2017-18 NBA Regular Season Game/Observation Thread

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Great piece in The Ringer today from Kevin O'Connor (Hi Kevin, just in case you ever slum it here with us fellow C's fans) with take-aways from the Sloan conference this weekend.

In the interest of making sure people read the article, which is short and well worth any true NBA fan's time, I will share a few pieces:

During a panel called “Take That for Data: Basketball Analytics,” Nick Wright of Fox Sports asked Rockets general manager Morey and Celtics assistant general manager Mike Zarren about the strength of a single-number advanced statistic such as real plus-minus (RPM), which currently ranks Tyus Jones and Fred VanVleet as top-14 players. Zarren said that if a stat is at odds with what you’re watching, then either the way the number is calculated or the way you’re watching the game is probably wrong. Morey pointed out that although a statistic like RPM can pick up on how some players provide a role when they’re on the floor that helps the team win, “that player could be very replaceable by multiple players with that same skill set. … Even though it’s correct that they’re creating that winning, in our roles of having to decide player to player, you have to think about how else can you fill that role.” In other words, data can’t be the be-all and end-all.

And I am guilty of the following, albeit as a shorthand way of analyzing defense in combination with DBPM:

One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. There’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players who make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season when analyzing Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with.

The article has plenty of other interesting pieces of information to putting conditions around players in trades to teams potentially being able to trade lottery ping-pong balls to Jimmy Butler's injury. Again, its worth your time to read the whole thing. O'Connor is pretty much a must-read for me these days.

 

[LondonSox]

I don't know man I feel like KoC has been on a downward trend for a bit now.
I'm not sure why. I used to regard him as must read, as did many of the community of NBA people I interact with.
Recently we all, separately, have started dinging him for some horrible opinions.

his tape clips and comments are good but he seems to be leaning with the wind on the quick take and frankly, feels like hes' been hanging out with Bill too much. I don't know but more hot takes and opinions, less film.

Even today he managed to tweet out around this piece that some people there still think Ingram will be better than simmons, as Ingram has had a good 20 games and the shooting is there where Simmons isn't.
Just co-incidentally this helps him not take back his Ingram > Simmons take which he has had since pre last year's draft.
Everyone I follow, who is worth a damn, on basketball has been making fun of his tweets on this today.

Even that Van Vleet example is not good, if he leads the team in defensive rating, the team performs better when he is on the floor. Yes it's a team rating, and you need to look at lineups etc, and that isn't isn't as simple as the first statement. It's equally true that him having the best average defensive rating for all the lineups he's played in, does say something. OBviously, if everyone is basically the same, it doesn't say much. But for a player to lead a good team in defensive rating does say something about that player's performance.

The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players who make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season when analyzing Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with.

Obviously, you can't assume a player will perform at the same level in another system, and that player in another role.
It doesn't mean Jae Crowder wasn't good defensively for the Celtics. If JAe Crowder led the celtics in Defensive rating he says he was REALLY good within that system. Not that you should ignore that rating. You do need to know that it doesn't mean he'll replicate this on another team. If it was nothing to do with Jae why didn't everyone put up those numbers in that role???

Basically, yes you can't read an individual's defensive rating and the like stats in a vacuum, but suggesting you should ignore them because TEAM is also very very wrong.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I completely agree with you that Russ is a drama queen, especially his pre/post game fashion statements down the catwalk.

Even if this is a "nothingburger", NBA talking heads and other players are grumbling a little louder about this incident and Zaza's previous transgressions. The rest of league is definitely jealous of the Warriors success and it may be open season for NBA thugs to start pulling Zaza style play on KD/Steph/Klay.

IMO Myers/Kerr should really want to nip this in the bud, they have the most to lose here. Suspend Zaza for a game, give his 1 game of salary to a charity and say the mere appearance of dirty play won't be tolerated.

