Harden to Clips

[InstaFace]

I can hardly keep track anymore, but doesn't Philly send its '27 first rounder to Brooklyn? If so, then they couldn't take a '27 swap.

Good point. The irony is awesome that they had to send more to Brooklyn to acquire a disaffected James Harden than they were able to recoup to unload an equally-disaffected James Harden a few years later, such that what they gave up in the first instance interfered with their ability to get max value in the second instance.

So the thunder are apparently giving the worst of the Clippers/Rockets/thunder pick in 2026. And getting the 2027 pick swap in return. that makes sense, as it is very likely a pick in the 20s they are giving up

OK so the bottom line here is that Philly was made to eat a shit sandwich on the trade terms? Is that what I should be taking away? Their net was:

- 2028 LAC unprotected FRP
- 2029 LAC FRP swap rights
- 2026 least-favorable-of-3 FRP via OKC, for which LAC paid with their 2027 FRP swap rights
- 2024 convoluted second-round pick (probably IND's)
- 2029 LAC second-round pick
- Salary filler

I guess that's in the ballpark of what they sent to Brooklyn. And just about the max that LAC could do (they could've added their 2030 FRP, which they still own for the moment).

 

[PedroKsBambino]

I would argue the clippers need the best version of harden to just compete for a playoff spot this year. I dont think this is about a title.

Perhaps; as you know well the number of games you get from your top two guys is such a massive variable there's almost no way to project them with confidence!

I fairly healthy and reliable PG/Kawhi team is a no-brainer playoff team with home-court. But that combination is unlikely....

 

[lovegtm]

Good point. The irony is awesome that they had to send more to Brooklyn to acquire a disaffected James Harden than they were able to recoup to unload an equally-disaffected James Harden a few years later, such that what they gave up in the first instance interfered with their ability to get max value in the second instance.


OK so the bottom line here is that Philly was made to eat a shit sandwich on the trade terms? Is that what I should be taking away? Their net was:

- 2028 LAC unprotected FRP
- 2029 LAC FRP swap rights
- 2026 least-favorable-of-3 FRP via OKC, for which LAC paid with their 2027 FRP swap rights
- 2024 convoluted second-round pick (probably IND's)
- 2029 LAC second-round pick
- Salary filler

I guess that's in the ballpark of what they sent to Brooklyn. And just about the max that LAC could do (they could've added their 2030 FRP, which they still own for the moment).

Given the value of unprotected picks from aging teams with no assets, not getting the 2030 pick from LAC is a big deal, and probably would have added 40-80% to the deal's value.

 

[InstaFace]

That isn't really criticism of the trade---if you have the Clips roster and limited asset stock, betting a far-off pick on the (say) 15% chance you get ring-focused Harden AND that guy, PG, Kawhi give you a (say) 10% title shot still may be better than any other near-term option for them. It also just isn't very likely to come together.

Russell Westbrook says he's going to use this disrespectful post as motivation.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Russell Westbrook says he's going to use this disrespectful post as motivation.

He probably would; in my vidw, he also is nowhere near the player those guys are at this point in his career. But he is a lot better about actually being on the court, so I give him a ton of credit for that.

 

[ElUno20]

Perhaps; as you know well the number of games you get from your top two guys is such a massive variable there's almost no way to project them with confidence!

I fairly healthy and reliable PG/Kawhi team is a no-brainer playoff team with home-court. But that combination is unlikely....

Exactly. PG last year got hurt in literally the game the team had finally rounded into form and looked deadly.

James is home so he'll ball out but mr glass and mr glass 2, we'll see if they can stay healthy for 60 games much less 82.

 

[ElUno20]

He probably would; in my vidw, he also is nowhere near the player those guys are at this point in his career. But he is a lot better about actually being on the court, so I give him a ton of credit for that.

Russ has an odd role on this team. His age and ability would say he doesnt matter much but he's clearly the leader. He brings everyone together, he's incredibly critical.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Just a side note, but I hope whoever keeps track of draft capital in the OKC front office gets paid enough.

 

[Average Game James]

Just a side note, but I hope whoever keeps track of draft capital in the OKC front office gets paid enough.

I'm sure that person has the rights to at least a couple future firsts...

 

[Saints Rest]

Don't Russ and Harden overlap in their skillsets a fair amount? Isn't that what sent Harden elsewhere from OKC way back when?

