Super Nomario said:
The practice thing is something I think most have overlooked. If this holds, as you said, he's back at the facility in mid-October. That's not good for Brady or Garoppolo or the Patriots.
#DFG: Canceling the Noise
- Thread starter nattysez
- Start date
The practice thing is something I think most have overlooked. If this holds, as you said, he's back at the facility in mid-October. That's not good for Brady or Garoppolo or the Patriots.
These are all really good points.Trlicek's Whip said:
I don't actually care about the legacy points that much. I think that this is one place where the CHB has it right. Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love.
It will be easier for haters to pile on if Tom has a 4-gamer on his resume, but dickheads are going to denigrate Tom no matter what.
I addressed that because I think it's part of the overall mix and I think some do not want Tom to accept any penalty in light of his legacy and what that would do to it.
But my biggest points are around controlling the outcome and taking it out of the hands of a Judge who is really a complete wild card in my eyes.
I'm going to be the sole voice of support for Theo here.
First, it's a bit of fantasy to believe that the judge will someone completely exonerate Brady of all wrongdoing and instead pin the entire mess on Goodell. Berman's job is not to uncover all the facts regarding the footballs; his job is determine whether the NFL followed proper procedures per the CBA and labor law and arbitration standards. So, realistically the best anyone can realistically hope for is that Berman vacates the suspension entirely, rips Goodell a new one, and creates a legal argument that will uphold upon appeal. Do we really want to bet on that? Does Brady?
Second, getting the NFL to say "Brady was not culpable" is a thing. Granted, the "Brady lied and cheated" bell cannot be unrung among the low information group of football fans and mediots. Felger, Mazz, CHB will clamor that Brady and Belichick and the Patriots all got off easy, legacy is tainted, et al. But fortunately, most HoF voters have slightly higher IQ's than those guys. And, when Brady's HoF candidacy is up for consideration, it would benefit Brady to have folks saying "Maybe something happened, but the NFL botched it so bad that we'll never really know, and the NFL essentially absolved him of guilt in the settlement" as opposed to "Brady was suspended once for cheating, in the AFCCG no less; does he really belong in the Hall?". I still think the Hall is a lock for Brady, but he does have a self interest in moving that discussion needle slightly to the right.
Gasper's rationales for settlement are indeed weak. His raising of Richie Incognito's cell phone as previously setting a precedent for Brady is absolutely ludicrous. Most of the local media have been out to get Brady from day one for reasons that will never be understood among those of us with IQ's above 70. And, yes, a settlement means most of us will be unhappy. But it's not entirely the worst strategy from a legal standpoint, especially given the uncertainties with respect to the outcome of the court case.
First, it's a bit of fantasy to believe that the judge will someone completely exonerate Brady of all wrongdoing and instead pin the entire mess on Goodell. Berman's job is not to uncover all the facts regarding the footballs; his job is determine whether the NFL followed proper procedures per the CBA and labor law and arbitration standards. So, realistically the best anyone can realistically hope for is that Berman vacates the suspension entirely, rips Goodell a new one, and creates a legal argument that will uphold upon appeal. Do we really want to bet on that? Does Brady?
Second, getting the NFL to say "Brady was not culpable" is a thing. Granted, the "Brady lied and cheated" bell cannot be unrung among the low information group of football fans and mediots. Felger, Mazz, CHB will clamor that Brady and Belichick and the Patriots all got off easy, legacy is tainted, et al. But fortunately, most HoF voters have slightly higher IQ's than those guys. And, when Brady's HoF candidacy is up for consideration, it would benefit Brady to have folks saying "Maybe something happened, but the NFL botched it so bad that we'll never really know, and the NFL essentially absolved him of guilt in the settlement" as opposed to "Brady was suspended once for cheating, in the AFCCG no less; does he really belong in the Hall?". I still think the Hall is a lock for Brady, but he does have a self interest in moving that discussion needle slightly to the right.
Gasper's rationales for settlement are indeed weak. His raising of Richie Incognito's cell phone as previously setting a precedent for Brady is absolutely ludicrous. Most of the local media have been out to get Brady from day one for reasons that will never be understood among those of us with IQ's above 70. And, yes, a settlement means most of us will be unhappy. But it's not entirely the worst strategy from a legal standpoint, especially given the uncertainties with respect to the outcome of the court case.
lexrageorge said:
You're overstating what Brady and the NFLPA are looking for.
Objectively, they don't care if the judge "rips" Goodell or not. What they want, and apparently expect, is for the judge to say "The Commissioner has exceeded his authority in this regard, and the suspension is ultra vires."