Lol, wait ... so on the one hand, according to El Uno, I'm supposed to stop whining and just enjoy my team while Warrior-hating dickheads like Nick Wright serve up non-stop nothingburger "scandals" about the Warriors that would make Devin Nunes blush; but on the other hand, when Ratface Wright publicly demands that Kerr bench Zaza (as he did today) I'm supposed to think it's reasonable for Kerr to consider caving to his demands?

Ah well. I see your point, but I'm glad Kerr effectively gave Wright and his ilk the finger tonight.

Fwiw: the Warriors stars already receive their fair share of "Zaza-style" play. Have you seen the permanent deep gouges, scratches and scars all over their chest and arms that Steph and Klay have from getting mauled all day long running around screens? I'm sure you have, but never thought it was a big deal since Steph and Klay don't whine about them like salty drama queens.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Anthony Davis is going off again. Currently at 48 points, 13 boards with about 5 minutes left against the Suns. Booker has 38 on the other side in a close game. I think Davis is averaging close to or over 40 a game over his last 6-7 games or so.

 

[Deathofthebambino]

Yup, he's averaging 41ppg and 14rpg over his last 6 games, and over 35ppg in the month of February. He's now up to 49/14 tonight.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Nets crush the Bulls, 104-87. Gotta think they end up with the 8th worst record (or even 9th, ahead of NYK) if the other bottom-feeders have any tanking skills whatsoever.

 

[Reverend]

I don't know man I feel like KoC has been on a downward trend for a bit now.
I'm not sure why. I used to regard him as must read, as did many of the community of NBA people I interact with.
Recently we all, separately, have started dinging him for some horrible opinions.

his tape clips and comments are good but he seems to be leaning with the wind on the quick take and frankly, feels like hes' been hanging out with Bill too much. I don't know but more hot takes and opinions, less film.

Even today he managed to tweet out around this piece that some people there still think Ingram will be better than simmons, as Ingram has had a good 20 games and the shooting is there where Simmons isn't.
Just co-incidentally this helps him not take back his Ingram > Simmons take which he has had since pre last year's draft.
Everyone I follow, who is worth a damn, on basketball has been making fun of his tweets on this today.

Even that Van Vleet example is not good, if he leads the team in defensive rating, the team performs better when he is on the floor. Yes it's a team rating, and you need to look at lineups etc, and that isn't isn't as simple as the first statement. It's equally true that him having the best average defensive rating for all the lineups he's played in, does say something. OBviously, if everyone is basically the same, it doesn't say much. But for a player to lead a good team in defensive rating does say something about that player's performance.



Obviously, you can't assume a player will perform at the same level in another system, and that player in another role.
It doesn't mean Jae Crowder wasn't good defensively for the Celtics. If JAe Crowder led the celtics in Defensive rating he says he was REALLY good within that system. Not that you should ignore that rating. You do need to know that it doesn't mean he'll replicate this on another team. If it was nothing to do with Jae why didn't everyone put up those numbers in that role???

Basically, yes you can't read an individual's defensive rating and the like stats in a vacuum, but suggesting you should ignore them because TEAM is also very very wrong.

I thought the point was that there is no such thing as the jnfividual’s defensive rating. Like, literally.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

RIP Lauri...

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Yup, he's averaging 41ppg and 14rpg over his last 6 games, and over 35ppg in the month of February. He's now up to 49/14 tonight.

Lordy ... 38 minutes, 53 pts (on 29 fga), 17 reb, 5 blocks.

Pels move to 34-26, tied for the #5 seed in the West.

Would probably take an epic collapse by Harden and/or Houston, but if NOP finishes 50-32 or something and ends up a 4th-6th seed, I wonder if AD has an outside shot at MVP. At minimum, I'd think he's #2 at this point.

 

[RedOctober3829]

AD's line: 53 points, 17 rebounds, 5 blocks, 3 assists in 39 minutes. 16-29 FG and 21-26 from the line.

 

[Kliq]

Lordy ... 38 minutes, 53 pts (on 29 fga), 17 reb, 5 blocks.

Pels move to 34-26, tied for the #5 seed in the West.

