Goats vs Raiders

ragnarok725

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 28, 2003
6,387
Somerville MA
Mac's INT was terrible because Henry was open and Mac overthrew him badly. Awful throw. But it was the right DECISION. Just a bad throw.
...
Mac had the terrible interception, but still had a chance at the end to win the game, but didn't.
Can't agree here.

If you define the decision as "he has a guy open, good idea to throw" then sure. But that's not the decision. He's on the run at high speed and he chooses to throw it leaning back. That affects your accuracy. There are three defenders in the area. And on top of that he threw it back towards the middle of the field rather than shading it to the sidelines (which he kind of had to do because there was a defender on the sidelines all over Parker).

That's an extremely risky throw. He should not be trying it. Mahomes can maybe hit that. Mac can not. He should know that. And given that they're already in field goal range, he's taking points off the board with that risk. I don't think there's any way to spin it as a good decision.

And on top of that, the execution was obviously terrible. A lame duck that wasn't even close to the target and floated for the easiest interception I've seen in a while.

As for the rest of it, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Yes, games are not won or lost on single plays. QBs and every other position can make horrendous plays that make it a lot harder to win. But any single play can only result in a single score for one team, so obviously any play can be overcome. But if your team doesn't overcome it, you're the game goat. Do it in enough games and you lose your job. That's where we are at.
 
Last edited:

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,912
Deep inside Muppet Labs
The INT was a combination of a couple of things that show me Mac isn't it:

- as others have noted, that's not a throw he should be attempting to make because he's physically incapable of doing so. He doesn't have the toolset to be able to make that throw. That he tried to do so anyway shows a continuing pattern of terrible decision-making that may well lead to a benching soon.

- BUT. That throw is a throw that a competent NFL QB SHOULD be able to make. There's really nothing terribly difficult about it, he rolled to his right (his throwing side) and Henry was WIDE open in the flat and a little flick would get it to him. Almost any halfway-decent QB can complete that Mac. But Mac is incapable of doing so.

So he can't make the simplest of throws, AND he continues to make shitty decisions in trying to make throws he can't make.

Mac has 5 INTS, a lost fumble and a safety taken in his last three games, against zero TDs.

Don't let the total mess of other factors of the offense blind you to the fact that Mac is a terrible QB. He stinks, guys. And the quicker the organization gets him out of here, the better off everyone will be.
 

Toe Nash

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2005
5,638
02130
It wasn't a good decision because it was 2nd and 4 in FG range in a game that looked like 3 points would really matter (and it did). It was also a bad decision to bail on the pocket early in the first place. If he hangs in the pocket maybe his second read gets open. If he just airs it to the bench it's 3rd and 4.

Then he screwed up his footwork as well and threw off-balance and inaccurately. It was everything that he's been doing wrong this year in one play.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
SoSH Member
May 20, 2003
35,912
Deep inside Muppet Labs
It wasn't a good decision because it was 2nd and 4 in FG range in a game that looked like 3 points would really matter (and it did). It was also a bad decision to bail on the pocket early in the first place. If he hangs in the pocket maybe his second read gets open. If he just airs it to the bench it's 3rd and 4.

Then he screwed up his footwork as well and threw off-balance and inaccurately. It was everything that he's been doing wrong this year in one play.
Mac deciding he's the guy who should be playing idiotic hero ball is really grinding my gears. Mahomes can get away with that stupid stuff. Mac cannot. Yet Mac pretends he can. The lack of self-awareness is galling as hell. For a guy who was esteemed to have football smarts, he really is an incredibly stupid player.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,946
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Mac's INT was terrible because Henry was open and Mac overthrew him badly. Awful throw. But it was the right DECISION. Just a bad throw. But you know what? Every QB makes bad throws. Sometimes they force balls into coverage. Sometimes they under throw a ball badly or overthrow it badly. Sometimes they get fooled by the defense and don't see it (Brady's pick six in SB 51, for example). But Brady had some TERRIBLE interceptions over the course of his career - even in games that they won.

Look at this pick by Brady (we are all familiar with it). Go to the 8:55 mark. Pats up 21-16, driving for a TD to extend the lead. Brady throws off his back foot right to a Panther defender. Just a terrible, awful, horrendous decision and throw.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK_2j0CDNFo


This could easily have cost them the Super Bowl, but Brady overcame it. Because he's great. Mac cannot overcome these kinds of mistakes. Every QB makes them, but the great ones overcome them.

