Goats vs Raiders

Deathofthebambino

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I remember very clearly in the middle of Parcells' 3rd year Bob Ryan writing an article implying Parcells could be fired if he couldn't build on their improvements from Year 2.

Drew was what we would see as a turnover machine in his first few years but given the time period, throwing 25 TDs in his second year was incredibly impressive.

Given the way the rules favor the offense today, Mac's utter lack of production stands out even more. It's not just his supporting cast. Mac is incapable of playing. I honestly believe we could give Mac Justin Jefferson and he'd still be terrible because he has been found out by the league, doesn't haven't the physical tools to overcome tight coverage, and is mentally broken.

It would be best for all parties to divorce as soon as possible. There is no salvaging him.
I 100% agree he's mentally broken too, but I'm not sure about the rest aside from there is no salvaging him. I think there's no salvaging him here, that's for sure, but I can't blame him for everything that's gone on and I honestly believe that outside of a handful of guys, nobody is making hay with the team around him.

Drew also had the benefit of Bruce Armstrong protecting his blind side. Dude literally missed 4 games his rookie year, 8 games in 1992, and didn't miss a single game besides those from 1987 to 2000.

In that 1996 season, they had Armstrong/Rucci/Wohlabaugh/Lane/Roberts on the offensive line. The reason I can write it that way is because 4 of those guys started all 16 games, and Rucci started 12.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I 100% agree he's mentally broken too, but I'm not sure about the rest aside from there is no salvaging him. I think there's no salvaging him here, that's for sure, but I can't blame him for everything that's gone on and I honestly believe that outside of a handful of guys, nobody is making hay with the team around him.

Drew also had the benefit of Bruce Armstrong protecting his blind side. Dude literally missed 4 games his rookie year, 8 games in 1992, and didn't miss a single game besides those from 1987 to 2000.

In that 1996 season, they had Armstrong/Rucci/Wohlabaugh/Lane/Roberts on the offensive line. The reason I can write it that way is because 4 of those guys started all 16 games, and Rucci started 12.
No doubt the broken OL isn't helping, but to me (and obviously this is just my opinion) Mac's physical skills aren't up to the task of playing QB in this league. Not to mention that he appears to be an enormous frontrunner; he reacts poorly and panics at any and all adversity. It's really a terrible sign that he can't fight through anything.

I doubt even Andy Reid could do anything with Mac at this point. Ever since the Buffalo wind game, Mac has been on a downward spiral performance-wise and hasn't shown anything indicating he'll get better.

He'll be on the goat farm next to Giovanni Carmazzi in 2 years.
 

sezwho

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No doubt the broken OL isn't helping, but to me (and obviously this is just my opinion) Mac's physical skills aren't up to the task of playing QB in this league. Not to mention that he appears to be an enormous frontrunner; he reacts poorly and panics at any and all adversity. It's really a terrible sign that he can't fight through anything.

I doubt even Andy Reid could do anything with Mac at this point. Ever since the Buffalo wind game, Mac has been on a downward spiral performance-wise and hasn't shown anything indicating he'll get better.

He'll be on the goat farm next to Giovanni Carmazzi in 2 years.
I just can’t be that confident when Mac went the playoffs in the only year approximating normal.

The other three of the post Brady years Bill had the offense in such a shambles that you basically can’t even figure out what you have (Cam, Judge/Patricia, oline).

fwiw, Zappe now can’t complete a simple pass over the middle. Bill has the offense anti-Midas touch. You are probably right about the goat farm though, it’s heading that way for sure.
 

tims4wins

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I just can’t be that confident when Mac went the playoffs in the only year approximating normal.

The other three of the post Brady years Bill had the offense in such a shambles that you basically can’t even figure out what you have (Cam, Judge/Patricia, oline).

fwiw, Zappe now can’t complete a simple pass over the middle. Bill has the offense anti-Midas touch. You are probably right about the goat farm though, it’s heading that way for sure.
Why doesn't this year approximate normal? Because of the O line injuries? I don't buy it. They have a real OC. They have a real OL coach.
 

