Porter entering the field of play should have been allowed? Is that your point?Bumping the official should be allowed because it was a big game? Is that your point?
Porter entering the field of play should have been allowed? Is that your point?Bumping the official should be allowed because it was a big game? Is that your point?
No.Porter entering the field of play should have been allowed? Is that your point?
My god. Are you even reading what anyone is writing?Porter entering the field of play should have been allowed? Is that your point?
I was just kidding about you being able to read minds or see the future dude. You really can't.Flagging Porter, at minimum, renders Pacman's outburst irrelevant.
Not one person in this thread has disputed a single word from above.Pacman saw a coach on the field from the other team jawing at his teammates near the end of a chippy game. He sprints toward the coach and runs into (or "HITS") the ref on the way. If the Ref's are calling the game correctly, Porter gets a flag whether Pacman does or doesn't.
What drives me nuts about this is that it's a good example of how poorly coached the Bengals are - all of the chippy shit from the Steelers is intentional - because they know the Bengals will react. Its the sort of thing good teams know to do, and its part of the reason the Bengals keep going 1-and-done in the playoffs. (Brown was probably winking because he thought Jones was He-Man or something. He was clearly concussed)Adam Jones goes as far as to claim that Antontio Brown was winking at him.
What's next, coquettish fan-work?
If Sitting Bull's warriors had not attacked, General Custer's fatal strategic blunder at the Little Bighorn would have been rendered irrelevant.Flagging Porter, at minimum, renders Pacman's outburst irrelevant.
The best part of that link was this line. Pacman needs to brush up on his awards.Adam Jones goes as far as to claim that Antontio Brown was winking at him.
What's next, coquettish fan-work?
"He deserved a Grammy Award for that," he said. "I know if you just got knocked out you ain't going to be able to wink and tell me you're OK."
Maybe/maybe not. I'm not intimately familiar with the NFL rules around penalty assessment, but there may not be an offset here due to live ball fouls and dead ball fouls.For a myriad of reasons the correct call on the Pacman play are offsetting penalties (Jones and Porter), and the officials took plenty of time after throwing the flag after the contact to discuss and come up with this. The fact that they did not is just further evidence of the state of officiating in the NFL.
By rule - Porter should have been flagged with Unsportsmanlike Conduct - the same as Pacman -those two would have offset. The Burfict penalty would have still stood though.Maybe/maybe not. I'm not intimately familiar with the NFL rules around penalty assessment, but there may not be an offset here due to live ball fouls and dead ball fouls.
Both the Porter foul, if it had been called, and the Jones foul were dead ball fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct, so they should have offset. See Rule 14, Section 4, Article 9 of the NFL Rulebook.Maybe/maybe not. I'm not intimately familiar with the NFL rules around penalty assessment, but there may not be an offset here due to live ball fouls and dead ball fouls.
Dead Ball Fouls by both teams are offset at the succeeding spot, and the down counts, but any disqualified player or players must be removed pursuant to Rule 5, Section 2, Article 7.
Honest question: Do you really think he was "bullying the officials", or do you think he was simply trying to get at Porter and brushed the official on the way by.The difference is that there was a ref between Jones and Porter. So in order to confront Porter Jones had to run up the back of one official (82) and nearly elbow another in the face (132). Video is in this link.
You can't bully the officials around even if you really really think they are doing a shitty job.
As someone just reading through this, it sounds like two sides are talking past each other while actually agreeing (or at least not disagreeing):A Steeler was lying on the ground, possibly killed by a Bengal.
A Bengal takes this opportunity to get offended by (pick anything).
A Bengal costs his team 15 crucial yards instead of just being a man, walking away, taking a knee, and praying that Brown isn't paralyzed.
Put it another way - try to imagine a Belichick Patriot doing what Jones did, and even if you can...try to imagine how a team mate feels watching Jones "blow off some steam" and cost his team 15 yards. There is absolutely nothing...NOTHING that defends Jones' actions. Not a single thing.
I won't answer for him, but while Jones may have not been "bullying the officials," he did more than "brush" one. His actions should be flagged 100% of the time.Honest question: Do you really think he was "bullying the officials", or do you think he was simply trying to get at Porter and brushed the official on the way by.
99% of the time, I'm for a no-tolerance rule on touching officials. To end a playoff game because one guy got brushed and another guy "nearly" got touched doesn't feel right to me.
I said this, somewhere, last night, but ... when a scrum starts, officials often get jostled, sometimes worse than what Jones did. The problem here was the timing.Honest question: Do you really think he was "bullying the officials", or do you think he was simply trying to get at Porter and brushed the official on the way by.