Or this one early in the SB vs. Seattle. (go to the 0:13 mark). Another back foot throw into the end zone right to a Seahawk. And even if it wasn't picked, where the F was that pass going? The only receiver in the area (Edelman) was completely blanketed.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz8ENFKYXe0


We could do this with Peyton, Marino, Montana, Elway....every great QB has had these kinds of godawful, nightmarish interceptions. But the great ones overcome them.

Mac had the terrible interception, but still had a chance at the end to win the game, but didn't.
Mac's issue is he makes completely stupid mistakes while making zero plays. I can live with picks if the Quarterback is slinging the ball all over, I actually think interceptions are overrated in general when analyzing the position. But there is no give to the take with Mac Jones. The horrific interceptions is all you're going to get. And this isn't really a recent phenomenon either.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,952
Yeah the Mac throw IS a terrible decision in part because he doesn't have the tools to make that throw. And that is a problem with Mac a lot, he can't make those throws without setting his feet and really stepping into them, instead he acts like he has a Stafford/Allen/Herbert kind of cannon and he's gonna throw a lazer off his back foot.

Throws back across your body on the run are almost always bad. Ones where you don't set your feet while doing them are worse. Some guys who are freaks get away with it more often than not because they throw missiles. Mac Jones is almost never getting away with it because his arm can't cash that check.

The almost pick is another classic of the Mac genre of throws, came out late and soft, easy jump for the DB. If you don't have the zip, you need good footwork, you need good anticipation.... Mac hasn't really shown either with rare exceptions. Ball is coming out late, and more often than not it's a changeup he didn't step into.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,816
I know it feels so long ago that it’s probably forgotten, but Mac made this same throw a few weeks ago for a touchdown. He’s capable of making it. Not as much as Mahomes is of course, but he’s made throws like this before, just this season in fact.
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
11,136
What is especially infuriating is the inconsistency Bill is showing with Mac this season. Mac has now thrown 5 INT to 0 TD the last 3 games yet he hasn't been pulled for the INTs only pulled when the game is completely out of hand. Douglas gets stripped from behind trying to make a play and he is benched for the game and after Bill says ball security is the most important part of the game on offense. If that is the case how do you continue to treat Mac with kid gloves? Sit his ass after the throws yet another horrible INT. Give Grier or Zappe a start at this point if for no other reason than to say it isn't OK to continually turn the ball over as you do to the rest of the team.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
8,280
What is especially infuriating is the inconsistency Bill is showing with Mac this season. Mac has now thrown 5 INT to 0 TD the last 3 games yet he hasn't been pulled for the INTs only pulled when the game is completely out of hand. Douglas gets stripped from behind trying to make a play and he is benched for the game and after Bill says ball security is the most important part of the game on offense. If that is the case how do you continue to treat Mac with kid gloves? Sit his ass after the throws yet another horrible INT. Give Grier or Zappe a start at this point if for no other reason than to say it isn't OK to continually turn the ball over as you do to the rest of the team.
I think it's a question of options. The coaching staff has more inside knowledge of the other players in the QB room, and my guess is they know that the players behind Mac are even worse. I know many radio callers go for the "at least it'd be entertaining angle" but I honestly don't think watching Cunningham hit behind the line of scrimmage play after play would be that entertaining. If it would help us secure the #1 pick, I might be down for that, though :)
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,786
Yeah the Mac discussion is over for me. I am in the camp that no QB could succeed here given the state of pass protection and the weapons. But it all starts with line play and they have been horrific.

Again, if they have shown the ability to shore up a flaw in season, its been on the OL. Of course Dante isn't walking through that door but they have to do better.
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
36,254
306, row 14
Yeah the Mac discussion is over for me. I am in the camp that no QB could succeed here given the state of pass protection and the weapons. But it all starts with line play and they have been horrific.

Again, if they have shown the ability to shore up a flaw in season, its been on the OL. Of course Dante isn't walking through that door but they have to do better.
To be honest, I don't think Dante fixes this. They weren't very good to begin with and on top of that they've been crushed by injuries right from the beginning. Strange and Onwenu, the two projected starting guards, went down in week 1 of training camp and have not gotten remotely close to healthy. Anderson had a weird illness that kept him out of the entirety of training camp. Reiff got injured in the 3rd preseason game and had to go to IR. They were so depleted they had to trade a 6th to the Vikings for one of their backup tackles, Lowe. Week 1 they had to start two late round, developmental picks Mafi and Sow at guard. And Sow promptly got concussed and missed time.