Would probably take an epic collapse by Harden and/or Houston, but if NOP finishes 50-32 or something and ends up a 4th-6th seed, I wonder if AD has an outside shot at MVP. At minimum, I'd think he's #2 at this point.

When you consider the defensive aspect; I think Davis has a shot. New Orleans is really fun right now; between Brow demolishing fools, Rondo with a renaissance and the awesome Emeka Okafor comeback story (14 points in 18 minutes tonight).

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Lol, wait ... so on the one hand, according to El Uno, I'm supposed to stop whining and just enjoy my team while Warrior-hating dickheads like Nick Wright serve up non-stop nothingburger "scandals" about the Warriors that would make Devin Nunes blush; but on the other hand, when Ratface Wright publicly demands that Kerr bench Zaza (as he did today) I'm supposed to think it's reasonable for Kerr to consider caving to his demands?

Ah well. I see your point, but I'm glad Kerr effectively gave Wright and his ilk the finger tonight.

Fwiw: the Warriors stars already receive their fair share of "Zaza-style" play. Have you seen the permanently deep gouges, scratches and scars all over their chest and arms that Steph and Klay have from getting mauled all day long running around screens? I'm sure you have, but never thought it was a big deal since Steph and Klay don't whine about them like salty drama queens.

None of this matters. You are a Warriors apologist so you simply cannot see that Zaza should be banned from the league per Deadspin. Or maybe, per the ESPN radio hosts this evening, he needs to be fined for fake falling on Russ legs. And on and on. This is one of the top stories in sports today.

Here is the reality - people can call Zaza dirty and many of us will agree. However the pearl clutching going on around the NBA and amongst non-Warrior fans and pundits is pretty outsized given what actually happened. In other words, a lot of the "outrage" has more to do with the fact that its the middle of February and unless you are a core NHL/college hoops fan (i.e. you don't go to Fox Sports or the WWL for your news), there is little in the way of interesting news or controversy for the talking heads to discuss. So Zaza falling on superstar/funny Moutain Dew pitchman Russ' legs takes on the weight of a war crime.

I stand by my original view - this shit happens just about every single night when six-plus to seven-plus foot men are routinely jumping in the air past each other on a 94 by 50 foot surface (and often a much smaller area of that total surface). It is true that it happens with some players more than others and, yes, they are "dirty" because of their repeated involvement. Its just not as noteworthy when it involves some rotation players from two teams who won't make the playoffs and aren't sniffing national television very much.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

I don't know man I feel like KoC has been on a downward trend for a bit now.
I'm not sure why. I used to regard him as must read, as did many of the community of NBA people I interact with.
Recently we all, separately, have started dinging him for some horrible opinions.

his tape clips and comments are good but he seems to be leaning with the wind on the quick take and frankly, feels like hes' been hanging out with Bill too much. I don't know but more hot takes and opinions, less film.

Even today he managed to tweet out around this piece that some people there still think Ingram will be better than simmons, as Ingram has had a good 20 games and the shooting is there where Simmons isn't.
Just co-incidentally this helps him not take back his Ingram > Simmons take which he has had since pre last year's draft.
Everyone I follow, who is worth a damn, on basketball has been making fun of his tweets on this today.

Even that Van Vleet example is not good, if he leads the team in defensive rating, the team performs better when he is on the floor. Yes it's a team rating, and you need to look at lineups etc, and that isn't isn't as simple as the first statement. It's equally true that him having the best average defensive rating for all the lineups he's played in, does say something. OBviously, if everyone is basically the same, it doesn't say much. But for a player to lead a good team in defensive rating does say something about that player's performance.



Obviously, you can't assume a player will perform at the same level in another system, and that player in another role.
It doesn't mean Jae Crowder wasn't good defensively for the Celtics. If JAe Crowder led the celtics in Defensive rating he says he was REALLY good within that system. Not that you should ignore that rating. You do need to know that it doesn't mean he'll replicate this on another team. If it was nothing to do with Jae why didn't everyone put up those numbers in that role???

