One thing that stood out tonight was how often, and how easily, SGA took Jrue off the dribble.
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2023-24 Celtics
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Seriously, I've been following SGA's ascension in daily box scores, but watching him over the course of an entire game ... he's fantastic.
Wyc/Pags can easily do what Mark Cuban recently did.
1. Retain a minority VANITY stake
2. Run the team
3. Receive a multi-billion dollar payout
There are plenty of bidders for NBA franchises. The player contracts are short-dated, top players are capped, CBA has been signed, & TV rights are up.
PLUS the commissioner rubber-stamps gaming operator ownership in less than a week.
I'd expect the C's will retain the talent they have assembled & pay a hefty tax bill during the JAYs Years (if successful).
All bets are off if they fizzle out of the playoffs.
Looked like Tatum gave him a little trouble when he picked him up. Fun game.
I mostly agree, but there are some things to take from it. The biggest one is that they had some trouble cracking OKC's defense for long stretches, although missing tons of open 3s in the 3rd quarter didn't help the cracking.
Jrue was pretty bad on both ends (benched down the stretch for PP), but that's maybe less a takeaway than just he's hurt/tired and should sit a few games.
SGA and Jalen Williams are really talented scorers, and you have to concede something to take that away. When Josh Giddey is hitting 4/7 and SGA (30% 3-point shooter on low volume) is hitting stepback 3s, it's hard to have an answer. Credit the coaching staff for staying creative and trying to find things all the way to the end though.
"Make or miss league" seems too strong a takeaway for a game in which Boston went 15/40 and OKC went 18/40 from 3. In an actual series, I think the C's biggest adjustment would be figuring out which defensive matchups work, and also executing more precisely and forcefully offensively.
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I didn't know this. The most impressive think about the owners, then, is theit willingness to do this despite not having the typical owner wealth.
OKC has several guys who are, if not weak, less strong than they will be later in their careers—-SGA, Chet, better Williams, etc. I’d guess one adjustment is Celts leaning more into that - they already won on the boards, but we saw less bullyball from Jays, from Jrue (who was hurt and couldn’t hit anything when he tried), Horford, and I’d guess some of Brissett and possibly even Stevens crashing for a few.
I totally see why people are trade-mocking Beef Stew and guys like that to OKC, I suspect in a playoff series teams like MN and Lakers are going to punish them inside and with strength.
I can't believe all the draft picks the Thunder still have, right through 2030. At some point, Presti will have to cash these in and build around some nucleus. I wonder if we'll see another young Harden/Westbrook/Durant lineup taking shape.
Pags has like 3-4 bn at this point. His wealth surged with private equity’s success since they bought the team.
That was my first time watching him for a full game also, I was thinking the exact same thing.
They could be scary good very soon if they play their cards right. They have the best draft capital in the league on top of the solid core they already have that should improve as they hit their prime. As others have mentioned they need some size/muscle, and they have plenty of picks they can use to get it. And then they'll still have picks leftover to add more young talent in upcoming drafts. With health and a smart GM they should be a major factor for years.
Edit: But will they spend the money to keep all that talent?
He could also buy a larger stake in the club, I assume which wouldn’t even introduce another player in the mix.
Right, this would be my biggest concern for the Thunder: do they have enough buttons to push over a 7-game series?
Their base scheme/personnel are really good, but it felt like the Celtics were finding things on both ends as the game went along. It was partially masked by the 3rd quarter shooting disparity, but the Celtics' weakest part of the game was actually the start, imo.
It’s an oversimplification however I think it is a good takeaway. OKC went 48-91 from the floor while the Celtics were 42-92. OKC’s 6 FG advantage won the game for them. The Celtics got to the FT line more frequently and had more rebounds than OKC but that wasn’t enough to overcome the FG disparity.
Another way to look at it is the had one poor 12 minute stretch of shooting where they were 9-26 for .346 FG% vs 16-26 for .615 for OKC (the 3rd quarter) and it cost them the game.
