Celtics Rotation and Trade Needs Conversation

TomRicardo

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Currently the Celtics have the best starting 5 in the NBA. Hauser and Al have solidified themselves into the rotation.

Peyton has been struggling a bit with his shot but has not been terrible for the eighth man on the bench though the Celtics could definitely use an upgrade on first guard off the bench.

Kornet is probably a little weak for the 3rd Center and with Al the Celtics are probably asking more from Kornet then they should.


SO for now

KP
Tatum
Brown
White
Holiday

Al
Hauser

(Pritchard)
(Kornet)
 

lovegtm

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I'm happy to upgrade Kornet, but is he weak for a 3rd center? 3rd center is generally a really really weak position leaguewide, for obvious reasons.
 

Ed Hillel

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Kornet has looked honestly like a pretty good rotation guy this season and I’d be in no rush to move on from him unless there’s a clear upgrade. Obviously, his play is worth monitoring, but I think he’s been a nice fit. I’m more concerned about the PG position at this point, and they could probably use another wing.
 

ifmanis5

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Kornet has looked honestly like a pretty good rotation guy this season and I’d be in no rush to move on from him unless there’s a clear upgrade. Obviously, his play is worth monitoring, but I think he’s been a nice fit. I’m more concerned about the PG position at this point, and they could probably use another wing.
Agreed here. I've never been a Pritch guy and he hasn't taken any kind of big leap in his career yet. I'd love to upgrade that position the most.
 

Ed Hillel

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Agreed here. I've never been a Pritch guy and he hasn't taken any kind of big leap in his career yet. I'd love to upgrade that position the most.
The biggest problem with Pritchard is his defense is almost never going to be playoff-caliber, so what’s the point? Even if he gets his shot back and distributes the ball better, he’s such a negative on the other end he’ll get hunted by smart coaching and need to come out. I think they signed Pritchard as a trade asset, though, so probably the play here is to showcase him and get his value as high as possible to swap for a more reliable depth guy in the playoffs. Plus he can eat some minutes and keep guys fresh for the second half/playoffs.
 

benhogan

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The biggest problem with Pritchard is his defense is almost never going to be playoff-caliber, so what’s the point? Even if he gets his shot back and distributes the ball better, he’s such a negative on the other end he’ll get hunted by smart coaching and need to come out. I think they signed Pritchard as a trade asset, though, so probably the play here is to showcase him and get his value as high as possible to swap for a more reliable depth guy in the playoffs. Plus he can eat some minutes and keep guys fresh for the second half/playoffs.
The big question is, at what round in the playoffs do you start getting nervous he could cost you the series? Given how good everyone else looks it’s the eastern conference finals at the earliest. And at that point you can get away with barely playing him.
 

DavidTai

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Honestly, I'd try to add someone who can double as both big and wing, or wing and ball-handler, and try to cover at least two needs at once, since it doesn't really seem worth trading assets unless it's for someone who can actually fill a playoff rotation spot (like Derrick White did), and we don't need to keep adding players for non-roles in a playoff.

I'm pretty sure any big better than Kornet will cost much, much more than we want to pay, and if we just want a backup big for down the stretch, just sign one in the buyout market, or promote Queta, plus I think in the playoffs it'd be effectively an Porzingis/Horford tandem at center and no playing time at ALL for the third center.

At this moment in time, I'd spend as much coaching resources as I can getting Banton a three-point shot and consistency, cuz he seems like the best on-roster solution we have for a lot of needs. Have him shadow Derrick White or something.
 

BigSoxFan

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I was hoping Lamar Stevens would have been more of a factor. Still time but doesn’t look to be on Joe’s radar at the moment.
 

mcpickl

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They're going to need one more guy that is better, or at least more multi-faceted, than Hauser et al.

It probably doesn't matter much what position that guy plays, he'd be most needed for injury insurance in case one of the top 6 isn't available in the playoffs. I'd lean a ballhandler who can defend, but wouldn't be very picky about it.

