Is it time to move on from BB?

[tims4wins]

Yes, I know we have had multiple iterations of this thread. But on the field, the silly mistakes keep happening week after week. Off the field (i.e., the GM role), he seems incapable of building a modern NFL offense.

I’m not sure I am ready to mutually part ways. But this season is shaping up as potentially the worst of the post-Brady era, and it the future doesn’t look particularly bright. What talent is there to dream on besides Gonzalez? And of course now he is hurt, and plays on the side of the ball where most of us don’t really worry about anything when it comes to either buying the groceries or cooking the meal.

 

[Red Averages]

Name someone better and we can have an actual discussion. Without that this is just complaining. I also think your evaluation of “the talent” is quite limited if you think it’s only Gonzalez.

 

[mostman]

No. He’s earned the right to coach here until he decides not to.

Now, let’s talk about who gets to pick the groceries. Especially the ones on offense.

 

[j-man]

sadly it is time because u dont want to turn into denver who has said no to a rebuild since 2017

 

[Ralphwiggum]

I just don’t know how to answer this question anymore. He’s the GOAT, without question. And I mostly think he’s earned the right to decide when he’s done. And there aren’t a lot of guys on the planet who can coach an NFL team successfully, and chances are whoever they pick to replace him won’t be as good as him.

But fuck if they don’t look like every poorly coached team Bill spent 20 years killing week after week.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

The Patriots opened the 2019 season 8-0. Since then, they are 30-32 over 62 games.

With them playing Dallas today it occurred to me that recent Pats history has a very late-career Tom Landry vibe. Dallas went 10-6 and won their division in 1985. Then they went 7-9, 7-8, 3-13 and Landry was done.

 

[Bergs]

I believe he is still a world-class chef. But he needs to stop buying the groceries.

 

[pappymojo]

No. This past years draft looks like it was great. At least give him one more draft/off season to fix the offense. Defense looks great.

 

[j-man]

and if u do not after this season then it's only because mr kraft wants bill to break the record in 2025 for his team

i know it wouild be a tough day but next offseason u have 120 mil in cap space to better your team

here is the proof https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

 

[Salem's Lot]

I believe he is still a world-class chef. But he needs to stop buying the groceries.

You can’t have one without the other.

 

[Bergs]

You can’t have one without the other.

I fundamentally disagree. So there.

 

[tims4wins]

You can’t have one without the other.

Therein lies the rub. He’ll be 73 next year. I think they need to find a solution. Maybe one more year as a transition makes sense.

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

I believe he is still a world-class chef. But he needs to stop buying the groceries.

Isn't this the issue? He won't allow that to happen. Burn it to the ground. We have had the best run ever. It's done. They are legitimately terrible. (I'm OK with it...it happens)

 

[jsinger121]

The Patriots opened the 2019 season 8-0. Since then, they are 30-32 over 62 games.

With them playing Dallas today it occurred to me that recent Pats history has a very late-career Tom Landry vibe. Dallas went 10-6 and won their division in 1985. Then they went 7-9, 7-8, 3-13 and Landry was done.

He is Tom Landry now. The game has also passed BB by when you refuse to adapt to getting real skill position players on offense.

 

[j-man]

The Patriots opened the 2019 season 8-0. Since then, they are 30-32 over 62 games.

With them playing Dallas today it occurred to me that recent Pats history has a very late-career Tom Landry vibe. Dallas went 10-6 and won their division in 1985. Then they went 7-9, 7-8, 3-13 and Landry was done.

yeah if they go 6-11 or worse i wouild pull the pulg

 

[GPO Man]

He’s earned the right to do what he wants. I just don’t think he’s attuned to the modern NFL. Would love to see Bill move into an EVP role and let a young mastermind take over, eventually.

 

[Ale Xander]

You can’t have one without the other.

Yup, pretty sure Alain Ducasse, Eric Rupert, Clare Smyth, Thomas Keller etc etc have a final say in their groceries.