 

[Jeff Van GULLY]

Does anyone think this will work for the Clippers? The prior mentioned Westbrook-Harden dynamic we know doesn't work as we've already seen it in Houston.

I guess I could squint and see Harden work when George or Kawhi get hurt again and they need a ballhog but that's still redundant with Westbrook!

 

[nattysez]

The way the Warriors are using CP3 so far is a good model for the Clips and Westbrook. Use him as the sixth man. This both lets him be ball-dominant and cook against second-teamers who he can still dominate. Just have to get Russ onboard.

I don't think Russ and Harden can be on the floor together.

 

[lovegtm]

Russ is a minimum player now. The Clippers don't care much how he fits with anyone who is elite enough to matter.

 

[bellowthecat]

I think it works. Replacing their corp of aging big wing JAGs with Harden helps both their floor (mostly) and their upside (somewhat). Seems like a reasonable play for them since they are already so deeply committed this group. Short of adding a top 5 player though it still all comes down to the availability of Kawhi Leonard and Paul George.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

Harden will work fine until he doesn’t.

I’m not sure what alternatives LAC really had, though, closing their eyes and hoping that Harden manages to get through a season giving a shit and not deciding he wants to be on yet another team is as good of a plan as any they could realistically devise with this core and their asset/cap situation.

 

[luckiestman]

I like this move for the Clips. Harden pisses me off because if he cared he would be one of the very best players, since he doesn’t care, he is only a great player. He will choke in playoffs but that matters less when he is 3rd option in crunch time.

 

[lovegtm]

Lost in all the "Harden quit on another team!" talk:

- he probably stays in Brooklyn if Kyrie gets the vax
- he definitely stays in Philly if they pay him (which Morey almost certainly said they would, in summer 2022)

What were his realistic options after he took a discount rather than getting paid in 2022 (which he would have, on the open market), and then Morey reneged?

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Lost in all the "Harden quit on another team!" talk:

- he probably stays in Brooklyn if Kyrie gets the vax
- he definitely stays in Philly if they pay him (which Morey almost certainly said they would, in summer 2022)

What were his realistic options after he took a discount rather than getting paid in 2022 (which he would have, on the open market), and then Morey reneged?

Well, opting in was not something he had to do - I get why he did, but it is not adding to my sympathy for him. Also - he is equally to blame for the surely-illegal agreement with Morey, and I'm sure his agent warned him it is unenforceable.

Lots of players have had to play with Kyrie - can you name two other guys who literally stopped playing rather than do so? now, Kyrie is impossible and i get your point that Harden wasn't the worst actor there, but he is still doing something no one else has done. Well, no one other than Ben Simmons I guess. So while maybe one can sustain the case the Harden stuff is a little more nuanced....he's far, far, far away from being mischaracterzied in the media.

 

[Euclis20]

Lost in all the "Harden quit on another team!" talk:

- he probably stays in Brooklyn if Kyrie gets the vax
- he definitely stays in Philly if they pay him (which Morey almost certainly said they would, in summer 2022)

What were his realistic options after he took a discount rather than getting paid in 2022 (which he would have, on the open market), and then Morey reneged?

When you quit on 3 teams (2 of whom are title contenders) in less than 3 years, you don't get any benefit of the doubt. Yeah Kyrie is a shithead and Morey is a liar, but Harden is a choking baby. There's enough blame to go around, they all get some.

 

[Kliq]

People would think about Harden so differently if he and (or?) Kyrie hadn't gotten hurt in 2021. That Nets team would have cruised to a title, and he would have been (rightly) seen as a huge part of that.

They would have? You are putting a lot of faith in famously unreliable players in James Harden and Kyrie Irving. If they both got personality transplants, maybe.

 

[Cornboy14]

- he probably stays in Brooklyn if Kyrie gets the vax

An interesting NBA sliding doors moment (in addition to Kevin Durant having his toe on the 3pt line) was Giannis undercutting and injuring Kyrie in the 2021 playoffs (after Harden was hurt in Game 1). If either of those guys are healthy I think they win the series. Giannis doesn't title, maybe the Nets do.

The difference between a banner and a cautionary tale of woe is pretty thin.

 

[Euclis20]

An interesting NBA sliding doors moment (in addition to Kevin Durant having his toe on the 3pt line) was Giannis undercutting and injuring Kyrie in the 2021 playoffs (after Harden was hurt in Game 1). If either of those guys are healthy I think they win the series. Giannis doesn't title, maybe the Nets do.