Credit to OKC. They are really good on both sides of the ball and were better in both disciplines last night.
I’m looking forward to the April 3 rematch in Boston. These two teams match up very well and are super fun to watch.
Unfortunately (fortunately?) we aren't likely to see these two teams match up in a 7 game series. OKC was very impressive. But I think over the course of a series the Celts would be too much for them. OKC would take a game or two for sure though, and might even push it to 7.
Historically speaking there is the playoff progression that nearly every Champion goes through when they grow together. It is likely that the Thunder grab a series, maybe even two, but then succumb to more physical and more experienced teams in the WC who are also really good. They don't need a lot as far as personnel....they need to age and they need a physical frontcourt presence like if a heathy Steven Adams was still there. That's the next acquisition they need....Duren, Beef Stew, Day'Ron Sharpe from the Nets, etc.
As for last night I mentioned in game thread and/or Silver Dollar in early 2Q how everything was coming easy for OKC and not so much for us. The expected run came in that middle stretch of the 2H and it's tough to overcome a deficit when a team is so good at scoring as this Thunder team is....especially at home with the crowd treating this as a playoff game which the team fed off. This was one of those expected losses on the schedule so we move on. Bring on Kris Dunn and the Jazz!!
Yes, even look at last night, the thunder played poorly down the stretch. SGA started forcing things, and the team stood around watching at times. The Thunder talent is real, and they are deep. But they are exceptionally young. They have guys who are still transitioning from teens to men physically.
People want them to push all in for this season, and I don't think they are ready for that. Not saying a consolidation trade where they add a long term asset wouldn't make sense. In terms of getting a player, I look at a Beef Stew, and I am not sure he is all that much better than JWill, he'd help, but I suspect the way MD does rotation, he'd be a 15 minute bench player, and not a starter in OKC (don't think they would take Dort/Giddy out for him). Maybe that does help for the right price
We got a preview of playoff Tatum last night. 30/13/8, only 5 threes, drove 15 times, had 13 potential assists, and made SGA a non factor down the stretch.
The Thunder threw the kitchen sink at him like he will see in the playoffs, and he consistently was able to get to the rim, draw fouls, and create a ton of wide open looks for others. He just had some tough rim luck, the whole team did, was stupid lol.
The Thunder threw the kitchen sink at him like he will see in the playoffs, and he consistently was able to get to the rim, draw fouls, and create a ton of wide open looks for others. He just had some tough rim luck, the whole team did, was stupid lol.
Ever since halftime of the Pistons' game, he's almost completely excised the bad 3s (and willingly taken the good ones, which is necessary).
It looks like he's ready to start being who he needs to be.
You can't win 'em all, and that was a very tough matchup. I was glad to see them battle back and get close after falling down by so much - that showed some grit, even if in the end the result was still the same. I can't remember if some of OKC's lead was built with DWhite out of the game with the head laceration or not - my recollection is that was NOT the case, so not sure we can blame it on him being unavailable. I did like Tatum's overall game, but we still ended up with the dribble, dribble step back three play a couple of times. He made it once, and missed the other - if I recall correctly. Just wish they would stop doing that at the end of every quarter - they can do better.
I’ve always said I hate the iso pull-ups from the wing, especially the right. And he’s 100% leaned on it too hard this season for sure. I also think he was kind of just letting everyone else get comfortable in the offense, and was just picking his spots to try to take over.
Now that everyone seems comfortable, I’d be shocked if he doesn’t have an absolute monster last 50 games+ playoffs.
The stuff he’s made leaps with this season is playoff basketball juice. Post ups, mid range, iso, he’s amongst the most efficient in basketball in all three of them. And that’s while sharing the floor with bench crews a ton. In the playoffs when he’s out there with KP most of the time? Nah, lights out for other defenses.