 

[gammoseditor]

Frank Smith has been getting a lot of buzz

 

[OurF'ingCity]

I believe he is still a world-class chef. But he needs to stop buying the groceries.

Yeah - he’s a world-class defensive mind but if we’re being honest, Brady papered over a lot of misses when it comes to offensive personnel.

I don’t want Belichick to leave, but think he needs to hire someone (maybe not BOB, who is fine but nothing special) who is a really talented offensive mind and just delegate that side of the ball to that person, including player evaluation.

 

[Bergs]

Isn't this the issue? He won't allow that to happen. Burn it to the ground. We have had the best run ever. It's done. They are legitimately terrible. (I'm OK with it...it happens)

Agreed. But fuck Don Shula into the sun. I'd like to somehow kill two birds with one stone here.

 

[Salem's Lot]

I fundamentally disagree. So there.

He has roster control in his contract.

 

[brandonchristensen]

Let him leave on his own terms.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Does SoSH have authority over NEP head coaches? If yes, I learned something new. If no, there are only a few folks who can decide whether or not to move on from BB and as far as I know, none of the Krafts qualify for membership here.

 

[Bergs]

He has roster control in his contract.

Dude...come on. I know that. Thus the "so there"

 

[Ed Hillel]

This cycle is going to continue until the Pats find a top 10 QB. If you can convince me there’s a better path to finding a top 10 QB than BB, I might get on that train. I guess the team would be worse and could tank, but then you’re starting off with a worse coach. Keep in mind he also built this D and the coaching on that end, including his son, has been really good.

With Mac, I mean I think he did the obvious thing in drafting him. The big fault was wasting a year with Patricia, but either way I think we’ve learned Mac ain’t gonna be the guy. Bill probably has enough in the tank for one more QB run, and I’d say just let him ride it out by drafting Mac’s successor and giving him his finals 3-5 years. Assuming BB even wants to do it.

 

[tims4wins]

Does SoSH have authority over NEP head coaches? If yes, I learned something new. If no, there are only a few folks who can decide whether or not to move on from BB and as far as I know, none of the Krafts qualify for membership here.

We don’t have control over the Sox manager or PBO either. Why even have a message board? Like WTF is the point of your post?

 

[luckiestman]

Send him to the Jets

 

[Ed Hillel]

yeah if they go 6-11 or worse i wouild pull the pulg

An average team could easily go 6-11 with this schedule. With Mac and these injuries, 6 wins or fewer is more likely than not.

 

[The Mort Report]

Isn't this the issue? He won't allow that to happen. Burn it to the ground. We have had the best run ever. It's done. They are legitimately terrible. (I'm OK with it...it happens)

This is where I'm at. The best outcome on paper is bring in someone to make player decisions/draft, let him focus on coaching, but I can't see him going for it here. Maybe if Kraft put a big pile of money on the table, but I still can't see it. As mentioned, how much longer would you reasonably expect him to coach at 73? He probably won't be around when the next couple drafts of players matter, so lets just rip the band aid off

Hell he may even want out and pull a Brady as a HC for hire to bank wins from an already viable team

 

[Beomoose]

We played very close to two very good teams to start the season, won ugly against NYJ, got blown TF out by a team that blows people TF out. I'm not thrilled, not even happy, but nothing is making me think we need to kill Bill. I didn't like him picking Mac, but the two guys I would have taken haven't been amazing either so what do I know?

 

[PC Drunken Friar]

We don’t have control over the Sox manager or PBO either. Why even have a message board? Like WTF is the point of your post?

Wait, we can't vote to fire the HC of the NEP?

 

[The Mort Report]

Does SoSH have authority over NEP head coaches? If yes, I learned something new. If no, there are only a few folks who can decide whether or not to move on from BB and as far as I know, none of the Krafts qualify for membership here.

Sooo then why does this board exist? 99% of posters here have no say in who the Red Sox sign, so if it's up to you we shouldn't talk about it?