The difference between a banner and a cautionary tale of woe is pretty thin.

If the Nets had beaten the Bucks and the next couple of years unfolded in the exact same way, Giannis would be seen as one of the most disappointing players in history. The best player in the league for the last 4-5 years goes 4 straight seasons without getting out of the 2nd round? While literally being afraid to shoot free throws in crunch time? It would get ugly.

 

[lovegtm]

They would have? You are putting a lot of faith in famously unreliable players in James Harden and Kyrie Irving. If they both got personality transplants, maybe.

They were so good that the personalities barely mattered. As Euclis said, one fewer injury and Giannis is (rightly) seen as a massive choker, as much as Embiid is now.

When you quit on 3 teams (2 of whom are title contenders) in less than 3 years, you don't get any benefit of the doubt. Yeah Kyrie is a shithead and Morey is a liar, but Harden is a choking baby. There's enough blame to go around, they all get some.

I guess....I really don't know what Harden could have done differently in the Philly situation. He tried to sacrifice money to improve the team, and then Morey completely fucked him. I'm aware the agreement is unenforceable etc, but what he did in summer 2022 was quite literally the exact opposite of quitting on a team.

He was overly trusting and committed to a team and its GM, and got burned hard financially as a result.

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

According to Basketball reference, the only Sixers players signed beyond this season are Embiid, Paul Reed and rookie Filip Petrusev.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHI.html

Morey has his work cut out for him.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

They were so good that the personalities barely mattered. As Euclis said, one fewer injury and Giannis is (rightly) seen as a massive choker, as much as Embiid is now.

I do think it's quite possible that Nets team would have won in spite of having Harden and Kyrie's personalities---there has never in the NBA been three scorers of that caliber in their prime on the same team at the same time. I am just not sure anyone could have stopped them, as the role players were also fine.

 

[Kliq]

I think you are all forgetting that Harden turns into a complete turtle in the playoffs and Kyrie is always a hurt/a psycho.

 

[nighthob]

If the Clippers implode in 1-2 years, an unprotected pick and swap from them could get you a very good player.

The Celtics got peak Kyrie for one bad team's unprotected pick.

In a deal that was a total steal for the Cavs.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

I wouldn't overthink the OKC angle. As most know they have a lot of draft assets (aka NBA crypto) so they get "paid" for facilitating the deal. For the Thunder this is likely position squaring more than wagering on one draft/potential draft spot versus another.

OKC has literally more draft picks than it can actually make and keep on a roster. I mean Poku, who once was the flavor of the week, is barely playing.

They need picks at the top of the draft and are going to do just about anything to get them.

According to Basketball reference, the only Sixers players signed beyond this season are Embiid, Paul Reed and rookie Filip Petrusev.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHI.html

Morey has his work cut out for him.

Didn't Petrusev go in the trade?

But while Maxey isn't signed yet, he will be just after PHI chases after the max and near-max free agent they think they will sign this summer from this list: https://hoopshype.com/lists/2024-nba-free-agent-rankings/

 

[InstaFace]

The difference between a banner and a cautionary tale of woe is pretty thin.

Welp, we found Gordon Hayward's burner account!

 

[Deathofthebambino]

They were so good that the personalities barely mattered. As Euclis said, one fewer injury and Giannis is (rightly) seen as a massive choker, as much as Embiid is now.


I guess....I really don't know what Harden could have done differently in the Philly situation. He tried to sacrifice money to improve the team, and then Morey completely fucked him. I'm aware the agreement is unenforceable etc, but what he did in summer 2022 was quite literally the exact opposite of quitting on a team.

He was overly trusting and committed to a team and its GM, and got burned hard financially as a result.

Yeah, James Harden was dumb to believe Morey.

But, the guy will have made $340,000,000 in salary in his NBA career at the end of this season, and Forbes estimates he's making another $22mil per year in endorsements.

I'm not shedding any tears for his financial problems. If he wants to make more money, go out and show up in the playoffs and the money will pour in even more. Or just, you know, show up.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Yeah, James Harden was dumb to believe Morey.

But, the guy will have made $340,000,000 in salary in his NBA career at the end of this season, and Forbes estimates he's making another $22mil per year in endorsements.