99% of the time, I'm for a no-tolerance rule on touching officials. To end a playoff game because one guy got brushed and another guy "nearly" got touched doesn't feel right to me.
He lunged over an official and tried to grab Porter, and got pulled away after literally half a second. At worst its incidental contact. And, yes, I think that should normally be a penalty. But not to decide a playoff game. Fine the guy and suspend him for the next game, but I don't agree that should decide a game.I won't answer for him, but while Jones may have not been "bullying the officials," he did more than "brush" one. His actions should be flagged 100% of the time.
The refs can't pick the times when they get hit(or brushed) and they can't choose not to call it because it's a crucial period in the game.He lunged over an official and tried to grab Porter, and got pulled away after literally half a second. At worst its incidental contact. And, yes, I think that should normally be a penalty. But not to decide a playoff game. Fine the guy and suspend him for the next game, but I don't agree that should decide a game.
I don't agree. We've seen ref's pick up flags and not call things all the time.The refs can't pick the times when they get hit(or brushed) and they can't choose not to call it because it's a crucial period in the game.
As someone stated above, the second the refs decide to not call something like that because it's a critical spot, it puts them at risk from very strong, very fast men in pads.I don't agree. We've seen ref's pick up flags and not call things all the time.
This is so true and it extended to ESPN and just about everyone else's take on this game. The Bengals are seen as out of control a'holes while the Steelers are tough or warriors. Totally absurd storyline.On a side note, I thought the broadcast was called heavily one way. I didn't hear a peep out of Simms or Nantz about Shazier taunting the crowd after knocking out Bernard with an uncalled illegal hit. Frankly, I thought both teams challenged how scummy you could be on a football field and I thought it was pretty ridiculous that only one of them seemed to get called out on it.
The problem is, if they are going to call automatic penalties (and I agree they should), then call ALL automatic penalties -- particularly in a game called as tightly early on as this one. There was plenty of time after the flag was dropped on Jones to call a matching penalty on Porter. It wasn't done, for whatever reasonAs someone stated above, the second the refs decide to not call something like that because it's a critical spot, it puts them at risk from very strong, very fast men in pads.
I just want to chime in to say that this is giving the Steelers too much credit. The chippy shit may be intentional, and the Steelers may be a good team, but the idea that they do the chippy shit because they are a good team is too much.What drives me nuts about this is that it's a good example of how poorly coached the Bengals are - all of the chippy shit from the Steelers is intentional - because they know the Bengals will react. Its the sort of thing good teams know to do, and its part of the reason the Bengals keep going 1-and-done in the playoffs. (Brown was probably winking because he thought Jones was He-Man or something. He was clearly concussed)
The refs should definitely do more about the steelers coaches being on the field and such - and Munchak should have been expelled, but the Bengals need to stop being so easy to goad.
Steelers can be assholes and will pay for their assholedom next weekend.This is so true and it extended to ESPN and just about everyone else's take on this game. The Bengals are seen as out of control a'holes while the Steelers are tough or warriors. Totally absurd storyline.
And it's amazing to me how the Pats are hated and reviled by all when they never do crap like this. The whole league is difficult to swallow.
I prefer forcing players to demonstrate emotional intelligence over forcing officials to determine which kinds of physical contact towards them should be flagged and which shouldn't, and when.He lunged over an official and tried to grab Porter, and got pulled away after literally half a second. At worst its incidental contact. And, yes, I think that should normally be a penalty. But not to decide a playoff game. Fine the guy and suspend him for the next game, but I don't agree that should decide a game.
If we're looking for karma, shouldn't clean hits that take out Talib, Ward, and Miller happen first?Steelers can be assholes and will pay for their assholedom next weekend.
Clean hit on Ben. Pure Karma.
Yes it is.Is a coach on the field against the rules? I don't see how it can be because it happens all the time.
Head coaches can go on the field in certain situations, including attending to an injured player. Assistant coaches being on the field might not always be penalized, but there is a specific rule about them not being allowed to become part of an altercation.Is a coach on the field against the rules? I don't see how it can be because it happens all the time.
So, Porter is guilty of what, exactly? Being an ass? (well, this is pretty much a given, but beside the point.
There are two issues here: fairness and entertainment. I might think it's fair that Jones was flagged and cost the Bengals the game, but on the other hand football is fundamentally entertainment and, as a fan, it sucks to see the game essentially decided by a penalty that had zero on-the-field impact. I wouldn't go so far as to say the ref shouldn't have thrown the flag - it's not his job to keep the game entertaining - but it still sucks that he did.I prefer forcing players to demonstrate emotional intelligence over forcing officials to determine which kinds of physical contact towards them should be flagged and which shouldn't, and when.