Rico Guapo

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Why doesn't this year approximate normal? Because of the O line injuries? I don't buy it. They have a real OC. They have a real OL coach.
To say the O line has injuries wildly understates how badly they've played regardless of who they've trotted out on the field. The run and pass blocking has been bad beyond words and it makes evaluating the rest of the offense difficult though Mac has sucked and I'm done defending him. Compounding these issues is the fact the TEs can't block and the only WR worth a damn has been Bourne with Douglas getting an honorable mention despite being hurt. It makes the offense predictable and easy to defend because the run game is shitty, even in 12 personnel, and there is no deep threat (lack of WR talent, no time to throw), so teams play single high safety concepts and flood the middle of the field.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Why doesn't this year approximate normal? Because of the O line injuries? I don't buy it. They have a real OC. They have a real OL coach.
But they don't have a real offensive line or receivers or running backs or tight ends, and it's a third system in 3 years. I'm not blaming Klemm for anything that has happened this year with the O Line. I'm not even sure the god of blocking, Dante himself, could do anything with this group, but I also think the jury is still very, very much out on Klemm. It's not like he's got some great track record of success, besides some lawsuits at UCLA, getting released by the Steeler in season because he didn't like the OC, and then going back to college to Oregon playing against a depleted PAC-12. But like I said, I'm not blaming him for anything this season. You can't always make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
 

tims4wins

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To say the O line has injuries wildly understates how badly they've played regardless of who they've trotted out on the field. The run and pass blocking has been bad beyond words and it makes evaluating the rest of the offense difficult though Mac has sucked and I'm done defending him. Compounding these issues is the fact the TEs can't block and the only WR worth a damn has been Bourne with Douglas getting an honorable mention despite being hurt. It makes the offense predictable and easy to defend because the run game is shitty, even in 12 personnel, and there is no deep threat (lack of WR talent, no time to throw), so teams play single high safety concepts and flood the middle of the field.
But they don't have a real offensive line or receivers or running backs or tight ends, and it's a third system in 3 years. I'm not blaming Klemm for anything that has happened this year with the O Line. I'm not even sure the god of blocking, Dante himself, could do anything with this group, but I also think the jury is still very, very much out on Klemm. It's not like he's got some great track record of success, besides some lawsuits at UCLA, getting released by the Steeler in season because he didn't like the OC, and then going back to college to Oregon playing against a depleted PAC-12. But like I said, I'm not blaming him for anything this season. You can't always make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
I get it, it all sucks, including Mac. I was just making the point that while none of us would argue that 2022 was at all normal - which is why the majority of us gave Mac at least a partial pass - none of us are giving him a pass any more. Didn't mean for it to be a controversial statement.
 

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All of these statements: no OL, bad WRs, changing OC's, every single one of them was made during Drew's final years in New England. Repeatedly.

And then we got a better QB in there and magically everything changed.

Mac isn't the guy. It doesn't matter that his circumstances are adverse. A quality NFL QB must be able to succeed in adverse circumstances. Mac can't do it.

He stinks, guys. He's had two years to show he can do something, anything of note. And instead he's gotten exponentially worse. He can't throw. He can't run. He can't even make halfway decent decisions.

Send him to the farm.
 

Jimbodandy

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Can we update the BBtL rules to say that any posts acknowledging the ridiculousness of this OL and the coaching turnover for the last three years whatsoever must first be prefaced with "Of course Mac sucks and also..."? I think that would help conversation in multiple threads.

I'm going to start doing that unilaterally going forward.
 

Deathofthebambino

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All of these statements: no OL, bad WRs, changing OC's, every single one of them was made during Drew's final years in New England. Repeatedly.

And then we got a better QB in there and magically everything changed.
I don't remember this at all.

Drew Bledsoe had essentially the same receiving corps and same offensive line in 1998 that he had in 1996. Armstrong/Lane/Wohlabaugh/Rucci started all but 5 games in 1998. The only change was William Roberts to Zefross Moss. Then in '99, they brought in fucking Damien Woddy and Heath Irwin. Jefferson and Glenn were still on the outside, Coates was getting older, but still there. The big difference on offense was the loss of Curtis Martin.