I'm not shedding any tears for his financial problems. If he wants to make more money, go out and show up in the playoffs and the money will pour in even more. Or just, you know, show up.

I'm the last guy to make excuses for Harden because I hate his game and the fat suit stuff when he's unhappy. Generally his acting out is embarrassing for a grown man.

That said, you don't have to be poor to be irate over being lied to.

 

[Tony C]

Russ has an odd role on this team. His age and ability would say he doesnt matter much but he's clearly the leader. He brings everyone together, he's incredibly critical.

Russ is a minimum player now. The Clippers don't care much how he fits with anyone who is elite enough to matter.

Both of these are true. I think it's a good trade for the Clippers as Harden will have all the incentive in the world to be the "good Harden" of the 1st half of last year. That said, while Russ is just a minimum guy, he's been really good for the Clippers and he has lockerroom weight being just being a minimum guy. I wouldn't be surprised if he's pissed to be demoted to the bench after having (finally!) adjusted his game to suit his teammates, and done a surprisingly good job of it...helped by the fact he's finally on a team where his skills complement rather than contradict the rest of the club.

Don't know how it'll all work out. A ton of respect for Ty Lue, so I suspect it'll be a good job.

 

[lovegtm]

I'm the last guy to make excuses for Harden because I hate his game and the fat suit stuff when he's unhappy. Generally his acting out is embarrassing for a grown man.

That said, you don't have to be poor to be irate over being lied to.

And it's not just the being lied to: he let himself be lied to specifically because he wanted to commit to a team.

Is James Harden a massive playoff choker?
Yes.

Is he rich, such that I don't feel sorry for him?
Yes.

Is he dumb for believing sleazeball Morey?
Yes.

Did he quit on the Sixers?
No. He tried to go all-in with them, and got fucked for trusting them.

 

[EvilEmpire]

Did he quit on the Sixers?
No. He tried to go all-in with them, and got fucked for trusting them.

I'm wondering if and how much there was a difference between Harden's first half and his second last season and if that had anything to do with team friction and Morey not paying him as expected. Maybe Harden really was all-in all season on team-first ball, but I'm curious what really went down.

I'm guessing that if Embiid wanted Harden to stick around long term, Morey would have paid him.

 

[DavidTai]

Maybe Harden really was all-in all season on team-first ball, but I'm curious what really went down.

Doc Rivers was on the Dan Patrick show recently and he mentioned Harden's attitude shifted when Jrue Holiday was picked as an all star instead of him.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/doc-rivers-speculates-james-harden-was-bothered-by-all-star-snub/ar-AA1iQQu9

 

[Buster Olney the Lonely]

Didn't Petrusev go in the trade?

But while Maxey isn't signed yet, he will be just after PHI chases after the max and near-max free agent they think they will sign this summer from this list: https://hoopshype.com/lists/2024-nba-free-agent-rankings/

Oh you are right. I missed that part. Yeah I can't imagine a scenario where Maxey does not get the max.

 

[jose melendez]

All the what ifs with the Nets are annoying. You put together a team including Kryrie and Harden and the odds that your season will get sabotaged by injuries and or bullshit is extremely high. It's as much of a known risk as having a turnover machine or some guy who jacks up threes, but shoots them at a low percentage.

 

[astrozombie]

I think this is sort of fair for both sides. Harden was a toxic asset and Morey got something for him which was impressive. Morey also, in a rare move for him, did not get the best player in the deal. Harden is not going to help the Clips win any more. The guys going to Philly probably are going to help, but not enough to convince Embiid to stay.

 

[JakeRae]

All the what ifs with the Nets are annoying. You put together a team including Kryrie and Harden and the odds that your season will get sabotaged by injuries and or bullshit is extremely high. It's as much of a known risk as having a turnover machine or some guy who jacks up threes, but shoots them at a low percentage.

Kyrie had shown us who he was by the time the Nets signed him (and then got so much worse), but I don’t see the point on Harden. Harden’s 5 seasons before the trade to Brooklyn he had played 82, 81, 72, 78, and 68 games. He had 2 of 11 seasons below 70 games and none below 60. His first year in Brooklyn he got the hamstring injury that has plagued him since and feels like a fixture now, but it wasn’t then. Harden had his issues in terms of conditioning and how his game holds up in the playoffs, but health and even reliability weren’t among his flaws.