Basically, yes you can't read an individual's defensive rating and the like stats in a vacuum, but suggesting you should ignore them because TEAM is also very very wrong.

Who do you follow out of curiosity?

My view is that the majority of decent NBA pundits, like the rest of us, have biases so the Ingram/Simmons thing doesn't bother me even if I don't agree with that take at all (I cannot see why it would bother you though...). The other thing to point out is that the observations in today's piece weren't really O'Connor's but those of people he interviewed.

Finally, I am curious who you mean by "community of NBA people". If you mean fellow-fans, its a fair observation. However if you mean other NBA pundits/writers/bloggers, I suspect some of their anti-O'Connor bias may have something to do with envy rather than simply disagreeing with his views. All things equal, he has a pretty decent gig with a boss whose favorite sport is NBA basketball. Simmons has many flaws, all well documented on this site, however his ability to find and promote talent, especially when it comes to covering the Association, is pretty much without peer these days.

 

[BigSoxFan]

AD's line: 53 points, 17 rebounds, 5 blocks, 3 assists in 39 minutes. 16-29 FG and 21-26 from the line.

Yeah...the price for AD now starts at Tatum/Brown/SAC/MEM.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Great piece in The Ringer today from Kevin O'Connor (Hi Kevin, just in case you ever slum it here with us fellow C's fans) with take-aways from the Sloan conference this weekend.

Thought he was a member here but could be mistaken.

Good synopsis, thanks for posting.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Yeah...the price for AD now starts at Tatum/Brown/SAC/MEM.

If he keeps this up, how can the Pelicans trade him?

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Nets crush the Bulls, 104-87. Gotta think they end up with the 8th worst record (or even 9th, ahead of NYK) if the other bottom-feeders have any tanking skills whatsoever.

Nets win but also MEM, ATL, PHO, and ORl all lose. Not surprisngly, DAL (given than Cuban is 6 Large lighter) beat IND. BRK is probably going to end up 7 or 8.

 

[BigSoxFan]

If he keeps this up, how can the Pelicans trade him?

Sadly, they can’t. No reason for them to trade him. I blame Cousins’ improved maturity and then injury.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Very impressive win by the Rockets tonight, climbing out of a 15-point hole on a road B2B in Utah, after a hard-fought win in Denver, without Gordon or Capela.

Grudging tip o’ the cap!

 

[Sam Ray Not]

None of this matters. You are a Warriors apologist so you simply cannot see that Zaza should be banned from the league per Deadspin. Or maybe, per the ESPN radio hosts this evening, he needs to be fined for fake falling on Russ legs. And on and on. This is one of the top stories in sports today.

Here is the reality - people can call Zaza dirty and many of us will agree. However the pearl clutching going on around the NBA and amongst non-Warrior fans and pundits is pretty outsized given what actually happened. In other words, a lot of the "outrage" has more to do with the fact that its the middle of February and unless you are a core NHL/college hoops fan (i.e. you don't go to Fox Sports or the WWL for your news), there is little in the way of interesting news or controversy for the talking heads to discuss. So Zaza falling on superstar/funny Moutain Dew pitchman Russ' legs takes on the weight of a war crime.

I stand by my original view - this shit happens just about every single night when six-plus to seven-plus foot men are routinely jumping in the air past each other on a 94 by 50 foot surface (and often a much smaller area of that total surface). It is true that it happens with some players more than others and, yes, they are "dirty" because of their repeated involvement. Its just not as noteworthy when it involves some rotation players from two teams who won't make the playoffs and aren't sniffing national television very much.

Pretty sure it wouldn’t have been noteworthy even had it been the same two teams and same situation, with anyone falling on Russ’s legs in the same way except the big ugly foreigner with the funny-sounding name and history of chippiness/dirtiness.