In 2000, they brought in Belichick and Weis and got rid of Carroll. Kind of a big change besides just the quarterback. They went 5-11 that year, but Troy Brown became Troy Brown, and Glenn was still a playmaker. Kevin Faulk became the receiving threat we all expected. One of the biggest problems with that team was finishing 17th in points allowed and 20th in yards allowed.

2001 wasn't just because of Tom Brady, it wasn't some magical thing he did. In the last 9 games of the season, including the playoffs, the defense never gave up more than 17 points in a game and they forced an absolutely fucking ridiculous 25 turnovers in 9 games (the Pats are at what, 3 this season through 6 games on defense?). In those last 9 games, Brady threw 7 touchdowns and 6 interceptions, and 4 of those touchdowns came in the first game. He only threw 3 touchdowns in the last 8 games, including the playoffs. We all know now that Brady is the GOAT and we love him like a son, but let's not revise history that he made everything magically change immediately.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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But he did.

The offense was clearly MUCH more confident under Brady. Remember the articles stating that even in practice he was leading the scout team on scoring drives against the defense?

Everything flows through the QB and the entire offense feeds off of that.

No one is saying that the rest of the current team doesn't have issues. But Mac is BY FAR the biggest problem on the team. I am absolutely convinced that if Mac were replaced by a semi-competant QB that the team would be exponentially better even if none of the other personnel were changed. He can't process the game quickly enough under the current circumstances to be a an NFL QB.

Get rid of Mac and I think we'd see a far better team almost immediately.
 

sezwho

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I get it, it all sucks, including Mac. I was just making the point that while none of us would argue that 2022 was at all normal - which is why the majority of us gave Mac at least a partial pass - none of us are giving him a pass any more. Didn't mean for it to be a controversial statement.
I'm not giving a pass and I think he could well be done here, at least as long as Bill continues to scowl down from Olympus.

I did take issue with the idea that he can never be anything but the puddle he's been recently.

We know he's not the GOAT, is not super athletic, kinda comes off like a baby, and can't carry this crapbox.

I'm not sure we know that he's worthless bottom of barrel drek until he's not saddled with this situation, though he may never get that chance.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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But he did.

The offense was clearly MUCH more confident under Brady. Remember the articles stating that even in practice he was leading the scout team on scoring drives against the defense?

Everything flows through the QB and the entire offense feeds off of that.

No one is saying that the rest of the current team doesn't have issues. But Mac is BY FAR the biggest problem on the team. I am absolutely convinced that if Mac were replaced by a semi-competant QB that the team would be exponentially better even if none of the other personnel were changed. He can't process the game quickly enough under the current circumstances to be a an NFL QB.

Get rid of Mac and I think we'd see a far better team almost immediately.
Your argument depends heavily on what your view of “semi competent” would be. I agree Mac is a big part of the issue (and hope Bill recognizes that) but I don’t think this team is “far” better with a middling QB like GaroppoloCarr or Tannehill. They might be 2-4 instead of 1-5 and have the 22nd ranked offense instead of 32nd.

The problem is that there really aren’t many “middling” QB’s in the league. You have franchise guys, a few semi competent veterans and a bunch of young guys who haven’t yet developed (Bryce Young etc) or who look as ineffective (or close to) as Jones (Ridder, Pickett, Love, Howell).

Outside of the top 10 or so guys, I don’t know what QB could come play behind this line with this group of weapons and see a big increase of offensive quality.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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I'm not sure we know that he's worthless bottom of barrel drek until he's not saddled with this situation, though he may never get that chance.
Obviously everyone has their own threshold to reach before making such a decision. I've watched enough of Mac to have reached mine. Others may feel differently.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Obviously everyone has their own threshold to reach before making such a decision. I've watched enough of Mac to have reached mine. Others may feel differently.
I think there's a chance he could succeed somewhere else -- especially if he has some time to process his time here from the outside and absorb lessons. Sometimes moving on to a new job gives you a bump, including in perspective. But I have turned the page on whether he can succeed in New England. Too much water under the bridge.

