Sounded like you were reading a chapter out of Boras' binder.SeanBerry said:I think it's a terrible deal for the Yankees. However, there is one way this makes a ton of sense for them.
And that's if Ellsbury is Paul Molitor.
I know Molitor was an infielder (mostly) but they actually have pretty similar skill sets and very similar careers up until Age 29. They each had one great season (for Molitor it was 1982) and had many injury plagued seasons and developed a soft reputation.
But this was not the case and Molitor ended up having a 1st ballot HOF career, played until he was 41 years old and is 30th all-time in games played. Basically the guy stopped having weird injuries and wound up leading the league in hits 3 times after he was 34.
Will Ellsbury become Molitor? I doubt it but if he does, the Yankees got a steal.
Cowboys Idiots N Beards said:To me, Ellsbury should have been a franchise player for us, just like Cano should be for them. I hold players who stay with one team thru their career in the highest regard. Look at Brian Roberts & Joe Mauer. I doubt they win one with their teams...
Remagellan said:To me, in sports and in life, there are statue guys and there are dollar guys. Dollar guys will always chase the money, regardless of all other considerations. Statue guys will usually stay put, because they value considerations beyond getting every last dollar. I always use the last two Patriots coaches named Bill to illustrate the difference. Parcells was a dollar guy. He grew up a Giants fan, but that didn't stop him from chasing a bigger paycheck at every opportunity. After his first Super Bowl win, he was in negotiations to leave the team o join the Falcons. Then after his second Super Bowl win, and shortly after "retiring" for health reasons, he was off to Tampa Bay, but it turned out those health reasons got in the way. And if you could believe it, after his next Super Bowl appearance, he was even in negotiations to leave the team he had taken to the Super Bowl during the week he was supposed to be getting them ready for the big game, because Dollar Bill was never one to pass up an opportunity to cash in.
Belichick is a statue guy. I bet if he had the chance, he would have stayed at Cleveland until they put up a statue of him outside the stadium to honor him for the multiple Super Bowls he would have won for the Browns. You never hear talk of him leaving the Patriots unless it's speculation about when he might retire. There's no question that there's a hoodie wearing statue coming to Gillette not long after Belichick hangs up his for good.
Of course, Kraft has always paid him one of the highest salaries in the NFL, and he has the best QB in the league, so why would he leave?
Ellsbury leaving for the MFYs might mean he's not a statue guy, but I'm not going to judge him too harshly because he wasn't getting anything close to what they offered him from the Sox, and even for the most loyal, there are limits. That love has to go both ways, or it goes away. I just hope for us and for the MFYs, this turns out to be our version of Pujols leaving the Cardinals for the Angels. That deal worked out really well for one of those teams.
Doug Beerabelli said:It's different, but would your perspective change if Jacoby donated the extra 30 million to Native American Charities and causes? My point being its really not for us to decide how much is "enough." I'd rather JE have it than it staying in Hank and Hal's pockets.
Philip Jeff Frye said:Interesting that the MFYs are willing to back up the truck for Ellsbury but happy to play hardball with Cano. If I were Cano, I'd be so pissed right now that I'd run out and sign whatever the best deal I've got right now from somebody else. Cano is a better player than Ellsbury - aren't the Yankees at best treading water if the sign Ellsbury but lose Cano?
But the conclusions are consistent with what we've observed: the best players in baseball used to hit free agency in their primes more frequently than they do today. ...
SeanBerry said:
Will Ellsbury become Molitor? I doubt it but if he does, the Yankees got a steal.
glennhoffmania said:
And everyone thought that the Crawford deal was awful, so using it as a baseline isn't helping your argument.
ookami7m said:
To all of you who make the argument that a player should stick by his team and do the best there, I give you Ray Bourque/Junior Seau/Ray Allen just from recent Boston Sports history. Obviously the differences are that their previous teams had varying ability to compete where the Sox are the defending champs, but the motivation to get the most money or the motivation to get that ring are for the player alone. No reason to hate in either direction, but be consistent at least.