I could at least squint and see a respectable line of Brown - Strange - D. Andrews - Onwenu - Reiff/Anderson but that was blown up immediately in camp and since then the crater has only gotten deeper.
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,946
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Yeah the Mac discussion is over for me. I am in the camp that no QB could succeed here given the state of pass protection and the weapons. But it all starts with line play and they have been horrific.

Again, if they have shown the ability to shore up a flaw in season, its been on the OL. Of course Dante isn't walking through that door but they have to do better.
There's a pretty wide gulf between "succeed" and "lead the worst pass offense in the sport". If there are guys that could make them the 24th ranked offense that would already be a significant improvement. And I think there are plenty of those around the league.
 

JokersWildJIMED

Blinded by Borges
SoSH Member
Oct 7, 2004
2,754
It’s easy to say the OL, but besides Lowe’s ridiculous pass protection they weren’t bad yesterday…Crosby was mostly held in check until the end and the running game was productive. Pass pro was effective enough.

Goats are Belichick, Kraft, and Mac. As fans were stuck with Belichick for at least this year and it’s hard to see a worse overall team / coaching staff construction in the NFL. Kraft’s total mismanagement of the last 5 years could cost him HOF entry before he passes away.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
411
What is especially infuriating is the inconsistency Bill is showing with Mac this season. Mac has now thrown 5 INT to 0 TD the last 3 games yet he hasn't been pulled for the INTs only pulled when the game is completely out of hand. Douglas gets stripped from behind trying to make a play and he is benched for the game and after Bill says ball security is the most important part of the game on offense. If that is the case how do you continue to treat Mac with kid gloves? Sit his ass after the throws yet another horrible INT. Give Grier or Zappe a start at this point if for no other reason than to say it isn't OK to continually turn the ball over as you do to the rest of the team.
I guess I never thought about that. Brady and BB both seemed to LOVE making it a point to ice out players for infractions, especially around ball security. Either BB can't because the team sucks so bad and Mac is the only viable option (yet another indictment on BB the GM) or Mac is in fact getting preferential treatment which seems wild given everything we have seen from BB in the last 20 years. I feel like most other teams would have given Mac a phantom injury at this point, but this is the Pats, so who knows.
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
36,254
306, row 14
It’s easy to say the OL, but besides Lowe’s ridiculous pass protection they weren’t bad yesterday…Crosby was mostly held in check until the end and the running game was productive. Pass pro was effective enough.

Goats are Belichick, Kraft, and Mac. As fans were stuck with Belichick for at least this year and it’s hard to see a worse overall team / coaching staff construction in the NFL. Kraft’s total mismanagement of the last 5 years could cost him HOF entry before he passes away.
Well, that's insane.
 

johnmd20

mad dog
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 30, 2003
62,091
New York City
It’s easy to say the OL, but besides Lowe’s ridiculous pass protection they weren’t bad yesterday…Crosby was mostly held in check until the end and the running game was productive. Pass pro was effective enough.

Goats are Belichick, Kraft, and Mac. As fans were stuck with Belichick for at least this year and it’s hard to see a worse overall team / coaching staff construction in the NFL. Kraft’s total mismanagement of the last 5 years could cost him HOF entry before he passes away.
The Patriots are one of the worst teams in the NFL right now but that last sentence is truly absurd.

The Pats had a TWENTY year run of dominance. It has never happened before and it won't happen again.
 

Ale Xander

Hamilton
SoSH Member
Oct 31, 2013
73,600
Davante Parker:
Subtraction by Addition for the Patriots
Addition by Subtraction for the Fish
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,952
I know it feels so long ago that it’s probably forgotten, but Mac made this same throw a few weeks ago for a touchdown. He’s capable of making it. Not as much as Mahomes is of course, but he’s made throws like this before, just this season in fact.
Occasionally making throws doesn't make them good throws. I assume you mean the MIA TD... which made it, but #55 should have had a play on it, and that throw is considerably shorter than the one in LV.