 

[Toe Nash]

Yeah, if he would take a back seat in player acquisition and focus on coaching the team someone else assembled (with a reasonable amount of input of course, like any head coach) then sure, you do that. He's a very good head coach still and he might be even better if he could only focus on that. If any other GM had assembled this team, they would be gone. But no one knows if he would do that.

If he won't do that I think you think about firing him at the end of the year. Ultimately BB has a boss just like most of us and I don't think BB is the guy to do a full rebuild which is what the team really needs.

 

[Salva135]

He’s earned the right to do what he wants. I just don’t think he’s attuned to the modern NFL. Would love to see Bill move into an EVP role and let a young mastermind take over, eventually.

This concept is ridiculous. He has earned the right to find a mutually acceptable parting of ways with Kraft and accept a gigantic sum of money to coach another NFL team, which he almost certain would be offered if he hit the open market by perhaps half of the league. But he doesn't have a lifetime contract with the Patriots, or as many season freebies as he needs to catch Shula. Kraft would be insane to think in these terms.

Do you think if BB catches Shula in 2025 after multiple losing seasons we're going to cheer for him?

 

[Ed Hillel]

He is Tom Landry now. The game has also passed BB by when you refuse to adapt to getting real skill position players on offense.

One of the very first things he did post Brady was splurge on skill position players. The major problem is that they largely didn’t pan out and, unfortunately, free agency since Brady at skill positions on offense has been pretty damn weak overall. He hasn’t had much success drafting at them either, but again it’s not really due to a lack of trying. We could debate the effort on the OL, however. That’s an area where there has been opportunity and was passed over. And of course the whole Patricia thing…

 

[Ale Xander]

This concept is ridiculous. He has earned the right to find a mutually acceptable parting of ways with Kraft and accept a gigantic sum of money to coach another NFL team, which he almost certain would be offered if he hit the open market but perhaps half of the league.

I’d rather Pats go 0-85 for the next 5 years than see BB coach another team

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

We don’t have control over the Sox manager or PBO either. Why even have a message board? Like WTF is the point of your post?

My point is that until BBs bosses say he is in danger or gone, this discussion is kind of academic. In my two decades here I'd estimate that some members have wanted BB gone 100% of the time. It was time then too I guess.

Go ahead and discuss but its kind of pointless unless I am missing something.

This loss sucked and this season is bad. I don't think BB is at risk but take your shot. Maybe it works.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Does SoSH have authority over NEP head coaches? If yes, I learned something new. If no, there are only a few folks who can decide whether or not to move on from BB and as far as I know, none of the Krafts qualify for membership here.

Do you have to always do this?

 

[tims4wins]

My point is that until BBs bosses say he is in danger or gone, this discussion is kind of academic. In my two decades here I'd estimate that some members have wanted BB gone 100% of the time. It was time then too I guess.

Go ahead and discuss but its kind of pointless unless I am missing something.

This loss sucked and this season is bad. I don't think BB is at risk but take your shot. Maybe it works.

I think that while we have had this conversation before, I think we generally concluded that it wasn’t yet time.

I was curious if whether this season to date has swayed our collective opinion.

I agree that it is academic.

 

[nattysez]

Kraft and BB should go to the new Washington owners, explain that they need a break from each other, and work out a mutually-agreeable arrangement where BB (and probably his kids and Josh McDaniels, too) moves to Washington with everyone saying all the right things to make the parting amicable.

The Pats can elevate Jerod Mayo to HC, find a GM, and try to put together a workable team before Kraft passes.

There are 31 teams with front offices full of VPs of Pro Player Personnel, Heads of Scouting, etc. I refuse to believe that there is no one in one of those second-banana jobs who could do a better job building a team than BB at age 74. Kraft needs to find one of those guys.

Can I guarantee that the Pats will be better off in 2024 without BB? No. But continuing to do the same thing year after year with these same results is insanity.

 

[Seels]

No. This past years draft looks like it was great. At least give him one more draft/off season to fix the offense. Defense looks great.

