I think this is real woj
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1719233117100142839?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ
View: https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1719233117100142839?s=46&t=WNUE08imv33kOt1BO6WMzQ
Harden to Clips
- Thread starter luckiestman
- Start date
No info on the compensation and no reporting from Shams or others yet.
Wonder who blinked first - I'm guessing it was Morey, but we'll find out. 76ers really had no leverage here. Harden already on his way to Jumbo's Clown Room.
The Clippers are a weird team - would have been an absolute bomb squad if this was 2017.
Wonder who blinked first - I'm guessing it was Morey, but we'll find out. 76ers really had no leverage here. Harden already on his way to Jumbo's Clown Room.
The Clippers are a weird team - would have been an absolute bomb squad if this was 2017.
Looking around the league it’s hard to think who it could possibly be. Someone like Derozen or Lavine if the Bulls struggle? That isn’t likely to move the needle for Philly.
Hope Embiid likes OKC. They have endless picks to trade and the superstar to pair with him.
Siakam, Embiid and Maxey would be interesting— in exchange for every draft pick the Sixers can possibly muster. Other than that: yeah, I don't see the avenue for Phi keeping Embiid.
KAT is the guy often discussed as a star who could end up being movable this year---but not early in the year, and he's just not a fit next to Embiid. I do think Siakam is a pretty interesting fit - anyone have any idea if he and Embiid have any personal relationship?
I think what this package says as much as anything is that Philly is at least willing to bet on Maxey as the number two and hope there's a FA this summer they can chase with cap room. Not a punt on this year, but perhaps more a bet on internal development and staying flexible in case the right guy becomes available? Dumping Tucker in the deal not inconsistent with that (though at this point, not sure how much better he is than the pupu platter of Morris, Covington, Batum they got back).
Clips now have Harden, Westbrook, George, and Kawhi...you gotta give them this, it is interesting if not likely to work.
I think what this package says as much as anything is that Philly is at least willing to bet on Maxey as the number two and hope there's a FA this summer they can chase with cap room. Not a punt on this year, but perhaps more a bet on internal development and staying flexible in case the right guy becomes available? Dumping Tucker in the deal not inconsistent with that (though at this point, not sure how much better he is than the pupu platter of Morris, Covington, Batum they got back).
Clips now have Harden, Westbrook, George, and Kawhi...you gotta give them this, it is interesting if not likely to work.
An unprotected first round pick is a great get for Morey, especially if and when the Clippers are in their next transition period after the PG/Kawhi/Russ era. But this pick 5 years into the future does not keep Embiid in town.
Morey made this bed of course but the Sixers got about the most out of the Clippers as they could with that pick being so potentially valuable. It all depends now on how he flips those contracts at the deadline to add a 3rd piece around Maxey and Embiid along with another veteran like say a Brogdon. He has some stuff to work with having a legit Top-2 in place. I wouldn't sleep on the Sixers just yet.
Getting literally anything of value for Jim Harden in 2023 is good for Morey. That guy is a known quantity at this point: playoff poison.
If the Clippers implode in 1-2 years, an unprotected pick and swap from them could get you a very good player.
The Celtics got peak Kyrie for one bad team's unprotected pick.
That seems like a good read on their thinking. Crazy how things have turned out for that franchise.
Clippers have also been retroactively awarded the 2017 NBA title. Sorry, @Sam Ray Not . I don't make the rules.
Well, we got the peak Kyrie Experience, at any rate.
I would argue that the Nets got the PKE & we were slightly pre-prime.
I don't think a Clippers pick in 4 years is going to be that valuable for similar reasons to the reason they made the Harden trade. They want to compete ever year, have an unlimited budget, & even if things blow up, they still will be able to get a return on Kawhi & PG in time for the pick to not be that valuable.
But it had to be done.
Wow, Philly had to give up Tucker too. That 2028 pick has decent value but the player return is not good. Amazing they couldn't get Powell at least.
NY sports radio a few days back was putting forth a Knicks/6ers trade centered around Embiid for Randle, Barrett, and picks.
I imagine this idea will get batted around again this week.
I imagine this idea will get batted around again this week.
The problem the Knicks have is their picks are all kind of 'meh' so someone like Morey is likely to seek picks with more upside. Trading for Randle/Barrett on top of retaining Maxey is a good way to try to win 35-45 games. Basically, exactly what Sixers are likely to NOT want to do. And you have to think Utah/OKC (with a ton better and more assets) will outbid Knicks unless Embiid simply refuses to go there. NOLA also can and might choose to outbid Knicks, and that's before getting to teams (like Toronto) wtih a more player-heavy package. Anything is possible but absent Embiid really forcing his way to NY they just don't have a very appealing asset set to get to his caliber of player - to me they are a lot more competitive for tier or two down from him, though they have a much more interesting young roster than they did a couple years ago.