Edit- watching back that pick is so annoying, even on the TV angle... Lowe gets beat, but there is space to step up, and Zeke is running along the first down line for a nice easy pass... worst case you get 3-4 yards likely 1st down, best he gets a nice gain into the redzone.
 
Last edited:
Oct 12, 2023
733
The blocking of the OL and TE is a catastrophe.

And one that could be seen coming back in the summer.
the problem being that once you get to the summer, it’s almost impossible to fix an OL. All they could really do is hope that Onwenu and Strange got back healthy and they could patch together a RT

I think they thought that a Brown/Strange/Andrews/Onwenu/Anderson would be pretty solid with some upside to improve if Mafi or Sow developed and thats a reasonable stance.

Almost everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong. Onwenu is still not back from his surgery or has re-aggravated the injury, Anderson had his illness and probably sucks more than they thought, Strange got hurt in July and can’t get healthy and the two kids seem lost. On top of that, Andrews is either declining or is getting exploited by virtue of having trash next to him and Trent Brown is doing Trent Brown things (mostly solid-to-good with stretches of bad, and missed a little time). They clearly hoped Reiff could be at worst a passable #3 swing tackle with low end #2 tackle upside but he’s hurt and washed up to the point of being moved inside and mostly failing there too.

Lowe might actually be the worst multi-game starter they’ve had on the OL since the early 90’s though and Wheatley is apparently so bad/raw that he can’t even get active on game day. Those two emergency acquisitions are total failures but they were probably long shots anyway.

Overlooked in all of this mess is that none of the developmental guys they drafted/had on the practice squad last year have stuck.

One of the hallmarks of the Brady era was the team’s strong OL which often had strong starters or key backups who were undrafted team signings (Wendell, Neal, D.Andrews, Karras), lower round picks (Cannon, Koppen, Fleming) or scrap heap guys picked up from other teams (Connolly, Ashworth, Gorin, Yates, Hochstein). Now obviously finding a Neal or Andrews is very hard, but they can’t even find a Gorin or Yates -emergency guys who can at least get you through a few games let alone passable short term stop gaps like Ashworth. I’m sure a lot of it is Scarnecchia leaving and the general decline of OL talent across the league but they haven’t found a diamond in the rough at OL since Andrews despite yearly shots on them. Coupled with injuries/busts in the limited high value draft picks spent on OL (Wynn, Strange), it’s been a disaster in personnel acquisition, development and retention.
 

Deathofthebambino

Drive Carefully
SoSH Member
Apr 12, 2005
42,095
the problem being that once you get to the summer, it’s almost impossible to fix an OL. All they could really do is hope that Onwenu and Strange got back healthy and they could patch together a RT

I think they thought that a Brown/Strange/Andrews/Onwenu/Anderson would be pretty solid with some upside to improve if Mafi or Sow developed and thats a reasonable stance.
How bad is Jake Andrews to not even see the field? He was drafted ahead of both Mafi and Sow. Listed as a center, but actually played more guard (1,741 snaps to 1,052 at center) in college, and gave up only 6 sacks in like 1,600 dropbacks. And some draft guys thought he was better suited at guard anyway.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/sr-prospect/jake-andrews-ed7c07c8-8d4f-4268-a052-a60183b1a6bc/
 

tims4wins

PN23's replacement
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
37,680
Hingham, MA
One of the hallmarks of the Brady era was the team’s strong OL which often had strong starters or key backups who were undrafted team signings (Wendell, Neal, D.Andrews, Karras), lower round picks (Cannon, Koppen, Fleming) or scrap heap guys picked up from other teams (Connolly, Ashworth, Gorin, Yates, Hochstein). Now obviously finding a Neal or Andrews is very hard, but they can’t even find a Gorin or Yates -emergency guys who can at least get you through a few games let alone passable short term stop gaps like Ashworth. I’m sure a lot of it is Scarnecchia leaving and the general decline of OL talent across the league but they haven’t found a diamond in the rough at OL since Andrews despite yearly shots on them. Coupled with injuries/busts in the limited high value draft picks spent on OL (Wynn, Strange), it’s been a disaster in personnel acquisition, development and retention.
I'm beginning to wonder just how much of a factor Brady was with having a "good" O-Line. I mean, I always knew he was a A factor, but maybe he was THE factor?
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
2,023
Isle of Plum
I'm beginning to wonder just how much of a factor Brady was with having a "good" O-Line. I mean, I always knew he was a A factor, but maybe he was THE factor?
Brady & Scar.