It was interesting to me that JM went with Pritchard down the stretch over Jrue, but I assume it was a combination of Jrue being fatigued and perhaps a little sore/hurt from the injury that kept him out the last week or so. Pritchard did just fine, it seems to me, but a 100% healthy Jrue might have made a difference on the defensive end. I have no problem with the decision and the loss was fine under the circumstances.
The bolded: exactly. Having a player who is elite in those zones is the key to playoff basketball, and sets the team up for all the other stuff that everyone wants (open 3s, rim looks). It's been the biggest thing missing from the last few good Celtics' teams, including the Finals one.
The Celtics now have Tatum, who is monstrous there, one guy who is great against mismatches (KP), and another who can go to work in the mid-post on spaced-out floors (JB).
I’m enjoying the hell out of this regular season, but I’m salivating for the playoff run that I think we’re going to see from the team.
Early in the game, JT got the ball w :10 on the clock after the initial set broke down. He's shaking and baking as his defender isn't biting so I can tell the step-back 3 is the last resort and it's coming! All I can think about is this fuckin board. Then as the defender closes out hard....Jason fires the ball off Jrue's(?) feet in the corner for the turnover.
It was at that moment when my wife asked me why I then blurted out "Hope you're happy SoSH"
It was at that moment when my wife asked me why I then blurted out "Hope you're happy SoSH"
I thought you were about to describe the identical other play where he dished to Horford on the wing for an open 3 as a sign of his growth. I'll take the three points out of those two possessions.Early in the game, JT got the ball w :10 on the clock after the initial set broke down. He's shaking and baking as his defender isn't biting so I can tell the step-back 3 is the last resort and it's coming! All I can think about is this fuckin board. Then as the defender closes out hard....Jason fires the ball off Jrue's(?) feet in the corner for the turnover.
It was at that moment when my wife asked me why I then blurted out "Hope you're happy SoSH"
I'm not sure it was so much growth as it was excellent scouting and close out defense that prevented him from getting the shot off as that was clearly his next attempts once dribble penetration was stopped. After the close out the only thing left is the last second pass into a someone else's shot clock violation.
Yeah, he might have the best first step in the league. Just blasts by everyone. Interestingly, the only defender that seemed to give him trouble was Tatum who is long/quick enough to play back while still getting a hand in his face if he pulls up.
he made a great pass to an open shooter for a three that they made and this is the take? he wasn't even being closed out on the one I'm thinking of he just had the look like he was about to lazily jack it
I am 190% convinced this topic is a thing in this forum precisely because people are permitted to use that phrase.
the reality is Tatum's stroke is off, sharing the ball for an Open 3 is growth
When I see JT get serious about one on one defending against great players, it reminds me that he has been doing just that so many times in his skills training work for the past dozen years. In his trainer’s videos, he would go one on one against players as different as Embiid and Clarkson, one right after another. Tatum looked very confident he could do pretty well defending SGA, who is an incredible talent
OKC smartly exploited the PP/JWill matchup, along with a couple of clutch Chet threes, along with a few big plays from SGA to hang on for the win. OKC could be a Finals opponent for the Cs at least once this decade, although probably not this year.
OKC smartly exploited the PP/JWill matchup, along with a couple of clutch Chet threes, along with a few big plays from SGA to hang on for the win. OKC could be a Finals opponent for the Cs at least once this decade, although probably not this year.
Exactly. When people see how Tatum defensed SGA when we needed him to compared to Jrue and Derrick while still carrying the offensive load hopefully they realize just how many levels he is above anyone on this team and in that handful at the top of the league.
It reminds me of LeBron over the past decade saving himself on the defensive end until the 4Q of close games when he doubles up as his teams lockdown perimeter defender.
He did a lot better with the "guys, I got this" defense on the other teams star than Kyrie did vs Giannis, that's for sure!
Are we sure that Jrue is a part of this teams future plans? He seems like he'd be a luxury at his ages 34-36 price tag with nearly all of his value on the floor being replaceable for a small fraction of that cost now that Derrick has made a leap.