But the last half decade's are garbage. I don't think it's time to move on from BB and that the question is pretty silly. But these drafts are unreal. You'd almost get better by just randomly selecting players.


The last good draft they had was 2016. 2018 was -ok-.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Do you have to always do this?

We are having a stomp out feet, cry our eyes moment because the Pats lost a game most rational folks expected them to lose.

Do you honestly think today was the straw for BB in NE? Really?

Or are emotions just raw?

 

[Dogman]

If we are going to have this thread and discussion, as a board can we at least try to put some work into this thread?

Nothing by gamethready posts and emotional venting after a very bad loss but that's really all there is here.

I think almost all of us penciled this as a loss. It was a terrible one, but still just one.

Hopefully this thread gets better quickly.

 

[j-man]

An average team could easily go 6-11 with this schedule. With Mac and these injuries, 6 wins or fewer is more likely than not.

thanks for running this stie

 

[patinorange]

We are having a stomp out feet, cry our eyes moment because the Pats lost a game most rational folks expected them to lose.

Do you honestly think today was the straw for BB in NE? Really?

Or are emotions just raw?

They are on a different planet from the top teams in the NFL. And they have been for a couple of years. Perfectly appropriate to question his future. He's not going anywhere this year, but a 5-12 season or worse may put him on the legit hot seat.
Today was more than a loss.

 

[j-man]

Kraft and BB should go to the new Washington owners, explain that they need a break from each other, and work out a mutually-agreeable arrangement where BB (and probably his kids and Josh McDaniels, too) moves to Washington with everyone saying all the right things to make the parting amicable.

The Pats can elevate Jerod Mayo to HC, find a GM, and try to put together a workable team before Kraft passes.

There are 31 teams with front offices full of VPs of Pro Player Personnel, Heads of Scouting, etc. I refuse to believe that there is no one in one of those second-banana jobs who could do a better job building a team than BB at age 74. Kraft needs to find one of those guys.

Can I guarantee that the Pats will be better off in 2024 without BB? No. But continuing to do the same thing year after year with these same results is insanity.

u are a smart man

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

We are having a stomp out feet, cry our eyes moment because the Pats lost a game most rational folks expected them to lose.

Do you honestly think today was the straw for BB in NE? Really?

Or are emotions just raw?

I mean, people can talk about whatever tf they want as far as I'm concerned. I feel no impetus to gate keep conversations. As for the question of the thread, today was the first day I felt as though I had no faith in the process at hand. I think it's a valid question given that the modern NFL isn't the same as even five years ago and this Pats offense is built for 2006.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

They are on a different planet from the top teams in the NFL. And they have been for a couple of years. Perfectly appropriate to question his future. He's not going anywhere this year, but a 5-12 season or worse may put him on the legit hot seat.
Today was more than a loss.

I disagree that today was more than a loss. They can still make the playoffs and win the Superbowl - in theory, we all know that's extremely unlikely - despite dropping the fourth game of the season in Dallas where they were an underdog. Its just a loss.

 

[Patsfan1983]

I think you give him another season, but i don't give him as long as he wants either. I know its likely ideal to give a new GM/coach all the cap room we have to spend, but with Judon and Gonzalez likely out a while we should have a good pick on on top of that. I don't think i trust anyone other than Bill to handle that.

 

[Hoya81]

and if u do not after this season then it's only because mr kraft wants bill to break the record in 2025 for his team

i know it wouild be a tough day but next offseason u have 120 mil in cap space to better your team

here is the proof https://overthecap.com/salary-cap-space

The challenge is the type of game changing offensive skill players that they desperately need almost never get to free agency anymore. The biggest WR FAs next year are probably Mike Evans, Calvin Ridley and Tee Higgins. Evans would certainly help, but at this point its hard to see top FAs coming here without paying a serious premium. Finding an AJ Brown situation via trade is a possibility but then you've sacrificed draft capital on top of cap room.