I think they could always manage a couple seconds without free runners because its all they really had to do. There were some ok run blocking teams, but mostly not.
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,874
I don't understand why people are puzzled by Mac continuing to start. There is no evidence that Zappe is any better, and they are starting to incorporate Cunningham slowly into the offense. Benching Mac solves nothing and most likely gives the team a worst chance to win.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,563
around the way
I don't understand why people are puzzled by Mac continuing to start. There is no evidence that Zappe is any better, and they are starting to incorporate Cunningham slowly into the offense. Benching Mac solves nothing and most likely gives the team a worst chance to win.
1. A lot of folks are now looking for worse chances to win, because tank.
2. It makes the people angry at Mac feel better to see him on the bench miserable too.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
43,098
AZ
I'm beginning to wonder just how much of a factor Brady was with having a "good" O-Line. I mean, I always knew he was a A factor, but maybe he was THE factor?
So difficult to know, but the units that he had were always very complimentary and smart. Our non-linemen were good blockers, like our TEs and Develin. Our running backs were amazing at blitz pickup. It all worked as a great unit.

I also think a string of highly prepared and excellent slot guys, who Brady developed a strong rapport with over years and practiced with until everything was muscle memory, was a huge factor. A great slot guy with quick-twitch skills who has ESP with an accurate QB really helps neutralize the defensive line and supports the OL.
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
11,136
I don't understand why people are puzzled by Mac continuing to start. There is no evidence that Zappe is any better, and they are starting to incorporate Cunningham slowly into the offense. Benching Mac solves nothing and most likely gives the team a worst chance to win.
How does a coach claim ball security is the most important aspect to winning and continue to trot out the league leader in INTs and if we are being honest he has had good INT luck not bad. Should easily have a few more than he already does this season. Give Will Grier a shot, sign someone off another teams PS. There is plenty of evidence that Mac is broken right now and no signs of it getting better.
Perhaps it will do Mac some good to watch a couple games from the press box. Whatever they are currently doing is leading to the worst Pats team since the Rod Rust era.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
I don't understand why people are puzzled by Mac continuing to start. There is no evidence that Zappe is any better, and they are starting to incorporate Cunningham slowly into the offense. Benching Mac solves nothing and most likely gives the team a worst chance to win.
Yea I don’t get it, and all the “I’m done with Mac it’s time to move on” posts are redundant. No one disagrees, but what are we going to do instead? This is a lost season. There is literally no point in playing Grier or Zappe, because either they’ll be even more painfully bad, or, best case, they win us like an extra two games and hurt our draft slot. Like if we start Grier and go 5-12 instead of 3-14, will people really be happy?

Cunningham is different, I’m intrigued by him
 

Kliq

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 31, 2013
22,874
How does a coach claim ball security is the most important aspect to winning and continue to trot out the league leader in INTs and if we are being honest he has had good INT luck not bad. Should easily have a few more than he already does this season. Give Will Grier a shot, sign someone off another teams PS. There is plenty of evidence that Mac is broken right now and no signs of it getting better.
Perhaps it will do Mac some good to watch a couple games from the press box. Whatever they are currently doing is leading to the worst Pats team since the Rod Rust era.
I see no evidence that any of the replacement options would be better at taking care of the ball than Mac. I don't see this at all of BB being hypocritical at all.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
411
Brady & Scar.

I think they could always manage a couple seconds without free runners because its all they really had to do. There were some ok run blocking teams, but mostly not.
Scar is really it for me. He really had the special sauce to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Not that everyone on the OL was awful during the Brady years (in fact, many were quite good), but I think Scar could take a scrap heap guy or late round guy and make them at least competent/league average. The line fell apart when he retired the first time and when he came back the Pats started going to SBs again. That's not all on Scar (obviously), but he had a knack for making the unit as a whole successful with whatever pieces he had.
I also, for whatever reason, thought the Pats ran a lot of max protect stuff early in Brady's career. Obviously once Brady became Brady they didn't have to do that quite so much. And his receivers were better at getting open than the WR corps now.
 