It's just going to be really hard to find that guy, the Celtics have no salary to trade and aren't eligible to sign expensive guys that get bought out. They're probably looking guys who can fit in the Grant TPE
 

Saints Rest

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Honestly, I'd try to add someone who can double as both big and wing, or wing and ball-handler, and try to cover at least two needs at once, since it doesn't really seem worth trading assets unless it's for someone who can actually fill a playoff rotation spot (like Derrick White did), and we don't need to keep adding players for non-roles in a playoff.

I'm pretty sure any big better than Kornet will cost much, much more than we want to pay, and if we just want a backup big for down the stretch, just sign one in the buyout market, or promote Queta, plus I think in the playoffs it'd be effectively an Porzingis/Horford tandem at center and no playing time at ALL for the third center.

At this moment in time, I'd spend as much coaching resources as I can getting Banton a three-point shot and consistency, cuz he seems like the best on-roster solution we have for a lot of needs. Have him shadow Derrick White or something.
The bolded is how I'm thinking. Looking at it in more traditional roles simply to give bit more shading to Ball-handler/Wing/Big, we really have players who fill these roles:
  • White, Jrue -- both are 1/2s.
  • Brown -- can really go 2, 3, or 4.
  • Tatum -- mostly 3, 4, but can do 2.
  • Horford, KP -- both are 4/5s.
  • Hauser -- 3
  • Pritchard -- 1
  • Kornet -- 5.
Sorted by position:
  1. White, Jrue, Pritchard
  2. White, Jrue, Brown, (Tatum)
  3. Brown, Tatum, Hauser
  4. Tatum, Brown, Horford, KP
  5. Horford, KP, Kornet
So I'd like to see another 1/2, 2/3, or 3/4.
 

slamminsammya

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The idea that third center needs an upgrade is to me kinda nuts. Here are some 3rd bigs from good teams:

Milwaukee - Robin Lopez 2mpg
Philly - Mo Bamba 2mpg
Miami - Thomas Bryant 12mpg
Denver - Jay Huff (never even heard of him)
Dallas - Dwight Powell / Maxi Kleber (unclear which counts as third)
Golden State - Dario Saric

I don't think you are doing much better than Luke Kornet, and he's a really nice fit for the other talent on the roster.
 

amlothi

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I'd like the team to stay patient and wait to see how the season unfolds. Obviously, we all hope the team stays healthy. The reality is that injuries can and do crop up. An injury to a key player could inform their decision on how best to use limited resources and what is the biggest need.

I also think more time will further illuminate the ability of bench players already on the team to contribute or not.

Personally, any discussion of trade needs at this point tempts the fates a bit much for my superstitious self.
 

Royal Reader

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The idea that third center needs an upgrade is to me kinda nuts. Here are some 3rd bigs from good teams:

Milwaukee - Robin Lopez 2mpg
Philly - Mo Bamba 2mpg
Miami - Thomas Bryant 12mpg
Denver - Jay Huff (never even heard of him)
Dallas - Dwight Powell / Maxi Kleber (unclear which counts as third)
Golden State - Dario Saric

I don't think you are doing much better than Luke Kornet, and he's a really nice fit for the other talent on the roster.
Idk. If Jokic or Embiid go down, those teams are fucked anyway. If Brook Lopez is out, Milwaukee's more likely to put Giannis at C if the game really matters.

The Celtics are starting a 7'2" guy with a long injury history, backed up by a 37 year old, with talent all over the rest of the roster. It feels like the sweet spot where Porzingis missing a series could be mitigated enough to save the season, and feels fairly likely to happen.

Now who'd be available and how much better they'd be, I'm not sure.
 

lars10

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They're going to need one more guy that is better, or at least more multi-faceted, than Hauser et al.

It probably doesn't matter much what position that guy plays, he'd be most needed for injury insurance in case one of the top 6 isn't available in the playoffs. I'd lean a ballhandler who can defend, but wouldn't be very picky about it.