Have poise on the field and it's not an issue.
Fine. I just thought it a bit much that Tomlin lauded typical AFC North football after the game, and the non-flag on the Shazier hit really bothers me.If we're looking for karma, shouldn't clean hits that take out Talib, Ward, and Miller happen first?
As close as I've found, thus far, to why Porter could/should have been penalizedNot to be an ass, but can anyone point to the specific rule that prohibits coaches from being on the field during timeouts? I have seen this happen many, many times while watching NFL games.
Agreed. He's an ass, too. The league seems to be full of them.Fine. I just thought it a bit much that Tomlin lauded typical AFC North football after the game, and the non-flag on the Shazier hit really bothers me.
It's probably because people are slamming the Bengals for lacking composure when the Steelers did a bunch of things that lacked composure as well? And the team that won wasn't necessarily more composed, they just got some great calls in their favor?One of the things that is frustrating me about the entire site now is the tendency towards deflection. Seemingly every discussion seems to veer off into the category of "BUT WHAT ABOUT (opposing player/coach/political figure/you name it)????!!!!????" No one seems able to address the substance of any comment - we all just want to point to "the other guy" as a way of defending our position.
Is a coach on the field against the rules? I don't see how it can be because it happens all the time.
So, Porter is guilty of what, exactly? Being an ass? (well, this is pretty much a given, but beside the point).
There are two different rules in question here with Joey Porter's actions. http://uaasnfl.blob.core.windows.net/live/1807/2015_nfl_rule_book_final.pdfNot to be an ass, but can anyone point to the specific rule that prohibits coaches from being on the field during timeouts? I have seen this happen many, many times while watching NFL games.
Rule 13 Section 1 Article 8 prohibits non-player personnel from directing abusive/threatening/insulting language at opponents. That appears to be what Joey Porter was doing while he was on the field, but nothing about this rule says that he has to be on the field to be guilty of that.ARTICLE 2. TEAM ATTENDANTS MAY ENTER FIELD DURING TIMEOUT. Either or both team attendants and their helpers may enter the field to attend their team during a team timeout by either team. No other non-player may come on the field without the Referee’s permission, unless he is an incoming substitute (5-2-2). During any team timeout, all playing rules continue in force. Representatives of either team are prohibited from entering the field unless they are incoming substitutes, or team attendants or trainers entering to provide for the welfare of a player, and any game-type activities are prohibited on the Field of Play.
Non-player personnel of a club (e.g., management personnel, coaches, trainers, equipment men) are prohibited from making unnecessary physical contact with or directing abusive, threatening, or insulting language or gestures at opponents, game officials, or representatives of the League. Penalty: Loss of 15 yards. (Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)
Way out on the field, in the midst of everyone? Or near the sideline as the team huddles around them?Not to be an ass, but can anyone point to the specific rule that prohibits coaches from being on the field during timeouts? I have seen this happen many, many times while watching NFL games.
Anyone should google this incident if they're ever bored. It's one of life's truly bad beats that Porter didn't die when he was shot a few years ago - he's an utterly despicable human being.RE: Jones and Porter, people wonder why Jones would fight with Porter. How stupid is he!? No Patriots player would be dumb enough to retaliate there! Well, no Patriots defensive assistant coach would be out on the field if Edelman was concussed. Because there's no reason for him to be. Joey Porter is also the same guy who threatened to kill former Bengals OT Levi Jones. He deserves the benefit of the doubt... why?
Thank you for this.There are two different rules in question here with Joey Porter's actions. http://uaasnfl.blob.core.windows.net/live/1807/2015_nfl_rule_book_final.pdf
Rule 13 Section 1 Article 2 says that Assistant Coaches should not enter the field. However, there is no specific penalty prescribed. That makes it a violation, which in and of itself does not offset Jones' foul (Rule 3 Section 14 Article 4).
Rule 13 Section 1 Article 8 prohibits non-player personnel from directing abusive/threatening/insulting language at opponents. That appear to be what Joey Porter was doing while he was on the field, but nothing about this rule says that he has to be on the field to be guilty of that.
Both, but obviously the latter occurs more than the former.Way out on the field, in the midst of everyone? Or near the sideline as the team huddles around them?
I don't think anyone "defending" the Bengals is arguing that they should not have been penalized. The issue is that both teams were up to no good and only one was penalized.I have no doubt that Porter could have, and perhaps should have, been flagged for what he said while on the field, but the same is true of the Bengals players, too. There is also a similar rule for players, right? The point is that both sides could have been flagged for the talking that was occurring.