That's all. The NFLPA and Brady's interests are aligned, and a settlement hurts the NFLPA (because it tacitly justifies Goodell's tactic of dropping insane initial punishments to give himself superior leverage in negotiating), and only helps Brady in some regard but not all. Any settlement, any settlement at all, is a net win for the NFL.
troparra said:
How can anyone watch that video and think that the NFL gives two shits about air pressure in a football? They've got an official (Gene Steratore) who can't use his gauge properly on video. Does he seem concerned? No, not really. Does he re-inflate back to where the team set their balls at? No. Does he take that ball out of consideration? No, he just tosses it to another official to be put in play. "12.5, that's close enough". No, Gene, that's not close enough. That's perfectly fine. Was it really 12.5? Or could it have been 12.3 or 12.4 and that was close enough for you?
And what did they do with these precious balls when they were done? Lock them up? Keep them within eye sight? No, they throw them under some counter around the corner in the locker room.
The whole thing is so lax that you can't tell me Walt Anderson knew that all of the Pats balls were at 12.5 or 12.5 and the Colts at 13 with such certainty. The level of precision in them checking the footballs in that video is so far from what the NFL wants you to believe happened in that locker room. And then for Walt to say that McNally taking the balls was some incredible breach of security that he's never seen in all his years? Get outta here with that.
Hey they want both of your nuts, and you want to keep both of your nuts. So let's say, they get one nut, and you keep one. Nobody's happy, but we get to move on. You still can function with one testicle. No admission of culpability though.
Piling on, but what isn't in this thread?
Revis from the bottom of the Cromartie article:
"he got the suspension of four games, and [he should] live with it...
Revis revealed that Brady addressed the team after the AFC Championship Game, when accusations of deflating the footballs first surfaced.
"After that game, going into the Super Bowl, Tom spoke to the team, and it seemed like he was very hurt about what was being said about Deflategate and what was said about him, and I think he just tried to clear the air in that moment," Revis said. "And then after the Super Bowl and we won, it just blew up into a bigger issue."
I've been wondering how Revis could square the SB with throwing TB under the #DG bus. And here it is! Not an issue in the SB, just something that applied after the ring was won.
Edit: sorry, link: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13388599/tom-brady-new-england-patiots-being-unfairly-punished-antonio-cromartie-new-york-jets-says
Revis from the bottom of the Cromartie article:
"he got the suspension of four games, and [he should] live with it...
Revis revealed that Brady addressed the team after the AFC Championship Game, when accusations of deflating the footballs first surfaced.
"After that game, going into the Super Bowl, Tom spoke to the team, and it seemed like he was very hurt about what was being said about Deflategate and what was said about him, and I think he just tried to clear the air in that moment," Revis said. "And then after the Super Bowl and we won, it just blew up into a bigger issue."
I've been wondering how Revis could square the SB with throwing TB under the #DG bus. And here it is! Not an issue in the SB, just something that applied after the ring was won.
Edit: sorry, link: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13388599/tom-brady-new-england-patiots-being-unfairly-punished-antonio-cromartie-new-york-jets-says
Closure of this issue is the least likely thing to result from splitting the baby, all of the hopes and dreams of the hot sports take world's egg-covered face to the contrary. I mean, exactly how much closure has there been on Spygate? Pats took their punishment and the whole world just moved on, understanding they had paid their debt to society? It's not mentioned breathlessly every time the Pats have the temerity to be smarter and better than their competition?
Brady should go full Marlo Stanfield.
Brady should go full Marlo Stanfield.
I've only read quotes from Revis so far and so far, in written text form, he comes off as a guy who's sort of implying Brady's guilt without saying it, but I suspect that if we heard those quotes he would sound like someone who just doesn't have a clue about deflated balls, doesn't want to get into it at all, and thinks that the facts don't really matter and that Brady could just take the suspension and move on. which sounds a lot tamer to me (still disagree, but he can have his opinion). Sort of like when (I think) Richard Sherman was quoted as saying Tom isn't the chior boy everything thinks he is, which sounded like innendo in text but when you see the video of him saying it in context, he's obviously joking around talking abotu how he's intense when on the field and isn't actually implying that once the cameras off he goes and clubs baby seals.
The spin people can put on these things without actually outright lying is nuts to me.
The spin people can put on these things without actually outright lying is nuts to me.
Roger Goodell will not care if a judge tears him a new one. Bad headlines will not bother him, nor will a million articles about how he's an awful commissioner. His job is not in jeopardy because the traits that make him so furiously incompetent in times like these are the same traits that the owners need.