It's just going to be really hard to find that guy, the Celtics have no salary to trade and aren't eligible to sign expensive guys that get bought out. They're probably looking guys who can fit in the Grant TPE
I'd be interested to know how many teams have someone better than Hauser as their 7th best player... it there an easy way to filter out stats to figure that out? Also not sure how to go about figuring out the 7th to 8th best players on other teams.. other than I guess by minutes?
 

lexrageorge

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The biggest problem with Pritchard is his defense is almost never going to be playoff-caliber, so what’s the point? Even if he gets his shot back and distributes the ball better, he’s such a negative on the other end he’ll get hunted by smart coaching and need to come out. I think they signed Pritchard as a trade asset, though, so probably the play here is to showcase him and get his value as high as possible to swap for a more reliable depth guy in the playoffs. Plus he can eat some minutes and keep guys fresh for the second half/playoffs.
Miami had some crappy defenders playing minutes in the ECF and they did OK.
 

mcpickl

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I'd be interested to know how many teams have someone better than Hauser as their 7th best player... it there an easy way to filter out stats to figure that out? Also not sure how to go about figuring out the 7th to 8th best players on other teams.. other than I guess by minutes?
It's not so much about Hauser, as it is about having injury insurance.

When fully healthy, in gotta have it playoff games the top six will play almost all of the minutes with Hauser probably getting a few each half. Hauser is just fine as a 7th man in that case.

But if one of those top six are unavailable, even if the other five average 40 minutes a game, that leaves another 40 to be filled. So not only will the guys below Hauser on the depth chart have to get minutes, they will also have some of those minutes be with Hauser on the floor at the same time. I think that'll just be too attackable defensively, and likely too limited creatively on offense(depending on which of the top six would be out in that scenario)

None of this matters until the playoffs, so they have plenty of time, but I just believe they need one more legit playoff rotation guy.
 

the moops

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I'm happy to upgrade Kornet, but is he weak for a 3rd center? 3rd center is generally a really really weak position leaguewide, for obvious reasons.
Agreed. Third centers in this league are the likes of Tristan Thompson, Boban, and Cody Zeller, etc.

The only clear best third centers I can find are Naz Reid, and maybe Maxi Kleber?
 

Euclis20

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Agreed. Third centers in this league are the likes of Tristan Thompson, Boban, and Cody Zeller, etc.

The only clear best third centers I can find are Naz Reid, and maybe Maxi Kleber?
Kornet is a perfectly reasonable 3rd center, but the Celtics have the incentive to invest more into that position than most teams for two reasons:

-Their 1st center has a long history of getting hurt and missing time, and their 2nd center is 37. It's pretty reasonable to think that we'll need more from Kornet than others will need from the players above.
-The rest of the roster is stacked, this is the clearest place for improvement.

The problem is that it's 100% an insurance policy that you don't hope to use. No matter who the 3rd center is, they won't get any real playing time in the playoffs if KP/Horford are available, outside of foul trouble. If we upgrade the Pritchard/Hauser spots, their replacements should see actual game time when it matters.
 

lovegtm

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Kornet is a perfectly reasonable 3rd center, but the Celtics have the incentive to invest more into that position than most teams for two reasons:

-Their 1st center has a long history of getting hurt and missing time, and their 2nd center is 37. It's pretty reasonable to think that we'll need more from Kornet than others will need from the players above.
-The rest of the roster is stacked, this is the clearest place for improvement.

The problem is that it's 100% an insurance policy that you don't hope to use. No matter who the 3rd center is, they won't get any real playing time in the playoffs if KP/Horford are available, outside of foul trouble. If we upgrade the Pritchard/Hauser spots, their replacements should see actual game time when it matters.
Who would be available for any sort of reasonable price that would upgrade the Hauser spot? For salary matching, it would basically have to be someone on a rookie contract or an incredible value deal, and those guys cost multiple 1sts when they're even available.
 

Saints Rest

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Who would be available for any sort of reasonable price that would upgrade the Hauser spot? For salary matching, it would basically have to be someone on a rookie contract or an incredible value deal, and those guys cost multiple 1sts when they're even available.
I think the search begins with players who fit inside the $6.2M TPE from the Granite trade.
 

lovegtm

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I think the search begins with players who fit inside the $6.2M TPE from the Granite trade.
That's going to be a very, very short search in that case. The only upgrades on Hauser who fit in that will be late 1st round or 2nd picks on their first contract, who are also better than Hauser.