ifmanis5

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 29, 2007
64,041
Rotten Apple
Mac deciding he's the guy who should be playing idiotic hero ball is really grinding my gears. Mahomes can get away with that stupid stuff. Mac cannot. Yet Mac pretends he can. The lack of self-awareness is galling as hell. For a guy who was esteemed to have football smarts, he really is an incredibly stupid player.
Totally agreed.
Just wanted to add that the pass you are describing above was EXACTLY the pick Mac threw in practice that made the defense irate and yell at him. Mac thinks he's Mahomes or Allen but is is definitely not anywhere near their class and needs to adjust his game to that fact. He's yet to do it and I haven't seen evidence of it changing. I also don't think too many players on the team respect him and play hard for him. The overall lack of urgency on the offensive side reflects that.
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
36,254
306, row 14
How does a coach claim ball security is the most important aspect to winning and continue to trot out the league leader in INTs and if we are being honest he has had good INT luck not bad. Should easily have a few more than he already does this season. Give Will Grier a shot, sign someone off another teams PS. There is plenty of evidence that Mac is broken right now and no signs of it getting better.
Perhaps it will do Mac some good to watch a couple games from the press box. Whatever they are currently doing is leading to the worst Pats team since the Rod Rust era.
Because the rest of the QB options suck too?

I mean they were OK waiving Zappe prior to the season, he's looked awful in 2 relief appearnces, and was inactive yesterday. I think it's pretty obvious they think Zappe is worse than Mac. Grier has been here for like 6 weeks and at this point has been able to get above Zappe on the depth chart. It seems clear Cunningham isn't ready for anything beyond wildcat stuff.

Even at 1-5 Bill is going to try to win every game. You may not agree with that, but that's how the man is wired. He's going to start the QB who he thinks gives him the best chance to win. Right now he has 4 shitty options so he's going with the least shitty in his opinion. Maybe at some point with losses piling up, he'll make a move but I doubt it. The guy trotted Cam Newton out for the final 2 games of the 2020 year when they were eliminated instead of taking a look at Stidham.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
Totally agreed.
Just wanted to add that the pass you are describing above was EXACTLY the pick Mac threw in practice that made the defense irate and yell at him. Mac thinks he's Mahomes or Allen but is is definitely not anywhere near their class and needs to adjust his game to that fact. He's yet to do it and I haven't seen evidence of it changing. I also don't think too many players on the team respect him and play hard for him. The overall lack of urgency on the offensive side reflects that.
Was his pick really like that? To me it seemed like a good decision in that it’s the type of throw literally any QB should make. Wide open rolling to you’re right? Why is that a bad choice? He can’t make the throw and that’s way worse than him making a bad decision
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
411
Because the rest of the QB options suck too?

I mean they were OK waiving Zappe prior to the season, he's looked awful in 2 relief appearnces, and was inactive yesterday. I think it's pretty obvious they think Zappe is worse than Mac. Grier has been here for like 6 weeks and at this point has been able to get above Zappe on the depth chart. It seems clear Cunningham isn't ready for anything beyond wildcat stuff.

Even at 1-5 Bill is going to try to win every game. You may not agree with that, but that's how the man is wired. He's going to start the QB who he thinks gives him the best chance to win. Right now he has 4 shitty options so he's going with the least shitty in his opinion. Maybe at some point with losses piling up, he'll make a move but I doubt it. The guy trotted Cam Newton out for the final 2 games of the 2020 year when they were eliminated instead of taking a look at Stidham.
I don't doubt this, but he also does stuff like benching Douglas to prove a point, not playing Boutte for being out of bounds, benching Butler in the Eagles SB. Welker was benched for part of a game for the foot comments about Ryan. Stevenson was benched as a rookie for fumbling. So he wants to win every game... but he's not above making a point. I think there is some consternation because he could also be proving a point to the rest of the team by benching Mac, but isn't.
 

cshea

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 15, 2006
36,254
306, row 14
I don't doubt this, but he also does stuff like benching Douglas to prove a point, not playing Boutte for being out of bounds, benching Butler in the Eagles SB. Welker was benched for part of a game for the foot comments about Ryan. Stevenson was benched as a rookie for fumbling. So he wants to win every game... but he's not above making a point. I think there is some consternation because he could also be proving a point to the rest of the team by benching Mac, but isn't.
It’s a lot easier to bench a RB or WR than it is a quarterback.
 