Two things are going on for the NFL now and in the near future. The health risks associated with playing football are going to lead to less youth participation, which means less athletes, which means a worse product on the field, and this will bear out within a decade or so. Also, I really think we'll see players retire early (a la Patrick Willis) with more frequency. These factors, along with other health related issues (like lawsuits) will affect the product on the field and the bottom line for owners. I love football but it's a brutal sport and it will see changes that affect it's primacy in the American sports landscape.
The second thing is the live sports television bubble (which is tied to the franchise value bubble). Live sports are just about the only thing that rates nowadays, so networks pay ridiculous sums for it. That's the biggest reason why all sports franchise valuations have ballooned. But TV is going to change soon as well and it's hard for me to think that the contract from NBC in 2020 (or whenever it is) will equal the last one. I could be wrong, but it seems very unlikely that the NFL will be able to extract that kind of money again as more people continue to cut the cable cord.
I think the owners are well aware of both of these factors. They realize that the time to make money is now, so they're going to wring this rag until there's not a drop left. In order to do that, they need a commissioner that has zero self-awareness or shame. They found that man in Roger Goodell. He's willing to treat breast cancer as a revenue driver for the league. He can talk about how he's not sure about the link between football and CTE with a straight face. Want to extort a free stadium from a struggling municipality? Rog will have your back. When domestic violence spats arise, he's more than happy to talk tough about it, but he also makes sure that the star player is not off the field too long. He is the perfect amoral, shallow, greedy, soulless, drooling sycophant to corral these owners until they sell for record profits.
Only someone with a conscience would care what a judge says. Goodell has never shown that he possesses one. He'll be just as obstinate now as he will be during the next labor negotiations, and the owners love that. This is also why Brady should not settle, because he'd just be feeding into this cycle of BS.
Two things are going on for the NFL now and in the near future. The health risks associated with playing football are going to lead to less youth participation, which means less athletes, which means a worse product on the field, and this will bear out within a decade or so. Also, I really think we'll see players retire early (a la Patrick Willis) with more frequency. These factors, along with other health related issues (like lawsuits) will affect the product on the field and the bottom line for owners. I love football but it's a brutal sport and it will see changes that affect it's primacy in the American sports landscape.
The second thing is the live sports television bubble (which is tied to the franchise value bubble). Live sports are just about the only thing that rates nowadays, so networks pay ridiculous sums for it. That's the biggest reason why all sports franchise valuations have ballooned. But TV is going to change soon as well and it's hard for me to think that the contract from NBC in 2020 (or whenever it is) will equal the last one. I could be wrong, but it seems very unlikely that the NFL will be able to extract that kind of money again as more people continue to cut the cable cord.
I think the owners are well aware of both of these factors. They realize that the time to make money is now, so they're going to wring this rag until there's not a drop left. In order to do that, they need a commissioner that has zero self-awareness or shame. They found that man in Roger Goodell. He's willing to treat breast cancer as a revenue driver for the league. He can talk about how he's not sure about the link between football and CTE with a straight face. Want to extort a free stadium from a struggling municipality? Rog will have your back. When domestic violence spats arise, he's more than happy to talk tough about it, but he also makes sure that the star player is not off the field too long. He is the perfect amoral, shallow, greedy, soulless, drooling sycophant to corral these owners until they sell for record profits.
Only someone with a conscience would care what a judge says. Goodell has never shown that he possesses one. He'll be just as obstinate now as he will be during the next labor negotiations, and the owners love that. This is also why Brady should not settle, because he'd just be feeding into this cycle of BS.
I heard the quotes listening on the radio and the bolded version is exactly how it sounded to me. He was truly clueless on the facts, at one point saying words to the effect "I mean, Roger set the penalty, so I guess he should just accept it and move on." There's some high level reasoning for you.drbretto said:
All this evidence of NFL depravity has caused me to check into the concussion issue, and how it might play out in legislation. In googling "Concussion NFL Congress", I came upon this article from last year NFL must pay for its handling of concussion issues — or Congress should intervene by our good friend Sally Jenkins. She makes some good points:
and finally:
Now that out and out lying by the NFL has been documented, Sally's arguments have only gotten stronger.
and finally:
Now that out and out lying by the NFL has been documented, Sally's arguments have only gotten stronger.
Bleedred said:
And I would definitely agree with you that his reasoning is dumb. But he's there to play football, not talk about things, so I'm more or less ok with him being ignorant on the subject. What I'm not ok with is that every quote I've read from him has been inserted into articles in a way that makes those quotes sound like he's an insider implying that he knows something about deflated balls but just won't talk about it. That's fucked up.