Those guys would be VERY expensive in draft assets to acquire. I won't list them out, since they're so unrealistic as targets, but it's guys like Franz Wagner (actually doesn't even fit in the TPE) and Tyrese Maxey.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I agree with the above—it’s more about depth for injuries than upgrades.

Theis would have been a nice fit—but surely saw more minutes available in LA

a defensive wing is more depth—but Brissett/Stevens likely better than what’s out there unless Danny green (contrary to recent evidence) has some tread left.

it almost doesn’t matter what position they add as a depth rotation guy—with Jrue’s ability to play up anything other than a PP sized small would fill the potential need
 

the moops

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That's going to be a very, very short search in that case. The only upgrades on Hauser who fit in that will be late 1st round or 2nd picks on their first contract, who are also better than Hauser.

Those guys would be VERY expensive in draft assets to acquire. I won't list them out, since they're so unrealistic as targets, but it's guys like Franz Wagner (actually doesn't even fit in the TPE) and Tyrese Maxey.
I love Hauser, but it is nuts to think that the only guys at that salary that are upgrades over him are the likes of Maxey and Wagner. The list is short as you said, but that's not because there aren't a decent amount of guys, it's more the acqusition cost and likelihood of being traded
 

DavidTai

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I love Hauser, but it is nuts to think that the only guys at that salary that are upgrades over him are the likes of Maxey and Wagner. The list is short as you said, but that's not because there aren't a decent amount of guys, it's more the acqusition cost and likelihood of being traded
At that point it'd be easier to find a PG or Big that fits in the TPE because any wing that's that kind of upgrade over Hauser is gonna be really expensive. Seems like you might be able to upgrade over PP or Kornet, but eh... I'd think we're more likely to just sign Blake Griffin as the "big" backup.
 

leetinsley38

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I’m with the 3rd center crew. Yes it’s ridiculous depth compared to every other roster. But the C’s are most vulnerable to Milwaukee (Giannis), Sixers (Embiid) and Denver (Jokic) in the event of injury to KP or Al (both not reliable due to health and age) and all of a sudden you have Kornet trying to guard them for 20-25 minutes. It would definitely be a right before the deadline, short term move but IMO it’s worth spending some future assets if you can find a short term option.
 

luckiestman

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We are not upgrading Hauser without something of real value going out. We may upgrade Kornet but that guy has been fine. We need like a big veteran that can D up wings if we can get that.
 

the moops

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I’m with the 3rd center crew. Yes it’s ridiculous depth compared to every other roster. But the C’s are most vulnerable to Milwaukee (Giannis), Sixers (Embiid) and Denver (Jokic) in the event of injury to KP or Al (both not reliable due to health and age) and all of a sudden you have Kornet trying to guard them for 20-25 minutes. It would definitely be a right before the deadline, short term move but IMO it’s worth spending some future assets if you can find a short term option.
If both Porzingis and Horford are down, our season is toast and some available 3rd string center isn't making the differemce. And if one of Porzingis or Horford are down, the other will be playing 32+ minutes so we only need the other guy for 16 minutes, not the 20-25
 

DavidTai

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If both Porzingis and Horford are down, our season is toast and some available 3rd string center isn't making the differemce. And if one of Porzingis or Horford are down, the other will be playing 32+ minutes so we only need the other guy for 16 minutes, not the 20-25
Yeah, your best bet for this would be finding a wing that can guard bigs for 16 minutes. Not ideal, since wings are probably the most expensive thing to acquire, but it seems like we have two PGs who can guard bigs, so they may just go smallball and make Tatum the center instead and force Giannis, Embiid, and Jokic to suck wind keeping up.
 

chilidawg

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Yeah, your best bet for this would be finding a wing that can guard bigs for 16 minutes. Not ideal, since wings are probably the most expensive thing to acquire, but it seems like we have two PGs who can guard bigs, so they may just go smallball and make Tatum the center instead and force Giannis, Embiid, and Jokic to suck wind keeping up.
Isn't that what Brissett and Stevens are?
 

lovegtm

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I love Hauser, but it is nuts to think that the only guys at that salary that are upgrades over him are the likes of Maxey and Wagner. The list is short as you said, but that's not because there aren't a decent amount of guys, it's more the acqusition cost and likelihood of being traded
I mean, look through the names, but it's really hard to find anyone at that salary who's an upgrade on Hauser and isn't on a low 1st round rookie deal, or is a 2nd rounder who really popped.