If I were guessing, the Sixers first plan is to trade for a pending FA who they think they can resign (Siakam fits) to give them an Embiid/FA/Maxey core. Their less-preferred is to ship out Embiid for young upside guys and unencumbered picks to try to do a fast rebuild around Maxey. Their last option is to swap Embiid for mid-tier vets with the hope that you can then add a star somehow with the other picks (so, Maxey/Barrett/Randle as interim team with a bunch of picks you can staple to Randle to try to get KAT or some other star who comes available).
They've had pretty strong communication and alginment with Embiid to date---so some reason to think he may be on board the dump Harden/retool on the fly model. At least for now?
If I were guessing, the Sixers first plan is to trade for a pending FA who they think they can resign (Siakam fits) to give them an Embiid/FA/Maxey core. Their less-preferred is to ship out Embiid for young upside guys and unencumbered picks to try to do a fast rebuild around Maxey. Their last option is to swap Embiid for mid-tier vets with the hope that you can then add a star somehow with the other picks (so, Maxey/Barrett/Randle as interim team with a bunch of picks you can staple to Randle to try to get KAT or some other star who comes available).
They've had pretty strong communication and alginment with Embiid to date---so some reason to think he may be on board the dump Harden/retool on the fly model. At least for now?
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Siakam makes a lot of sense positionally, and the Clippers pick/swap + whatever other pick the Sixers got would be a very good get for Toronto in his last year with them, since they don't seem excited to extend him.
Eh, Zaza takes out Kawhi and we still handle them easily.
Seriously, even with a healthy Kawhi, the Warriors probably dispatch them. Only one ball, as they say.
Heck, you could argue the Warriors’ current roster minus seven years still beats their roster minus seven years, since CP3 back then was a top 5 NBA player. (14 y.o. Moody and Kuminga would be rough, tho…)
I don't know why some people act as if PJ Tucker was a positive asset in this trade. The Sixers are better just with him off the team and replaced with the pupu platter of guys they got.
Agreed. If I were a Sixers fan, I’d worry a bit about Marcus Morris stealing shots from Embiid and Maxey (and just being the general dickhead he is) but Batum and RoCo seem like pretty nice fits on their team. I wonder if they figure out a way to cast off Morris.
Umm through 3 games PJ has a +21.4 on/off. Surely this is a large enough sample size to determine that he is their most indispensable player over guys like Embiid (+3.6) & Maxey (-2.3).
Wait, what are you talking about? OKC owns the Clips' 2026 pick, the Clips just sent Philly their 2028 1st-rounder and "a swap", presumably the 2027 or 2029 first-rounder (2025 1st is already encumbered with swap rights to OKC). I haven't seen anything about OKC being involved, just speculation that they'd be an Embiid destination.
edit: I'll be damned, a bit of clarity below.
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Morey did pretty well under the circumstances.
A couple of Firsts/Seconds/swap for towing away a headache, give the PG keys to Maxey, and see how it plays out until the trade deadline.
Philly has more avenues today to build around Embiid over the next 9 months then they did yesterday.
A couple of Firsts/Seconds/swap for towing away a headache, give the PG keys to Maxey, and see how it plays out until the trade deadline.
Philly has more avenues today to build around Embiid over the next 9 months then they did yesterday.
I think this is a great return for Philly. Harden is a borderline negative asset. He's an expensive mope that can still score and create, but only on very specific terms and his playoff record is terrible. He's a totally toxic presence, and turning him into some decent role players + draft picks is a total win.
Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
1m
Further trade details: The Clippers are sending a 2027 first-round pick swap to Oklahoma City, clearing way for OKC to move a protected 2026 first-round pick to the 76ers, sources said. The Clippers are sending a 2024 and a 2029 second-round pick to the Sixers in the deal too, sources said.
@wojespn
1m
Further trade details: The Clippers are sending a 2027 first-round pick swap to Oklahoma City, clearing way for OKC to move a protected 2026 first-round pick to the 76ers, sources said. The Clippers are sending a 2024 and a 2029 second-round pick to the Sixers in the deal too, sources said.
See amfox's post above mine. OKC very involved, looks like they did a smart deal to get two shots at unprotected Clippers' upside in 2026 and 2027 instead of just 2026.
76ers start with...
Simmons
Seth
'22 1st (deferred to '23 & became 28th pick)
'27 protected 1st
& turn that into Harden & sign PJ via tampering at the cost of their '23 & '24 2nds.