Closure is the last issue on my list. It's not irrelevant in that every minute spent on this bullshit instead of preparing for the season or enjoying his time off is a wasted minute. But it pales next to the other reasons to go into full de-risk mode.Myt1 said:
You have told me that I overemphasize personal experiences in these discussions and that may be so. But like most lawyers, and probably you, I have seen clients go all in when I thought they should settle, and then lose big. It truly sucks when that happens. My experiences involve only money; I can only imagine what criminal defense lawyers go through when that happens.
But can anyone who practices labor law or is well versed in labor law as it pertains to this dispute tell me that if it gets to Berman, that the odds of Berman doing anything better than 4 games are more than 50-50? Maybe I have the odds way off.
Bleedred said:
I assume a lot of this also has to do with him being bitter about his uncle not getting a single vote to lead the NFLPA. The NFLPA screwed this whole thing up, so Revis probably thinks the players deserve to have this happen to them. He basically said as much when he spoke with Manish Mehta a few months ago.
Who the hell would wear this? A non Pats fan isnt wearing a Pats jersey. A Pats fan isnt wearing this one.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tom-Brady-DEFLATOR-New-England-Patriots-Unsigned-Custom-Blue-Jersey-Size-XL-/231615202359?hash=item35ed578437
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tom-Brady-DEFLATOR-New-England-Patriots-Unsigned-Custom-Blue-Jersey-Size-XL-/231615202359?hash=item35ed578437
The Colts equipment manager made the claim, and when asked about where he heard it from during the ensuing investigation suddenly developed amnesia. Where it came from was the Ravens' complaints the week before, during a game played in a frozen tundra. Add in A-Rog's comments about preferring overinflated balls and slipping through because refs tended not to check closely, and it seems like the most likely scenario is that no one gave a shit until this whole fiasco. The one bright side of this is that QBs all across the league are going to hate the Colts and Ravens for forcing this new testing regime on the balls.Manball said:
ivanvamp said:
Here is his general site
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/author/floriomj/
Here was the article
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/08/07/will-goodell-face-another-media-scrum-in-canton/
Tiki Barber knows what's up. Thinks the commish should be be fired.
http://tikiandtierney.radio.cbssports.com/2015/08/07/tiki-barber-says-roger-goodell-should-be-fired/
I like this part.
http://tikiandtierney.radio.cbssports.com/2015/08/07/tiki-barber-says-roger-goodell-should-be-fired/
I like this part.
I agree with Theo that Brady's side needs to be seen as at least attempting to reach a settlement with the NFL. However I disagree with Gasper's assessment that offering to agree to a one game suspension is the least bit reasonable. Brady's best and final offer should consist of zero games suspended, and not greater than a $50K fine. This is a completely reasonable offer, since it is based on admission of the one provable fact the NFL has against Brady: that he did not turn over his cell phone. And there is recent precedent for punishment of this exact offense: $50K fine (cf. Brett Favre sexting case). Hence: completely reasonable offer. If Brady is being magnanimous, he could offer to go as high as $75K, throwing in the nominal $25K fine that is associated with intentional ball tampering per the NFL's own operations manual. Again, completely reasonable, and actually exceeds 'reasonable' by agreeing to accept a sanction for a violation (tampering with balls) that the NFL has zero credible evidence Brady took part in, or even actually took place at all for that matter. Bottom line: a $75K fine is consistent with all of the undisputed facts of the case, all of the NFL's existing rules, and all relevant recent precedent.
The other reason Brady should not offer anything more than what is outlined above: there is a TON more potential downside for the NFL in not settling. If Brady doesn't settle, and Berman's ruling doesn't go his way, he is in exactly the same boat he is in today: out for four games, loss of reputation (the latter of which is probably a done deal regardless). If the NFL doesn't settle, and Berman rules against them, they get not just a huge blow to their pride, but also to their credibility, their perceived competence, and quite possibly, could also risk a permanent reduction of the Commissioner's powers to rule in similar situations going forward. The only downside to settling for the NFL: the pride part. On this point, I would advise them to heed the wisdom of the great philosopher Marcellus Wallace: "F*ck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps."
The other reason Brady should not offer anything more than what is outlined above: there is a TON more potential downside for the NFL in not settling. If Brady doesn't settle, and Berman's ruling doesn't go his way, he is in exactly the same boat he is in today: out for four games, loss of reputation (the latter of which is probably a done deal regardless). If the NFL doesn't settle, and Berman rules against them, they get not just a huge blow to their pride, but also to their credibility, their perceived competence, and quite possibly, could also risk a permanent reduction of the Commissioner's powers to rule in similar situations going forward. The only downside to settling for the NFL: the pride part. On this point, I would advise them to heed the wisdom of the great philosopher Marcellus Wallace: "F*ck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps."