Had it been David West instead of Zaza, they probably would have replayed it once, if that, Westy would have got up and played on instead of mean-mugging and griping about it post-game, and the hoops blogosphere would have been crickets. /conjecture

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Jon Stewart was not amused by JaVale's 15-ft. turnaround jumper in the 3rd Q as the Ws pulled away.


Edit: complete gif, including the JaVale shot and some hilariously good camerawork...

 

[Reverend]

There's no thread for something like this, so I'll just put this here:

 

[HomeRunBaker]

SRN, Any chance Bob Myers and Kerr huddle and get in front of this and suspend (really rest) Zaza for a game?
One game without Zaza will have no effect on them winning in MSG tonight. Golden State would be smart to avoid payback/targetting of their 'fragile' stars. Maybe send a signal to the league that they don't encourage the mere appearance of dirty plays. It is not hard to envision Stephen Adams (and other bigs, ie Enes Kanter) to run through screens or set very hard/dirty picks on Klay/KD/Steph.

Great piece in The Ringer today from Kevin O'Connor (Hi Kevin, just in case you ever slum it here with us fellow C's fans) with take-aways from the Sloan conference this weekend.

In the interest of making sure people read the article, which is short and well worth any true NBA fan's time, I will share a few pieces:



And I am guilty of the following, albeit as a shorthand way of analyzing defense in combination with DBPM:



The article has plenty of other interesting pieces of information to putting conditions around players in trades to teams potentially being able to trade lottery ping-pong balls to Jimmy Butler's injury. Again, its worth your time to read the whole thing. O'Connor is pretty much a must-read for me these days.

Thank you for posting. I've been screaming for years that individual defensive numbers assigned to players are only a part of an overall team defense. It is one 5-man defensive unit not one defender in today's schemes.

 

[slamminsammya]

Thank you for posting. I've been screaming for years that individual defensive numbers assigned to players are only a part of an overall team defense. It is one 5-man defensive unit not one defender in today's schemes.

Preach! And I will go toe to toe with anyone who decried Olynyks defense on this basis. Guy was such a solid positional defender.

 

[Reverend]

Thank you for posting. I've been screaming for years that individual defensive numbers assigned to players are only a part of an overall team defense. It is one 5-man defensive unit not one defender in today's schemes.

I'm almost certain the Red Sox focus on the aggregate defense of the OF and not just individual defensive analytics now. I also believe that's why JBJ had a precipitous drop in his personal stats--which of course isn't as important to the final score as team numbers.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Obviously, you can't assume a player will perform at the same level in another system, and that player in another role.
It doesn't mean Jae Crowder wasn't good defensively for the Celtics. If JAe Crowder led the celtics in Defensive rating he says he was REALLY good within that system. Not that you should ignore that rating. You do need to know that it doesn't mean he'll replicate this on another team. If it was nothing to do with Jae why didn't everyone put up those numbers in that role???

Basically, yes you can't read an individual's defensive rating and the like stats in a vacuum, but suggesting you should ignore them because TEAM is also very very wrong.

Isn't Tatum doing just that? As a 20-year old.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Thank you for posting. I've been screaming for years that individual defensive numbers assigned to players are only a part of an overall team defense. It is one 5-man defensive unit not one defender in today's schemes.

Today's defensive schemes are so complicated, I don't even know how they begin to assign numbers.

For example in last night's game, there was one play where Gasol got the ball on the left block; the passer (Harrison?) cut to the basket and Gasol made a decent pass and the cutter went through the lane for an easy dunk. Scal mentioned correctly that the help side had to step up - Morris was the closest defender on the help side but merely waved at the cutter. How is that play scored?

How are plays scored when someone blows the rotation? Does the person scoring even know who is supposed to rotate? Plus the game plan might say don't rotate to someone who isn't known to be a 3P shooter. So if that person is left open and hits a shot, does the scorer have the game plan to know who is at fault?

I think defensive stats can give some insight on who is a good 1 on 1 defender and maybe one can get a feel for how players defend specific actions, but I would base player values on these statistics.

 

[Reverend]

Today's defensive schemes are so complicated, I don't even know how they begin to assign numbers.