 

[jose melendez]

Kyrie had shown us who he was by the time the Nets signed him (and then got so much worse), but I don’t see the point on Harden. Harden’s 5 seasons before the trade to Brooklyn he had played 82, 81, 72, 78, and 68 games. He had 2 of 11 seasons below 70 games and none below 60. His first year in Brooklyn he got the hamstring injury that has plagued him since and feels like a fixture now, but it wasn’t then. Harden had his issues in terms of conditioning and how his game holds up in the playoffs, but health and even reliability weren’t among his flaws.

Didn’t he eat his way out of Houston? Am I misremembering?

 

[Euclis20]

I think this is sort of fair for both sides. Harden was a toxic asset and Morey got something for him which was impressive. Morey also, in a rare move for him, did not get the best player in the deal. Harden is not going to help the Clips win any more. The guys going to Philly probably are going to help, but not enough to convince Embiid to stay.

The real assets here are the draft picks. Philly needs to move them by the trade deadline for a major (all-star level) wing, they can't waste another year of Embiid's prime. There should be some guys available - considering his pending free agency and the helplessness of the Raptors, Siakam should be at the top of the list. Lavine and Ingram are two other interesting options, should their teams struggle. They add someone of that caliber by the trade deadline, and they might have a punchers chance vs Boston or Milwaukee.

 

[luckiestman]

Harden is not going to help the Clips win any more.

I think he is. He is still a good player.

 

[RorschachsMask]

View: https://twitter.com/sreekyshooter/status/1719355620615188868?

 

[luckiestman]

The guy makes 5 million a year and lives in SoCal. Fuck him and his “problems”

 

[DavidTai]

The real assets here are the draft picks. Philly needs to move them by the trade deadline for a major (all-star level) wing, they can't waste another year of Embiid's prime. There should be some guys available - considering his pending free agency and the helplessness of the Raptors, Siakam should be at the top of the list. Lavine and Ingram are two other interesting options, should their teams struggle. They add someone of that caliber by the trade deadline, and they might have a punchers chance vs Boston or Milwaukee.

I dunno, isn't adding Siakam there just adding another guy who needs to play in the paint to be effective? OG Anouby seems like the better fit/play here.

 

[Euclis20]

I dunno, isn't adding Siakam there just adding another guy who needs to play in the paint to be effective? OG Anouby seems like the better fit/play here.

That's a possibility too. OG is a slightly better 3 point shooter and a solidly better defender, but Siakam is a far better overall player (and at this point in year 7 at age 26, there's little chance of OG ever being an all-star level player like Siakam is currently).

Both guys should be available at the right price, and there aren't any perfect fits out there. This is the downside of having your two best players be a giant center who does his best work close to the basket, and a small guard with defensive issues.

(and for the millionth time, Tatum would be THE absolute perfect fit on Philly between Maxey and Embiid. Too bad.)

 

[reggiecleveland]

I do think it's quite possible that Nets team would have won in spite of having Harden and Kyrie's personalities---there has never in the NBA been three scorers of that caliber in their prime on the same team at the same time. I am just not sure anyone could have stopped them, as the role players were also fine.

None of those guys were in their prime though.

 

[j-man]

philly wins this trade for the clip to win they need a ring by 2025 which will not happen


i know this will never happen but the nba needs to contact by 6 teams down to 24 really 22 because i still wouild put vegas seattle in

here who i would contact tor ori no minn utah mem brooklin wash

 

[luckiestman]

philly wins this trade for the clip to win they need a ring by 2025 which will not happen


i know this will never happen but the nba needs to contact by 6 teams down to 24 really 22 because i still wouild put vegas seattle in

here who i would contact tor ori no minn utah mem brooklin wash

I do not agree with this. I think the NBA has more talent now than ever before. I think they could expand easily. I am also higher on the Clips than you are.

The NBA for most of my life was you pretty much know who is going to win and at most it’s four teams that have a shot . I think the last few years has more competitive balance than I ever remember.

 

[Euclis20]

philly wins this trade for the clip to win they need a ring by 2025 which will not happen


i know this will never happen but the nba needs to contact by 6 teams down to 24 really 22 because i still wouild put vegas seattle in

here who i would contact tor ori no minn utah mem brooklin wash

Couldn't disagree with you more on this. There's a ton of talent in the league, especially as the last generation of all-stars continues to remain super effective well into their 30s.