j44thor

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
11,136
It’s a lot easier to bench a RB or WR than it is a quarterback.
It's really not though, teams just act like it is. Teams would probably be better off benching mediocre QBs more often than they do. Who had PJ Walker beating the 49ers for the first time this year or Tyrod Taylor nearly pulling out the win over BUF. SF only turned to Purdy when Jimmy G got injured, if Jimmy doesn't get injured do they even make it to the NFC Championship game? For some reason teams like to stick with the devil they know even when they know they can't win with them. It is oddly bizarre and not a Patriots only issue. Hell the Saints played a 30% Carr instead of a 100% Winston and got smashed by TB a few weeks ago.
The difference between a bad starting QB and the backup is typically not that great. Obviously if you have a top tier starter that is a different convo.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
I mean, BB did bench Jones this season. A few times in fact. So it's apparently pretty easy to bench Jones too if BB wants to.
Do you think benching Jones gives us a better chance to win? If no, and it’s pretty obviously no, then BB won’t do it. I don’t know why we keep having this discussion when the alternative is fucking Bailey Zappe. And Nash Griers brother isn’t gonna be any better. So what’s the point other than you want to watch someone else suck? Which I would like to, but it’s not going to happen, so why do we keep talking about it?
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
411
Do you think benching Jones gives us a better chance to win? If no, and it’s pretty obviously no, then BB won’t do it. I don’t know why we keep having this discussion when the alternative is fucking Bailey Zappe. And Nash Griers brother isn’t gonna be any better. So what’s the point other than you want to watch someone else suck? Which I would like to, but it’s not going to happen, so why do we keep talking about it?
Why do you think BB benched Jones twice? Was it to give the team the best chance to win those games?
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
Why do you think BB benched Jones twice? Was it to give the team the best chance to win those games?
Both times he was benched our win probability approached 0. We simply can’t have Bailey Zappe start 11 weeks. The patriots suck, they are still a professional football team and aren’t going to outright punt every single game. If anyone thinks benching Mac will help us win, I would love to hear their suggestion for who we start instead. And if someone wants to bench Mac because they want to lose as many games as possible, I respect that opinion and agree with it, but BB won’t do it
 

rodderick

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 24, 2009
12,946
Belo Horizonte - Brazil
Do you think benching Jones gives us a better chance to win? If no, and it’s pretty obviously no, then BB won’t do it. I don’t know why we keep having this discussion when the alternative is fucking Bailey Zappe. And Nash Griers brother isn’t gonna be any better. So what’s the point other than you want to watch someone else suck? Which I would like to, but it’s not going to happen, so why do we keep talking about it?
I think it's hard to do significantly worse than Mac Jones considering no QB in the league as of now has performed significantly worse. Ridder/Wilson/Tannehill are the only guys even in that conversation and they've been similar. That being the case, I'd be in favor of giving any of the backups two weeks of starter prep and starter practice reps to see what they can do. I don't doubt Mac has likely shown in practice he's the best QB on the team, but at this point what do they have to lose by giving the other guys a shot? Not like Mac Jones will factor into the team's medium term future anyway.
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
I think it's hard to do significantly worse than Mac Jones considering no QB in the league as of now has performed significantly worse. Ridder/Wilson/Tannehill are the only guys even in that conversation and they've been similar. That being the case, I'd be in favor of giving any of the backups two weeks of starter prep and starter practice reps to see what they can do. I don't doubt Mac has likely shown in practice he's the best QB on the team, but at this point what do they have to lose by giving the other guys a shot? Not like Mac Jones will factor into the team's medium term future anyway.
My issue with it is the team is going absolutely nowhere, and getting the highest pick possible is what we realistically should be rooting for (on game day I’ll never root for a loss, but I can say it now). Everyone clamoring for Zappe or Grier because “they can’t do worse” are missing the point. Even if they do better, we aren’t going anywhere, and while Mac sucks, he’s at least backup quality. Zappe and Grier really aren’t, there’s no benefit if they do well, yet people want to switch just to switch. Again, if you want to switch because you think Zappe or Grier will lose more games, I get that. But “let’s start Grier because maybe he’ll be better” is a stupid train of thought, because him being better will only hurt us in the draft
 