I'm more speaking about the columnists like MacMullan who are pushing it.TheoShmeo said:
The place where we disagree is a first premise issue. To me, and what what I would estimate would be Brady (with the caveat that I know almost nothing about the man), the four games basically mean nothing at this point. They're not even remotely close to a measure of the harm that the NFL has already done to Brady, and the marginal detriment of missing them is so incredibly diminished as to be almost meaningless.
The real potential benefit isn't getting to play in four games in which the Pats would probably go 2-2 anyway. It's in vindication and transparency and personal pride in the face of an opponent that is almost laughably without character or merit. In other words, I don't think your instincts regarding settlement are wrong vis-a-vis settlement itself. I think you're just probably improperly weighing the potential benefits and detriments and what a real return to status quo ante bellum would be.
At this point, the NFL and the NFLPA are not only in talks we are not privy to, they are almost certainly each, together and separately, having communications with Judge Berman to which we are not privy. The substance of those communications will carry vast weight in what each party decides to do.
I'm not going to tell anyone not to talk about this or speculate what you think should be done, as this is a message board and stuff. But I would think it's worthwhile to consider, for anyone who has not... Basically, we got the transcripts which we have found fun and gratifying as we finally had actual information about what had been going down and, frankly, it's largely been seen as validating for Team Brady.
But now we're re-entering a radio silence zone where we no longer have access to the most important ramifications of all these facts we have gotten to pour over. Can you feel the tension in this narrative rising???
I'm not going to tell anyone not to talk about this or speculate what you think should be done, as this is a message board and stuff. But I would think it's worthwhile to consider, for anyone who has not... Basically, we got the transcripts which we have found fun and gratifying as we finally had actual information about what had been going down and, frankly, it's largely been seen as validating for Team Brady.
But now we're re-entering a radio silence zone where we no longer have access to the most important ramifications of all these facts we have gotten to pour over. Can you feel the tension in this narrative rising???
CantKeepmedown said:
Tiki Barber is one mediot I don't want on my side. He's a shit heal and leaves smoldering ruins every where he goes.
So, the story about the referee who stole balls during the game, did that get any mention in the Wells report? Has it even been confirmed by the NFL?
http://nypost.com/2015/02/18/nfls-circus-deflategate-probe-turns-up-black-market-ball-thief/
http://nypost.com/2015/02/18/nfls-circus-deflategate-probe-turns-up-black-market-ball-thief/
pappymojo said:
Not a referee or on-field official, but an authorized NFL official.
You need to read the entire section of the Wells Report about the NFL guys pilfering game balls and introducing non-authorized balls into the playing of the AFCCG. Remember, according to the Commish, it's all about "protecting the integrity of the game" but he's managed to skate on his staffpeople doing all this crap, seemingly not just in the AFCCG but also in the Ravens game the week before and who knows how many more games.
That section also sheds light on Referee Anderson's lack of rigor in his pre-game ball inspections. He didn't even initial all the K balls the way he was supposed to.
Check out DC's Steve Czaban's podcast from May about this.
Isn't that official that was stealing balls likely responsible for giving the Ravens a new K ball in the division game? You know, which actually was what led to the Ravens coach warning the Colts in the first place.
Without that asshole, none of this even gets started.
Without that asshole, none of this even gets started.
My first thought too.. how long has the NFL charged the DoD or the State National Guards or even the local first responder honor guards (Police and Fire) who parade on field. It is sickening.Harry Hooper said:
This oped by Dowd for CNN is a wonderful thing:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html
"Furthermore, there has been no convincing explanation from the NFL or its three law firms as to why this investigation took five months to complete. Justice delayed is justice denied. The delay creates prejudice and gives the appearance of sour grapes and a witch-hunt against the championship team. One would have expected the NFL to be able to complete a thorough investigation between the AFC Championship game and the Super Bowl to assure the public and players that there should be no concern. Instead, we were treated to months of delay and an unnecessary soap opera."
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html
"Furthermore, there has been no convincing explanation from the NFL or its three law firms as to why this investigation took five months to complete. Justice delayed is justice denied. The delay creates prejudice and gives the appearance of sour grapes and a witch-hunt against the championship team. One would have expected the NFL to be able to complete a thorough investigation between the AFC Championship game and the Super Bowl to assure the public and players that there should be no concern. Instead, we were treated to months of delay and an unnecessary soap opera."
This made my week, thanks Rev! Below is my favorite quote from the piece.There is no Rev said:
John Dowd, former Special Counsel for MLB, tears the NFL and Goodell a new one over on CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html
