postseason)
2022 bad
2023 bad (so far)

Rovin Romine · Jun 14, 2023

BaseballJones said:
You are right about 2022. But it was, at the same time, a bad season. Both are true.

Sure - that's 2.

Auger34 · Jun 14, 2023

chrisfont9 said:
I mean, you are judging him on the job you want him to be doing, but I don't think that's his actual job.

You don’t think his actual job is to get wins at the major league level? Really?

chrisfont9 · Jun 14, 2023

tbb345 said:
You don’t think his actual job is to get wins at the major league level? Really?

How many times do we need to say the same thing before you will hear it? They are focusing on rebuilding the farm system. Of course he stocked the major league team, but it was done with a bunch of short term commitments and mostly inexpensive building blocks. Seriously, we've been having the same conversation for like 8 months. If you don't like what they're doing, great, but it's pretty clear what they're doing, which means he's probably not going to be judged for the things you want him to be judged for.

Auger34 · Jun 14, 2023

chrisfont9 said:
How many times do we need to say the same thing before you will hear it? They are focusing on rebuilding the farm system. Of course he stocked the major league team, but it was done with a bunch of short term commitments and mostly inexpensive building blocks. Seriously, we've been having the same conversation for like 8 months. If you don't like what they're doing, great, but it's pretty clear what they're doing.

Im sorry but if you legitimately believe that they have no interest in winning at the major league level, you’re completely fucking wrong. That is laughably ridiculous.

Restocking the farm system is definitely another focus but so is the actual major league team….it’s possible that a job has multiple goals.

Petagine in a Bottle · Jun 14, 2023

Do you have any links to share regarding this “focus” on rebuilding the farm system? From when Bloom was hired, Henry stated that he was impressed with Bloom because “the Rays develop pitching”, and that the team was committed to rebuild and cut payroll while staying competitive (which they have largely done, I think).

At the end of last year, Bloom expressed disappointment, saying that the team hoped and fully expected to be in the postseason.

8slim · Jun 14, 2023

Rovin Romine said:
2021 Boston Red Sox Statistics
Record: 92-70-0, Finished 2nd in AL_East (Schedule and Results)

Postseason:
Lost AL Championship Series (4-2) to Houston Astros
Won AL Division Series (3-1) over Tampa Bay Rays
Won AL Wild Card Game (1-0) over New York Yankees

Manager: Alex Cora (92-70)
President: Chaim Bloom (Chief Baseball Officer)

Thanks for making my point. Let’s hope we have a better-than-2021-type season again before 2028.

How long will Chaim last?

When will FSG see the light and fire this guy?

Prior to the season opener

By Memorial Day 2023

By 4th of July 2023

By Labor Day 2023

Next offseason

Sometime during the 2024 season

2024 offseason

Sometime during the 2025 season

2025 offseason

BLOOM FOREVAH

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