For example in last night's game, there was one play where Gasol got the ball on the left block; the passer (Harrison?) cut to the basket and Gasol made a decent pass and the cutter went through the lane for an easy dunk. Scal mentioned correctly that the help side had to step up - Morris was the closest defender on the help side but merely waved at the cutter. How is that play scored?

How are plays scored when someone blows the rotation? Does the person scoring even know who is supposed to rotate? Plus the game plan might say don't rotate to someone who isn't known to be a 3P shooter. So if that person is left open and hits a shot, does the scorer have the game plan to know who is at fault?

I think defensive stats can give some insight on who is a good 1 on 1 defender and maybe one can get a feel for how players defend specific actions, but I would base player values on these statistics.

I wouldn't, to be honest.

Except as a product for fans as long as there is demand for it.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Today's defensive schemes are so complicated, I don't even know how they begin to assign numbers.

For example in last night's game, there was one play where Gasol got the ball on the left block; the passer (Harrison?) cut to the basket and Gasol made a decent pass and the cutter went through the lane for an easy dunk. Scal mentioned correctly that the help side had to step up - Morris was the closest defender on the help side but merely waved at the cutter. How is that play scored?

How are plays scored when someone blows the rotation? Does the person scoring even know who is supposed to rotate? Plus the game plan might say don't rotate to someone who isn't known to be a 3P shooter. So if that person is left open and hits a shot, does the scorer have the game plan to know who is at fault?

I think defensive stats can give some insight on who is a good 1 on 1 defender and maybe one can get a feel for how players defend specific actions, but I would base player values on these statistics.

100% agree. Like not even 99.....100! Great post.

To Rev's point above. If the Red Sox are factoring in more team defense in what is basically an individual sport why are people still looking at individual defensive numbers in a pure TEAM sport? I'm surprised I don't have a concussion for banging my head on the table every time someone said George Hill was "cooked" based on his defensive metrics in a clusterfvck situation in SacTown.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

100% agree. Like not even 99.....100! Great post.

To Rev's point above. If the Red Sox are factoring in more team defense in what is basically an individual sport why are people still looking at individual defensive numbers in a pure TEAM sport? I'm surprised I don't have a concussion for banging my head on the table every time someone said George Hill was "cooked" based on his defensive metrics in a clusterfvck situation in SacTown.

Well I may be guilty of stating that Hill's defense has declined (I don't recall using the term cooked) so apologies for your headache.

That said, I stand by my position even if the numbers cited are largely team and scheme dependent. The guy is going to be 32 years old in two months and every metric available suggests his defense has fallen off as he has aged which makes sense. I believe even you have agreed that players in their 30s will start to see declines or maybe that was just IT.

Regardless, evaluation of player defense is tricky no matter how it's done.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Quick segway.....

NBA Tankers* (NY Chic Orl Atl Dal Mem Sac Phx) are now 2-21 ST 8-15 ATS since the All Star Break. *Tankers defined to be teams clearly out of any playoff chance, AND have their No.1 Pick (Brooklyn, LAL do not have theirs).

Credit to Steve Fezzik.


For those wagering look for the market to adjust significantly on these teams.

 

[Reverend]

100% agree. Like not even 99.....100! Great post.

To Rev's point above. If the Red Sox are factoring in more team defense in what is basically an individual sport why are people still looking at individual defensive numbers in a pure TEAM sport? I'm surprised I don't have a concussion for banging my head on the table every time someone said George Hill was "cooked" based on his defensive metrics in a clusterfvck situation in SacTown.

You should see the clusterfuck that is consumer facing football defensive analytics.

Every Patriot fans knows that the most important factor on the offensive line is the coach Belichick had to lure out of retirement.

Did you look at the Rodman Dissertation I posted in the Smart thread? It looks weird and daunting at first but it's totally worth a skim just for the charts and diagrams.

 

[InstaFace]

Quick segway.....