I'm also just ready to move on. If likeability were a prerequisite for sports fandom, I'm not sure I'd be able to be a fan, but it still matters to me. Maybe it's irrational, but the guy just bugs me. Not his play. Just the guy. I get annoyed by him. If we're going to suck, I'd prefer it be with a guy I like a bit more. I liked Cam a lot. I know that's not universal, but he made me chuckle and as "look at me" as he could be with the hats and suits, I never got the sense that he wanted anything other than what was best for the team. I'm sure Mac is that way too inside, but he just rubs me the wrong way. Don't get me wrong, I'd take a year of Aaron Rodgers even though I despise him, just like I root for Chris Sale when he's on the mound.

I've found in the work place that you can skate for a very long time on likeability or competence. You can get by for a long time even without both. If people like you, they'll forgive fuckups. If you're highly competent, you can be an asshole. Both? That's the horrible exacta. Kind of the same for me with sports.
 

Was (Not Wasdin)

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Can we update the BBtL rules to say that any posts acknowledging the ridiculousness of this OL and the coaching turnover for the last three years whatsoever must first be prefaced with "Of course Mac sucks and also..."? I think that would help conversation in multiple threads.

I'm going to start doing that unilaterally going forward.
Of course Mac sucks, and also…

I’m not sure he sucks. He definitely looks broken, and it probably is time to part ways with him. I dont see him getting a second contract here, so probably better to get what you can for him before the end of next season (my guess is he gets dealt in the offseason). But he didn’t suck in 2021. As a rookie QB, he was solidly upper half of the league (and I’m not talking about the pro bowl bs, his numbers were solid). More importantly, the offense played the kind of “complementary football” BB always talks about-they put points on the board, they maintained drives and possessed the ball. But this offense is so different from 2021, it is almost incomparable. Among other things, the 2021 team rushed for 4.4 ypc, and was 14th in the league in T.O.P. This year’s team is at 3.4 ypc and 28th in T.O.P. You will not be successful at that level of production.

I agree (somewhat) with SJH, that Mac has to bear some of the heat for this. But there is a lot of blame on the coaching and personnel fronts as well. Maybe Mahomes or healthy Aaron Rodgers could do something with this team, but a Cousins/Mayfield/Carr type-I wouldn’t bother. Save the $$$ and build a 7 deep OL with a legit receiving threat, then come back for the QB.
 

ShaneTrot

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I am done with Mac but the whole program is broken. This team sucks everywhere except maybe on parts of the defense. I think the defense is decent but the injuries have brought this to a top 15 defense instead of a possible top 5 defense.

The special teams used to be a strength, the past two years they have been abysmal. This team is dumb, they take the dumbest penalties at the worst times. They turn over the ball, they have not forced turnovers. If they need to make a play on offense in a critical situation, there is a drop, a penalty, a guy can't keep his feet in bounds, a sack, a free rusher is in the QB's face, a lousy throw, the QB sneak fails, the RB gets stuffed, or worse a turnover. I can't believe this is a BB coached team but they have been this way for the last 2 years. I cannot understand how we keep seeing the same issues. I know there is limited talent on the offense but the operation is just not clean. Is there no buy in by the players? Is the message stale? The 2019 Dolphins were built to tank but Brian Flores coached that shitty team to 5 wins in their last 9 games. Teams can be fixed, I wonder if BB can still do it.
 

Justthetippett

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I personally don't want Bill to fix this team. It's hard to watch but completely bottoming out is the best way forward for them. If Bill squeezes a few more wins out of them, then the big changes that need to happen (even if stays) get more difficult. I want to see effort and execution and improvement and all that but I'd be happy to keep losing close games the rest of the season.

(OK maybe one upset that fucks over the Dolphins, Bills, Jets or ratbirds somehow would be nice too.)
 

Bowser

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I tend to think BB is not washed up and can still do the job as a coach ... and perhaps even as a GM. But...

It should be observed that virtually everything he's learned about team building and what it takes to be a champion -- all the bits about doing your job, and wanting players for whom football is important, and that all three phases matter, and bend but don't break, and zig when the others zag, and make your opponent play lefthanded. -- all of it was learned within the framework of having not merely a franchise QB but having the BEST QB EVER. In other words, Bill may not really know anything about success. Or he may know no more than what the other 5-10 best coaches know.
 

BigSoxFan

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I tend to think BB is not washed up and can still do the job as a coach ... and perhaps even as a GM. But...