What do we need to replace his production now that Jrue has very little offensive role? I'm thinking a 2008 Rondo-type on a rookie deal to split minutes w Pritchard or another cheap guy to fill tbat role of hustling energy guy....someone who only needs to defend and if he can knock down open 3's it's a bonus. You'd need this to be a mature kid, not necessarily someone who needs a skillset of anything except perimeter and switching defense plus ability to hit an open three.
What if this player was already an elite perimeter defender, unselfish, while capable of hitting open threes.....and brought along his Dad on a veteran min contract to play his final year before the Vegas expansion team takes the floor?
It's a slow day and I woke up thinking it would be kinda ridiculous to pay Jrue the money necessary to keep him long term in his diminished role. Bronny and Bron in '24-'25!
Roast away!
What do we need to replace his production now that Jrue has very little offensive role? I'm thinking a 2008 Rondo-type on a rookie deal to split minutes w Pritchard or another cheap guy to fill tbat role of hustling energy guy....someone who only needs to defend and if he can knock down open 3's it's a bonus. You'd need this to be a mature kid, not necessarily someone who needs a skillset of anything except perimeter and switching defense plus ability to hit an open three.
What if this player was already an elite perimeter defender, unselfish, while capable of hitting open threes.....and brought along his Dad on a veteran min contract to play his final year before the Vegas expansion team takes the floor?
It's a slow day and I woke up thinking it would be kinda ridiculous to pay Jrue the money necessary to keep him long term in his diminished role. Bronny and Bron in '24-'25!
Roast away!
His services are going to be competitive to obtain, but Caruso is really a great hedge against Holiday leaving/not paying him, especially with a contract running through the end of next year.
Holiday has had the most difficult transition of anyone. He's had to sacrifice the most and find ways to play alongside the this group as the fifth option. He's critical to the Celtics success this year, but I am of the mindset that Jrue on a 100/3 deal or something in that ballpark isn't the best use of money. If he's transitioning to the Horford stage of his career and looking to sacrifice money for a preferred championship destination, that changes the equation.
Holiday has had the most difficult transition of anyone. He's had to sacrifice the most and find ways to play alongside the this group as the fifth option. He's critical to the Celtics success this year, but I am of the mindset that Jrue on a 100/3 deal or something in that ballpark isn't the best use of money. If he's transitioning to the Horford stage of his career and looking to sacrifice money for a preferred championship destination, that changes the equation.
I may be way off but I have to believe that there was the parameters of a contract worked out with Holiday before the trade was made. Holiday seems to value stability so I wouldn't be surprised if it's less money than he'd get on the open market.
If this team goes out there and wins the title this year. I imagine Wyc and Pags will want to keep the group together for at least another year...salary be damned.
If this team goes out there and wins the title this year. I imagine Wyc and Pags will want to keep the group together for at least another year...salary be damned.
It’s not an easy thing for me to evaluate, for sure, but I haven’t had the impression that Jrue has been as dominant on defense as I was expecting. He’s tackled some big matchups, and done well with them - so that I didn’t expect, but haven’t quite seen the lock down perimeter defense I thought we’d see. Not saying he’s been bad at all, I just had really high expectations given his reputation. If he’s on the Marcus Smart defensive trajectory, he becomes a significant luxury. Not my money, so if they want to pay him, I wouldn’t complain one bit. But, if we let DWhite go or some other cost cutting move to pay big money to Jrue I will be upset.
Holiday has been better defensively than even I expected. He will take some chances every now and then, but he’s incredible on that end. I’d be shocked if they don’t extend him, probably a pretty team friendly deal too.
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It's funny, I was just starting to think that Jrue had settled into a bit of a groove after an initial adjustment period. Earlier in the year, I thought he was taking some questionable shots as he tried to figure out his place in the offense. It seems like he's more comfortable now with where those shots are going to come from and I haven't seen him forcing as much.
Defensively, I think he's probably not our best option against quick guards, but that's OK, because he plays next to Derrick White. His defensive value lies in his positioning, versatility, and fantastic hands, and as such, I'm OK betting on him to age well defensively.