Spoiler

 

[slamminsammya]

If AD wins the MVP, would Harden's last two seasons be the best ever to not win the MVP? I am sure Lebron had a few in there.

 

[slamminsammya]

You should see the clusterfuck that is consumer facing football defensive analytics.

Every Patriot fans knows that the most important factor on the offensive line is the coach Belichick had to lure out of retirement.

Did you look at the Rodman Dissertation I posted in the Smart thread? It looks weird and daunting at first but it's totally worth a skim just for the charts and diagrams.

The "Rodman is the greatest player ever" guy works at 538 now. He also had some "Randy Moss is the best receiver ever" on his own website that was pretty great when he was on the Pats.

 

[DannyDarwinism]

If AD wins the MVP, would Harden's last two seasons be the best ever to not win the MVP? I am sure Lebron had a few in there.

Jordan lost out to Magic in what was arguably his best season ever- 88'-89'. Per game line of 32.5-8-8-2.9-0.8, on 61.4 TS%, with a 31.1 PER and a 12.6 BPM, plus All-Defensive First team.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

If AD wins the MVP, would Harden's last two seasons be the best ever to not win the MVP? I am sure Lebron had a few in there.

Wilt Chamberlain tells James Harden to "Hold My Beer."

In 1961-62 I led the NBA in.........

PPG - 50.4
RPG - 25.7
PER - 31.7
Off WS - 17.1

Minutes Played, Games Played (tied), FGA, FGM, FTA, FTM

......And was 2nd in FG% and Def WS.



Then for good measure I did it again in 1962-63 once again without winning MVP.

 

[Kliq]

Wilt Chamberlain tells James Harden to "Hold My Beer."

In 1961-62 I led the NBA in.........

PPG - 50.4
RPG - 25.7
PER - 31.7
Off WS - 17.1

Minutes Played, Games Played (tied), FGA, FGM, FTA, FTM

......And was 2nd in FG% and Def WS.



Then for good measure I did it again in 1962-63 once again without winning MVP.

I'm not sure that is really fair since the players voted for the MVP back then; it is hard to compare it to the award it is today. Obviously, the players were not as impressed with Wilt's statistics as the media, or fans today.

Jordan lost out to Magic in what was arguably his best season ever- 88'-89'. Per game line of 32.5-8-8-2.9-0.8, on 61.4 TS%, with a 31.1 PER and a 12.6 BPM, plus All-Defensive First team.

Yup. Basically any season between 87' and '98 that Jordan didn't win the MVP award is probably the best season to ever not win the MVP award, Birmingham Barons run notwithstanding.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

I'm not sure that is really fair since the players voted for the MVP back then; it is hard to compare it to the award it is today. Obviously, the players were not as impressed with Wilt's statistics as the media, or fans today.



Yup. Basically any season between 87' and '98 that Jordan didn't win the MVP award is probably the best season to ever not win the MVP award, Birmingham Barons run notwithstanding.

What does the players voting have to do with the question posed above by slammin?

 

[Kliq]

What does the players voting have to do with the question posed above by slammin?

The players and the media obviously had different opinions on who was better that year (Wilt was named first team All-NBA that season, which was voted on by the media, while losing the MVP to Russell, who didn't make first team All-NBA). If the players voted on the MVP award today, it could very well be very different than who the media selects; so I don't think the pre-1980 awards should be used as a comparison with the award that is given out today.

 

[FredCDobbs]

Greg Monroe is washed. Like Patrick Ewing at the end of his career, he has old man knees that hurt when he runs. I guess that's why he was released. Once a player hits that point he is done, over, he has ceased to be.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

JaVale liked Jon Stewart's reaction so much it made his Twitter banner: https://twitter.com/javalemcgee?lang=en

(Which may be only the second-most amusing thing in the banner, after JaVale organic grocery-shopping at Oakland Whole Foods in sunglasses and a bathrobe...)

 

[LondonSox]

I thought the point was that there is no such thing as the jnfividual’s defensive rating. Like, literally.