It should be observed that virtually everything he's learned about team building and what it takes to be a champion -- all the bits about doing your job, and wanting players for whom football is important, and that all three phases matter, and bend but don't break, and zig when the others zag, and make your opponent play lefthanded. -- all of it was learned within the framework of having not merely a franchise QB but having the BEST QB EVER. In other words, Bill may not really know anything about success. Or he may know no more than what the other 5-10 best coaches know.
2001-2004 Brady wasn’t even remotely close to the best QB ever though. He wasn’t even thought of as the best QB at the time. Bill also won 11 games in 2008 with Matt Cassell so he clearly had built a pretty good team, even when you strip out Brady. I think BB clearly knows a lot about success.

My analysis is a little different. I think it’s a multitude of factors contributing to where this team currently is but the biggest reason, I think, is simply misevaluation of draft picks and FA acquisitions. Bill the GM has had a rough stretch and perhaps some of the reason is because of fundamental issues on not adjusting to league-wide trends or not properly evaluating positions.

He clearly knows defense but I’m not sure BB the GM has properly evolved on the offensive side of the ball.
 

ManicCompression

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2001-2004 Brady wasn’t even remotely close to the best QB ever though. He wasn’t even thought of as the best QB at the time.
Kind of a sidebar, but I feel like Brady's "team manager" rep from 01-04 is a little overexaggerated. It's really just the first year where he was that guy. In '02 and '04 he threw for nearly 30 touchdowns and in '03 he was third in MVP voting, and there's about a 40 yards per game jump from 01 to those three years in terms of passing. It doesn't leap out on his record because the game has changed so much in general, but he was really good those three years and carrying a passing offense that didn't have amazing receivers.

There was absolutely conversations about Brady Vs. Manning and who was better because Brady's teams actually won Super Bowls while Manning just put up stats. There's this revisionist history that gets thrown about like he was just dumping off to backs and throwing screens to Troy Brown those years while defense and special teams picked up the slack and it's just not the case really.
 

rodderick

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Kind of a sidebar, but I feel like Brady's "team manager" rep from 01-04 is a little overexaggerated. It's really just the first year where he was that guy. In '02 and '04 he threw for nearly 30 touchdowns and in '03 he was third in MVP voting, and there's about a 40 yards per game jump from 01 to those three years in terms of passing. It doesn't leap out on his record because the game has changed so much in general, but he was really good those three years and carrying a passing offense that didn't have amazing receivers.

There was absolutely conversations about Brady Vs. Manning and who was better because Brady's teams actually won Super Bowls while Manning just put up stats. There's this revisionist history that gets thrown about like he was just dumping off to backs and throwing screens to Troy Brown those years while defense and special teams picked up the slack and it's just not the case really.
He was being openly compared to Joe Montana by 2003 and there were flame wars all over the internet on Brady vs. Peyton. There were plenty of people who thought he was indeed the best QB in football at the time.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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2001-2004 Brady wasn’t even remotely close to the best QB ever though. He wasn’t even thought of as the best QB at the time. Bill also won 11 games in 2008 with Matt Cassell so he clearly had built a pretty good team, even when you strip out Brady. I think BB clearly knows a lot about success.

My analysis is a little different. I think it’s a multitude of factors contributing to where this team currently is but the biggest reason, I think, is simply misevaluation of draft picks and FA acquisitions. Bill the GM has had a rough stretch and perhaps some of the reason is because of fundamental issues on not adjusting to league-wide trends or not properly evaluating positions.

He clearly knows defense but I’m not sure BB the GM has properly evolved on the offensive side of the ball.
I think the tricky part in evaluating BB the GM is that even objectively good personnel departments have stretches of misses and mediocre/bad rosters. Depending on your view of the guys, Schneider, Colbert, Roseman, Newsome (before he stepped down) are some of the best GM’s in recent years or, at least, some of the guys with enough good results to stay entrenched in their positions for long enough to have a big sample size. All of those guys have plenty of draft flops, crappy or underwhelming rosters, free agency misses, down years etc.

No GM in modern history other than Bill has put together 20 years of good-great rosters consecutively. And even considering the “Brady effect”, most of the 2001-2019 Patriots teams were good rosters loaded with talented guys. Yes, some had weak position groups (2006 WR, 2008-09 CB, etc) but they generally had a roster which probably could have been a playoff contender with a solid-not Brady option at QB.