Except the 150m mean almost nothing to the Yankees. It is a nice way to rationalize what happens, but the for the Yankees money is never a problem. If Ellsbury was their player and they wanted to keep him they would. The So wanted to keep him, but not at his price. If Cano was to leave a Yankee fan could make the same argument. But they can keep him at almost any price if they so desire. In isolation you can feel good we got value for Ellsbury, but the fact is we would like his in CF next year, but he will be in NY because they have way more money . I would not mind being the fan of ateam that could always keep the players they develoop and simply eat the declining years.dirtynine said:So the Sox paid about $20m for Ellsbury, ages 23-29, and the Yankees will pay a bit more than $150m for ages 30-37. I'm pretty happy with being a fan of the first team.
reggiecleveland said:I want my team to win. I don't cheer for the WAR/$ championship.
This isn't actually correct because players pay tax in every state in which they are present during the course of a year. Ellsbury may not even end up being a NY resident depending on where he spends his free time.FFCI said:Not sure where to put this and it doesn't flow in perfectly to the current conversation - but looking at how much more Jacoby got from the Yankees than the suggested offer from the Red Sox has been discussed many posts ago, and this may be something that should be discussed a bit further...
First, assuming the Red sox offered 6 years $120/million = $20 million per year
Yankees 7/153 (or 8/169); 21.85 million per year; or 21.125 million per year
The annual difference in the deal is not the 1.85 or 1.25 million more per year because NY State has approximately a 9% income tax rate and NY City has a 3.6% Income tax rate - versus the MA Income Tax rate of 5.25% - so he's looking at paying approximately 7% more in taxes annually...
So if the Yankees annual salary of 21.85 is reduced by the marginally higher taxes of 7% - the comparative salary with Boston's offer is 20,320,500.
So congrats Jacoby, you'll make an additional $320,500 annually for the next 6 years (not really as that doesn't factor the income taxes (federal and state) and agent's fees, etc. that will reduce that difference).
Sure Boras does a great job getting the headlines and ego stroke of the "Huge" deal - but the net deal was probably not the best one out there for him.
(The no trade clause gives extra control to Ellsbury, but very limited, because if the Yankees ever wanted to move him and he doesn't waive his no trade clause, that will definitely be leaked in the media and it will get ugly).
So really, the deal that "forced" Ellsbury to sign has to be the extra two years. Interesting that the "security" of having those two years covered was valuable to him today but that security was not valuable prior to hitting free agency, prior to having a $100 million guaranteed in the bank...
Anyhow, It's awesome that there are players out there like Pedroia (and maybe I'm wrong) that want a "fair deal" but don't seem to care about squeezing every last buck they can get, that they just want to compete, want to win and want to be part of an organization. I would have loved it if Ellsbury was that kind of guy, but since he's not - I'm not going to find it hard to root for a rapid decline especially that he's now part of the Yankees (who my personal hatred for was waning)....
reggiecleveland said:Except the 150m mean almost nothing to the Yankees. It is a nice way to rationalize what happens, but the for the Yankees money is never a problem. If Ellsbury was their player and they wanted to keep him they would. The So wanted to keep him, but not at his price. If Cano was to leave a Yankee fan could make the same argument. But they can keep him at almost any price if they so desire. In isolation you can feel good we got value for Ellsbury, but the fact is we would like his in CF next year, but he will be in NY because they have way more money . I would not mind being the fan of ateam that could always keep the players they develoop and simply eat the declining years.
I want my team to win. I don't cheer for the WAR/$ championship.
Bone Chips said:Mike Francesa on the air. Calling this a "horrible contract". He's a "nice player". "Boras fleeced the Yankees". Thinks this means Gardner is gone now and forces Cano contract upwards of $200 million. He absolutely hates the deal. Poor Mike looks like he's about to blow a gasket.
Paradigm said:Not surprised he left nor that he was paid this much considering how frothy the free agent market was. I suspected the Sox wanted to keep him because they recognize how talented he is and what his best seasons, and I figured they'd go to $120-130m or so. I knew he'd be overpaid, but I didn't know he'd get his much. But we have to throw out everything we thought we knew about the free agent market.
Great player that had the potential to be a "face of the franchise" kind of guy but never quite got there. That kind of leadership and "brand value" may have encouraged the Red Sox to spend more on him but those qualities never really materialized, at least not in a public-facing way.
curly2 said:If you were Cano, you wouldn't run. You would jog – barely.