Which is fair, you can't look at player A vs player B defensive rating and say A is better, if they are on different teams.
I don't see why you can't look at intra team and see who is better in the same system with the same teammates

DJ I'll get you a list later
But Jacob Goldstein, Tim mccranjies or whatever his real name is, I'll have to look later for a list. Cole and steipen team esp for draft. (I dropped odetooden as I think he unconsciously tries to be contrarian. Without noticing is worse when it comes to horrible bias issues)
It's very non team specific (outside sixers) Lakers, heat, bulls, warriors

 

[RedOctober3829]

Guess Cleveland's defense isn't fixed. Gave up 61 points in the 1st half to Brooklyn. 61-60 Nets at half.

 

[chilidawg]

Guess Cleveland's defense isn't fixed. Gave up 61 points in the 1st half to Brooklyn. 61-60 Nets at half.

Got to think they'll pull it out, but what a double loss that could be for the Cavs.

 

[ElUno20]

No Boban love? Come on guys, it only comes once a year, the Boban game.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

Got to think they'll pull it out, but what a double loss that could be for the Cavs.

Cavs did pull it out although BRK went up 1 with like 2:00 minutes to go on a Russell 3P. Down the stretch, however, CLE got at least 2 offensive rebounds and BRK stopped getting any shots. In fact, Allen had been getting good shots on the PnR all night and they couldn't execute it down the stretch.

The difference between winning and losing in most of the NBA these days.

Entertaining game though. Even CLE's announcers recognized that they have problems guarding people one on one.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

No Boban love? Come on guys, it only comes once a year, the Boban game.

I'll give him some love. 18 pts on 8 fga in 15 minutes! I only caught the last couple minutes of the game, but was impressed that Doc had him in there to throw the final inbounds pass.

Much less impressive was Doc's decision to put in Austin Rivers of the 63% FT on that play — WTF?? And of course. Murphy's Law, he ended up receiving the inbounds, taking the foul, and promptly clanging the first one badly, leaving the Nuggets a pretty wide berth to steal the game. He redeemed himself with the great poke-away at the end, but that doesn't excuse Doc's bizarre decision.

Generally: Doc Jr. notwithstanding, this is a super likable bunch these days, now that Dirty-Sneaky CP3 and "I-punch-people-half-my-size" Griffin are gone. Everyone loves DJ and Sweet Lou; Teodosic is fascinating; the Boban is hilarious; Tobias Harris already seems to fit really well; and then they have young, fun energy guys like Tyrone Wallace (go Bears!) and Montrezl Harrell who just get after it on every play. Even Gallo is likable and fun to watch in the 3 games a year in which he's healthy.

Or maybe I'm just talking myself into them cos they've got the Rockets on tap tonight. Go Clips!

Seriously, though, we're ~60 games into the season and the Clips are *one loss back of the #3 seed.* That would have been unthinkable early in the season when Griffin went down. They looked destined for 25-30 wins in the WC buzzsaw. Huge props to Doc, Lou, DJ and others for keeping them playing together and fighting so hard.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

....

And of course, quietly lurking behind it all: Jerry West, who you know was key in the decision to dump the Blake Albatross, just as he was key in keeping the Warriors from trading Klay (and maybe Draymond??) for Kevin Love before the 2014-15 season. Unlike the vast majority of the hoops universe (including most Ws fans, and some in the Ws front office) West had an inkling that the Ws young core, given better coaching and another year of development, could do significantly better than the #6 seed.

All hail the Logo.

 

[Tony C]

Couldn't agree more with all of that. West really is the BB of the NBA....just smarter and more cold-blooded.

And that was a helluva exciting game last night. Really remarkable what the Clippers have done -- they're both more competitive after the Blake trade and they have more room to grow. At a minimum, this run will make them a more appealing free agent destination.

Also all hail Doc as he gets credit...but damn he sure does make weird decisions, including burying Boban since his acquisition. His use last night seemed random and lord knows it worked out, making all the stats types who have been arguing for his use happy.