So is this just the type of dry spell which is normal for any good GM? Or has the game passed by BB?

As much as some of his moves have flopped (most of the moves on offense), any GM would struggle having to replace not just Brady but almost an entire core that got old/expensive at the same time. 5 years ago they had Gronk, Gilmore, Hightower, Chung, McCourty, Thuney, Mason, young JC Jackson, Jason McCourty, Edelman, James White, younger better versions of Flowers and Guy, etc

it’s been a huge amount of decay along with long time high end contributors leaving. That they’ve managed to rebuild the entire defense in 4 years and maintain a very good, if not quite as good, standard is impressive. The offense, well, replacing Gronk/Edelman/White/good OL is hard enough let alone finding a QB.

Absent nailing a franchise QB in 2020-21, I don’t think BB was ever going to be able to sustain success after the dynasty era ended simply because the volume of premium talent that retired/declined due to age or got too expensive was insurmountable. There’s finite high draft picks and available free agents and missing on those is a league wide problem not a BB-specific one.

not defending Strange, Thornton, JuJu or some of the other bad moves, and perhaps it is time to move on. But we’ve seen Bill adapt before, we’ve seen him bring in playmakers for high picks (as recently as trading a 1st for Cooks). I struggle with whether or not he can’t identify the types of players who win on offense in todays league or if he can’t/won’t go out and invest the resources in them. The Chiefs have struggled recently to replenish their offense, the Bills have struggled to find other options other than Diggs etc.
 

BigSoxFan

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Kind of a sidebar, but I feel like Brady's "team manager" rep from 01-04 is a little overexaggerated. It's really just the first year where he was that guy. In '02 and '04 he threw for nearly 30 touchdowns and in '03 he was third in MVP voting, and there's about a 40 yards per game jump from 01 to those three years in terms of passing. It doesn't leap out on his record because the game has changed so much in general, but he was really good those three years and carrying a passing offense that didn't have amazing receivers.

There was absolutely conversations about Brady Vs. Manning and who was better because Brady's teams actually won Super Bowls while Manning just put up stats. There's this revisionist history that gets thrown about like he was just dumping off to backs and throwing screens to Troy Brown those years while defense and special teams picked up the slack and it's just not the case really.
He was clearly underrated during that stretch. He was a very good QB from 2001-2004. He basically leveled up in 2007 with Moss/Welker and catapulted into another stratosphere that he basically stayed at for the next 15+ years. My broader point was that BB wasn’t being carried by Brady during those years. He had built a very good roster even when you strip Brady out of the equation.

My larger BB concern is that I’m wondering if there is age-related decline. It’s possible that his worst GM stretch just happened to coincide with the post-Brady era, which may skew the analysis. This offseason should tell the story. He will have a high pick and a good amount of cap space.
 

rodderick

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He was clearly underrated during that stretch. He was a very good QB from 2001-2004. He basically leveled up in 2007 with Moss/Welker and catapulted into another stratosphere that he basically stayed at for the next 15+ years. My broader point was that BB wasn’t being carried by Brady during those years. He had built a very good roster even when you strip Brady out of the equation.

My larger BB concern is that I’m wondering if there is age-related decline. It’s possible that his worst GM stretch just happened to coincide with the post-Brady era, which may skew the analysis. This offseason should tell the story. He will have a high pick and a good amount of cap space.
I think the 2005 roster kinda sucked, especially with the injuries, the 2006 offense was completely untenable as well and they finished the year 5th in offensive points per drive.
 

slamminsammya

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I think the 2005 roster kinda sucked, especially with the injuries, the 2006 offense was completely untenable as well and they finished the year 5th in offensive points per drive.
I still have nightmares of the reche Caldwell eyes.

the "everyone has a bad stretch" idea makes sense until you zero in on the particulars of the personnel mistakes they've made recently, in my opinion. even if he was a better player you still took a guard in the first round for a team that was desperate for skill guys. you drafted all interior lineman and defense this past summer. there seems to be a failure to evaluate what the teams needs actually are.