Exactly how I'm viewing the situation. But, still, I'm going to miss seeing Jacoby play every day for the home town team.Sprowl said:Ellsbury's departure was expected, although the destination is a disappointment and the Yankees didn't overpay by the amount I would have hoped. The only way in which this would become a disaster would be if the Red Sox were to react by pursuing Cano, Choo, Granderson or any of the other overvalued free agents left on the market.
Stick to the value discipline and multi-year perspective, build around cost-controlled young players, fill in the gaps with short-term veterans, stockpile draft choices, and count on deep depth to keep the Red Sox competitive for 162 games.
Perfectly stated. This is the formula for success in the post steroid era and I hope the Sox stay the course and remain disciplined. I think they will.Sprowl said:Ellsbury's departure was expected, although the destination is a disappointment and the Yankees didn't overpay by the amount I would have hoped. The only way in which this would become a disaster would be if the Red Sox were to react by pursuing Cano, Choo, Granderson or any of the other overvalued free agents left on the market.
Stick to the value discipline and multi-year perspective, build around cost-controlled young players, fill in the gaps with short-term veterans, stockpile draft choices, and count on deep depth to keep the Red Sox competitive for 162 games.
A lot of teams probably go years without a guy that will take it upon himself grab hold of the whole team and say we're going to GDMF do this! Ortiz, Hunter Pence in the playoffs last year, who else? I don't remember any publicized such Jeter events, for example. Even Pedroia, albeit an outspoken team leader, doesn't quite seem to have the moxie to do that. Jacoby, definitely not. Jacoby was a keep his nose to the grindstone, keep himself is the best shape possible guy who happened to have two bad injuries (three?), and went through some personal hell, maybe even from a teammate (Youkiilis). I'm gonna miss the guy a lot and just hope JBJ can pick up a lot of Jacoby's contributions.Otis Foster said:
Agreed - he just wasn't that kind of guy. Not an attack on him - the same applies to lots of others - but I can't imagine Jacoby calling the team together in the dugout, after the 3rd inning.
Or it could be that they believe that's his value to this team.BCsMightyJoeYoung said:According to Ken Davidoff the Sox were only offering 5/80
https://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/status/408290612140859392
If this was true then the whole "wanting Ellsbury back" thing was strictly PR. There's no way the Sox would have realistically believed that that offer would entice him back. I'm guessing they were hoping he would have no serious suitors and only wanted him back on short money/years - which , considering the presence of Bradley, was certainly a reasonable position.
BCsMightyJoeYoung said:According to Ken Davidoff the Sox were only offering 5/80
https://twitter.com/KenDavidoff/status/408290612140859392
If this was true then the whole "wanting Ellsbury back" thing was strictly PR. There's no way the Sox would have realistically believed that that offer would entice him back. I'm guessing they were hoping he would have no serious suitors and only wanted him back on short money/years - which , considering the presence of Bradley, was certainly a reasonable position.
That's right. You have to consider the entire Gestalt of the team's contracts. You really can't give Ellsbury $20m per and not expect a whole lot of pushback and repercussions from the other players. They seem to be looking for players who value winning a championship even though it might mean they leave a few bucks on the table in the interests of fielding a truly competitive team. And they certainly aren't looking to have the most expensive players at too many positions (Ortiz at DH might be the only one and that's as it should be) as that probably would mean cutting costs by going too cheap at others. It's a juggling act that they were masterful at regarding the 2013 team. There was no way Ellsbury's situation was going to work out in this regard unless Ellsbury decided to walk away from about $75 million.Rudy Pemberton said:
I think you also have to consider the team dynamic at play here. They've got the face of the franchise, Pedroia, making ~$14M a year for the next 8 years. Granted it was an extension signed mid-season, with several years left on his deal; so offering Ellsbury a higher AAV makes sense. But I don't think they are going to suddenly offer him 50% more than they are paying Dustin. Maybe this kind of stuff doesn't matter, but it seems like there's a philosophy they've got and if the player doesn't buy in and is dead set on maximizing his payout, he's not going to come back; the Sox aren't often going to be the highest bidder. Think the same thing will happen with Lester, if he wants to set the market he's gone.
C4CRVT said:Or it could be that they believe that's his value to this team.
C4CRVT said:Or it could be that they believe that's his value to this team.
glennhoffmania said:This isn't actually correct because players pay tax in every state in which they are present during the course of a year. Ellsbury may not even end up being a NY resident depending on where he spends his free time.