Bergs

funky and cold
SoSH Member
Jul 22, 2005
21,729
I think it's hard to do significantly worse than Mac Jones considering no QB in the league as of now has performed significantly worse.
None of the rest of them have to play for the 2023 New England Patriots.
 

astrozombie

New Member
Sep 12, 2022
411
My issue with it is the team is going absolutely nowhere, and getting the highest pick possible is what we realistically should be rooting for (on game day I’ll never root for a loss, but I can say it now). Everyone clamoring for Zappe or Grier because “they can’t do worse” are missing the point. Even if they do better, we aren’t going anywhere, and while Mac sucks, he’s at least backup quality. Zappe and Grier really aren’t, there’s no benefit if they do well, yet people want to switch just to switch. Again, if you want to switch because you think Zappe or Grier will lose more games, I get that. But “let’s start Grier because maybe he’ll be better” is a stupid train of thought, because him being better will only hurt us in the draft
So you want Bill to try to win every game, but also lose as many games as possible for a better draft pick. If that is the case, you must really be loving this season...
The other place you are losing me with your argument (which started with "Bill is trying to win every game" and is now at "He shouldn't start Grier in case Grier accidentally wins games and hurts draft stock") is the fact that Zappe, Cunningham and Grier might be worse than Mac - but they could also be better. Maybe Grier turns out to be more competent and is our presumptive backup going forward. Maybe Cunningham comes in for more than 3 plays a game (one of which is a handoff) and after a few jitters can start making plays. A lot of people, myself included, have hit the point where Mac 1) isn't the answer and 2) has had enough of a body of work to show that he is not the answer. Grier and Cunningham (and Zappe) also might suck, but don't have the body of work to show how bad they suck. Brett Favre had a pretty shitty first season and turned it around with a fresh start. I'm not saying Grier/Cunningham/Zappe are gonna be Brett Favre, but we know Mac is not the answer at this point and we have no idea whether those other 3 are any good - why not play them and find out?
 

azsoxpatsfan

Does not enjoy the go
SoSH Member
May 23, 2014
4,817
So you want Bill to win every game, but also lose as many games as possible for a better draft pick. If that is the case, you must really be loving this season...
The other place you are losing me with your argument (which started with "Bill is trying to win every game" and is now at "He shouldn't start Grier in case Grier accidentally wins games and hurts draft stock") is the fact that Zappe, Cunningham and Grier might be worse than Mac - but they could also be better. Maybe Grier turns out to be more competent and is our presumptive backup going forward. Maybe Cunningham comes in for more than 3 plays a game (one of which is a handoff) and after a few jitters can start making plays. A lot of people, myself included, have hit the point where Mac 1) isn't the answer and 2) has had enough of a body of work to show that he is not the answer. Grier and Cunningham (and Zappe) also might suck, but don't have the body of work to show how bad they suck. Brett Favre had a pretty shitty first season and turned it around with a fresh start. I'm not saying Grier/Cunningham/Zappe are gonna be Brett Favre, but we know Mac is not the answer at this point and we have no idea whether those other 3 are any good - why not play them and find out?
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. My preference (rationally, not on game day) is we should lose. I don’t think Bill is willing to do that, it’s not that I don’t think he should just that I don’t think he will.

I also think, and this isn’t a hot take, that having an elite QB is the fastest way to become a perennially contending team. Maybe our disagreement lies in whether Zappe Grier or Cunningham could be that. I think they have a combined 0.0% chance of becoming a franchise QB, so I don’t see the purpose in running them out there hoping to win a few more games. I also think BB is trying to win games, so him not playing them tells me that they’re exactly as bad as I think they are
 

MuppetAsteriskTalk

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 19, 2015
5,451
Scar is really it for me. He really had the special sauce to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Not that everyone on the OL was awful during the Brady years (in fact, many were quite good), but I think Scar could take a scrap heap guy or late round guy and make them at least competent/league average. The line fell apart when he retired the first time and when he came back the Pats started going to SBs again. That's not all on Scar (obviously), but he had a knack for making the unit as a whole successful with whatever pieces he had.
I also, for whatever reason, thought the Pats ran a lot of max protect stuff early in Brady's career. Obviously once Brady became Brady they didn't have to do that quite so much. And his receivers were better at getting open than the WR corps now.
Not to downplay how good Scar was, but they did win a SB without him.