Teams rarely trade those guys, and you need to send significant draft capital to interest them.

I'm pretty surprised that this is even a controversial point. I'm not saying Hauser is amazing, just that $6.2M is very, very little salary to work with.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think it all kind of depends. Losing anyone in the top 6 for any length of time would be a serious blow.

Outside of that, the best tool for adding a player would be the Grant Williams TPE ($6.2M), so, salary-wise we are looking in the shallow end of the pool.
 

benhogan

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I'm not sure why Brad would be using Assets to acquire a WING?

The Celtics have 2 All-NBA WINGs

+ 2 cusp All-Star Guards that can play up to WING

+ Hauser, who is basically Kyle Korver but with better defense.

Followed by situational WINGS that can play D or shoot in Brissett, Stevens, Svi Myk

A good, bench WING would hate playing for Boston since they would play so little. Which is why Grant was happy to move on.

Brad just needs to scour the KP/Al insurance market, while CJM gives Kornet consistent bench reps to see if he can be that player.
 

OnWisc

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Kornet is a perfectly reasonable 3rd center, but the Celtics have the incentive to invest more into that position than most teams for two reasons:

-Their 1st center has a long history of getting hurt and missing time, and their 2nd center is 37. It's pretty reasonable to think that we'll need more from Kornet than others will need from the players above.
I’m not as knowledgeable as most (all) of those here, but this makes sense to me. Additionally seems that while Porzingis is more of a binomial outcome in that either he’s either healthy/effective or injured/out, at 37, Horford’s effectiveness is going to fluctuate with how many minutes he’s forced to play. Maybe not over a game, but if KP misses a series and Al plays starter minutes, he may be far less effective than in his current role. Especially at the end of a series against Embiid/Giannis/Jokic. If Al goes down I think KP can just eat up the minutes. Not sure it’s the same the other way.
 

PJ Martinez

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The trade target I keep wondering about is Alex Caruso. There's a decent chance that he becomes available, and, if I'm not mistaken, the C's could make it work salary-wise by sending Pritchard and a few end of the bench guys. He's signed at low money through next season. He's limited offensively, but he is an elite defender who knows his role and hits open threes at a respectable rate; there'd be no drop-off defensively when he subs in for Holiday or White, and, when necessary, you could play all three together, which would be hell on opposing ballhandlers. There's also the keep-away factor to consider: if the Celtics don't trade for him, he maybe ends up on the Sixers or the Bucks, teams he could help a lot. That's not enough reason to trade for him on its own, but it's not nothing.

Chicago will want a first-round pick, and they might ask for it to be a few years out, or want a pick-swap, too, or whatever. And they may get it, given the likely competition for his services. To my mind, the main reason not to trade for him is if you want to hold onto those assets for someone else, either this season or next. But him, Horford, and Hauser could be a great 6-7-8.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The trade target I keep wondering about is Alex Caruso. There's a decent chance that he becomes available, and, if I'm not mistaken, the C's could make it work salary-wise by sending Pritchard and a few end of the bench guys. He's signed at low money through next season. He's limited offensively, but he is an elite defender who knows his role and hits open threes at a respectable rate; there'd be no drop-off defensively when he subs in for Holiday or White, and, when necessary, you could play all three together, which would be hell on opposing ballhandlers. There's also the keep-away factor to consider: if the Celtics don't trade for him, he maybe ends up on the Sixers or the Bucks, teams he could help a lot. That's not enough reason to trade for him on its own, but it's not nothing.

Chicago will want a first-round pick, and they might ask for it to be a few years out, or want a pick-swap, too, or whatever. And they may get it, given the likely competition for his services. To my mind, the main reason not to trade for him is if you want to hold onto those assets for someone else, either this season or next. But him, Horford, and Hauser could be a great 6-7-8.
I put this in the top GM thread, where we were discussing CHI's assets, but CHI is looking for a "Jrue Holiday-type" of return for Caruso since he has a great numbers and is on a great contract. Caruso would make a lot of teams better.