This is the key thing. I've been debating with a Yankee fan since last night and we're talking past each other. I keep saying how happy I am Boston didn't give him this deal. He keeps saying how much better NY is now that the deal is done. Unless they still have delusions about staying under the cap, this deal means nothing to NY's future spending. I don't mind it at all, especially when my team has won three WS in the last decade. But it's annoying when Yankee fans can't take a step back and realize that they're looking at things from a very different perspective.
johnnywayback said:
Or they could have been negotiating. I'm sure if Boras had come back and said, "No dice, but make it 5/100 and we're getting somewhere," they'd have been happy to have that conversation.
This really sums it up best.Sprowl said:Ellsbury's departure was expected, although the destination is a disappointment and the Yankees didn't overpay by the amount I would have hoped. The only way in which this would become a disaster would be if the Red Sox were to react by pursuing Cano, Choo, Granderson or any of the other overvalued free agents left on the market.
Stick to the value discipline and multi-year perspective, build around cost-controlled young players, fill in the gaps with short-term veterans, stockpile draft choices, and count on deep depth to keep the Red Sox competitive for 162 games.
Bone Chips said:Mike Francesa on the air. Calling this a "horrible contract". He's a "nice player". "Boras fleeced the Yankees". Thinks this means Gardner is gone now and forces Cano contract upwards of $200 million. He absolutely hates the deal. Poor Mike looks like he's about to blow a gasket.
FFCI said:
First, I am not a CPA, but I understand that states (and countries) are now taxing players for the income they make attributable to where they play - whether they are residents or not. So with Ellsbury playing 81 games in NYC - that portion of his salary will be subject to higher taxes.
There are definitely SOSH members that have more knowledge on this than I do, my point is/was that although the numbers sound great - they have to be higher in NYC to be equal to numbers elsewhere....
Sprowl said:Ellsbury's departure was expected, although the destination is a disappointment and the Yankees didn't overpay by the amount I would have hoped. The only way in which this would become a disaster would be if the Red Sox were to react by pursuing Cano, Choo, Granderson or any of the other overvalued free agents left on the market.
Stick to the value discipline and multi-year perspective, build around cost-controlled young players, fill in the gaps with short-term veterans, stockpile draft choices, and count on deep depth to keep the Red Sox competitive for 162 games.
There are two ways this signing is less painful than it might have been. 1) The Red Sox just won the World Series and 2)Jacoby Ellsbury helped them do it. If a small-market team could only win next year, it would be very satisfying, filling in the time the Sox need to get their youngsters up to speed.geoduck no quahog said:
And the way this becomes sweet is (assuming the Red Sox come back to earth next year) when the small market Royals win the pennant based on low payroll and great farm system, beating out the pitching-starved Yankees.
Andrew said:I don't think this is necessarily bad for the Yankees. It will be great for them for at least a few season, and possible he'll be 'worth' the contract. Even if he isn't the Yankees have shown that it doesn't matter that much to them because they have the resources to replace players.
On the flip side - I'm not that upset for the Red Sox angle either. We're not the Yankees - the dollars do matter to us - and that contract would end up being an albatross in Boston. We have an exception prospect in Jackie Bradley Jr ready to fill in. We were never banking on keeping Jacoby. The team is worse off without him, but that was nearly an inevitability that they've been planning on for a while.
It sucks from an emotional 'he was our guy, now he's their guy' perspective, but it's probably a deal that works out for everyone in the end.
glennhoffmania said:
If you're a NY resident, which means you spent more than 183 days in NY during the year, you're taxed on all of your income but you get credits for taxes paid in other states. Since NY has a fairly high top marginal rate, you basically end up paying tax at the NY rate on all of your income.
If you're not a NY resident you only pay NY tax on the portion of your income earned while in NY.
All I was trying to say was that your math was way too simplistic and not very accurate, despite the fact that guys who play half of their games in NY will obviously pay more tax than guys who play half of their games in FL, all other things being equal. You can't simply compare the MA and NY rates and calculate the difference on 20m of income.
Alex Castellanos and Burke Badenhop.....plus Alex Hassan waiting in the wings.....I'd say 5% isn't enough!Plympton91 said:
If they've been planning for it, what steps are planned to offset the loss in 2014? They did just raise ticket prices by 5%; typically you get a better product when the price goes up, not a worse one.