The bigger question for me is if he's going to be OK as the fifth option long term, but there's been zero indication he's unhappy with his role. Now, if he continues to sit in crunch time so Payton Pritchard can play, that will change, but I don't think anyone believes that will be a regular thing.
Defensively, I think he's probably not our best option against quick guards, but that's OK, because he plays next to Derrick White. His defensive value lies in his positioning, versatility, and fantastic hands, and as such, I'm OK betting on him to age well defensively.
The bigger question for me is if he's going to be OK as the fifth option long term, but there's been zero indication he's unhappy with his role. Now, if he continues to sit in crunch time so Payton Pritchard can play, that will change, but I don't think anyone believes that will be a regular thing.
The Cs kind of have to sign Jrue to an extension don't they because of the salary cap? First and foremost, they can't let that salary slot walk out the door for nothing. Also, because they can't aggregate contracts starting next year, they aren't going to be able to get a player of Jrue's caliber again unless they have his salary slot?
(Maybe I am wrong about this but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.)
As for defense, I think Jrue has been playing great notwithstanding the OKC game. Maybe Jrue isn't the best guy to defend shiftier guards like SGA or Maxey (etc.) but fortunately, the Cs have at least three other options to do that and likely at a high level. The great thing is that Jrue can pretty much guard everyone on the floor.
Also, I think Jrue's defense will be much more impactful in a playoff series than in single games. I keep thinking back to how he wore down Booker and Paul by picking them up full court and really making them work for every basket. Plus that strip of Paul in G6
(Maybe I am wrong about this but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.)
As for defense, I think Jrue has been playing great notwithstanding the OKC game. Maybe Jrue isn't the best guy to defend shiftier guards like SGA or Maxey (etc.) but fortunately, the Cs have at least three other options to do that and likely at a high level. The great thing is that Jrue can pretty much guard everyone on the floor.
Also, I think Jrue's defense will be much more impactful in a playoff series than in single games. I keep thinking back to how he wore down Booker and Paul by picking them up full court and really making them work for every basket. Plus that strip of Paul in G6
My 2 cents: Jrue's Agent/Brad already worked out the parameters of an extension when the deal went down in Oct. I'd guess a KP-type discounted extension was verbally agreed to. We'll know by April. Have to keep Jrue's salary slot & move him next year if it's not working.
This is what was said at the time:
Brad Stevens made clear the intention is for this to be a long-term partnership with the five-time All-Defensive Team selection.
"It seems, talking to people on both sides, that it's very much the plan," said Himmelsbach. "He has to wait six months to sign an extension, so I think April 2 is the exact day he would be eligible for one, but I would suspect them to figure something out; this isn't a Jrue Holiday rental."
The Celtics have already shown they're willing to go over the second apron, and owner Wyc Grousbeck said at Holiday's introductory press conference, "I look at the next six years as a real opportunity for us."
https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/news/the-latest-on-a-potential-celtics-extension-with-jrue-holiday
This is what was said at the time:
Brad Stevens made clear the intention is for this to be a long-term partnership with the five-time All-Defensive Team selection.
"It seems, talking to people on both sides, that it's very much the plan," said Himmelsbach. "He has to wait six months to sign an extension, so I think April 2 is the exact day he would be eligible for one, but I would suspect them to figure something out; this isn't a Jrue Holiday rental."
The Celtics have already shown they're willing to go over the second apron, and owner Wyc Grousbeck said at Holiday's introductory press conference, "I look at the next six years as a real opportunity for us."
https://www.si.com/nba/celtics/news/the-latest-on-a-potential-celtics-extension-with-jrue-holiday
Lots of Brad-speak, wouldn't expect a deal at the trade deadline, sounds pleased up & down the roster
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvy_BIXGcGk
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvy_BIXGcGk
That's my guess as well---it was a huge gamble to give up what they did unless they have some confidence what an extension will take.