Then trade that for...
Batum
RoCo
MaMo
'28 1st (Clippers)
'29 swap (Clippers)
'26 protected 1st (Thunder)
'24 2nd
'29 2nd
But Morey gets lauded on both ends?
Simmons
Seth
'22 1st (deferred to '23 & became 28th pick)
'27 protected 1st
& turn that into Harden & sign PJ via tampering at the cost of their '23 & '24 2nds.
Then trade that for...
Batum
RoCo
MaMo
'28 1st (Clippers)
'29 swap (Clippers)
'26 protected 1st (Thunder)
'24 2nd
'29 2nd
But Morey gets lauded on both ends?
Indeed, just edited accordingly. Hat tip, you were ahead of the thread on that one.
Someone explain this to me. Presti basically rolled back his wager against the Clippers' fortunes by one year, acquiring 2027 swap rights in exchange for sending the 2026 pick (which he owns outright) along to Philly, which he did while retaining some protections for the 2026 pick, such that there are (probably) some lottery results that would see him retain a top result in the 2026 lottery and ALSO get to roll the dice in 2027 with the Clippers' chips? And for this increased... let's call it draft Expected Value, all he has to send out is the bulk of the probable outcomes for the 2026 pick, but not the bulk of the valuable outcomes?
Presti-digitation, indeed. I guess from the Clippers perspective their 2026 is already gone and their 2027 will be gone with this trade anyway, so they don't care. But why would Philly prefer to receive a protected 2026 first-rounder instead of unprotected 2027 swap rights, or a 2028 unprotected pick?
I can hardly keep track anymore, but doesn't Philly send its '27 first rounder to Brooklyn? If so, then they couldn't take a '27 swap.
He gets paid millions of dollars to coach a basketball team. And pg, Kawhi and russ are great in the locker room. Oh and he's literally just sitting there until the lakers job opens up while still getting paid those millions. He's beyond fine.
As someone brought up above, balmer has infinite money. He bought the forum from dolan, Just to build a stadium down the street and still be third fiddle next door to the rams and chargers. So theyll never truly bottom out and always be middling in the 6-10 range.
This trade makes them a little better. But ultimately, they will still flame out in the playoffs.
This trade makes them a little better. But ultimately, they will still flame out in the playoffs.
Yeah, it's an odd trade that I don't really like for either team. It only seems optimal for the Clips as an insurance policy against one of Leonard and George getting injured— as they always do— in the playoffs. But: a team with Harden as its second best player isn't going anywhere anyways. We've already seen that movie.
I get it for the Sixers, but— as discussed above— any draft pick coming out of LA has finite value as a trade asset. And there are teams right now that are so so so loaded with draft picks, I'm not sure how you plan on winning a bidding war for somebody like Siakam.
Edit: Kevin Pelton at ESPN raises the idea that the Clippers could wind up getting unselfish, bought-in, playmaking James Harden— the guy we saw in the first half of last season. I have to admit, I'd totally forgotten about that guy, so lasered into my brain is fat, don't-give-a-shit James Harden from the end of the season.
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So the thunder are apparently giving the worst of the Clippers/Rockets/thunder pick in 2026. And getting the 2027 pick swap in return. that makes sense, as it is very likely a pick in the 20s they are giving up
View: https://twitter.com/DerekBodnerNBA/status/1719342495920799858?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1719342495920799858%7Ctwgr%5Ee4a36ad4dbf9db8a3494294b4a67531c1a0d0b23%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2325847start%3D140
While there is no predicting what James Harden will do, and the above cannot be ruled out, I would say it is a very poor percentage bet to assume you get a team-focused, motivated playmaking Harden for any length of time...that animal has been spotted for a couple of months total over the last decade.
That isn't really criticism of the trade---if you have the Clips roster and limited asset stock, betting a far-off pick on the (say) 15% chance you get ring-focused Harden AND that guy, PG, Kawhi give you a (say) 10% title shot still may be better than any other near-term option for them. It also just isn't very likely to come together.
In other words, your 'best move' may still not be 'likely to succeed' in the sense of a title. But you should still do it
I would argue the clippers need the best version of harden to just compete for a playoff spot this year. I dont think this is about a title.
I wouldn't overthink the OKC angle. As most know they have a lot of draft assets (aka NBA crypto) so they get "paid" for facilitating the deal. For the Thunder this is likely position squaring more than wagering on one draft/potential draft spot versus another.
Great trade for OKC. They give up a mediocre pick and get unlimited lottery upside in a year when PG and Kawhi will be 37 and 36.