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/top-nba-gms-in-2023.40999/page-2#post-5845305
 

PJ Martinez

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Ah, missed that — good discussion of it there. Didn't realize Pritchard's contract has a poison pill provision.
 

benhogan

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I put this in the top GM thread, where we were discussing CHI's assets, but CHI is looking for a "Jrue Holiday-type" of return for Caruso since he has a great numbers and is on a great contract. Caruso would make a lot of teams better.

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/top-nba-gms-in-2023.40999/page-2#post-5845305
Yea, Jrue cost isn't out of line

The spread between Caruso & Smart now is a lot closer than it was a few years ago. Smart yielded 2 Firsts and a good rotational player in Tre Jones.

In a salary-capped market, The Bald Mamba (at half the price of Marcus) will attract many buyers.

BUT who knows what Chicago will do, not everyone is as clever as Brad/Zarren

Ah, missed that — good discussion of it there. Didn't realize Pritchard's contract has a poison pill provision.
PP's salary goes from $4MM this year to $6.7MM next season. That doesn't feel all that poisonous.

If teams view PP as a rotational player, like the Celtics clearly do, the 4yrs/$30MM extension is dirt cheap. Especially to a team in full rebuild, with CAP bumps coming the next few seasons.

I'd view Pritchard as an asset in any deal as opposed to the salary filler attached to him in a fake trade.
 

lovegtm

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PP's salary goes from $4MM this year to $6.7MM next season. That doesn't feel all that poisonous.
"Poison pill" is a technical term. It means that the Cs would get to count his salary as $4M outgoing, while the Bulls would count it as $7.5M incoming, for salary matching purposes. This is because he'd be traded after signing an rookie extension, but before it kicked in.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Ah, missed that — good discussion of it there. Didn't realize Pritchard's contract has a poison pill provision.
It's not that PP's contract has a poison pill. All rookie scale extensions are governed by a provision that sometimes make it more difficult to trade the player. The rule, specifically, is this: "While rookie-scale extensions don’t include a trade restriction, they come with a poison pill. If Garland were traded, the Cavaliers would be credited with sending out his current salary for 2022-23 ($8.9 million), but an incoming team would need to account for his average salary over the life of the entire contract ($33.9 million). " So BOS would be sending out PP's $4+M salary (this year) but the incoming team would be counted as getting $7.5M. Obviously not that big of a deal with PP but with some other rookie contracts, that's a huge deal.

https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/who-can-be-traded-and-when-after-an-extension/
 

DavidTai

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I'm not sure why Brad would be using Assets to acquire a WING
I wouldn't say a wing per se. More that finding a big wing would fit the team better in terms of versatility... if one big goes down, the big wing (like Grant) would just soak up the backup center moments.

Danilo Galinari last year pre-injury would probably have fit both wing and small 5.

That said, I think the most likely solution to a backup big is gonna be Griffin, so they might as well sit tight.
 

the moops

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"Poison pill" is a technical term. It means that the Cs would get to count his salary as $4M outgoing, while the Bulls would count it as $7.5M incoming, for salary matching purposes. This is because he'd be traded after signing an rookie extension, but before it kicked in.
I am seeing it as 6.8 million outgoing, not 7.5. Not sure that difference really matters all that much though
 

lovegtm

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I am seeing it as 6.8 million outgoing, not 7.5. Not sure that difference really matters all that much though
I assumed it was the AAV of his next deal, but it could be all 5 years together, which would be 6.8, yes.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Devizier

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SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
19,606
Somewhere
The trade target I keep wondering about is Alex Caruso.
His salary is high, which means that the Celtics would have to package Pritchard with some of their recently signed guys. Then they’d have to manage the poison pill provision. Chicago would be taking a 3 or even 4 for one with some draft pick sweetener. I think they’ll get better offers elsewhere.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
44,231
Here
Miami had some crappy defenders playing minutes in the ECF and they did OK.
Well, if you tell me that Pritchard is going to play out of his mind for a once-in-a-career run as Gabe Vincent did in the 2023 playoffs, I'd feel better about it. I just wouldn't want to rely on it.